Tale Gator
________
chuckm said:
Another remarkable post regarding Vince Young from you chuckm. Congrats.
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Texans to take a closer look at Young
- Thread starter Tale Gator
- Start date
Another remarkable post regarding Vince Young from you chuckm. Congrats.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Texans_Chick said:
Not disputing the main point of your post, but where did you get this part?
Bush 1740 yds this year, 3169 college total vs. Young 1050 this year, 3127 college total.
kbourda
Veteran
Texans_Chick said:
Texans Chic, you make a bunch of sense. Don't you see by now. No matter what Vince does people in here will find fault with it. Them just flat out dissing his talent will look like fools when it is all said and done. Just keep your peace and know that there are people who agree with you (like myself).
El Amigo Invisible
Rookie
I just do not see anything that I do not like about the guy.
He should have stayed in college but he wasn't going to learn anything anyway. I think he needs to go back to school and try for a degree,maybe he could just take some grammer lessons and a speech class .Football players have never been known for being thats smart anyway). What's the problem?
He should have stayed in college but he wasn't going to learn anything anyway. I think he needs to go back to school and try for a degree,maybe he could just take some grammer lessons and a speech class .Football players have never been known for being thats smart anyway). What's the problem?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Texans_Chick said:
well said
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
infantrycak said:
My bad. This is what I get from relying on memory. I was looking at a bunch of 2004 stats, not 2005.
Thanks for the catch.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Nighthawk said:
That is just Bush's rushing yds against Young's rushing yds. Texans Chick said running so that was what I listed.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Texans_Chick said:
No problem. Do you know of any site that lists fumbles for college QB's?
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
chuckm said:
Yeah, that is why he is getting all the national media attention and have all those NFL team reps at his pro day.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Texans_Chick said:
He must be confused with other QB's who won a National Championships, Gino Torretta or Jason White.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Frills said:
Thank you for correcting me. How about 'dem Sooners?
kbourda
Veteran
chuckm said:
Why are his skills "questionable"? Are you of the opinion that he slipped up and got 4,000 yards by accident? Maybe a 1,000 by accident but 4,000! No, I get it, when he got on the field teams just sat on the sideline while the UT offense was there. "Questionable"? Sorry but the only thing questionable thing here is you and the Anti-Vince crowd (you know who you are) spewing your flat out hatred for the man.
chuckm
Veteran
kbourda said:
there you go again with the h-word ..... do we need to discuss our mortgages again? My questions about Young center around him running out of the shotgun for a huge amount of the time .... his game starts with his legs and that's great in the Big12 ... not sure how it'll play in the NFL ...
chuckm
Veteran
kbourda said:
common ground, common ground, ...... it's a beautiful thing ....
I could give a crap what his Wonderlic, 40 time, bench press, blah blah blah are ...
my concern is that he ran a very simple offense and was in many games a "man among boys" .... in the NFL his legs will be negated to a degree and he'll have everything that the best defensive minds in the world can conceive thrown his way ...
my take on this doesn't put me on an island, neither does yours ... we both have plenty of company .... I guess we'll see how the NFL feels about it next month .... I haven't a clue how it'll come out
Nighthawk
Rookie
Apparently the offense wasn't so simple as VY detractors imagine. This is an interesting interview about VY in any case. Clears up some of the usual complaints, half-truths, misunderstandings.
http://www.gotitans.com/artman/publish/article_001362.shtml
http://www.gotitans.com/artman/publish/article_001362.shtml
chuckm
Veteran
Nighthawk said:
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review40.html
The Texas coaches tried to change Vince into more of the prototype quarterback with poor results until midway in the 2004 campaign when they accepted Young's plea to let Vince be Vince. They switched to a read option offense where Young always had the choice to tuck and run. He hasn't lost a game since. To succeed with Young, any offensive coordinator will need to let Vince be Vince rather than attempting to change him into Donovan McNabb or Tom Brady.
Tale Gator
________
Again, that Bob McNair was down there in person to watch Vince perform speaks volumes.
Nighthawk
Rookie
chuckm said:
Sorry I was trying to provide some information you might not have. If you prefer the opinion of the HPF.com guy, have at it.
If I were saying what you're saying in a less biased way I might say the OC will want to take advantage of Vince's extraordinary talents, or maybe, of Vince's talents beyond the usual QB talents.
dirty steve
Veteran
Texans_Chick said:
wow, another person in the Texans front office that posts on this message board, i am glad you have broken away from VY's pro day long enough to grace our presence and tell us what kubes and CC are thinking.
i have never said that VY was an other-worldly talent, and i'll look at that thread all day and can still have the same opinion, that ferguson is the better fit for this team. not a vince hater-it's my opinion.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
Nighthawk said:
It clears up some of the writer's ___. Virtually everything she is asked about consists of opinion, which either you agree with or don't. In my case, still not so much.
Better stop myself before I get labeled a "hater" again.
And as far as the "dumbed down" offense (stop reading if you are already preparing your whining rant about my obvious bias) ... of course the point is to use Vince for Vince. Why put the guy in a pocket-only playbook when he obviously can run, even in the NFL? You'd be stupid to do it. There is nothing wrong with Mack Brown winning game after game letting Vince play whatever offense is going to get the job done. If running flea-flickers every play was what got the job done, then run flea-flickers every play. If Vince is a great athlete who can make big plays with his legs, then let him makes big plays with his legs. That is winning, and any OC worth his salt would know and understand that.
The question is - if it is even possible to address on this board any more without being labeled a "hater" - is whether or not Vince can do some of the things he did so successfully (and easily, for that matter) in the NFL. Defenses will be much more disciplined, coordinated, faster, and will take better pursuit angles. Questions of his management, which can have a dramatic impact on his career, since even Vince Young will leave the clubhouse and deal with things like signing contracts negotiated by someone other than his divine behind. These are the questions that I am asking, and apparently, others with me.
There is no denying Vince can be great. Pretending that there isn't a chance he won't be is just as stupid as these great ignorances the "VY set" (grouped together for convenience) accuse us "homers" of.
chuckm said:
So if we stick David Carr in that simple offense, we can get a winning season?? Brilliant...... forget Young, let's put Carr in a simpler system.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
chuckm said:
Your sig, gets me thinking about him.
dirty steve
Veteran
Texans_Chick said:
i guess said franchises weren't there to see david thomas, rod wright, jon scott, etc...good call.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
dirty steve said:
Whoa bigboy, why's your sarcastometer set on high in my general direction? You must have me mistaken for somebody else. I wish I had some contact with the front office because I'd have better PSLs. I've never stated what kubes and CC are thinking, and have repeatedly stated that I do not think they will choose VY, believe that they will choose Bush, but at the end of the day, you don't know until the draft actually happens.
My post was merely in response to someone who said that the only reason why VY is in the discussion is because he is from Houston and went to Texas. My own pov is that he is in the national discussion because he has done some pretty remarkable things, things that I've never seen a QB of his size do, and the stats say the same thing.
I can understand the reasoning of wanting D'Brick instead of VY for the Texans even though for me personally, would never pick D'Brick #1 in this draft. If they happen to do that, or trade down and get him, I will be his biggest supporter. That being said, I've given stats that demonstrate that VY's stats are in historical elite college QB territory and has done stuff that other college QBs could only dream of, and in response all you offered me was a blast of sarcasm and nuthin.
You know, it is completely OK to think that all of these elite guys in the draft are pretty darned good without feeling the need to blast them in order to support your guy. If you think other people are overhyping a particular individual, it is quite possible to make your point using facts and logic and reasoning without exaggerating the other direction.
Some of my favorite posters to read on the MB are people whose opinion on the draft and the players are different than mine and make their opinion whilst showing how they came to that conclusion.
I am not a stat freak by any stretch of the imagination, but I looked up the comparison information on VY and on Bush to various names that people kept carelessly throwing around as comparisons. Because I wanted to know if my eyes were tricking me. I wanted to have a better truth than some guy saying that VY was like this, or Bush was like that. Stats can't tell a whole story but they are a start.
After I did that, I realized that a lot of those comparisons were not supportable statistically. (Such as VY=Vick or VY=Akili Smith--such garbage).
My eyes told me that VY and Bush were not like other players I have seen, and I looked up stats for the comparisons, and the stats were telling me the same thing. And I was actually LOOKING for someone to come up with a grand argument for why VY isn't gonna work in the NFL, and haven't really seen a good argument. Because I am pretty darned sure the Texans aren't gonna take him, and wanted to know how bummed I should be if one of my most hated teams took him.
So there you have it. I'm in the "please Texans do your durned homework and make a good decision cuz I don't do film and prodays camp." I don't know what is the best decision, but I am always looking for reasons to be happy with and understand the decisions that they have made. I have a lot of empathy for the folks in the front office and coaching staff because they work really hard at doing something that you can work really hard at doing and still fail.
Sorry about the long response but I really am searching for truth amidst the posturing and rhetoric. I don't feel comfortable with the hyperbole in any direction, but if it can be supported by the facts as humans can know them, well then, bring it on.
sprtsfanatic
Veteran
and lets not forget who's defense young did that damage against...it was a former NFL coach with a team stacked with future NFL players...so I think the arguement about young not being able to do anything vs NFL teams is quite bogus imo.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
dirty steve said:
C'mon now, you are not being reasonable.
Read the write up on the day: http://nfl.com/draft/story/9329030. I like these other guys OK, but the other guys were lagniappe for the main course of VY. You don't get that sort of attendance unless VY is finally going to throw.
El Amigo Invisible
Rookie
Amen Brother! Preach on! I like Carr Bomber too ! Maybe they could learn something from each other.
I just thought it was a gimme and we would help ourselves through the FA market.
I just thought it was a gimme and we would help ourselves through the FA market.
Tale Gator
________
Reactions from the Texans' entourage:
__________
"One of the things that impresses me about him is the way his teammates gravitate to him, which I think is important for a player at that position," Kubiak said.
"He did a great job," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "I was real impressed. He showed a very strong arm, and he was accurate on the move. He looked like he could have thrown all day. He made every throw. He did everything you could ask a guy to do in this situation."
"I was impressed, but I wasn't surprised because we already knew Vince was a great athlete," Texans owner Bob McNair said. "He showed a super arm. He was really accurate. He put the ball on the numbers. He was accurate throwing on the run, and he didn't have to break stride. It was a great performance."
"Rhome did a good job with him, which I fully expected him to do," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said. "He threw the ball well, and his footwork was good."
Houston Chronicle
__________
"One of the things that impresses me about him is the way his teammates gravitate to him, which I think is important for a player at that position," Kubiak said.
"He did a great job," Texans coach Gary Kubiak said. "I was real impressed. He showed a very strong arm, and he was accurate on the move. He looked like he could have thrown all day. He made every throw. He did everything you could ask a guy to do in this situation."
"I was impressed, but I wasn't surprised because we already knew Vince was a great athlete," Texans owner Bob McNair said. "He showed a super arm. He was really accurate. He put the ball on the numbers. He was accurate throwing on the run, and he didn't have to break stride. It was a great performance."
"Rhome did a good job with him, which I fully expected him to do," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said. "He threw the ball well, and his footwork was good."
Houston Chronicle
Mike Kerns
LYSB Podcast
I wish him the best, wherever he may land.
You are correct...... the interview was prefaced with an explanation of why her opinion is credible... I don't think they were good reason, but they were what they were. Kubiak has expressed his opinion of David Carr.... granted it should hold more weight than hers, but I can understand with folks disagreeing with him... We all have experiences that we base our judgement of players on. You have your opinion of Milford Brown, Denny Green has his.... is his more correct than yours?? I doubt it, you sound like you know what you are talking about. But he's privy to information that you're not, same as the person interviewed in this article. He has access to Milford, you(I'm assuming does not). She's been face to face with Vince, his teammates, his coaches.... again, I assume you have not.jerek said:
ONce a Hater, always a hater.jerek said:
I don't even have salt, so I'll go anyway. I've said before(on this MB) that if we are going to put together an Offense to "let Vince be Vince", then I'd rather not draft him. I don't care how many NFC championship games the Falcons get to. If it were that simple in the NFL, more folks would be doing it. This is a team game, and every piece of that team has a job. For that team to be successful, each part has to do that job. QBs have to be QBs. LTs have to be LTs.. Safeties have to be Safeties, and Running Backs need to be Running Backs...jerek said:
The offensive production Vince gets out of his legs do not impress me, as much as what that opens up. What impressed me most about Vince, is the improvement he's made in his game from the 2004 RoseBowl, to the 2005 RoseBowl. No one expected him to repeat what he did in 2004, much less show marked improvement. He took it upon himself to work on his game. And he did very well.
My assessment of Vince, is that he is on route to being like McNabb, only better. He'll be starting his NFL career from a stage that is more advanced than where McNabb started his. He also won't be the offense in Houston, where McNabb still has no stars around him........... oh yeah, I guess you can count Westbrook.... I guess.
Edit: One more thing. If our team was polished, and had more veterans..... I wouldn't be looking at Vince Young. I might be more inclined to go with Matt Lienart. But with our Young Offensive line, we are better off with more mobile/athletic QBs..... Until we've got a line, where we've got that one or two players that can compensate for the younger/poorer players, we need someone who can help the offensive line, by avoiding sacks, and keeping plays alive. When the front 5 have learned to play their positions, and are able to protect their qB, you don't need a pocket passer.....
This is the same argument I used for Quincy in Dallas. after 2003, the Cowboys were in no position to draft a qB, and there were no young prospects available in FA you could consider to be the future. Quincy would have bought them time to allow the OL to learn to work together, and still give them an opportunity to win games. The Only difference here, is that Vince I think has the potential to be ther future, where I didn't see that in Q
& this is why you are a hater. Yes, these are legitamate questions. Yet they only apply to a QB, and then only to Vince. Matt's game will transfer over, no problem. Doesn't matter that NFL Corners are faster (recovery speed) than the fastest Corner's he's seen. LBs are smarter, craftier, and more athletic....... better in coverage than before, and there are very few Offensive lines in the league today that will give him the protection he's accustomed to.jerek said:
All those angles, better tackling, better pursuit, and plain ol coverage is going to affect Reggies Game just as much, maybe even more.... if his break away speed is his ticket to fame, it doesn't even come into play, till he gets behind the defense..... something that is also not as easy to do in the NFL.
There are very few of us on this MB, that would trade/cut Carr right away. We understand we still need him next year.jerek said:
YoungnotBush
Noob
tulexan said:
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
YoungnotBush said:
Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You've made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're just stalling now.
Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?
Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha -
Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.
Classic.
kcwilson
Rookie
I think the title of the thread was mis-labeled... it ought to read
"Texans expressing fake interest in person from the community and building him up as a potential pick in order to increase the trade value of the top draft pick because we are obviously taking Bush and therefore all the QB needy teams won't trade with us if they know that they can have the Saints spot for less because we aren't taking a QB."
"Texans expressing fake interest in person from the community and building him up as a potential pick in order to increase the trade value of the top draft pick because we are obviously taking Bush and therefore all the QB needy teams won't trade with us if they know that they can have the Saints spot for less because we aren't taking a QB."
Long-Spurs-Texan
Waterboy
You speak the truth. Much respect.
thunderkyss said:
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
You are making a big deal out of a little thing here. The article didn't go into great detail about anything for which being "face to face" with Vince Young is relevant. I don't have to meet the guy to watch him run an entire playbook out of shotgun, run options, throw the occasionally awkward floaters, play behind an all-world line, or watch defenses take ridiculously awkward pursuit angles and 170 lb. froshes slip on the tackle.
If we were talking about, would I want Vince Young to date my daughter? ... then maybe the writer can provide me a character reference that I lack. As far as Vince having this "it" and casting a spell over the writer and an unhealthy percentage of this board ... not relevant where I'm standing, my friend. Now, has she watched more of Vince's tape/games? Probably so. Do I trust her an Austin writer to give me the "unslanted" view of Vince Young? Probably not.
thunderkyss said:
I can agree with all of that.
thunderkyss said:
I can understand and empathize with this take. That said, we have DC, and we just signed him to a hefty chunk of change. I believe Kubes/Sherman are going to make our line better, install a real offense (you cannot in any seriousness tell me that Vince would have played any better for Pendry), and that David Carr is going to shine in that offense, or at least play well enough to win games. That fact, plus our multitude of glaring holes, indicates that we simply do not have the luxury of pissing away 55M and our first round pick on a position that we are already solid in. That more than anything else is what drives my decision to pass on Young.
thunderkyss said:
No one is kicking up an eternal ****storm about the invincible Matt Leinart. No one has even mentioned his name as a legitimate candidate. If we are so desperate to replace our QB, why not Leinart or Cutler? Why not talk about Cutler's rocket arm or Leinart's poise and ridiculous winning tradition. Yes, USC's offense was heralded as one of the best of all time, but it's not as if UT's wasn't good. UT had one of the very best recruiting classes and was a very strong offensive unit, so do not pretend as if there is some large difference between Leinart's supporting cast and Vince's. IMO, Mack Brown outcoached Carroll, straight up, and that game was only won by a whole 3 points.
Most of the cries for Vince on this board and in this community (and they are substantially here and not elsewhere: you will not hear much of Vince outside of this half of the state) are personal player/fan/UT agendas and have little to do with 'the best quarterback for the Texans.' Young is not by any stretch the consensus BPA.
thunderkyss said:
When did I disagree with this? Okay, I know the draft-Reggie crowd has its own contingent of REGGIE IS GOD!!!1, but you are getting lost here.
Conclusion: we do not draft Young because we are already solid at QB, we don't have 55M in free cap for a project QB, and because we have too many other holes to fill to become a winning team. Disagree with if you want, but understand my argument for what it is.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
And I should tag on to the end of that ... fan agendas are well and good. If you like Vince and just want to see him a Texan, cool. I am not going to argue you if that is simply your take. Guys like kbhourda said it earlier: they just like Vince and they like the Houston Texans and would love to see the two combined and want to see him continue his career in Houston and they enjoy watching him play. To which I say:
Fine, that is well and good. You'll get no argument from me.
Just don't be the "fan with the agenda" and talk about Vince's skill sets and what he is as a player and how that makes him such and such and expect that no one could or will possibly contest the opinions.
Fine, that is well and good. You'll get no argument from me.
Just don't be the "fan with the agenda" and talk about Vince's skill sets and what he is as a player and how that makes him such and such and expect that no one could or will possibly contest the opinions.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
Yeah it says he wants some fool to part with two ones and two twoes for the one pick....so far no takers. THAT speaks volumns in my book on RB and VY.Tale Gator said:
MorKnolle
All Pro
Turp007 said:
Nothing that the Texans are doing looks like they are trying to trade down to draft Vince. The UT pro day did little to advance Vince into being considered as the top one or even two QBs in this draft, let alone the best overall player. Bush will run a 4.55? Bush is clearly faster than that. Another ridiculous post and a last-ditch effort to stir up some hope for Vince becoming a Texan.
As for the previous comment on McNair being at Vince's pro day, why wouldn't he go when it's a three hour drive away and UT always runs the best pro day in terms of taking care of the scouts and whoever else comes and attends, and as McNair said when interviewed about it "there are a lot of fine prospects here that we want to check out" (I realize this part of the interview conveniently got left off many reports in Houston, but ESPN had it).