chuckm said:
Have you ever used KY??
Then you know what all the fuss is about.
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Texans' rejection still was surprise for Young
- Thread starter Mike Kerns
- Start date
Have you ever used KY??
Then you know what all the fuss is about.
Frills
Waterboy
thunderkyss said:
I think part of it is they also don't have a ton of UT fans buying ads, hyping him up 24/7. If Rich Lord was a Nashville talking head, the locals would get annoyed eventually. I'd be willing to bet that 25%-35% of the anti VY camp don't have anything against him as a player, but are polarized by the UT fans onslaught of hype.
HomeBred_Texan
Veteran
It's been said that if Tenn takes Vince, that it will set there franchise back 5 years...
I can understand VY's disappointment, but I don't understand why he's surprised. I wonder what was ever said to VY that would make him think the Texans would pick him at #1. I doubt this was a Rashard Lewis situation where the people within the Rockets organization gave him the impression that they would pick him with one of their 3 picks......
Regardless, of what anyone thinks of Carr, he was still a #1 pick himself only 4 years ago, and the Texans forked over another $8 mill to keep him. After that I never could see them picking a QB in the 1st round this year, much less with the #1 pick.
I like VY, but I have never been sold that in this draft he was worthy of being the #1 overall pick. Within the top 10-12, yes....
I can't wait to see VY in the NFL though.
Regardless, of what anyone thinks of Carr, he was still a #1 pick himself only 4 years ago, and the Texans forked over another $8 mill to keep him. After that I never could see them picking a QB in the 1st round this year, much less with the #1 pick.
I like VY, but I have never been sold that in this draft he was worthy of being the #1 overall pick. Within the top 10-12, yes....
I can't wait to see VY in the NFL though.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
HomeBred_Texan said:
Anyone can say anything, and therefore it has been said...
So what?
TexasDiehard
Practice Squad
Chicagotexan1 said:
Your right about only one thing. It doesn't matter where VY is from. If he was from Florida or the moon he would still be the only outstanding, once in a lifetime athlete and leader in this draft and the best option for the Texans if they had a clue. Validation of your position by people who have botched almost every draft call for the last 4 years could not be more meaningless. My two year old could have made better draft calls than the Texans. The fact that that VY happens to be from Houston and UT only matters to the extent that it adds emphasis to the sad reality that the Texans will remain irrelevant losers until ownership changes. Not only is VY the best player available by far, he would have been a bonanza to an irrelevant franchise that hasn't won the hearts of anyone and has disappointed everyone. These guys are clearly the dumbest of the dumb. Houston deserves a lot better.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
TexasDiehard said:
Originally Posted by Frills
I think part of it is they also don't have a ton of UT fans buying ads, hyping him up 24/7. If Rich Lord was a Nashville talking head, the locals would get annoyed eventually. I'd be willing to bet that 25%-35% of the anti VY camp don't have anything against him as a player, but are polarized by the UT fans onslaught of hype.
Originally Posted by Jerek
Somebody get this man his prize. And I would put the number at closer to 50%.
Jerek......you can now make that 51%
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
TexasDiehard said:
A once in a lifetime player wouldn't be projected to slide in the draft like VY might. He would be the clear cut #1 if he was a once in a lifetime player. Teams would be offering the moon for the chance to take him at the top. But they are not, and that is the reality of it all. And Ron Wolf said he's the next MJ of football. Wolf, shut the ** up. NO ONE knew MJ the prospect would be MJ the PRO. Please,,,, anyone can say that they could have made better decisions after the fact. That's a silly statement. I bet you would have drafted Brady over Pennington, Gerrald Warren or Richard Seymour, Portis or Pitts, McNabb over Couch. Then tell me Genious, why are you not heading up an NFL team? Better yet why aren't you and your 2 yr old the best 1-2 punch in the front office? That's because you don't really know jack and neither do I. It's all a gamble, anyone may be a boom or bust for a variety of reasons. So why not go with the player that is considered (at least by those know-nothing GM and pro-scouts) the best rated prospect?
HomeBred_Texan said:
IT was probably that Merrill Hodge, who'd take any runningback over any quarterback anyday.
cuppacoffee said:
Jerek......you can now make that 51%
do you look at the Pro-Reggie stuff the same way??
This board has no problem comparing Reggie to Gayle Sayers, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders etc...... etc...
But you call foul when Vince is compared to John Elway(by Dan Reeves no less) or McNabb, or Culpepper....
It's not appropriate to compare Mario Williams to Julius Peppers, much less Reggie White, or Bruce Smith.
Chicagotexan1 said:
Had they not extended Carr's contract, do you think Vince's stock would be "sliding"?? The only reason it's slid, is because teams have been adding QBs, or extending QBs to their roster. It has nothing to do with the prospect that is Vince Young. GreenBay has been rumored to be interested in selectinig Vince, even though they got their man Aaron(sp) Rodgers last year. Matt Lienarts stock has "slid" due to the same issues as Vince's...... does that mean Matt is a worse prospect than he was 1 month ago, or last year even, when he would've been a lock at #1??
Then according to your logic, Reggie is not worth the #1, as Casserly said there has been no interest to trade up to the #1 spot, for Mario, or Bush. He didn't say no "acceptable" offers have been fielded, but that there are no offers, no interest, none, nada zip.......... nobody else thinks he is worthy of the pick. Nobody that runs an NFL team anyway.
non natural texan
Noob
Boo fu. k. n whoo.
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
thunderkyss said:
The Packers are not interseted in Vince. Former GM Ron Wolf said VY is the next VY of football not the Packers. And not every team is set at QB. And even if they are, how can they live with themselves knowing that they had passed up on "a once in a lifetime player"? Maybe because most teams feel he is not?
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
TK, of course the RB camp has done their share of illiterate mud flinging. And agreed, VY sliding has more to do with free agent QB acquisitions and there simpy being less need for QB early in the draft.
That said, Mario Williams most definitely compares to Julius Peppers/Reggie White and probably more readily than VY to Elway. Let's not forget that the DE position is more about raw athletic ability and heart than anything else. No one question's VY athletic ability or heart, but questions exist regarding his intelligence and decision making and mechanics. IMO the leap from college DE to NFL DE (esp at Williams size/speed) is much less than the leap from college QB to NFL QB, regardless of the prospect.
I'm cool with you, as far as arguing football....... I know you know your stuff, and I find it a challenge when we disagree. That, I think, makes this Messageboard worthwhile.jerek said:
So any dummy can be a defensive end, as long as he's stronger than all get out, and faster than 350lb linemen??jerek said:
I don't think so. You take your raw athletic ability, and you get Jevon Kearse, who IMHO is one of the biggest disappointments to every play on the defensive line. He had it all, power, speed, and attitude....... but he knew everything, and doesn't/didn't work on developing his technique or his knowledge of his opponent. Even though he is productive at the position, he is nowhere near what he should've been.
I'd bet Reggie & Bruce watched as much film as anyone, and they both have their patented moves that are studied by every defensive end wanna be from the CFL to Junior high.
Besides, the comparisons will never be 100% accurate, as we are all individuals. Because Mario= 80%(Bruce Smith/Reggie White) & Vince=75% Elway, is no reason to beat one guy down for making such a comparison, and praising another for the same thing.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
Agreed that comparisons will never be one hundred percent accurate. I do not see a lot of comparison between Elway and VY myself, but if others do so be it.
As far as DE, this is the thing. Think about all that goes into being a successful quarterback at the NFL level: good arm, good mechanics, good vision and quick decision making, and of course mobility helps, as well as room for those intangibles like leadership, the "it" factor, whatever you want to call it. VY clearly has mobility and has clearly demonstrated poise and leadership, but his arm is not particularly strong, his mechanics are iffy, and much has been made of the offense he ran and his ability to translate his game to a "real" NFL offense. IMO he will be a successful NFL QB, but he has a lot to learn and lot of ground to cover in the process.
Now, consider an NFL DE. Speed and strength are very prominent factors. Next we consider moves and technique; also important, but easier to develop with proper coaching. Basic stunts, swim moves, bull rushes, etc. are debatedly easier skills to develop. Mario Williams is perhaps the most superior athlete ever to play the position; he is young and raw still but has at least as much upside as VY. You point to guys like White and Smith and praise their film study and patented moves, yet you have zero knowledge of Williams' own game habits or what he does or will do to improve himself. Did Reggie and Bruce come out of college with those 'patented moves?' No, they, like Williams, were phenomenal athletes at the position who came into the league and benefitted from coaching and pro experience. Believe me, as high as Kubiak and our FO has reportedly been on Reggie for months? They are not passing Bush for Williams lightly.
The worst anyone can say about Mario Williams is that he is young and not as much is known about him. Most people have seen at most a highlight clip of the guy. A friend of mine loaned me four different, full game tapes of him. Trust me, he is and will be the real deal.
Comparing Williams to VY is somewhat moot IMO though, because bottom line we are passing on VY because of a prior commitment to Carr. That has always been the case and thus VY has never been in the running as far as the Texans are concerned: it made football sense from the day we resigned the guy, and I think Peyton Manning could have come out this year and we were still committed to Carr, regardless. Our FO feels -- and I agree -- that Carr can and will get the job done at QB. On the other hand, the only "true" 4-3 DE (more of the same DE/DT hybrid we already have in guys like Robaire Smith) we have is Anthony Weaver, who is a solid inside presence but is slow and hardly a pass rush threat. We have Babin who is iffy and Peek who is not an every-down DE, so naturally we turn to the perhaps greatest physical specimen to ever come out of college and ask ourselves, hmm, I wonder what he could for the Texans today?
And believe me, Mario is easily perhaps the greatest physical specimen to come out of the college game.
Any way, Mario is gonna be good, and I believe quite possibly revolutionary. I don't think quite so highly of Vince, but I will give him his props any day of the week, and I think he will be quite successful in the NFL.
jerek said:
And that's all this little argument was about...... I'm over Vince being a Texan..... I'm not arguing that.
jerek said:
If you had trent Dilfer, before the Superbowl...... Kubiak & Mcnair says he's good enough, and Peyton Manning coming out of college...... Houston Texans are on the clock.......... do you think we should pass??
Everything else about our situation is the same. You can even say Peyton is from Houston if that would influence your decision one way or the other.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Chicagotexan1 said:
You mean like Emmitt Smith at #17 (to small and slow), Joe Montana, Dan Marino, etc, etc, etc.. none clear cut #1s. Just a horrible argument since there are alot more busts than studs in the history of the Top 5.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
Probably not, but if I thought that Carr was as average as Dilfer and Young as special as Manning (although, Manning is phenomenal no doubt, but I question if he's got the stones to get it done past the first round of the playoffs), then it would be a different story in terms of who I wanted. Trouble is, our FO thinks Carr is at least "good enough," they evidently do not think VY is substantial enough of an upgrade over Carr's "at least good enough" and that we have other positions of much greater need, at least one of which features an equally special, if not more impressive, "once in a lifetime" talent (again, depending on POV.)
IMO if they disagreed, they would not have resigned Carr.
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
HoustonFrog said:
Hometown, not being a factor, so why not take the BPA with the least risk?
TreWardTxn
Waterboy
Chicagotexan1 said:
I don't know if anyone thought that MJ would have 6 rings by the time he retired, but that said; Jordan had athleticism and the ability to make sensational plays that made him standout among other players, he was a 3rd pick. When you factor that in with his competitive spirit and ability to come through in the clutch (which is where the VY comparison is useful) and it starts to make more sense. The way Jordan won that '82 championship (as an underdog against college legend Ewing) told you something about his mentality, and the same is true for Vince...
Jordan didn't have that fadeaway jumper down pat until after the first comeback. What's the NFL QB equivalent of that? Probably an over-the-outside-shoulder fade throw, and guys who are willing to work find a way reach that potential.
But that's not the point. The way Young handles pressure and makes everyone believe he'll get the job done is speical. After that go-ahead TD in the Rose Bowl he looked emotionless, not shocked, happy, or anything; he stayed calm and got his team ready for the 2 pt. conversion, displaying great awareness of the situation. Say what you want about him, but he saved all the chest thumping for after the game.
Maybe VY should be more compared to Drexler. Team after team passed on him because they thought he couldn't shoot. 'All he does is run and dunk'...well, where is he now? In the hall of fame as one of the NBA's 50 greatest players. Young will be the same way...
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
I'm still not conVINCEd.
no, that's what I'm saying. Do you pass on Manning to get Bush or Mario..Runner said:
jerek said:
Yeah, I understand that...... I'm just trying to figure out what "good enough" is......... Is "good enough" 2005 Hasselback/Plummer....... or SuperBowl Dilfer/Johnson....... Is good enough Bledsoe??
I think he's "Bledsoe", & I think Vince is "McNabb"(the running equivalent to Manning). The money thing screws everything up..... the $8 mil extension... I've just been trying to be a torn in some peoples side.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
If Vince Young played for Notre Dame via Chicago , this would be a non issue .
Reggie Bush is the safest bet to be a sure thing . Mario's stock started to rise after the combine . He did'nt play up to his numbers during the season .
Until Vince proves otherwise , Hassleback is a better pro QB .
Reggie Bush is the safest bet to be a sure thing . Mario's stock started to rise after the combine . He did'nt play up to his numbers during the season .
Until Vince proves otherwise , Hassleback is a better pro QB .
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I object.......... speculation.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Your right ... its all speculation . Does anyone know what the dinosaurs looked like . You take the information given and try to project . Reggie has the best fossills to build from .
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Chicagotexan1 said:
I'm not saying take VY but your initial argument was that if he was such a stud why would he slide?The answer is that a ton of studs have slid because most NFL teams concentrate on H, W, speed, drills, etc and will put all that in front of intangibles. Some guys just have the mentality. We will see when this all pans out but I bet 2 out of the Top 4 guys aren't as great as people think we we look back. I'll still stick with my middle of the road comments though. VY is a stud and a good kid, same with Bush, same with most of these top 5 guys. We just have differing opinions on what is best for the team. The scary part is that this draft will shape us for a long while.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I'm not sure on this. I think some people see his skills and think they translate into us needign a guy who can take over games and who has the ball in his hands. Some don't like Carr and think we just overpaid. Would the UT faithful be so upset..hell no..but I think people would still debate VY. The only thing I have heard Casserly say that I agree with is that you evaluate and hope it works out. I refuse to believe that I can figure out if Bush or VY or both are going to be stud.
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
HoustonFrog said:
Can't argue that one. I love civility in the face of disagreement.
HoustonFrog said:
Not only that, but it's not easy to factor in things like level of competition, level of the players around him, what's his motivation(which I think is the most important), and things like that. Emmitt Smith wanted to be the best... Aikman wanted to win..... Dante had something to prove....... and Minnesota gave hims something else to prove......
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Chicagotexan1 said:
Thanks. There is no need for anyone to get too fired up about opinions on football players. It is supposed to be fun..lolChicagotexan1
Veteran
HoustonFrog said:
But this is Texas. Things are diffrent in our country.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I do not believe Vince could have beaten out Brady Quinn.
JMHO though.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Chicagotexan1 said:
LOL..it is but I refuse to let people's opinion undermine my wasting hours at work.
Mike Kerns
LYSB Podcast
HoustonFrog said:LOL..it is but I refuse to let people's opinion undermine my wasting hours at work.
Honestly, who is still working right now?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I just heard Mattress Mac is going to buy the Saints and play them in the Astrodome . He is trading Drew Brees to the Cowboys for a 3rd round pick . This opens the door for Vince to play in Houston .Mac says he and VY will compete head up against the Texans and Bush for the Houston dollar on Sundays . He'll have tents setup to sell recliners and mattresses . He will also drop ticket prices 10% with your good credit .
Doom Capers
Waterboy
kastofsna said:
Hahaha, he must be pretty dumb then.
Frak The Jags said:Honestly, who is still working right now?
I'm gonna get fired....
Htown34s said:
Doh.....
Well, I made it home. so I'm fine for now.
I hope to not spend as much time here next week, you know about 40 hrs less per week, after the draft....... I should be ok.
BREAZE said:
Maybe not dominate... but beat us twice a year... that's a very real possibility everyone in Houston better get ready for. Johnson and Moulds can only catch the ball when it's thrown to them. You've got to make good reads and good decisions where that's concerned. Did you see some of the balls Andre had to try to catch from DC? I wish people would quit bashing Young's ability to accurately pass the football. What has the guy got to do to prove himself?