Texans 2-6: Who's to Blame?

[whiskeyrbl]

I have to say it is on the last regime. Poor drafting and poor FA moves over a 4 year span. That along with bad coaching and teaching to the players we have had.Hopefully in the next couple of years we will be contenders, I say a couple because I don't think the ship can be corrected in 1. Although they are making large strides this year it is not showing in the win column.

 

[hollywood_texan]

Yeah but one thing about moon is that he was able to throw deep to his wide recievers.

Very good point with regard to comparing Carr to Moon. It just doesn't fit.

My concern about Carr is that since day one, this offense has been slow and predictable. That really hasn't changed after all these years.

The offense still hasn't run the 2-minute drill yet this year and we have two offensive guru's in Kubiak and Sherman.

Every team is thin on talent at certain positions, particularly on offensive line because there are so many teams in the league. That is why you need skill positions to perform amazing and great coaching to put you over the top. So I think the arguement that David needs more help is a little overrated. He should be doing a lot better with what it already has.

Also, making big plays are more important than making mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone makes big plays.

I just haven't seen Carr make big plays, and even inconsistently at that.

Carr's best game is no mistakes and hope the defense keeps it close and maybe win a game. Does that sound famaliar?

 

[Hookem Horns]

David Carr

 

[Texan_Bill]

Yeah but one thing about moon is that he was able to throw deep to his wide recievers.

Not so much his first 4 or 5 seasons because he spent a lot of time on his back as the O-line was developing or he was busy recovering fumbles BUT very true in the years following.

 

[El Tejano]

It's the secondary's fault. 2 INTs in 8 games. I know we want to blame the pass rush and stuff but there is a better pass rush these days and WRs are still wide open on 3rd and 15.

 

[Vinny]

I in no way was comparing HOF status.. But whats interesting is that Moon had more fumbles than Carr and other stats are eerily similar at the same points in their respective careers. Lest we forget Moon had 4 or 5 years in the CFL (more like a finishing school than pro bowl) to develop further than a 22 year old rookie

Moon was horrible in his first five years. We all try to remember his career with rose colored glasses, but if you are realistic, you will remember how bad he was, and how the fans boooed him merciless in the Dome.

But what happened? The Oilers stuck with him, built an O-line, got some Running backs, receivers and brought in a new system (a hybrid of the run-n-shoot) the "Red Gun".....

The jury is out on Carr for sure, but he can still succeed.....

That's revisionist history...Moon was not "horrible" in his first five years here. Sure, like almost every single QB ever he had some rough moments early in his NFL career...but some of this stuff pimping Carr by trying to ridicule HOF QB's like Moon is just ridiculous. Warren Moon is a horrid comparison to Carr since he routinely made big plays even though he would fumble the ball or thew some picks (Moon knew how to challenge a defense down the field). Carr doesn't have near his game and I saw both QB's play every single game ever in Columbia blue and in Steel blue. The game was different then and look up all the great QB stats of his era from the 70's to the early 80's....they threw down field more often and passer % wasn't high like it is now with the short passing game. Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Moon, Bradshaw...you name em, their raw stats didn't look as good as Carr's.....but they were throwing the deep ball and they made big plays in clutch situations.....you can't see that by just reviewing stat lines. Sure, the run and shoot made Moon's stat line jump, but it was Moon more than the RnS....Bob Gagliano couldn't make the RnS work up in Detroit with Mouse Davis. Moon was a hell of a QB. Moon made players around him better...something Carr doesn't do. He did it in Canada, here, in Minnesota and all thru his career. Borderline journeymen guys like Heywood Jeffries probably benefited most from Moon's great passing abilities. All of you guys that keep comparing Carr to hall of famers just look so ridiculous to me...I don't understand it myself.

 

[TexansLucky13]

Blaming the record on David Carr represents both ignorance and a general lack of understanding of the game of football.

That said, I agree with whiskey on this one. Our last regime is to blame. You know what I like the most about Kubiak? He knows exactly what he is doing, and he shows it. We needed someone who had enough cojones to deal with the problems that this team has.

Kubiak is the answer.

 

[ib4texans]

Ok let us look at "Dallas" no way that Sage is winning that game. No run game at all,who try's to pick up the slack with "big plays" David. I wonder if the Cowboys were expecting a pass play with a run game like that.

"Jacksonville" defense puts us in position to win offense executes and "W"

"Titans" Carr turns it over, yet he is hit from the blind side. No protection. Pull him and put Sage in, all of the sudden there are no "sacks" he's hardly even hurried.

"NYG" The return of the poor running game,unless you count Carr's rushing TD. Defense plays well,but no turnovers. Oh and let's not leave Kris Brown our PK who missid from what 38 yards?

Geez!! Who's fault is it? I don't think I have enough fingers to point. It is nobody's fault, we have already tied last seasons record,and have the potential if not with the "Jaguars" then with the "Bills" to start 4-5 game winning streek. "Nuff said"

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Ok let us look at "Dallas" no way that Sage is winning that game. No run game at all,who try's to pick up the slack with "big plays" David. I wonder if the Cowboys were expecting a pass play with a run game like that.

"Jacksonville" defense puts us in position to win offense executes and "W"

"Titans" Carr turns it over, yet he is hit from the blind side. No protection. Pull him and put Sage in, all of the sudden there are no "sacks" he's hardly even hurried.

"NYG" The return of the poor running game,unless you count Carr's rushing TD. Defense plays well,but no turnovers. Oh and let's not leave Kris Brown our PK who missid from what 38 yards?

Geez!! Who's fault is it? I don't think I have enough fingers to point. It is nobody's fault, we have already tied last seasons record,and have the potential if not with the "Jaguars" then with the "Bills" to start 4-5 game winning streek. "Nuff said"

This is why I say (and have said) we're just a bad team. Until we can start putting everything together consistently, we're going to continue to be a bad team. I think that right this second, we have the pieces to be a decent team but we just haven't put them together. Now, some people blame that on leadership and that's why the point to Carr because they believe it's on the QB to provide that leadership. I don't believe that. I think we're just not good, yet. Hopefully, over the next few weeks, we'll start making the plays that will turn us from bad to at least not so bad.

 

[Texan_Bill]

That's revisionist history...Moon was not "horrible" in his first five years here. Sure, like almost every single QB ever he had some rough moments early in his NFL career...but some of this stuff pimping Carr by trying to ridicule HOF QB's like Moon is just ridiculous. Warren Moon is a horrid comparison to Carr since he routinely made big plays even though he would fumble the ball or thew some picks (Moon knew how to challenge a defense down the field). Carr doesn't have near his game and I saw both QB's play every single game ever in Columbia blue and in Steel blue. The game was different then and look up all the great QB stats of his era from the 70's to the early 80's....they threw down field more often and passer % wasn't high like it is now with the short passing game. Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Moon, Bradshaw...you name em, their raw stats didn't look as good as Carr's.....but they were throwing the deep ball and they made big plays in clutch situations.....you can't see that by just reviewing stat lines. Sure, the run and shoot made Moon's stat line jump, but it was Moon more than the RnS....Bob Gagliano couldn't make the RnS work up in Detroit with Mouse Davis. Moon was a hell of a QB. Moon made players around him better...something Carr doesn't do. He did it in Canada, here, in Minnesota and all thru his career. Borderline journeymen guys like Heywood Jeffries probably benefited most from Moon's great passing abilities. All of you guys that keep comparing Carr to hall of famers just look so ridiculous to me...I don't understand it myself.

First, I wish you would read, comprehend and not lock in one satement....I never pimped Carr by ridiculing Moon, that statement was ludicrous.... I am not knocking Moon at all, loved the guy and went to his induction to the NFL Quarterback's Club HOF at the Intercontinental hotel (sat next to Bubba McDowell which was nice).... I am not Pro Carr either.

With that out of the way.....
What is revisionist history is people forgetting how bad he was booed (you were probably one) and the real *****s that threw racial slurs that he and his family endured. Those early days were ugly under Hugh Campbell and Jerry Glanville.To this day, Moon holds the fumble record and the majority of them were early in his career under those regimes.

Forget about the run and shoot. His first seasons were in a pro-style offense and under Glanville they went to the red-gun part of the time (mostly in 3rd down situations). Side note: I dont hold the run-n-shoot responsible for "padding" his numbers. He was asked to run that system and he ran it very well and amassed wins with those numbers.

In the end you hatred for Carr has impeded your ability to see the point that I was leaning towards and that is - as the Oilers made a commitment to strenghten their O-line (soon to be 2 HOF's) and get some running backs, Moon was able to shine..... The scenario is what I am comparing - not eras, not stats not blah, blah...... Give Carr the SAME scenario of tools to work with (and notice, I didn't mention receivers because Carr does have Johnson - which Moon did not = Advantage Carr) and then we can truly judge if he is a bust, an average Joe, or something special... I am NOT sold on the guy, but I would like to see him given the opportunities that others have had....... i.e. MOON.

 

[Vinny]

perhaps not just you...I just see it too much around here. Don't take me quoting you too directly, but I still don't agree with any Moon was horrible for the first five years spin. Moon came to a bad team and made that team better. Carr has to do this too...hasn't been done yet. Moon carried that team many, many times.

 

[Texan_Bill]

perhaps not just you...I just see it too much around here. Don't take me quoting you too directly, but I still don't agree with any Moon was horrible for the first five years spin. Moon came to a bad team and made that team better. Carr has to do this too...hasn't been done yet.

I just get a little hot whenever I try to make a comparison but what I am really saying gets lost in translation - no worries.

Thats the point.... however, Moon was a piece of the puzzle (albeit a BIG piece). Mike Munchak and Bruce Mathews were very integral to his success and the Oilers turn around too...

Nuff said on this deal....I still really blame Casserly....

 

[ib4texans]

perhaps not just you...I just see it too much around here. Don't take me quoting you too directly, but I still don't agree with any Moon was horrible for the first five years spin. Moon came to a bad team and made that team better. Carr has to do this too...hasn't been done yet. Moon carried that team many, many times.

Lets put this in perspective then "Joey Harrington" Joey came to an existing franchise, was not thrown immediatly in frying pan. When his time came "lots of turn overs and losses." In all fairness is Carr better than Harrington? Lienart,Young they can't do it with an existing franchise. Kerry Collins was on the Panthers expansion year. Collins was a great deep threat and over 3500 YDS passing for 4 consecutive years. He's a bust, Carr is on a team that has better attitude and fans. He's no Peyton Manning, but then he's no Harrington, or Collins either.

 

[hollywood_texan]

The two most important positions for a successful NFL football team are the QB and the head coach.

There are 32 teams in the league, so every team is going to be very thin or one injury away from having a very average team on paper on either side of the ball.

That is why a skill position like the QB needs to be exceptional and carry the load and make other players better, particularly if the QB is being paid max dollars because of the salary cap. Exceptions are teams that have very, very good defenses.

The offensive line gets a lot of the blame for the Texans. But, think about this for moment. An NFL team has about 10 offensive lineman on their 53-man roster with maybe 1 or 2 guys on the practice squad. That means there are probably 340 guys either on NFL rosters or on the practice squads as offensive lineman. There are going to big gaps in talent level on the offensive line for every team on every Sunday. Coaching and QB play is what makes the difference in today's in NFL for a successful offense. Just blaming the offensive line if the QB plays poorly or gets sacked isn't really the entire story. My point is, every team has this problem!

The last two games are at Kubiak and Carr's shoulders because the offense couldn't score quality points early in the game and couldn't come through in the clutch. Kubiak and Carr needs to bring more to the team because there are always going to be holes on a squad due to how many teams there are in the league, and don't forget injuries happen too.

 

[srstex]

Yeah but one thing about moon is that he was able to throw deep to his wide recievers.

And Moon's O-line had Mathews, Maggs and Munchak. It has always started up front, if Carr, or anybody for that matter, had those three guys up front you would see good things. I like Chester Pitts always have-I have said so many times on this board- and Mathews was a Pro-Bowl Center-Guard-& Tackle, so just because he has moved around ALOT does not demenish the fact that Pitts is our best lineman.

 

[thunderkyss]

This is why I say (and have said) we're just a bad team. Until we can start putting everything together consistently, we're going to continue to be a bad team. I think that right this second, we have the pieces to be a decent team but we just haven't put them together. Now, some people blame that on leadership and that's why the point to Carr because they believe it's on the QB to provide that leadership. I don't believe that. I think we're just not good, yet. Hopefully, over the next few weeks, we'll start making the plays that will turn us from bad to at least not so bad.

One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.

& David's second INT, david stared down his reciever.

I don't think Sage would've had that same problem. I'm sure he would have seen the mismatches, and worked them.

Titans.... David had three turnovers. Some think he never should have thrown the ball, I think he should have put it on a rope..... regardless, it was an INT.

Both fumbles, Carr had the ball at his hips, as he moved around the pocket. the Ball was fumbled because of the way he was holding it...... not because he was hit. We should not expect a fumble every time he gets sacked, or hit in the back.

It's very unlikely that these mistakes would've occured had Sage been in the game..... as it was mentioned, Sage wasn't sacked in the same game, with the same OLine, against the same 4 & 5 man rushes that got David.

NYG...... I expected David to follow a terrible game with a good game. his numbers weren't great, but I was impressed that he put the team on his shoulders, and didn't come up short on that crazy dive into(over the defenders) into the endzone. But yeah, I saw open recievers...... down field, when David went underneath.

I'm not blaming Carr for these losses.. a better runing game in all those games would have helped us win those games tremendously. A better defens(more T.O.s) would have helped, stopping Tiki Barber would have helped. Better QB play would have helped.

 

[srstex]

Just stats-The Texan's average loss is by 8 points per game

Our offense has scored more points than 5 teams, and tied with 1,

Our defense has allowed less points than 5 teams.

Looking at this is in a totally diferent light, Jeff Fisher-Just as a reference not a comparison- always liked his games close because he knew the cumlitive effect of his pound-it style would break down the other team, although Kubiak does not pound it he has kept the games-for the most part- pretty close and maybe that is his goal, keep it close, keep the other guys O off the field ?
Just a thought-random-and pointless.

 

[srstex]

One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.




I agree with the turnovers being Carr's mistakes, but Kubiak said last week that Carr does not audible " That is not part of our game" so every time anybody says that CARR isn't challanging the D, you are wrong, Kubiak and KUBIAK ALONE makes those calls.

 

[bah007]

One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.

& David's second INT, david stared down his reciever.

I don't think Sage would've had that same problem. I'm sure he would have seen the mismatches, and worked them.

Titans.... David had three turnovers. Some think he never should have thrown the ball, I think he should have put it on a rope..... regardless, it was an INT.

Both fumbles, Carr had the ball at his hips, as he moved around the pocket. the Ball was fumbled because of the way he was holding it...... not because he was hit. We should not expect a fumble every time he gets sacked, or hit in the back.

It's very unlikely that these mistakes would've occured had Sage been in the game..... as it was mentioned, Sage wasn't sacked in the same game, with the same OLine, against the same 4 & 5 man rushes that got David.

NYG...... I expected David to follow a terrible game with a good game. his numbers weren't great, but I was impressed that he put the team on his shoulders, and didn't come up short on that crazy dive into(over the defenders) into the endzone. But yeah, I saw open recievers...... down field, when David went underneath.

I'm not blaming Carr for these losses.. a better runing game in all those games would have helped us win those games tremendously. A better defens(more T.O.s) would have helped, stopping Tiki Barber would have helped. Better QB play would have helped.

I agree that Henry & Watkins are below average in coverage and Williams is average at best.

But Newman is one of the top 5 CBs in the league. He hasnt been beat for a TD in 2 YEARS (at least 25 games). He was on AJ for most of the game, so we didnt wanna try going deep on him. Who else on our team is a deep threat?

Moulds is great, but he isnt the deep threat he used to be. A CB like Henry would probably be able to cover him downfield. Walter is not a downfield WR. Daniels could maybe go deep but we wouldnt throw it if Glenn was covering him. He is too good.

 

[thunderkyss]

One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.

I agree with the turnovers being Carr's mistakes, but Kubiak said last week that Carr does not audible " That is not part of our game" so every time anybody says that CARR isn't challanging the D, you are wrong, Kubiak and KUBIAK ALONE makes those calls.

It's not about calling audibles. some of these were passing plays.... David threw the ball to a different reciever. some were completions, some weren't, but it appeared he didn't even recognize the mismatch.

the worst IMHO, was with GregEllis lined up on Owen Daniels at the far end, on the right sideline.

The play was a run to that side. David Called Owen to come into motion, and line up next to Wiegart.

Guess what?? that also brought GregEllis to that side...... the side we ran the ball to. Guess who made the play, and tackled our RB??

& if we've got 3 recievers(you can count the tight end) in a pattern, I guarantee you one of them is going deep.

 

[thunderkyss]

I agree that Henry & Watkins are below average in coverage and Williams is average at best.

But Newman is one of the top 5 CBs in the league. He hasnt been beat for a TD in 2 YEARS (at least 25 games). He was on AJ for most of the game, so we didnt wanna try going deep on him. Who else on our team is a deep threat?

Moulds is great, but he isnt the deep threat he used to be. A CB like Henry would probably be able to cover him downfield. Walter is not a downfield WR. Daniels could maybe go deep but we wouldnt throw it if Glenn was covering him. He is too good.

On that play where Brady James tipped the ball to Greg Ellis, Andre had Newman beat. It wouldn't have been a touchdown, but we'd have gotten down the field.

Henry's interception, he was covering Andre... If you've got ArronGlenn on Moulds, or Owen Daniels , I would exploit that all day long.

& if I ever thought about putting more than two recievers in the game, my game plan would be to get GregEllis on any of our WRs...... that's what I'd be looking for, and every time I saw it, I'd make Ellis look stupid.

 

[srstex]

One play does not engulf the entire game, none of our WR are what the NFL would call fast, so a deep ball turns into a jump ball, that AJ should win most of the time, but still is not a play you want to go to regularly. I hate to burst the we suck bubble, but the Giants are kicking themselves just as bad for only winng by four points, and lets face it when Cook dropped the in the fouth quater we were on our way towards a win. I did not say we would have won, BUT Cook should have protected the ball, 4:11 left in the game we have the ball, we are 4 points down, Cook catches that ball and we may all be writing what a great game the team played, Cook lost that game.

 

[thunderkyss]

One play does not engulf the entire game, none of our WR are what the NFL would call fast, so a deep ball turns into a jump ball, that AJ should win most of the time, but still is not a play you want to go to regularly. I hate to burst the we suck bubble, but the Giants are kicking themselves just as bad for only winng by four points, and lets face it when Cook dropped the in the fouth quater we were on our way towards a win. I did not say we would have won, BUT Cook should have protected the ball, 4:11 left in the game we have the ball, we are 4 points down, Cook catches that ball and we may all be writing what a great game the team played, Cook lost that game.

How 'bout if one of our players has the title "fastest man in the NFL" only 2 years ago?? & I only mentioned one play where Newman was beat, there were others...... & there is more to getting open than speed, especially when their SS is always in the box.

 

[aj.]

Without looking at stats, Moon had 2 maybe 2 1/2 what I'd call bad years (84 through mid-season 86 - the entire Hugh Campbell gig and the first part of Glanville). Most of it was dead era post-LYB stuff. When June Jones came in in 86, and Jerry let him open the offense, things changed dramatically. I remember being at the Dome when they won their last 4 home games in '86. Even though they finished 5-11, the place started rocking again for the first time since LYB (even with lots of emptys in the rainbows). I don't recall Moon being booed after mid-season '86 because the team was winning again. In '87 they made the playoffs.

 

[srstex]

How 'bout if one of our players has the title "fastest man in the NFL" only 2 years ago?? & I only mentioned one play where Newman was beat, there were others...... & there is more to getting open than speed, especially when their SS is always in the box.

And still IF Cook would have held onto the ball your post would not matter, if we went on to win that is. And the fastest man on our team last year was Jerome Mathis.

 

[hollywood_texan]

And Moon's O-line had Mathews, Maggs and Munchak. It has always started up front, if Carr, or anybody for that matter, had those three guys up front you would see good things. I like Chester Pitts always have-I have said so many times on this board- and Mathews was a Pro-Bowl Center-Guard-& Tackle, so just because he has moved around ALOT does not demenish the fact that Pitts is our best lineman.

That was a different era.

I don't see how any team in today's NFL is going to get three stud offensive lineman on their squad because there are 4 more teams now diluting the pool.

Further, it would be next to impossible to keep them if you are able to do it because of the salary cap and free agency.

Bottom line, the offensive line can and must be improved to some extent, but Kubiak and Carr are going to have to be successful with less than really than more with regard to talent on the offensive line. There just isn't enough guys to go around to accumulate a stud offensive line all the way around and to have backups to boot if their are injuries.

 

[thunderkyss]

And still IF Cook would have held onto the ball your post would not matter, if we went on to win that is. And the fastest man on our team last year was Jerome Mathis.

You're quoting my post about the Cowboy game.... what difference does it make if Cook holds onto the ball two games later??

& I understand Mathis being the fastest man on our team, but you said none of our recievers are considered NFL fast...... I said Andre won the NFLs fastest man competition 2 years ago.

EDIT: sorry, I just looked it up, he came in second

 

[infantrycak]

I don't see how any team in today's NFL is going to get three stud offensive lineman on their squad because there are 4 more teams now diluting the pool.

You haven't been watching the Chiefs for the last few years prior to this one huh? Or the Seahawks?

 

[Texan_Bill]

The Oilers kept drafting O-line shortly thereafter, netting Jon Runyan who couldn't get much playing time (because of who was in front of him), Brad Hopkins (pro-bowler) and some others whose name escape me right now... And Infantrycak is correct - take a look at what those teams have done...

 

[Double Barrel]

Win as a team, lose as a team. There are way too many glaring inconsistencies with this team to pinpoint one aspect as the reason for losing this year.

As TC mentioned, implementing a new system with a whole lot of new players can take awhile to gel and find success. If I had to "blame" someone, I think the previous regime/GM left a lasting legacy of mediocrity and bad personnel decisions that have hurt us this year more than anything else. Just look at how many of their players have been cut from the team.

 

[aj.]

There's merit to the argument that it would be very difficult to keep three premiere O-linemen (such as Munchak, Matthews, and Steinkuhler) who were drafted in consecutive years together beyond their rookie deals because of the cap. Modern cap issues didn't hit until '94. That's one of the reasons Moon (and others from that really good '93 team) were released/traded.

 

[hollywood_texan]

You haven't been watching the Chiefs for the last few years prior to this one huh? Or the Seahawks?

infantrycak, maybe so. Even though I post on this board a lot, I don't know everything that goes on regarding the NFL and I don't have the time to completely back everything up I say with hard numbers because I to work and I have a pipe dream to push because I live in Hollywood. However, that is not an excuse and maybe I am wrong.

But, I don't think so.

What I am saying is, and I don't have hard numbers, it doesn't seem like teams are accumulating and stockpiling marquee players, particularly on the offensive line. Every year, teams are letting big names go in free agency from offensive line to running back.

Your example of the Seahawks really doesn't fit because Hutchinson is now with the Vikings because of free agency from last season. Which is my point.

Look at the Patriots. Those guys are consistently very good and lose a lot of players and coaches every year. The two consitent themes are the head coach and the QB. No need to mention their names because everyone knows who they are. Who are the pro bowlers on the offensive line for the Patriots?

I don't know the Chiefs situation on the offensive line. I am going to look up those guys up and see if they have three pro-bowlers on their squad and get back with you. If the Chiefs are doing that, the Texans need to know how they did it and how they can replicate that because I don't think many teams are able to do it in the NFL. It is very hard to that with free agency and 32 teams in the league because the talent pool is stretched very thin.

 

[hollywood_texan]

You haven't been watching the Chiefs for the last few years prior to this one huh? Or the Seahawks?

Looked up the Chiefs, they did have three Pro Bowlers the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, Roaf just retired this year, so they lost one.

Out of 32 teams the Chiefs and Seahawks did it for a year or two, but it didn't last long.

My point is, you can't rely on your system if it requires more than half of your offensive line to be pro bowlers. The chances of that happening are slim, and if you are successful, it is going to chew up a lot of cap space.

The most important part of an NFL team right now is the Head Coach and GM. There is no salary cap there. Then I would say a QB and a defensive lineman or middle linebacker are the next to most important.

If you have the right system that works well within the salary cap structure and you can scout and coach the talent, you are going to be successful. It is really that simple. Look at the Patriots, Broncos, and Steelers.

Bottom line though, because there are 32 teams in the league and a salary cap, the most successful teams, coaches, and players are going to be the ones that can succeed with less around them than with more. Essentially, a team needs 3 big play makers with decent talent around them that fits well within the system. That is what I am saying.

Who are the 3 big play makers for the Texans?

 

[thunderkyss]

My point is, you can't rely on your system if it requires more than half of your offensive line to be pro bowlers. The chances of that happening are slim, and if you are successful, it is going to chew up a lot of cap space.

Bottom line though, because there are 32 teams in the league and a salary cap, the most successful teams, coaches, and players are going to be the ones that can succeed with less around them than with more. Essentially, a team needs 3 big play makers with decent talent around them that fits well within the system. That is what I am saying.

Who are the 3 big play makers for the Texans?

I think the way to do this, would be to continue to draft OL every year, even if that means to 6th & 7th round talent... continue to work with young talent, and have someone ready to go in the event something is not working.

It makes absolutley no sense for the Texans to skip a year, when we have shown absolutely nothing to suggest that we've got this OL thing figured out.

Of course you have to be pretty good at drafting, but I think FA can be just as risky, with injuries, and poor veteran attitudes.

Build your starting line, and your backup as well.

 

[hollywood_texan]

I think the way to do this, would be to continue to draft OL every year, even if that means to 6th & 7th round talent... continue to work with young talent, and have someone ready to go in the event something is not working.

It makes absolutley no sense for the Texans to skip a year, when we have shown absolutely nothing to suggest that we've got this OL thing figured out.

Of course you have to be pretty good at drafting, but I think FA can be just as risky, with injuries, and poor veteran attitudes.

Build your starting line, and your backup as well.

I think that is probably the round about philosophy.

Maybe skip a year if you have depth and you additional help in other areas though. But, you have to keep the pool fresh because you need 10 OL guys on your roster and injuries are going to happen.

But, I think what your are saying is build your team through the draft and don't rely or make big splashes into free agency because it is just too expensive.

I think you first have to have a system that will be be productive in the current environment and fill it out accordingly.

Key players to have are QB, LT, DE, LB, and CB as skill positions to fill out. The rest you don't have to really overspend if you have the right system and scout the talent appropriately.

 

[Doug]

Well TC, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the read and I think your points of emphasis were extremely accurate, imo. I don't like looking to next year when we're only half way through this season but with the strides this team is making week by week they are going to be hard to handle next year by any opposing team on our schedule. 2 and 6 is definitely not an illustration of what this team really is.

 

[mganz]

70% completion for 220 yards........... yawn.....

why does it matter? If he is 70% with an average ypc of roughly 8, he is moving the ball. I'm ok with that. Its not as exciting, but it is effective. 70% at 8 YPC is better than 30% at 15 YPC.

 

[infantrycak]

What I am saying is, and I don't have hard numbers, it doesn't seem like teams are accumulating and stockpiling marquee players, particularly on the offensive line. Every year, teams are letting big names go in free agency from offensive line to running back.

It is very hard to that with free agency and 32 teams in the league because the talent pool is stretched very thin.

I guess the part I disagree with is the talent pool being stretched being the cause. IMO it is the salary cap. You can do it so long as folks are on their rookie contracts and then re-up some folks but you are going to lose people to free agency as well who have more money. There is no doubt you can't keep too many elite players on your team for a prolonged time period because of the cap. The solution is to draft wisely at positions you anticipate letting go even if the player is performing well.

 

[thunderkyss]

70% completion for 220 yards........... yawn.....

why does it matter? If he is 70% with an average ypc of roughly 8, he is moving the ball. I'm ok with that. Its not as exciting, but it is effective. 70% at 8 YPC is better than 30% at 15 YPC.

First, 70% at 8 ypc, is his reciever's working their butts off, breaking tackles & acting more like Tightends.....

Why pay $8 million dollars to one of three tight ends??

 

[Vambo, the Marble Eye]

This season Carr has had an acceptional ofensive line. In the last game we held the top rated defense of the Giants to one sack. The offense is getting better because they are protecting the man with the ball. They just can not make room for the running back to make a move. Carr still throws short yard passes because he is afraid of getting sacked.

I don't really KNOW if Carr is afraid of getting sacked, but I bet money the coaches are not preaching 3 and 5 step drops (play calling cuz) by having the greatest of confidence in our pass protection. The lack of sacks on Carr is due to executing and good management of a game plan.

There is no "blame" for our record in my opinion. Our record is what it is... the result of a new coach trying to fix an broken franchise in 8 games with a horrendous game schedule. With these kind of obstacles, you will blow pass coverages, miss assignments and fumble. Over time, if we actually fail to improve on continuing weaknesses can we assign blame.

 

[Texanfan4ever]

I don't really KNOW if Carr is afraid of getting sacked, but I bet money the coaches are not preaching 3 and 5 step drops (play calling cuz) by having the greatest of confidence in our pass protection. The lack of sacks on Carr is due to executing and good management of a game plan.

There is no "blame" for our record in my opinion. Our record is what it is... the result of a new coach trying to fix an broken franchise in 8 games with a horrendous game schedule. With these kind of obstacles, you will blow pass coverages, miss assignments and fumble. Over time, if we actually fail to improve on continuing weaknesses can we assign blame.

THANK YOU!!!!
YOu are the voice of reason. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Battle Red Flash]

Who's to blame? Casserly and Capers.
Capers stuck with his buddies as coaches, and they could not teach.
I see improvement everywhere, and I expect us to go 4-4 over the last 8 games. That boy Kubiak knows what he's doing.

If I have to blame someone on the current team, I'd say the defense over the first 3 games, then the O-line.

 

[cuppacoffee]

I said I wouldn't have benched him in the Tennessee game. I've also stated that David is & should be the starter, because Kubiak is treating him more or less like a rookie prospect signed to be our future. So regardless if the fans(me, myself, & I) think we have a better QB on the bench, or that it is time to move on....... David will get the start.

I don't like David, I think I've been pretty consistent about that. I do believe he is playing better than he did last year....... I think I've been pretty honest about that.

Yes...... not all of the bad play that I'm talking about concern learning, or scheming.

Protecting the ball is fundamental, and something he should have learned 5 years ago, and you shouldn't need a HOF coach to tell you. Indy, Washington, and Tennesse..... David gave them the ball by not holding onto it. Warner is sitting down right now, for the same reason on a team that is just as bad. Nobody is talking about new schemes & OL gelling.



Right there, I'm just saying that I'm just saying through my hatred of David, I can still see many reasons why we are losing games....... i.e. it's not David's fault. I think we are on the same side of this argument.

I wish I could say Jake has been playing worse than Carr. He's definitely playing worse than he did last year, but this year I'd say he is playing at about the same level(effectiveness of David) except he's really turned it on in the last two games, and David is still giving us the same blah..

Jake is avg completion is for 11.8 yards per completion. if he completed 70% of his passess(217 x 0.7=151) he'd have 1,792 passing yards right now, that's all I'm saying about that.


you're right, we don't know.... and it's just speculation.

Consistant?.... ..... Au Contraire my friend, anything but!

Love Him One Day and Hate HIm the Next

"You mess with David, and your messing with me. He's my boy, and I got his back." Quoted from TKs' post.

Looks like you got his back allright TK.

Wouldn't want you watching my back...

Me thinks you have been too easily influenced by all the Carr hating posters on this site. Think for yourself my friend. Carr is doing a better job now than when you made the referenced posting.

Either you have someones back or you don't.

 

[thunderkyss]

Consistant?.... ..... Au Contraire my friend, anything but!

Love Him One Day and Hate HIm the Next

"You mess with David, and your messing with me. He's my boy, and I got his back." Quoted from TKs' post.

Looks like you got his back allright TK.

Wouldn't want you watching my back...

Me thinks you have been too easily influenced by all the Carr hating posters on this site. Think for yourself my friend. Carr is doing a better job now than when you made the referenced posting.

Either you have someones back or you don't.

Again, this is like I love my kids, and you better not mess with them. If you ask me if they pick their nose, I'll tell you ..... yeah.. they pick their nose.

You ask me if I think they should audition for American Idol, I'll tell you what I think about their singing and dancing ability.

People were talking about starting Sage in the preseason.... I said that wasn't going to happen, and shouldn't happen.

People said it was the same old David our first three games, I said no, he's improving, and I listed the areas he was improving in. I said I would support him, and I do.

But when people say our passing game is working...... I point out that 200 ypg is not working....

When people say the rest of the team needs to play as well as David..... I'll point out That David is not the best player on our team...

When people say David had one bad game..... I'll point to his other bad games.

I've got another post somewhere around here where I say I don't like David's game.. the way he plays the game. But that doesn't mean that he can't be successful, or that we won't win games..... it's just not me.

So..... if you want people to think you are perfect..... you don't want me in your corner.

If you want people to think your ***** don't stink... you don't want me in your corner.

If you want someone to pat you on the back when you're doing good, and kick you in the ass when you screw up......... I'm your man.

 

[thunderkyss]

Carr is doing a better job now than when you made the referenced posting.

when have I said he isn't doing better than he was at that time??

When have I said anything that wasn't true about David at all??

 

[cuppacoffee]

when have I said he isn't doing better than he was at that time??

When have I said anything that wasn't true about David at all??

I don't think I have said either thing about you. I just commented on the fact that you are not consistant... as you claimed...

I just questioned the fact that you said you had his back when apparently you don't...

Just wondering what he has done to turn your "love" into "hate" if it isn't his play on the field?...

 

[Vinny]

When have I said anything that wasn't true about David at all??

You know, I've been a Carr critic for a while (probably since my HPF thread throwing down my long term downside for Carr back in 2003 - that started the hater tag the Carr pimps gave me) but I don't get involved in every Carr thread like some of you guys. I think I get lumped in with guys like you unfairly, but that's just something I deal with on an ongoing basis here. To answer your question, I think you damn him with faint praise as a platform to argue from. I think it's pretty transparent. Just chiming in since you asked.

 

[thunderkyss]

To answer your question, I think you damn him with faint praise as a platform to argue from. I think it's pretty transparent. Just chiming in since you asked.

I can see that..........

Meaning if that's your perception, I can see how someone would think that.

Not confirming that that is in fact what is going on.

 

[Vinny]

it's not all bad. I think you are welcome to your opinions since you bring them without attacking other posters....so I'll say good things about that since I do respect that about you.

 

[Hulk75]

I think your both wrong about him.