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Stephen Hill

I will go with NtZ here. The good thing is Hill will probably push Randle(my guy) or K.Wright down to the Texans.

As far as Hill goes I can see BL side of this. He's an amazing athlete. Who played on an option team and hasn't learned how to run the route tree. (Understandably) Also it's not like Hill was playing with Luck or Griffin as his QB.

If the Texans already had a competent WR corps then I would be all for taking Hill in the 1st. Since they dont give me a more pro ready guy like Randle in the 1st and a guy like Joe Adams/Danny Coale in the 4th.
 
WolverineFan said:
Mario and JPP both were pretty good in college though. You see guys with great film bust out all the time. I've never seen a guy with bad film become a star.

This is what I hate about the combine. Guys like Heyward-Bey, Hill, etc., etc. all get overrated because of their measureables. Being a good athlete doesn't make you a good football player.
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Both were seen in the college game as inferior to their linemates (Lawson and Selvie respectively). They got by on physical gifts rather than technique. Both became beasts with proper coaching though.
 
The best thing about Hill is that someone will roll the dice and grab him before our pick, thus pushing a better player down to us.

The guy is an elite athlete who will get nasty in the running game. I love that about him.

But let's tap the brakes here a bit. The guy has tons of negatives:

-He ran about three different routes in his entire college career. The learning curve is going to be tremendous for him.

-From what I've seen, he has the ability to make the great catch but he is not a natural catcher. Too many wide open drops. I wouldn't say he fights the ball but he prefers to use his body instead of his hands.

-The reason his yards per catch is so high is because defenders are getting sucked up by the option game and he just uses his long speed to run past them. He is wide open because of the scheme, not because of his ability as a receiver.

There are reasons to be excited about him as a prospect. But he is a big time project. I don't 100% agree with the Jacoby Jones comparisons but he is way way closer to that than he is to the Calvin Johnsons of the league. I can easily think of about ten guys I would rather have, and most of them could be had later in the draft.
 
Also consider he had the worst QB in the ACC throwing to him.

I doubt he makes it to 30, but I hope the Niners pick him up. Great athlete, enormous potential. It worked out for us when we drafted Vernon Davis, the ultimate work-out warrior. :doot:

Doubt he makes it to 30 though, especially with the emergence of former teammate D. Thomas.
 
thunderkyss said:
Is it a technique issue? Concentration? Is it something a coach can help him with?
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That's not something I will pretend to be qualified to speculate on.

I will say that from my impression, not that I have gone back and rewatched games or anything, that most of his drops came in the open field. The nature of Tech's offense will produce play action passes in which the WR will be wide open, uncovered more often than not. One might speculate too wide open (though they were the same passes Thomas was catching).

This is just my recollection, so it could be biased, skewed, or downright wrong. But, that's what I've taken away from Hill's career at Tech.
 
NastyNate said:
TK, he can't consistently make the catch. PASS! You're giving up Jacoby for a rookie Jacoby 2.0. Stop it already, he hasn't been on draft boards for a reason!
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Dear God no! Outside of Blackmon and Flloyd I would either address another position or trade down.
 
bah007 said:
The best thing about Hill is that someone will roll the dice and grab him before our pick, thus pushing a better player down to us.

The guy is an elite athlete who will get nasty in the running game. I love that about him.

But let's tap the brakes here a bit. The guy has tons of negatives:

-He ran about three different routes in his entire college career. The learning curve is going to be tremendous for him.

-From what I've seen, he has the ability to make the great catch but he is not a natural catcher. Too many wide open drops. I wouldn't say he fights the ball but he prefers to use his body instead of his hands.

-The reason his yards per catch is so high is because defenders are getting sucked up by the option game and he just uses his long speed to run past them. He is wide open because of the scheme, not because of his ability as a receiver.

There are reasons to be excited about him as a prospect. But he is a big time project. I don't 100% agree with the Jacoby Jones comparisons but he is way way closer to that than he is to the Calvin Johnsons of the league. I can easily think of about ten guys I would rather have, and most of them could be had later in the draft.
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There are a lot of truth to this assesments (as well as from a couple others).

However, I see a lot of potential and good things in Hill.

I was able to watch 2 of his games (for now) and highlights from 3 other games (with some studying of the game books).

There are a lot to like about this kid.
There was one dropped ball in those 5 games.
I hope to have a report of some sort on Hill tomorrow night.
 
Not knowing anything about this guy and after reading this thread I saw a guy over at BRB putting a scouting report on him. They evaluated him for his game against UNC and had this to say..
Hill has great measurables. Tall, Lanky, Fast. However he lacks some fundamental skills as a receiver. Football players aren't just athletes, they require skills and techniques that allow them to play the game of football as a receiver. In this game tape, I just don't see it. Poor route running, poor catching technique. I see athlete, fast and catches long balls but I don't see receiver on plays like example one and four. I see dropped balls and to be honest, flag football routes. As a consolation though, Hill is a pretty good blocker, the system and his size has allowed him to become an adequate blocker, something valued by our system. I would like to break down more film on Hill but from what I see, Hill's bad habit (body catches) actually came to get him at the end and as a player he really needs to work on that. Hill can still show his progress at his pro day. I want to see him gain at least 5 lbs of muscle but still maintain his elite speed. That will show me that he is dedicated to improving his size but remains in shape. Also I want to see him look more like a receiver. I want him to catch with his hands and run routes in 90 and 45 degree angles. Stephen Hill has a lot more to prove before he is worth the 26th overall pick in my opinion.
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http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/27/2827529/stephen-hill

It was just one game, but they came away with the same negative impressions many people on here are saying.
 
I could have heard wrong but thought McClain stated on 610 that Texans like Hill both his size, speed & coach-ability but after combine won't be there in 2nd & could be targeted in first :specnatz:
 
beerlover said:
I could have heard wrong but thought McClain stated on 610 that Texans like Hill both his size, speed & coach-ability but after combine won't be there in 2nd & could be targeted in first :specnatz:
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I see Hill as more of a 2nd to 3rd guy, he is still a project for many teams, and using such a high pick could really hurt.
 
Of all the spots we have a need, LG, WR2, center, CB2, NT and maybe OLB all but WR offer a starter ahead of draft pick that allows a #1 pick to not have pressure to start. Some could argue that Walter could be #2 WR and allow Hill (if selected) to train behind him. I just do not see that. A WR selection in first or second should compete for starter minutes, imo. The talk and goal has been to draft someone to play opposite AJ.

A high potential non starter WR should be taken later such as Jordan White or Broyles; not #26.
 
The Cush said:
Not knowing anything about this guy and after reading this thread I saw a guy over at BRB putting a scouting report on him. They evaluated him for his game against UNC and had this to say..


http://www.battleredblog.com/2012/2/27/2827529/stephen-hill

It was just one game, but they came away with the same negative impressions many people on here are saying.
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I disagree with most of their takes.
Except for the drop, there were a lot to like about his game.
One needs to pay more attention to the details when scouting a player, IMHO.
I watched another game last night.
Hopefully, I can come up with a report tonight.
He has pretty good route running ability already, there I said it.

First impressions (after watching 3 games and highlights of 4 other games): I can see him going late in the first or somewhere in the second round.
 
76Texan said:
I disagree with most of their takes.
Except for the drop, there were a lot to like about his game.
One needs to pay more attention to the details when scouting a player, IMHO.
I watched another game last night.
Hopefully, I can come up with a report tonight.
He has pretty good route running ability already, there I said it.

First impressions (after watching 3 games and highlights of 4 other games): I can see him going late in the first or somewhere in the second round.
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76 aren't most if not all his routes straight and deep? Usually left uncovered which adds to his avg. Reminds me some of an early career Bob Hayes Dallas in that respect.
 
LonerATO said:
I see Hill as more of a 2nd to 3rd guy, he is still a project for many teams, and using such a high pick could really hurt.
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He probably should be a 2nd or 3rd round guy. But somebody will fall in love with his athleticism and take him in the 1st. It happens every year.

I think the guy is a tremendous athlete. But he is a project. I don't like him for the Texans unless we are taking two WRs in this draft.
 
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Everybody has their own opinion. Which makes this forum go around & around. To me there is too much focus on the first pick, always! I'm already tired of the debate & would just accept Stephen Hill now & be done with it so could focus on other players/positions. As is custom around here a lot of people are going to be upset with whoever Texans select anyway. For those negative on Hill have your crying towels ready come April 26th around 10:30 pm. :cry2:
 
beerlover said:
Everybody has their own opinion. Which makes this forum go around & around. To me there is too much focus on the first pick, always! I'm already tired of the debate & would just accept Stephen Hill now & be done with it so could focus on other players/positions. As is custom around here a lot of people are going to be upset with whoever Texans select anyway. For those negative on Hill have your crying towels ready come April 26th around 10:30 pm. :cry2:
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Scout has Hill rated as the 7th best WR behind both Sanu & Randle. How would you feel if the Texans selected Hill before both?

Scout.com doesn't list Hill in the top 50 players. Wouldn't you be upset if the Texans picked someone not in the top 50 at 26?
 
I don't dislike Hill, but rather see him in a pack of WRs with 2nd round grades.

I'd prefer to nab a DT as there will be very good relative talent available at 26 this year.

But I can't decide until knowing if we keep Myers (I'd go OL, then) and if we keep Mario (opens option for LBs who I haven't focused on.) IMO, losing Myers kills us -- and Green Bay has to be darned tempting.
 
Playoffs said:
I don't dislike Hill, but rather see him in a pack of WRs with 2nd round grades.

I'd prefer to nab a DT as there will be very good relative talent available at 26 this year.

But I can't decide until knowing if we keep Myers (I'd go OL, then) and if we keep Mario (opens option for LBs who I haven't focused on.) IMO, losing Myers kills us -- and Green Bay has to be darned tempting.
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I'd be thrilled if we drop out of the first all together, resulting in 3 second round picks..... using two of them on WR
 
If this guy is available when we pick in the first should be take him? His measurables are amazing but he seems to be unpolished as a receiver/route runner. Personally, I hope Dontari Poe is still available but I doubt it.
 
axisv said:
If this guy is available when we pick in the first should be take him? His measurables are amazing but he seems to be unpolished as a receiver/route runner. Personally, I hope Dontari Poe is still available but I doubt it.
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If our only options are Hill and Poe then I hope like hell that we trade back.
 
NastyNate said:
He'd probably have 48 videos. There are 100 Al Davis' in this thread right meow.
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This. Speed is less important that the ability to get seperation and sure hands. I hate the 40. The only people it is actually relevant for are returners. They are the only ones who truly get a head start. Burst, change of direction, use of body to shield defenders, catching away from your body with soft hands, change of direction. All more important.
 
I'm not buying it. No matter what the sport, players who come out of nowhere like this due to combine results typically never work out like teams want to.

Texans don't need a project right now, and Hill would definitely be a project. They need someone who can contribute now should the injury bug settle in with Andre again. Even with Walter and possibly Jones on the team, this rookie (if we take a WR early) will be expected to pick things up quick, because we've got playoffs on the mind, and we don't have time we used to in the past to wait on players.

It might even be a smokescreen by the Texans, trying to hype Hill so another WR they want drops to them.
 
BigBull17 said:
This. Speed is less important that the ability to get seperation and sure hands. I hate the 40. The only people it is actually relevant for are returners. They are the only ones who truly get a head start. Burst, change of direction, use of body to shield defenders, catching away from your body with soft hands, change of direction. All more important.
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catching away from your body & body control you say?

107842886_crop_650x440.jpg


ncf_g_ntoon_sy_300.jpg


Lol, i know you guys are tired of me talking about this kid, but i think he's going to be a steal for whomever picks him up.
 
Mr teX said:
catching away from your body & body control you say?

107842886_crop_650x440.jpg


ncf_g_ntoon_sy_300.jpg


Lol, i know you guys are tired of me talking about this kid, but i think he's going to be a steal for whomever picks him up.
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I will not be tired of you talking about him. What I also like about him is that he is the son of former Jets WR Al Toon, a very good WR in his day. Not that I think blood lines will equal to a great WR but typically the kids whose father played pro ball before tend to know how to be a professional and you don't have to worry about behavior issues.

Secondly, we have yet to be disappointed from any of our draft picks from Wisconsin. Even Garrett Graham, in his limited duty has shown flashes and I think will be a contributor this year. When Watt was drafted there was an interview with the head coach and he was asked why has Wisconsin put out some good pros. His response was "because we play football over here. We play it the wya it is supposed to be played. Not with all these zone read offenses and flashy defenses."

I think Toon is going to give you a very solid, productive receiver. Is he able to take teams off AJ, I don't know. Is he a first rounder, I don't know. But he hasn't shown anything to make you say no either.
 
El Tejano said:
I will not be tired of you talking about him. What I also like about him is that he is the son of former Jets WR Al Toon, a very good WR in his day. Not that I think blood lines will equal to a great WR but typically the kids whose father played pro ball before tend to know how to be a professional and you don't have to worry about behavior issues.

Secondly, we have yet to be disappointed from any of our draft picks from Wisconsin. Even Garrett Graham, in his limited duty has shown flashes and I think will be a contributor this year. When Watt was drafted there was an interview with the head coach and he was asked why has Wisconsin put out some good pros. His response was "because we play football over here. We play it the wya it is supposed to be played. Not with all these zone read offenses and flashy defenses."

I think Toon is going to give you a very solid, productive receiver. Is he able to take teams off AJ, I don't know. Is he a first rounder, I don't know. But he hasn't shown anything to make you say no either.
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yeah, i just don't understand how teams continue to let the 40 time ruin the whole draft scouting process. The league & its history are riddled with guys that don't have what you would call elite speed. but those same guys show a knack for being able to get open. Jerry Rice, Micheal Irvin, Rod Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker & the 2 guys i most associate this kid to..Anquan Boldin & Marques Colston.

I really hope we're seriously targeting this kid somewhere in the 1st or 2nd. My only fear is that SF, Tenn, Jax, TB or worse ......NE / NO snatch him up before us.
 
Mr teX said:
yeah, i just don't understand how teams continue to let the 40 time ruin the whole draft scouting process. The league & its history are riddled with guys that don't have what you would call elite speed. but those same guys show a knack for being able to get open. Jerry Rice, Micheal Irvin, Rod Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, Wes Welker & the 2 guys i most associate this kid to..Anquan Boldin & Marques Colston.

I really hope we're seriously targeting this kid somewhere in the 1st or 2nd. My only fear is that SF, Tenn, Jax, TB or worse ......NE / NO snatch him up before us.
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Agreed about the speed thing

Toon is a little too injury pron for my liking. He should be availabe and a bargain in the 3rd/4th rd.

Another guy that uyou're describing that I like alot is Danny Coale. My #1 guy for the Texans is Randle. He ran a 4.55 be is much faster than that in pads. In/Out of his breaks.
 
thunderkyss said:
Scout.com doesn't list Hill in the top 50 players. Wouldn't you be upset if the Texans picked someone not in the top 50 at 26?
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They're not real scouts. They're internet scouts. And, they're not the Texans scouts. So no, I wouldn't be upset if the Texans didn't draft off of an internet draft board.
 
Lucky said:
They're not real scouts. They're internet scouts. And, they're not the Texans scouts. So no, I wouldn't be upset if the Texans didn't draft off of an internet draft board.
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Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32? Anyone have him rated higher than Floyd? or Sanu?

I like that he is athletic.. & his combine numbers show he's explosive. If our coaches believe they can "correct" his catching mechanics, I have no problem drafting this guy, even with our first. Especially if his run blocking (from the receiver position) is as polished as has been mentioned here.

You can teach a person how to catch, how to run routes. You can't teach 4.3 speed, or 6'4", or 215lbs. This is freak territory.... elite athlete. The coaches have to do their job to make him an elite football player.
 
thunderkyss said:
Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32? Anyone have him rated higher than Floyd? or Sanu?
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http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/mock-drafts/chad-reuter/90101

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012_1.php

Peter King: The receiver order: Looks like Justin Blackmon and Michael Floyd of Notre Dame will be the only wideouts in round one, unless Hill sneaks in there. Reuben Randle of LSU and Rutgers' Mohamed Sanu (the Bucs and new coach Greg Schiano want him) could go 4-5 unless Baylor's Kendall Wright overcomes a lousy combine.
 
thunderkyss said:
Heyward-Bey didn't get overrated..... he got Al Davis'd..... I think that's a different case all together.
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The top 2 WRs from the '09 draft have been Hakeem Nicks and Mike Wallace. Wallace ran a 4.33 forty at the combine, .03 seconds slower than Heyward-Bey. Wallace's stats in college were similar to Heyward-Bey. His speed was similar to Heyward-Bey. Yet, Wallace lasted until the 3rd round to Pittsburgh. Had Davis drafted Wallace in the top 10, rather than Heyward-Bey, draftniks would have screamed "Reach!". And he would have come up with one of the premier deep threats in the league.

Lesson? It doesn't matter if a team drafts off past performance or athletic ability or some combo of the two. What matters is getting the pick right. It's the only thing that counts.
 
steelbtexan said:
Agreed about the speed thing

Toon is a little too injury pron for my liking. He should be availabe and a bargain in the 3rd/4th rd.

Another guy that uyou're describing that I like alot is Danny Coale. My #1 guy for the Texans is Randle. He ran a 4.55 be is much faster than that in pads. In/Out of his breaks.
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thats the other part. Some people run fast in under armor gear but lose a lot of speed with pads on. Some lose little or none. Kendal Wright rana a slow 40, but I watched almost every Baylor game this year and he plays VERY fast.
 
thunderkyss said:
Scout has Hill rated as the 7th best WR behind both Sanu & Randle. How would you feel if the Texans selected Hill before both?

Scout.com doesn't list Hill in the top 50 players. Wouldn't you be upset if the Texans picked someone not in the top 50 at 26?
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I'm sure those guys speak on behalf of NFL teams...:kubepalm:

CBS has him ranked in the top 5
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft

NFL Draft Scout has him ranked in the top 5 as well
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=WR&draftyear=2012&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC

Scout.com apparently hasn't even updated anything since the combine. I heard somewhere that teams were turned off of Alshon Jeffery after his interviews. Not sure how much weight that carries. But Hill's draft stock seemed to have improved after the combine (from workouts and interviews).
 
steelbtexan said:
Agreed about the speed thing

Toon is a little too injury pron for my liking. He should be availabe and a bargain in the 3rd/4th rd.Another guy that uyou're describing that I like alot is Danny Coale. My #1 guy for the Texans is Randle. He ran a 4.55 be is much faster than that in pads. In/Out of his breaks.
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Curious, if a player is injury prone why is he a value at any round? Unless you're saying the risk of injury is proportional to the pick?
 
thunderkyss said:
Does anyone have him ranked in the top 32? Anyone have him rated higher than Floyd? or Sanu?

I like that he is athletic.. & his combine numbers show he's explosive. If our coaches believe they can "correct" his catching mechanics, I have no problem drafting this guy, even with our first. Especially if his run blocking (from the receiver position) is as polished as has been mentioned here.

You can teach a person how to catch, how to run routes. You can't teach 4.3 speed, or 6'4", or 215lbs. This is freak territory.... elite athlete. The coaches have to do their job to make him an elite football player.
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TK are you saying everyone but JJ and Trindon Holliday?
 
BigBull17 said:
thats the other part. Some people run fast in under armor gear but lose a lot of speed with pads on. Some lose little or none. Kendal Wright rana a slow 40, but I watched almost every Baylor game this year and he plays VERY fast.
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Let's not forget an electronic system clocked Wright at 4.45. 610 KILT mentioned that Tuesday morning.
 
Lucky said:
The top 2 WRs from the '09 draft have been Hakeem Nicks and Mike Wallace. Wallace ran a 4.33 forty at the combine, .03 seconds slower than Heyward-Bey. Wallace's stats in college were similar to Heyward-Bey. His speed was similar to Heyward-Bey. Yet, Wallace lasted until the 3rd round to Pittsburgh. Had Davis drafted Wallace in the top 10, rather than Heyward-Bey, draftniks would have screamed "Reach!". And he would have come up with one of the premier deep threats in the league.

Lesson? It doesn't matter if a team drafts off past performance or athletic ability or some combo of the two. What matters is getting the pick right. It's the only thing that counts.
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Or..... he would have got Jamarcus Russelled; he would not have had much success, the coaches didn't "seem" to care, the players didn't "seem" to care; Wallace may very well have been out of the league by now.

Heyward-bey may have ended up being the Steelers third round pick & 31 teams would be salivating at the thoughts of picking him up in FA while the Steelers try to find as much money as they can to sign him to a long term deal.

I personally think we've got good coaches here. I think the culture we have in Houston inspires everyone to be all they can be. I would have no problem bringing that kind of talent into this team, because you're not going to get it in the 3rd....
 
thunderkyss said:
Or..... he would have got Jamarcus Russelled; he would not have had much success, the coaches didn't "seem" to care, the players didn't "seem" to care; Wallace may very well have been out of the league by now.
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I do believe there is a nature vs nurture component in evaluating draft choices. Though your example is beyond extreme. Asomugha excelled in Oakland despite the chaos around him. Talent and desire eventually shine through.

I think a team should lean to drafting to their system, as long as they aren't passing on an extraordinary talent. If a player is great, you need to find a place for him in your system. Andre Johnson would be great in any system. Patrick Willis, the same. You find a place for a player like that. Otherwise, draft the best player that fits your organization.
 
Evan Silva ‏ @evansilva Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Scouts say Stephen Hill is "similar" to Demaryius Thomas coming out of #GeorgiaTech. Hill a "tad better route runner": bit.ly/AmTEhL
 
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