Mangler
Toro de España
I believe Cal will start having some serious thoughts creeping through his mind. Will he do something about it? Who knows?
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State of the O-line
- Thread starter jradMIT
- Start date
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Football is grueling.
It's even tougher when you're getting your ass kicked.
0 chance Brady is still playing if the Patriots weren't as good as they've been.
It's ridiculous how many OL free agents & high draft picks we've used on OL in the last 4 years.
Sooner or later, you've to realize it's not just the talent acquisition.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Yep.
With just my novice talent eval ability I just find it hard to believe all these guys have been this bad.
I dont think that the group of guys we've had as a whole have been much worse talent wise than what Kubiak had to work with. Difference is they identified players that had traits to play in their system and then had good coaching to develop those players.
banned1976
sleeper mode
So it’s bad luck? Or inability to evaluate talent? Or a combination of several different contributors? I’ll go with the 3rd possibility. It’s not just coaching. I’ve watched XSF and he looked just as bad as a Cowboy.
Whatever it is, it needs to get fixed quickly.
That's certainly fair and acccuate crticism.
Thing is after David Carrs time here in Houston Watson is starting to be a deja vu experience and Cal has been around as long as we have.
banned1976
sleeper mode
From McCown on Twitter:
Lessons from the Andrew Luck situation? You better not futz around with your good young quarterback and take it for granted. Don’t waste time with Chuck Pagano. Don’t pretend everything is fine because you won 11 or 12 games anyway. Yes, Texans, this is a bit of a subtwwet.
banned1976
sleeper mode
Yeah, true. Watson is definitely not helping himself out.
Texansballer74
The Marine
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
So frustrating.
The unit where continuity is most crucial to team success and he rotates positions and lineups like he's just throwing **** against the wall.
Third week of pre season and it doesn't feel like they know who's starting where except for RT and apparently Kalil is locked in for some unknown reason.
Is Pagano available? He'd be an upgrade.
texanhead08
All Pro
That is frightening to even think that but it could be true and I want Obrien gone yesterday.
Texansballer74
The Marine
I meant to say Davenport was catching a lot of wrongful heat. Obrien is getting what he deserves. I've been saying what you just said for since day one. For some reason he thinks this is either high school or college football.
But hey, his faithful internet Warriors will come up with all types of excuses. Or say, we're hating for speaking facts.
You never know. There are a lot of surprise cuts every year and guys become available we never thought would be free agents. Maybe a rookie beat them out or they just cost too much, whatever the case may be. I think theres still a big move out there that we’re going to make. Especially with Lamar going down
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Texans Oline has had guys bouncing in and out of the starting rotation and guys playing different positions.
No continuity for the unit or individuals. Two guys slated to start at OT who haven’t been able to stay healthy--and really haven't been that good when they have been, a rookie who was drafted as a tackle and will likely be playing guard, ???? @ center, ???? @ RG.
???? @ anyones ability to play any of those positions effectively.
I will be surprised if this group is not destroyed on Monday night.
Watson and The RBs better have their dodge game ready. This is really how you get players hurt. I hope like hell I'm wrong and this isnt going to be as ugly as I think it is.
No continuity for the unit or individuals. Two guys slated to start at OT who haven’t been able to stay healthy--and really haven't been that good when they have been, a rookie who was drafted as a tackle and will likely be playing guard, ???? @ center, ???? @ RG.
???? @ anyones ability to play any of those positions effectively.
I will be surprised if this group is not destroyed on Monday night.
Watson and The RBs better have their dodge game ready. This is really how you get players hurt. I hope like hell I'm wrong and this isnt going to be as ugly as I think it is.
Max
Veteran
This is the play Miller gets hurt on. Watch how slow Davenport gets off the ball. It's the difference between trailing the defender basically untouched and getting into him and redirecting his path/slowing him down. Martin getting blown back 2 yards isn't helping anything either as it vacates the space Davenport's man is able to shoot into when the defender should be running into a pile there if Martin can hold his man. Put Davenport and Martin on the bench please.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Texans already lived that precautionary tale when they destroyed Carr.....their first franchise QB. This franchise has learned shite since day one. It's been obvious each and every day since inception.
They hire stupid FO personnel, they hire stupid head coaches, and they duck up drafts as pure habit. Did I miss anymore of the obvious signs associated with a piss-poor franchise?
I just don't see it that way. Look at the line before the snap. That dude is inside Davenport's right shoulder. For Davenport to get a good block on him, Fulton has to jab him, hold him up for a second so Davenport can engage properly.
But Fulton goes straight to the 2nd level block & does a poor job of it. No jab on the DL, & barely a speed bump to Jaylon Smith.
Nick Martin, I really don't know how much better he can do that. He's got to snap the ball, good exchange, & block. He's going to get blown back a little. I'm just not ready to say that's horrible. Sharping & Henderson did fine there.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Dude was in the gap. So how would any tackle be able to recover when the defender already had him beat way before the play happened. Plus he went straight down the line. The entire right side got held up. In which Miller had no running room. This was a poorly constructed play and clearly a communication issue. Martin the Center should've recognized what was going on and called out the blocking assignments. The guard should've blocked this guy.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Indeed Martin was clearly not ready but that particular play shouldn't be placed on Davenport.
Number19
Hall of Fame
In our offense, I don't believe the OC makes this call. It's the QB's call.
I'm not sure who it's on but I've been saying Davenport should be getting the most snaps at LT since we didn't find anyone better. Apparently he was getting snaps at rt
Texansballer74
The Marine
It's called getting Bill Obrien'd.
The lineup should've been the players who should be starting week 1.
Henderson RT
Scharping RG ( he looked terrible last night)
Fulton C
Kelemete( until Howard is ready )
Johnson ( until Khalil is ready unfortunately)
You and I are in agreement because we understands the importance of continuity, chemistry and cohesiveness. Something Obrien has failed miserably to grasp since day one.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying other members doesn't know.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
This is what ya'll wanted right? ..more of running your speedy RB off tackle b/c ya'll were tired of seeing Miller being run straight up the middle. Well , as some here tried to point out, now ya'll see why it wasn't/hasn't been run more often.
As far as the o-line, Martin was going to be the starter and hadn't even played in the preseason...he needed to be swapped in over Fulton at center b/c he needed the reps. Just a guess, but i'm fairly sure Howard probably would've been starting at LG where he's been all preseason if he hadn't broken his finger the game before...SO you either put Fulton there, or you put in in where Sharping has been playing the entire preseason. Scharping & Henderson were also playing where they've been playing all season. The only real change that was going to upset the current chemistry was putting in Davenport over Johnson. But even that shouldn't have been that big of deal considering that Davenport is 1 of the few o-linemen that has starts & experience....(& starts at LT in a hostile enviornment no less) under his belt. Ok, i can see somewhat why folks blast BoB for that. At the end of the day though, This is why people hate the preseason..1 damn play in a meaningless game can sink a season.
As far as the o-line, Martin was going to be the starter and hadn't even played in the preseason...he needed to be swapped in over Fulton at center b/c he needed the reps. Just a guess, but i'm fairly sure Howard probably would've been starting at LG where he's been all preseason if he hadn't broken his finger the game before...SO you either put Fulton there, or you put in in where Sharping has been playing the entire preseason. Scharping & Henderson were also playing where they've been playing all season. The only real change that was going to upset the current chemistry was putting in Davenport over Johnson. But even that shouldn't have been that big of deal considering that Davenport is 1 of the few o-linemen that has starts & experience....(& starts at LT in a hostile enviornment no less) under his belt. Ok, i can see somewhat why folks blast BoB for that. At the end of the day though, This is why people hate the preseason..1 damn play in a meaningless game can sink a season.
Max
Veteran
I zoomed in and it does appear that the defender is inside shoulder so I agree that Fulton needed to slow him down. I'm willing to back off on Davenport on that play even though he's slow off the ball. I made the point last week about Fulton standing his ground better than Martin at center and this clip is another example of that. I don't agree that your center should lose 2 yards on a 1 on 1 block.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
&
Lol, so you're perfectly fine throwing a rookie in Howard out at LT from the jump to protect DW4's blindside, but your veteran starting center you want to "ease" back in against back ups?
What happened to Miller sucks, but it was also the 2nd play of the game..& could've easily happened 2nd play of the game in the regular season even with a great o-line and even with the consistency and chemistry that everyone is advocating that BoB should've done.
Hate to say it, but Watson getting blasted on the sack fumble wasn't on the o-line & it wasn't on BoB & his supposedly "long developing" route plays. There were literally 7 people held in for protection on that play against a 5 man rush. Only 3 guys went out in route...Nuk, Carter & Hiigdon. DW4 had plenty of time to read the defense & him getting blasted was on him. On that play, he had Karan Higdon on the check down literally sitting right in front of him for an easy 4+ yard gain & he chose to hold the ball looking for the deep comeback from Nuk. He has to learn to check down & live for another play.
https://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2019...oys?icampaign=scoreStrip-globalNav-2019082451
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It's hard for me to get upset over which lineman didn't start at which position. Because, I don't think there is any combination from the talent available that will make this work. Put the RT at LT, the RG at C, the C on a bus, it doesn't matter. It's like rearranging the seats on the Titanic.
The mantra has been, "Don't go after O-linemen in free agency. They're overpaid. We have to sign this guy and that guy and the other guy. We can't be in cap hell." Huh, a lot of players not on rookie contracts are overpaid. If you draft guys that aren't any good, that means you have to pay for guys that are available. The Texans can't lineup a wad of cap space at LT to protect Watson. So no worthwhile FAs, no good draft choices, no chance for Watson.
This isn't working. Someone that knows how to make it work is needed. 3 years before yesterday. Until that guy is found, continue to discuss the best place to put the lounge chairs on the lido deck.
The mantra has been, "Don't go after O-linemen in free agency. They're overpaid. We have to sign this guy and that guy and the other guy. We can't be in cap hell." Huh, a lot of players not on rookie contracts are overpaid. If you draft guys that aren't any good, that means you have to pay for guys that are available. The Texans can't lineup a wad of cap space at LT to protect Watson. So no worthwhile FAs, no good draft choices, no chance for Watson.
This isn't working. Someone that knows how to make it work is needed. 3 years before yesterday. Until that guy is found, continue to discuss the best place to put the lounge chairs on the lido deck.
I never said Howard should start at LT. I have consistently said they should continue with the starters from the end of last year, when they looked ok, and develop the rookies behind them, and start them when the are ready. I also said they should have traded up for Dillard and signed Nsekhe.
That terrible play with guys playing out of position or just getting back from injury got Miller blasted. That's on OBrien. Not a hard case to make.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
My bad. Also, noone was playing out of position. Fulton has starts at LG,RG and Center in his career. So there's really no case for you. What happened to Miller is about as random as it gets. If its just a stop for no gain, you guys likely aren't even talking about it. It's about as much BoB's fault for putting his starting center out there for some much needed live reps... as it is Martin's for not sealing his block a little bit better.......... as it is the NFL for making teams play 4 meaningless games instead of 2.
Martin has barely played at all due to injury. I think he should start but thought they should ease him back in. He looked like Kalil getting pushed back so far.
Yes Fulton can play LG, but he's played almost exclusively rg and c this off-season. He flat out didn't block anyone on that play. Where was he going?
Been saying this for the last 3 yrs.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Martin sucked on that play. That’s pretty much the end of that for me.
With Davenport and Fulton there’s a few things I see. First, it does look like Fulton gave a jab but he certainly did not wait until Davenport took over the block before heading to the 2nd level.
I think that is on both of them. Davenport is way too slow out of his stance. He knows the fugging snap count and he’s letting defensive players get a jump on him. Part of the reason I didn’t like the Davenport pick is because I don’t think he dominated the level of competition he went against like he should have. I don’t like his feet and I think he moves like an ogre out there.
Fulton has been playing next to other guys lately so it’s going to take an adjustment to needing to slow down a bit to let Davenport’s slow ass get in better position. Bouncing guys around so they can’t really get in a groove at one spot doesn’t help.
Have to take care of first level first, but don’t expect too many big runs since the longer Fulton spends with the down lineman the less of a chance he has at getting an angle to block that LB.
Either way, because Davenport can’t get over quick enough to over take a guy one count inside of him you’re probably going to have someone getting a free shot at the ball carrier. That’s a pretty standard zone block right there. They didn’t ask Davenport or Fulton to do anything heroic. Neither one really did a good job. Fulton went too fast...that’s correctable. Davenport being a slug...I’m not sure that is at this point.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Disagree about Martin. I would agree with you if he'd had taken part of any of the joint practices. But yesterday was literally the last time he was going to get any meaningful & quality reps that would be anywhere close to the type of game speed he was to face in the regular season. As few as they were, you needed to get him in there to get them.
Yes you are correct about Fulton as he has almost exclusively played RG for us. But i'm fairly sure he wasn't getting very many reps anywhere b/c of Mancz at center and then working Scharping in at RG. Hell, Fulton only got on the field with the starters period b/c Mancz went down in GB. He got dropped in at center in an emergent situation & I don't recall much outrage here when that happened..Nor when he started at center against Detroit. So again, how are you comfy with a guy whose 2nd best position is at center just being inserted randomly & tasked to protect DW4..... but uncomfortable with the guy you acknowledge as better than him at center being inserted back at his natural position right away? C'mon man, you're not making sense.
Dejaview
Wahoo Sabi
If we do nothing else on the OLine this year but one thing I want that one thing to not be Martin at C. I believe the infrastructure of any team is the middle of the O and D line....and go big at that point. Don’t know if anyone bothered to watch but #72 on Dallas...Frederick..neutralized our interior D.on one play he was pushing two Texans upfield. Martin was going the other way.
Fulton played zero snaps at LG all of 2018. He was playing at RG until Martin got hurt, then he moved to center.
With Martin back they put him at...LG!? Wtf?
Kelemente started at LG last year and should have been in there.
If you want to give Fulton random snaps there do it in practice or at the end of games where there is less risk of injury
Tweet from @riversmccown: Last night the Houston offensive line was literally preventing players from getting to their routes https://t.co/G0dE82SxVE
Still sucks
That's a Kubiak thing. Since BO'b has been here, the Center does not call out protection, slides, or adjustments. That's all on the QB.
I think.
You're starting from the wrong place. You've got Martin at Center because BO'b says so. & that's one of the biggest problems.
We've got three years of evidence that says Martin is not a starting Center in this league. Fulton should have been at Center. Fulton should have practiced all week at Center. Not Kelemente.
Then you can start Kelemente at LG, the position he played all last season next to Davenport, or you start Martin at LG to see if you can salvage his career.
Then if the guy he's supposed to jab at the line goes on to take your starting RB out for the season you can say, well... it was his first time playing Guard.
This is definitely not a, "This is what y'all wanted!!" moment. None of that was what any of us had been asking for.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Another problem right there. And Watson didn't recognize it either, something we all said he needs to get better at.
Tweet from @riversmccown: I don't even know who to spotlight on this play. Just ... what? https://t.co/AdGmccWIBj
Tweet from @riversmccown: Just Nick Martin. Just from the first two series. Has he played offensive line before? https://t.co/w4Jwypfp0T
Tweet from @riversmccown: Just Nick Martin. Just from the first two series. Has he played offensive line before? https://t.co/w4Jwypfp0T
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I'm thinking Kalil , Martin , and Devlin are Bill's biggest blunder ( this year ) . On the play Miller got hurt , Martin was driven into the backfield . The guy who hit Miller was the right DT who went unblocked .
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
There has been virtually little to no tinkering with the right side of the line. Scharping and Henderson have been the guys starting all preseason.I think they're comfy there. The tinkering has been mostly on the left. & that's b/c they have a log jam on that side in terms of who they believe can play over there. What has become more obvious is they more often than not, don't view Kelemete as 1 of their best 5. This is further bolstered by the wide speculation that Kelemete was going to be the odd man out by just about everyone who has put out a 53 man roster prediction.
Fulton on the other hand has shown to be quality depth at RG and center...& also has experience at LG. He is more often than not one of their most valuable quality 5-6 guys. They know what they have with him at RG.....So rather than upsetting Scharping's development & chemistry on the right side by placing Fulton there....where he's been all season, they stuck Fulton at LG to see if he can provide quality depth at LG as well behind Howard in the event he may have to slide out to LT.
So to me, them sticking him over at LG is more a referendum on Mancz, Kelemete & Rankin guys who either have shown to be rather limited in what they can do &/or are always hurt...pretty sure Kelemete got hurt again last night....Mancz got hurt in the GB game. I think them slotting Davenport in at LT says a little something about how they may proceed with the Kalil/Williams situation. Davenport's been in the doghouse all preseason & u would think that him being given the opportunity to start in the most important preseason game should have lit a fire under him. But if yesterday was the best he could muster after being put on notice with them bringing in Kalil, drafting Howard and giving Johnson starters reps, is he really worth keeping on the roster at this point?
Do i agree with it, not really, but i also don't think it is as big of a deal either. This is what the preseason is for & no matter how much consistency and "geling" they get in reps in the preaseason, there's still usually a issues during the 1st 3 games of the season...& that's for every team really.