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State of the O-line

steelbtexan said:
I like this, But Rankin isn't a LT, Neither is Davenport. Gotta spend the $$$$ or draft capital to find a LT. If they dont sign Brown, the best hope will be to trade up ahead of a teams like the Browns/Vikes and draft the best LT on the board. Hopefully Williams falls., but he ain't getting past Kubiak/Dennison so Gaine is going to have to trade up to get him. Luckily Gaine has the draft capital to make this move.
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Dillard going to Jags in recent mocks - that's clearly out of reach for us.
 
fll article on the trade. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-winners-in-oliver-vernon-kevin-zeitler-swap/

Let's grade the trade.

New York Giants: A-
  • G Kevin Zeitler
  • No. 155
I really like this deal for the Giants. The financial ramifications and the pick swap are the only things keeping their grade from being a pure A.

Zeitler is one of the best players in the league at his position (which happens to be a position of major need for the Giants), and while he is under contract for two more years after this one, none of his future salary is guaranteed, so New York can elect to cut ties at any time without taking any additional dead money on the books. Zeitler counts for $10 million against the cap this year, which is less than the $15.5 million base salary Vernon was set to draw, but the trade of Vernon accelerates an $8 million dead money charge onto their books.
Let's grade the trade. e best players in the league at his position (which happens to be a position of major need for the Giants), and while he is under contract for two more years after this one, none of his future salary is guaranteed, so New York can elect to cut ties at any time without taking any additional dead money on the books. Zeitler counts for $10 million against the cap this year, which is less than the $15.5 million base salary Vernon was set to draw, but the trade of Vernon accelerates an $8 million dead money charge onto their books.

Cleveland Browns: B+
  • Edge Olivier Vernon
  • No. 132
Vernon is in a far better position to tap into his upside in Cleveland than he was in New York. Playing on the same defensive line as Myles Garrett and Larry Ogunjobi should allow him cleaner lanes into the backfield than he has been afforded over the past two years. He still has the ability to get to the quarterback when afforded proper time and space, and he should get more of both in Cleveland than if he stayed with the Giants.

The Browns add some money to their books with this deal, but they were among the teams most flush with cap space and they badly needed another edge rusher to play across from Garrett so it should prove worth it in the end. And if it's not, they can move on with Vernon with relative ease at the end of this season.

Zeitler is an excellent player and surely both Baker Mayfield and Nick Chubbbenefitted from his presence, but the Browns are already spending a lot of money on the offensive line (especially on the interior) and they have a replacement waiting in the wings in Austin Corbett, whom they drafted in the second round last year. Add in the pick swap and the Browns, like the Giants, appear to have done quite well for themselves here.
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Not going to read all the post but has anyone mentioned signing George Fant as a FA ? He was on his way to being the Seahawks LT until he tore his ACL . That’s when the hawks traded for Brown .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Not going to read all the post but has anyone mentioned signing George Fant as a FA ? He was on his way to being the Seahawks LT until he tore his ACL . That’s when the hawks traded for Brown .
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No, but looked him up on PFR. Article there said PFF had Duane Brown as the 5th best LT last season. Just an aside.
 
infantrycak said:
No, but looked him up on PFR. Article there said PFF had Duane Brown as the 5th best LT last season. Just an aside.
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I remember Fant was talked about as another Jason Peters then in the same game , blew out his knee . The players were sick cause he made himself into that caliber of player coming from a small college and playing badketball and football .
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Just a thought.....Texans trade for Zeitler and he settles the LG or RG position. As for the LT position, Rankin was injured throughout the entire off-season which really put him behind the development curve. He was drafted to play LT. Could Rankin possibly be ready for another shot at LT with a full NFL season and a 2019 off-season under his belt? I would also expect the addition of Zietler could be a tremendous help to either Rankin or even Risner if the Texans decided to flip Fulton and Zeitler. This alludes to the fact that I would be falling back on my favorite two targets in the draft to make up the difference.

The OL would be given a complete makeover with several affordable seasons ahead of them.

Starters
LT- Rankin / LG- Zeitler / C- McCoy (R) / RG- Fulton / RT- Risner (R)

Or they could try:
LT- Rankin / LG- Fulton / C- McCoy (R) / RG- Zeitler / RT- Risner (R)

Backups
OT- Davenport and Henderson / OG- Kelemete and Mancz / C- Martin and Mancz

I'm fairly certain McCoy could beat Martin for the starting position if truly given a chance to compete and likewise, I think Risner could beat Henderson for the starting RT position.

Again, this OL wouldn't break the bank and could easily be maintained for the next 3-5 years. It could be beneficial when the Texans decide to give Watson his new contract.
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Dang Opt another freaking makeover. Are we going to have to do this every year bwhahaha.

I'm sorry I would not put Rankin out of position like that again. He imo is not suited to play Left Tackle in the NFL.
 
powda said:
I understand your desire to horde picks for lotto tickets - but frankly, we've busted on so many 2's and 3's I'd be rather just go with the real deal.
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Shouldn't be no more busted 2s & 3s now that we have a GM that knows exactly what our head coach needs to be able to coach. Just look at what happened with the 4 new acquisitions on the OL last year.

Never mind that the one who performed the best was the one who got hurt week one. Never mind that the one with the 2nd best performance (a third round pick) was played out of position, then regulated to the bench once he showed promise.

The future is bright on Kirby.
 
infantrycak said:
2-3 year developmental player is what Lance Zierlein said in his prospect profile for NFL.com.

That's not to say he shouldn't be upgraded but players do get better in their 3rd year & specifically that was his projected path.
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You act like he's playing TE, the hardest position to learn in the NFL. He's playing LT. A year of spot duty as a rookie & he ought to be ready to play against the best of the best with a backup quality guard playing next to him.
 
Wish we would have gotten Marcus Gilbert for a 6th. The bust rate that late in the draft is so high and i’d rather bet on a quality vet RT coming back from injury and contributing than a 6th round dart throw.

It seems like solid vets are dealt for late round picks a lot nowadays. Arizona took advantage this time but Pats have been using this cheat code for years.

If I were a GM i’d be dealing a 6th or 7th for a vet on the outs with his team every year!
 
Texansballer74 said:
Dang Opt another freaking makeover. Are we going to have to do this every year bwhahaha.

I'm sorry I would not put Rankin out of position like that again. He imo is not suited to play Left Tackle in the NFL.
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I know but what were their intentions when they drafted him? They drafted a LT and realized his injury would keep him out of off-season development. So he never got to develop at the position. Like Davenport, give him an off-season to see if the draft hunch was correct.
 
DocBar said:
The Browns have a stupid amount of cap room, so that rings hollow to me in both cases.
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They drafted Austin Corbett with a high 2nd last year. With Joe Thomas sudden retirement they tried to play him out of position at LT with poor results. He was a guard prospect (and a good one) coming out and they must feel good about him as Zeitler’s replacement. They think they fill a need on defense without taking much if any hit on the OL with Corbett taking over.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Wish we would have gotten Marcus Gilbert for a 6th. The bust rate that late in the draft is so high and i’d rather bet on a quality vet RT coming back from injury and contributing than a 6th round dart throw.

It seems like solid vets are dealt for late round picks a lot nowadays. Arizona took advantage this time but Pats have been using this cheat code for years.

If I were a GM i’d be dealing a 6th or 7th for a vet on the outs with his team every year!
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Yep, and the Pats just did the same thing again with Micheal Bennett.

What have the Texans been doing this offseason? Crickets
 
steelbtexan said:
Yep, and the Pats just did the same thing again with Micheal Bennett.

What have the Texans been doing this offseason? Crickets
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While the likelihood of getting solid production out of these vets is only 1-2 years it is way better than the bust rate on late round rookies. Not many 6-7 round draft picks become solid starters for 1-2 years in the NFL... much less stick on a 53 man roster for that long.
 
TheRealJoker said:
While the likelihood of getting solid production out of these vets is only 1-2 years it is way better than the bust rate on late round rookies. Not many 6-7 round draft picks become solid starters for 1-2 years in the NFL... much less stick on a 53 man roster for that long.
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Simple math that the Texans org doesn't seem to understand. Of course these vets cost way more than 6th rd rookies do. So that may say something about the way the Texans org likes to do business.
 
steelbtexan said:
Simple math that the Texans org doesn't seem to understand. Of course these vets cost way more than 6th rd rookies do. So that may say something about the way the Texans org likes to do business.
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Yup. I used to be a lot more into the draft following it and the prospects closely. For a stretch, I might watch till the 6th or 7th round before a team drafted someone I wasnt familiar with.

Draft capital was more important to me then and in the occasional year we had extra picks I was always excited. I was naive enough to be happy about 3 6th round picks once. As a draftnik that's what you do.

Unfortunately, a decade and a half of casserly and Smith squandering so many chances just jaded things to the point where I dont care. I know by average, most 5th to 7th round picks just aren't going to be significant. Our average after the 1st round isnt anything to showboat.

Ultimately, I still look forward to the draft, but I'll trade a mid or late round pick 8 days a week for a proven vet. Maybe Gaine will change things ,but we just miss to damn much to believe otherwise right now.
 
powda said:
Yup. I used to be a lot more into the draft following it and the prospects closely. For a stretch, I might watch till the 6th or 7th round before a team drafted someone I wasnt familiar with.

Draft capital was more important to me then and in the occasional year we had extra picks I was always excited. I was naive enough to be happy about 3 6th round picks once. As a draftnik that's what you do.

Unfortunately, a decade and a half of casserly and Smith squandering so many chances just jaded things to the point where I dont care. I know by average, most 5th to 7th round picks just aren't going to be significant. Our average after the 1st round isnt anything to showboat.

Ultimately, I still look forward to the draft, but I'll trade a mid or late round pick 8 days a week for a proven vet. Maybe Gaine will change things ,but we just miss to damn much to believe otherwise right now.
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Agreed. The only way late rd guys are usually successful are as ST's guys/talented but troubled guys that stay out of trouble/injured guys that manage to stay healthy.

I like the trading of late rd picks for veteran stop gaps for 1 or 2 yrs. Or say taking a 3rd and a 5th to trade up into the 2nd so you can get a player that has a chance to be a differencemaker.
 
steelbtexan said:
Agreed. The only way late rd guys are usually successful are as ST's guys/talented but troubled guys that stay out of trouble/injured guys that manage to stay healthy.

I like the trading of late rd picks for veteran stop gaps for 1 or 2 yrs. Or say taking a 3rd and a 5th to trade up into the 2nd so you can get a player that has a chance to be a differencemaker.
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Tom Brady says you can kiss his special teams a$$!!!
So much of the success of the later round players is based on if a coaching staff schemes to players strengths or has to have players with certain strengths to suit a particular scheme. Kubiak needed players to fit a scheme. BB tailors his scheme to account for the strengths of the players he has.
The NFL isn't as cut and dried as far as the talent pool goes as some other sports. In the NFL, the total can be far greater than the sum of the parts. It's the coaching staff that is responsible for that. Usually, the coach has significant input on what he wants in a particular position. It varies from team to team. I doubt the GM has much input on how the player is utilized or coached.
 
DocBar said:
Tom Brady says you can kiss his special teams a$$!!!
So much of the success of the later round players is based on if a coaching staff schemes to players strengths or has to have players with certain strengths to suit a particular scheme. Kubiak needed players to fit a scheme. BB tailors his scheme to account for the strengths of the players he has.
The NFL isn't as cut and dried as far as the talent pool goes as some other sports. In the NFL, the total can be far greater than the sum of the parts. It's the coaching staff that is responsible for that. Usually, the coach has significant input on what he wants in a particular position. It varies from team to team. I doubt the GM has much input on how the player is utilized or coached.
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The Coach does now.

Give me talent and I will make the sum of the parts work has always been my theory. Apperntly that's BB position too with the Brown/Van Noy/Rowe Gordon/Patterson/Bennett trades
 
steelbtexan said:
The Coach does now.

Give me talent and I will make the sum of the parts work has always been my theory. Apperntly that's BB position too with the Brown/Van Noy/Rowe Gordon/Patterson/Bennett trades
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Are you saying to be successful in the NFL, O'Brien has to control personnel?
 
DocBar said:
Tom Brady says you can kiss his special teams a$$!!!
So much of the success of the later round players is based on if a coaching staff schemes to players strengths or has to have players with certain strengths to suit a particular scheme. Kubiak needed players to fit a scheme. BB tailors his scheme to account for the strengths of the players he has.
The NFL isn't as cut and dried as far as the talent pool goes as some other sports. In the NFL, the total can be far greater than the sum of the parts. It's the coaching staff that is responsible for that. Usually, the coach has significant input on what he wants in a particular position. It varies from team to team. I doubt the GM has much input on how the player is utilized or coached.
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The difference in successful 6-7 round picks and undrafted free agents is negligible.

Trading a 6-7 doesn’t ruin your ability to find a diamond in the rough from the undrafted pool (Phillip Lindsay this year for example at RB).

Trading those picks for a vet player who can supply dependable production 1-2 seasons is simply more optimal. Sure would like a bonafide NFL starting OLineman more than someone to compete on the back end of the roster (that may lose out to a UDFA!)
 
TheRealJoker said:
The difference in successful 6-7 round picks and undrafted free agents is negligible.

Trading a 6-7 doesn’t ruin your ability to find a diamond in the rough from the undrafted pool (Phillip Lindsay this year for example at RB).

Trading those picks for a vet player who can supply dependable production 1-2 seasons is simply more optimal. Sure would like a bonafide NFL starting OLineman more than someone to compete on the back end of the roster (that may lose out to a UDFA!)
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For some reason the former GM and Gaine have never operated this way. I'm thinking it has to do with $$$$. I could be wrong but it makes sense.
 
steelbtexan said:
Good luck with this.

The OT that gave up more pressures than any OT in the NFL. Think about that for a minute, then ask yourself 1. How much better is he going to get with 1 more offseason, like that's the key to him learning how to move his feet faster.
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Derek Newton says hi.
 
JB said:
I think you're fixated on $$$$.


Jealous?
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LOL

Nope, but there has to be a reason teams like the Pats do business one way and teams like the Texans do business another. You would think BOB would've seen how BB operates and tried to get Gaine to operate in the same manner.
 
steelbtexan said:
LOL

Nope, but there has to be a reason teams like the Pats do business one way and teams like the Texans do business another. You would think BOB would've seen how BB operates and tried to get Gaine to operate in the same manner.
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Well, BOB did take Roberts and Jones advice early to the Texans downfall. BOB didn't talk to coaces, he talked to owners (other Billionaires).
 
JB said:
Well, BOB did take Roberts and Jones advice early to the Texans downfall. BOB didn't talk to coaces, he talked to owners (other Billionaires).
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I was talking about O'Brien and that's TBD now that the GM/HC are aligned.
 
ung14 said:
Not sure if serious or sarcastic but I will play along. He was hot garbage in the disastrous 2013 season but was the top rated run blocker in 2014 and got himself a nice contract extension.
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Excuse me?
 
JB said:
You do understand a change or two was made prior to 2014 and that it was a contract year for Newton?
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Always of the opinion that Newton developed into a pretty decent starter but was hobbled by injury. To his credit tended to play through his injuries but quality of play always took a hit.
 
welsh texan said:
Always of the opinion that Newton developed into a pretty decent starter but was hobbled by injury. To his credit tended to play through his injuries but quality of play always took a hit.
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I always thought he was a below par swing tackle that played a bit above his draft status once he got in a scheme that suited him in his contract year
 
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