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State of the O-line

Shishkabob said:
from PFF

The #Texans

 O-line's performance vs. the Dolphins was arguably their best showing of the season, allowing 0 sacks, 1 hit and 6 pressures. Pass-blocking grades and pressures allowed:
Davenport - 79.7 (2)
Kelemete - 86.8 (0)
Martin - 83.2 (0)
Mancz - 80.5 (1)
Lamm - 61.2 (3)

I understand when Fulton was in he was our best lineman. But with how our line has been run blocking with him out and our pass blocking improving as well, I have a hard time just inserting him back in. Cohesiveness on a line is much more important than individual performance, and these 5 have produced the best results so far. Even if Fultin is ready to go this week I still tell him to take some extra time and see if these 5 can replicate their performance. Big thing Mancz can help Martin with protection calls
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I understand when Fulton was in he was our best lineman. But with how our line has been run blocking with him out and our pass blocking improving as well, I have a hard time just inserting him back in. Cohesiveness on a line is much more important than individual performance, and these 5 have produced the best results so far. Even if Fultin is ready to go this week I still tell him to take some extra time and see if these 5 can replicate their performance. Big thing Mancz can help Martin with protection calls[/QUOTE]Fulton looked better at RG before going out than Mancz now. I'd start Fulton and rotate Mancz at Center and RG, same could be done with Fulton if he's doesn't begin well. Regardless the line looked better last two games. Best 5 with at least two who can play 2 positions well.
 
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Scooter said:
Mancz IMO has been the highlight in the past two games. He's getting bulldozed at times, and wouldn't be out there on a good line (none of our roster would IMO), but he's doing work and showing decent technique and a ****-ton of fight.
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Individually I can't argue.

I'm hoping they'll be an effective unit. That's all that matters at this point. Next year maybe our fetish for a big sexy will be satisfied.
 
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Scooter said:
Not sure if 'insane good' is the phrase I would use, but it's certainly getting better. Miller is the offense's Kareem Jackson to me ... infinitely better than given credit for, but put in impossible situations and against his skillset. Miller likes working the front side of run plays and choosing either the designed guard/tackle gap or bouncing outside if the outside defender loses leverage. Mancz has been providing that gap for the first time, and giving Miller the lanes that he can have success with. Our scheme still appears to be 'hat on a hat' in the run game, but it seems that Mancz and Miller have found a connection.
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I just think Miller is blind as a bat. Ever since he's been here I've watched him miss creases one step to the right or the left. Or I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why he ran inside a block instead of outside. Or outside instead of inside.

Of course I blame Bill O'Brien, but that's a different story.
 
thunderkyss said:
I just think Miller is blind as a bat. Ever since he's been here I've watched him miss creases one step to the right or the left. Or I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why he ran inside a block instead of outside. Or outside instead of inside.

Of course I blame Bill O'Brien, but that's a different story.
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Miller is a good 3rd down RB and a guy who can fill in and not miss a beat. He's a 15 to 20 touch a game guy. If Foreman was healthy this yr I bet you would have a different view of Miller and his talents.
 
steelbtexan said:
Miller is a good 3rd down RB and a guy who can fill in and not miss a beat. He's a 15 to 20 touch a game guy. If Foreman was healthy this yr I bet you would have a different view of Miller and his talents.
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So because Miller knows he's going to get more than 20 carries a game he pretends to be blind as a bat on his first 20 carries? Is he saving his vision for the end of the game, but still runs blind because his eyes are tired?

Help me understand what you are saying.

I bet I'd have a different view of his talents if BO'b would throw pitches & tossed to him or use him on screens & check downs like he used Blue in Dallas.

10 to 20 touches like that would be more productive than the 10 to 20 carries up the A-Gap.
 
thunderkyss said:
So because Miller knows he's going to get more than 20 carries a game he pretends to be blind as a bat on his first 20 carries? Is he saving his vision for the end of the game, but still runs blind because his eyes are tired?

Help me understand what you are saying.

I bet I'd have a different view of his talents if BO'b would throw pitches & tossed to him or use him on screens & check downs like he used Blue in Dallas.

10 to 20 touches like that would be more productive than the 10 to 20 carries up the A-Gap.
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Figure it out yourself.
 
steelbtexan said:
Figure it out yourself.
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Ok. Just confirm for me whether you believe BO'b had any say on bringing Lamar Miller here. I know BO'b said on more than one occasion that he basically told Smith to get him... but I don't know how you interpret those straight forward comments from the man's own mouth.

Me trying to figure out what you're saying is that regardless what BO'b told Smith, Ricky screwed the pooch & got the wrong guy, even though BO'b says he called him out by name (same with the chicken & grits dude).

Even though BO'b doesn't design plays suited to Miller's skillset, ability, build, or the plays he was successful with in Miami... it's Ricky's fault.

I hope you're right & Gaine can talk to BO'b the way he needs to be talked to, "What in the hell made you think Rankin was ready to supplant the guy you picked to start at LT since June?"
 
thunderkyss said:
Ok. Just confirm for me whether you believe BO'b had any say on bringing Lamar Miller here. I know BO'b said on more than one occasion that he basically told Smith to get him... but I don't know how you interpret those straight forward comments from the man's own mouth.

Me trying to figure out what you're saying is that regardless what BO'b told Smith, Ricky screwed the pooch & got the wrong guy, even though BO'b says he called him out by name (same with the chicken & grits dude).

Even though BO'b doesn't design plays suited to Miller's skillset, ability, build, or the plays he was successful with in Miami... it's Ricky's fault.

I hope you're right & Gaine can talk to BO'b the way he needs to be talked to, "What in the hell made you think Rankin was ready to supplant the guy you picked to start at LT since June?"
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Not being bad but where did you see/read this about BOB/Miller?

They were trying to get their best OL on the field and with Rankin missing TC they tried put Rankin in the position he was most likely to succeed. He played LT in college.
 
steelbtexan said:
Not being bad but where did you see/read this about BOB/Miller?

They were trying to get their best OL on the field and with Rankin missing TC they tried put Rankin in the position he was most likely to succeed. He played LT in college.
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I'm remembering BO'b talking about Miller when we signed him.

As far as Rankin goes, do you think they saw something in practice that led them to believe he was ready? Or did Ricky tell them it's time?
 
steelbtexan said:
Not being bad but where did you see/read this about BOB/Miller?

.
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I've been trying to find articles with BO'b saying he wanted Miller, but I've got three pages of hits with BO'b saying Miller is a 3 down back... so BO'b may not be a very credible witness.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm remembering BO'b talking about Miller when we signed him.

As far as Rankin goes, do you think they saw something in practice that led them to believe he was ready? Or did Ricky tell them it's time?
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Our memories are different. I seem to remember BOB saying that he hoped Miller could have many games like he did against the Texans. No HC is going to talk bad about a FA signing.

They didn't see anything in practice Rankin had barely practiced (That's the point) So they tried to put him where he was most comfortable. (It's really not that hard to understand.)
 
steelbtexan said:
They didn't see anything in practice Rankin had barely practiced (That's the point) So they tried to put him where he was most comfortable. (It's really not that hard to understand.)
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No, that's very hard to understand. Even veteran players who haven't been able to practice after medical treatment don't play on Sunday. Even a bad team like the Texans get that right.
 
steelbtexan said:
For you I'm sure it's very hard to understand.
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Being they benched him & put the guy they had there originally leads me to understand they understand they made a mistake.

That they didn't understand it was a mistake before they did it is what I don't understand.

Understand?
 
thunderkyss said:
Being they benched him & put the guy they had there originally leads me to understand they understand they made a mistake.

That they didn't understand it was a mistake before they did it is what I don't understand.

Understand?
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They thought Rankin was better than Lamm. After last yrs crap show by Lamm you can understand this line of thinking.
 
steelbtexan said:
They thought Rankin was better than Lamm. After last yrs crap show by Lamm you can understand this line of thinking.
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With little to no practice I don't understand how they come to that conclusion or why Lamm would still be on the team if that was their thinking.
 
steelbtexan said:
Our memories are different. I seem to remember BOB saying that he hoped Miller could have many games like he did against the Texans. No HC is going to talk bad about a FA signing.

They didn't see anything in practice Rankin had barely practiced (That's the point) So they tried to put him where he was most comfortable. (It's really not that hard to understand.)
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I'll just say with the prior evidence that we have over how O'Brien was salivating over having the goat Chris "bang bang chicken, and shrimp" Polk on our team after Polk ran all over us to the tune of 50 yards and 1 touchdown, I'm pretty sure O'Brien was sizing Lamar up for his gold jacket that he would surely get and humping Smith's leg to sign him after he ran for 175 yds on us, and added another 61 through the air.
 
steelbtexan said:
Our memories are different. I seem to remember BOB saying that he hoped Miller could have many games like he did against the Texans. No HC is going to talk bad about a FA signing.

They didn't see anything in practice Rankin had barely practiced (That's the point) So they tried to put him where he was most comfortable. (It's really not that hard to understand.)
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He said Miller was a three down back.
 
BoB wants to run the ball, but i think he's come to the conclusion that Miller just isn't that guy he can do the power football thing with.

Understand why he said what he said about Miller being a 3 down back though.

The number of carries that Miller recieved that 1st year he got here were 268. That 268 is the most carries he's ever had in 1 year for his entire career, college or pro & he hasn't really been that guy that could take the run game to the next level. So with that in mind I think BoB was hopeful that Miller could become a 3-down workhorse back when he was signed given what they paid him & his measurables which are comparable to guys like Le'veon Bell, Todd Gurley & Zeke Elliott..all guys who came out the gate with 250+ carries and were studs.

But i think over the years he's just come to know that Miller's just not that guy.
 
Miller just had to really good games running the ball. So you can best believe Obrien thinks otherwise Tex. The line has been formidable running the ball this season as well.
 
Want to know why the Colts OL is so good?

LT 1st rd LG 1st rd C 1st Rd RG Vet RT 2nd rd.

This includes LG/C 1st rd picks the last 2 drafts and a 2nd rd pick RT in last yrs draft.

This is what investing in protecting your QB looks like. Great job by Ballard. The Colts are going to be really good in a couple of yrs if Luck's shoulder holds up.
 
Mr teX said:
BoB wants to run the ball, but i think he's come to the conclusion that Miller just isn't that guy he can do the power football thing with.

Understand why he said what he said about Miller being a 3 down back though.

The number of carries that Miller recieved that 1st year he got here were 268. That 268 is the most carries he's ever had in 1 year for his entire career, college or pro & he hasn't really been that guy that could take the run game to the next level. So with that in mind I think BoB was hopeful that Miller could become a 3-down workhorse back when he was signed given what they paid him & his measurables which are comparable to guys like Le'veon Bell, Todd Gurley & Zeke Elliott..all guys who came out the gate with 250+ carries and were studs.

But i think over the years he's just come to know that Miller's just not that guy.
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If Miller was in a ZBS, I think he'd be another Arian Foster. Miller has good vision and isn't one to dance around behind the LOS. OB just isn't willing or able to make a change to maximize his players talent.
 
DocBar said:
If Miller was in a ZBS, I think he'd be another Arian Foster. Miller has good vision and isn't one to dance around behind the LOS. OB just isn't willing or able to make a change to maximize his players talent.
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Miller's vision is average & no coach should upend their entire scheme to accomodate 1 player unless its a qb. Things have to fit & he just isn't a good fit for what OB really wants to do.......which is why Blue is still getting carries and why Foreman was drafted 1 year after they acquired Miller. Miller's doing what he's done every year in his career. Be average to below average for most of the time then have 1-2 explosive games that make his final ypc look great..Then he falls back to being the avg-below avg back he is. He's not a game breaker & doesn't run hard & punish/wear defenses down. Last week's 58 yd run was the longest run he's had since he's been here.
 
Miller is not a zone nor power back in specific. He has been effective with both styles of runs when the plays are blocked well enough and he does not have see a specific back side hole and make a quick decision.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Yep..........27th in the NFL, which would still leave success in our run game suspect of the true level of play of our RBs and OL.
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very much so, I was just talking a game plan for Denver, so hopefully we can go into the bye with a W, and get somewhat healthy for the other side
 
I think if he played at the same weight he did at Miami, his explosive runs would be more frequent. The staff wanted him bigger for a bigger role which is not his strong point. He's a 200-250 carry , 50 catch type of back. He's a guy who should be used in a platoon situation, but as a primary.
 
leebigeztx said:
I think if he played at the same weight he did at Miami, his explosive runs would be more frequent. The staff wanted him bigger for a bigger role which is not his strong point. He's a 200-250 carry , 50 catch type of back. He's a guy who should be used in a platoon situation, but as a primary.
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Miller lost weight this offseason...........he weighs 217-220 pounds and back to the same weight as when he was with the Dolphins.
 
steelbtexan said:
Want to know why the Colts OL is so good?

LT 1st rd LG 1st rd C 1st Rd RG Vet RT 2nd rd.

This includes LG/C 1st rd picks the last 2 drafts and a 2nd rd pick RT in last yrs draft.

This is what investing in protecting your QB looks like. Great job by Ballard. The Colts are going to be really good in a couple of yrs if Luck's shoulder holds up.
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Has Luck ever made it past the 2nd round?
 
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JB said:
But the Colts OL was abysmal until this year
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I'm just wondering why I should care about what the Colts are doing? I remember talking about how good the Cowboys OL is... now I believe in a good OL. But the Cowboys haven't done anything with it, so why should we hold them up as an example?

Same with the Colts. Looks good on paper. But right now, it's just paper.

Look at the rushing stats. Passing stats... results are similar. They've given up less than half the sacks we have with 80 more attempts, I think Watson was responsible for several of those sacks (looks like he's learning/adjusting), we're getting 2 more ypa,

I'm just not too concerned with what the Colts do, until they do something. If you're telling me they're going to be way ahead of us in a couple of years, I'm just saying get back with me in a couple of years.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm just wondering why I should care about what the Colts are doing? I remember talking about how good the Cowboys OL is... now I believe in a good OL. But the Cowboys haven't done anything with it, so why should we hold them up as an example?

Same with the Colts. Looks good on paper. But right now, it's just paper.

Look at the rushing stats. Passing stats... results are similar. They've given up less than half the sacks we have with 80 more attempts, I think Watson was responsible for several of those sacks (looks like he's learning/adjusting), we're getting 2 more ypa,

I'm just not too concerned with what the Colts do, until they do something. If you're telling me they're going to be way ahead of us in a couple of years, I'm just saying get back with me in a couple of years.
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I don't give a crap about the Colts or the Cowboys... you asked a question about the Colts and Luck in reply to SteelB's comment about their good OL. Their OL wasn't good until this year after they added a couple of high picks.
 
steelbtexan said:
They had Costanzo and he stayed healthy. Kelly got hurt and was out for the yr. Then this yr they finished off their OL by drafting Nelson/Smith. This is the main reason they are putting a bunch of points on the board. (In addition to Luck being back.)
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Doesn't change what I said. Their OL was terrible for years and one of the reasons Luck got hurt
 
steelbtexan said:
Want to know why the Colts OL is so good?

LT 1st rd LG 1st rd C 1st Rd RG Vet RT 2nd rd.

This includes LG/C 1st rd picks the last 2 drafts and a 2nd rd pick RT in last yrs draft.

This is what investing in protecting your QB looks like. Great job by Ballard. The Colts are going to be really good in a couple of yrs if Luck's shoulder holds up.
Click to expand...

I've never seen an OL become good to great on a hope and prayer.......they require serious but smart investments. Maybe Gaine is finally going to be the guy that gets this straight for the Texans.
 
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