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State of the O-line

steelbtexan said:
We shall see, but if Bortles doesn't work out Coughlin will trade up in the draft for another young QB like Hebert/Grier, or take on a guy like Winston if the Bucs cut him. Coughlin is 72 yrs old and he's in it to win it, morality police aside.
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Coughlin would never take on Winston. The man is still no nonsense and has morals, he isn't going to deal with that knuckle head to run the most important position on the team. Not to mention Winston himself hasn't been playing good football. When you aren't playing well, people aren't going to overlook your baggage B.S....see Kap.

If Watson becomes the transcendent player that he was for his 6 starts..nobody is going to remember Coughlin's solid drafting.. they're only going to remember him letting Deshaun Watson slipping past his pick thus allowing him to go to a divisional rival. Matters will only get worse if AFC QB Patrick Mahomes turns out to be a stud. These type of QBs are worth their weight in gold and can swing a entire two drafts in your favor (since we also spent a 2018 first round pick) on their selection alone. When you have the chance to take these type of players, you don't pass that up..especially when your team is only lacking a franchise QB to win it all. (Jacksonville).
 
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We don't know what Coach Tom will do if Brotles doesn't work out. Shoots if they fall back down to the pits of suckardness, he might just get fired. But to say he will move up to get certain QB'S is ludicrous. Bwhahaha man stop it. He might grab Foles and draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round. Who the heck knows.
 
Carr Bombed said:
Coughlin would never take on Winston. The man is still no nonsense and has morals, he isn't going to deal with that knuckle head to run the most important position on the team. Not to mention Winston himself hasn't been playing good football. When you aren't playing well, people aren't going to overlook your baggage B.S....see Kap.

If Watson becomes the transcendent player that he was for his 6 starts..nobody is going to remember Coughlin's solid drafting.. they're only going to remember him letting Deshaun Watson slipping past his pick thus allowing him to go to a divisional rival. Matters will only get worse if AFC QB Patrick Mahomes turns out to be a stud. These type of QBs are worth their weight in gold and can swing a entire two drafts in your favor (since we also spent a 2018 first round pick) on their selection alone. When you have the chance to take these type of players, you don't pass that up..especially when your team is only lacking a franchise QB to win it all. (Jacksonville).
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Agreed,

But I like how Coughlin has built that team quickly.

As opposed to how Ricky did with the Texans under the constraints McNair puts on his GM. Ricky did very poorly in finding the bet talent possible with those constraints.
 
Carr Bombed said:
It's funny, because I post over at the jag board and until recently a lot of them were envious of our front office... there's even people who would take our last first rounder (Watson) over their running back for obvious reasons (Bortles).

Hyping up the job the Jags having historically done in the draft is ridiculous and short sided. Say what you will about Rick Smith, but his first round selections have been infinitely better than the Jags until recently (Ramsey) and that's with picking further down in the draft... For Christ's sake, they can't even draft a first round WR that doesn't have a substance abuse problem. F.F.S.. Blaine Gabbert over J.J. Watt! I could go on and I think I will...

Leonard Fournette is a very good back, but let's face it, they screwed the damn pooch on that pick as well. First round running backs are nothing, but hood ornaments, especially if you lack a franchise QB. (We've already played that badass running back/defense card before..) I would not take a running back in the top 5 unless he was a transcendent player...and Fornette is not that. If I was drafting that high and I had any questions about my QB and was picking in a draft that was considered a strong QB draft I sure as hell wouldn't be taking a running back.

The Jaguars' should've did what the Texans did and double down on their investment at QB, because I honestly believe that if the Jags fail to win a championship with their championship caliber defense they'll have their decision to not draft a possible replacement of Bortles to blame. The Jags didn't even have to trade up and they could've had P. MaHomes or D. Watson (who now they have to face off against in the division). Fournette is not going to have a long career in this league..his running style is too punishing..and he even wore down last season.

So honestly, I don't really want to be fed a spoon full of B.S. talking about how great of a job they've done in the draft with top 5 pick after top 5 pick.

They have done better in the free agent market, but here's the thing..when you don't have to worry about resigning high drafted rookies you picked that flamed out you tend to have plenty of cap space to play with.

Tom Coughlin instantly brought legitimacy to their team and there is no denying his fingerprints on this team, but he's about to be 72 yo, how much longer is he going to go?
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Just a side note: How far would've the Cowboys have gotten in Dak's first season if not for the arrival of Elliott? Elliott's dominance helped make the arrival of Dak happen. Scrub Elliott from the picture and Dak suddenly looks like the RD4 pick he was.

Like the Texans, the Jags built a defense and they've built a damn good one. They got their skill position players and now they put their focus on the OL. Fournette could have a breakout season this year...that could be scary b/c of their defense and what may be their ability to control the clock. Bortles becomes a game manager and is no longer required to carry the team.
 
steelbtexan said:
Agreed,

But I like how Coughlin has built that team quickly.

As opposed to how Ricky did with the Texans under the constraints McNair puts on his GM. Ricky did very poorly in finding the bet talent possible with those constraints.
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Agree. The 49's and Jags got new management in place and made huge gains...one was a novice and the other a veteran. The Texans had Casserly, the veteran and Smith, the novice...and with all the high draft picks over the last 15 years, we're all still complaining about how the team has come up short more often than not....that's piss poor and has been accepted by McNair for far too long.
 
austins23 said:
Rick Smith's 1st draft was 2007. So start from there.

Jaguars 1st rounders since 2004

2004 – (9) Reggie Williams, WR Washington
2004 –(10) Dunta Robinson, DB South Carolina
139 games, 17 INT’s ( Pay me Rick!)
(27) Jason Babin, LB Western Mchigan
148 games, 64.5 sacks
79 games, 189 rec, 18 TD’s

2005 – (21) Matt Jones, WR Arkansas (LOL, Matt Jones!!)
54 games, 166 rec, 15 TD’s
2005 – (16) Travis Johnson, DT Florida St.
76 games, 3 sacks

2006 – (28) Marcedes Lewis, TE UCLA
170 games, 375 rec, 33 TD’s
2006 – (1) Mario Williams, DE North Carolina St.
158 games, 97 sacks

2007 – (21) Reggie Nelson, DB Florida
170 games, 36 INT’s
2007 – (10) Amobi Okoye, DT Louisville
87 games, 16 sacks

2008 – (8) Derrick Harvey, DE Florida
52 games, 8 sacks
2008 – (26) Duane Brown, OT Virginia Tech
142 games

2009 – (8) Eugene Monroe, T Virginia
93 games
2009 – (15) Brian Cushing, LB USC
104 games, 8 INT’s, 13.5 sacks

2010 – (10) Tyson Alualu, DT California
126 games, 21 sacks
2010 – (20) Kareem Jackson, DB Alabama
116 games, 14 INT’s

2011 – (10) Blaine Gabbert, QB Missouri
HAHAHA!!
2011 – (11) J.J. Watt, DE Wisconsin
Nothing needed here, but just in case
88 games, 76 sacks

2012 – (5) Justin Blackmon, WR OK State
20 games, 93 rec, 6 TD’s
2012 – (26) Whitney Mercilus, DE Illinois
83 games, 38.5 sacks

2013 – (2) Luke Joekel, T Texas A&M
2013 – (27) DeAndre Hopkins, WR Clemson
79 games, 413 rec, 36 TD’s

2014 – (3) Blake Bortles, QB Central Florida
2014 – (1) Jadeveon Clowney, DE South Carolina
47 games, 20 sacks

2015 – (3) Dante Fowler, OLB Florida
(I think this is the kid that ripped up his knee in TC the first year)
2015 – (16) Kevin Johnson, DB Wake Forest
34 games, 1 INT

2016 – (5) Jalen Ramsey, CB Florida St
2016 – (21) Will Fuller, WR Notre Dame
24 games, 75 rec, 9 TD’s

2017 – (4) Leonard Fournette, RB LSU
2017 – (12) DeShaun Watson, QB Clemson

2018 – (29) Taven Bryan, DT Florida


So, I know the are several different variables going into who gets drafted where. But based JUST on the players taken in the draft since 2004, who has more "wins" in the 1st round, Jags or Texans?

2004 - Texans
2005 - Push (they were both bad)
2006 - Close, I'll go Texans (Mario) over Jags (M. Lewis)
RICK SMITH STARTS HERE....
2007 -Jags
2008 - Texans
2009 - Close but I'll go Texans (Cushing) over Jags (E. Monroe)
2010 - Push (both were/are good)
2011 - Texans
2012 - Texans
2013 - Texans
2014 - Texans
2015 - Jags
2016 - Jags
2017 - Texans
2018 - Jags (Texans no pick)

Jags 4
Texans 9
Ties 1
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Excellent research to pull out all these stats. First off Casserly was a miserable GM. Just pathetic. Then follow him up with Rick Smith, less pathetic, better decisions on early picks but maybe worse on mid and late round picks. Now we have Gaine. I don't want to sink his boat and will give him a pass on his first draft class, even before we know what they will or can do on the field, simply because he wasn't dealt a full deck to play with. My concern is ownership of BOB McNair since he is the ultimate decision maker and should be held accountable for this product on the field, not the millions, possibly billion he's made off it, the players, coaches and fans.
 
beerlover said:
Excellent research to pull out all these stats. First off Casserly was a miserable GM. Just pathetic. Then follow him up with Rick Smith, less pathetic, better decisions on early picks but maybe worse on mid and late round picks. Now we have Gaine. I don't want to sink his boat and will give him a pass on his first draft class, even before we know what they will or can do on the field, simply because he wasn't dealt a full deck to play with. My concern is ownership of BOB McNair since he is the ultimate decision maker and should be held accountable for this product on the field, not the millions, possibly billion he's made off it, the players, coaches and fans.
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He's made billions of dollars already, just through team evaluation mainly due to T.V. contracts alone. According to Forbes in 1999 he paid a "true expansion fee" of 600 million dollars. Those days are long gone and McNair got in at the perfect time when teams were still cheap compared to today.

Before Tilman Fertitta bought the Rockets they were valued at 1.65 billion dollars...and Tilman had to pay 2.2 billion dollars to complete the sale, a 33.3% increase in value.

The Texans currently have a 2.8 billion dollar value estimate. If we just apply the same 33.3% increase at the sale close, McNair could sale the team for as much as 3.73 billion dollars! Now throw in the fact that football is king here and it could be easily north of 4 B.

Yes I think his return on investment has been rather favorable!
 
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beerlover said:
Excellent research to pull out all these stats. First off Casserly was a miserable GM. Just pathetic. Then follow him up with Rick Smith, less pathetic, better decisions on early picks but maybe worse on mid and late round picks. Now we have Gaine. I don't want to sink his boat and will give him a pass on his first draft class, even before we know what they will or can do on the field, simply because he wasn't dealt a full deck to play with. My concern is ownership of BOB McNair since he is the ultimate decision maker and should be held accountable for this product on the field, not the millions, possibly billion he's made off it, the players, coaches and fans.
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But..... But.... But.....

He brought football back to Houston and lets the fans eat BBQ and drink beer in the parking lots. He's just a great guy. $$$$ has never been his #1 option, for yrs he's been a hands off owner, or atleast that's what I've read countless time over the yrs on this MB.
 
Carr Bombed said:
He's made billions of dollars already, just through team evaluation mainly due to T.V. contracts alone. According to Forbes in 1999 he paid a "true expansion fee" of 600 million dollars. Those days are long gone and McNair got in at the perfect time when teams were still cheap compared to today.

Before Tilman Fertitta bought the Rockets they were valued at 1.65 billion dollars...and Tilman had to pay 2.2 billion dollars to complete the sale, a 33.3% increase in value.

The Texans currently have a 2.8 billion dollar value estimate. If we just apply the same 33.3% increase at the sale close, McNair could sale the team for as much as 3.73 billion dollars! Now throw in the fact that football is king here and it could be easily north of 4 B.

Yes I think his return on investment has been rather favorable!
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He got Reliant/NRG to pay 300 mil of that, minority owners came up with another 100 mil and I read somewhere that taxpayers chipped in another 100 mil.

So McNair basically paid 100 mil for a team that's worth 4 bil. That's a pretty good return on his $$$$. He's a swell guy though who's 1st concern is putting the best team possible on the field for the customers who helped him make those billions.

# You cant let the inmates run the asylum.

For Cak to get this thread back on track, The OT's still suck.
 
easy to go only further into the gutter - I want to know what was said directly to Duane Brown behind closed doors before/during holdout then trade? Brown was your OL foundation and not just another guy.
 
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beerlover said:
easy to go only further into the gutter - I want to know what was said directly to Duane Brown behind closed doors before/during he holdout then trade? Brown was your OL foundation and not just another guy.
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They treated him like another guy because of his NA stance which I agreed with. But I'm sure there was much more going on behind the scene's particularly with his comments about Ricky and you have to know Ricky was McNair's messenger.
 
NRG pays $12 mil per year to Harris County, not McNair. They did not pay $300 mil up front. It's a 32 year deal. Link

Forbes values the Texans at $2.8 bil. Link

Taxpayers did not pay for the team. Bonds were used to fund construction of the stadium which is owned by the county. The naming rights pay the bonds.

McNair paid $700 mil for the franchise. Link
 
infantrycak said:
NRG pays $12 mil per year to Harris County, not McNair. They did not pay $300 mil up front. It's a 32 year deal. Link

Forbes values the Texans at $2.8 bil. Link

Taxpayers did not pay for the team. Bonds were used to fund construction of the stadium which is owned by the county. The naming rights pay the bonds.

McNair paid $700 mil for the franchise. Link
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Forbes has calculated that he paid a "true franchise fee" of 600 million, they break it down here..
Team owner Robert McNair has paid off almost all the debt he took on to buy the Texans in 1999 ahead of schedule. McNair borrowed $500 million of the $700 million expansion fee from the NFL. He then borrowed $225 million from banks to pay the NFL loan (which was interest free the first five years). We applied a discount rate on the NFL loan to calculate McNair's true expansion fee to be $600 million.
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https://www.forbes.com/teams/houston-texans/

Billionaires are masters at manipulating and moving money around.
 
You think the other owners divvied up $700 mil or $600 mil? It was $700 mil.

Anyway, it's nice to have a billion to make another billion. Sure a lot more profitable than his horse racing.
 
infantrycak said:
You think the other owners divvied up $700 mil or $600 mil? It was $700 mil.
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I think Forbes would know before they printed the article.

Bottom line for me is he either paid 100 or 200 mil for a 4 billion $$$$ team.

And he consistently has put a mediocre product on the field at best.
 
steelbtexan said:
I think Forbes would know before they printed the article.

Bottom line for me is he either paid 100 or 200 mil for a 4 billion $$$$ team.

And he consistently has put a mediocre product on the field at best.
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They clearly state the fee was $700 mil.

Plus you're wrong on naming rights.

And it's $2.8 bil.

All this unnecessary exaggeration, just to slag a guy.
 
infantrycak said:
You think the other owners divvied up $700 mil or $600 mil? It was $700 mil.

Anyway, it's nice to have a billion to make another billion. Sure a lot more profitable than his horse racing.
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I'm too much of a simpleton regarding billion dollar business deals. I'm simply going by what Forbes who are experts on this type of stuff said.

And yes, much more profitable than horseracing which is just a ridiculously expensive hobby for the extremely privileged. Way too rich for my blood.
 
Carr Bombed said:
And they clearly say..
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No. That comes after them applying a discount rate. The fee was $700 mil. They're just saying he got a cheap loan. You go buy a truck for $40k at 0% you're still paying $40k. They would say value of money it was $35k but $40k actually goes out the door.
 
infantrycak said:
No. That comes after them applying a discount rate. The fee was $700 mil. They're just saying he got a cheap loan. You go buy a truck for $40k at 0% you're still paying $40k. They would say value of money it was $35k but $40k actually goes out the door.
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They said the true price he paid was 600 million, but frankly I don't really care if they said 700 million, because the point is he could probably flip the damn team for around 4 billion tomorrow..especially if he has a young stud franchise QB. So we're talking about a difference of chump change on the original investment, it's a stupid argument.
 
infantrycak said:
They clearly state the fee was $700 mil.

Plus you're wrong on naming rights.

And it's $2.8 bil.

All this unnecessary exaggeration, just to slag a guy.
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I didn't write the article, I was responding to CB's post. Relient/NRG signed up at 10 il per yr for 30 yrs. That's 300 mil unless there's some kind of new math that I'm not familiar with. I'm not slagging the guy. the numbers are what they are. Unless you consider my saying he's put a mediocre product on the field at best a slag. (I think even you would agree that the product has been mediocre. If you dont just look at the record.It will tell the story.
 
steelbtexan said:
I didn't write the article, I was responding to CB's post. Relient/NRG signed up at 10 il per yr for 30 yrs. That's 300 mil unless there's some kind of new math that I'm not familiar with.
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To the county. They own the stadium. You're falsely putting it in Mcnair's pocket.
 
infantrycak said:
**** off. You provide a link. Go supply a link. You never due.
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So freaking predictable.

I say something, you say I'm wrong and don't provide anything that proves that I'm wrong. I notice you didn't address the rest of my post.
 
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steelbtexan said:
So freaking predictable.

I say something, you say I'm wrong and don't provide anything that proves that I'm wrong. I notice you didn't address the rest of my post.
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The entirety of your post was 2 words, "link please." You don't get links because you never provide them. Start doing it and I'll provide to you as I do everyone else. You, 19, mussop think you're too good.
 
infantrycak said:
The entirety of your post was 2 words, "link please." You don't get links because you never provide them. Start doing it and I'll provide to you as I do everyone else. You, 19, mussop think you're too good.
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I dont do links because I dont know how to provide them.

If you feel this way put me on ignore because we re done here.

There's no sense in either of us wasting our time.

Cant provide a link eehh.
 
ObsiWan said:
You shouldn't talk about not providing links.

I've NEVER seen you produce one when asked.
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And never will.

I know how the Texans deal with NRG was reported.

He says I'm wrong.

Is it wrong for him to prove I'm wrong.

If I'm wrong I will admit it, I have been wrong several times and possibly could be again.

Just looking for info. But I can hardly post anymore without Cak becoming confrontational. even if my posts aren't directed to him.
 
I didn't see a link.

The county has a great deal if they're making 10 mil a yr off of stadium rental.

They aren't. If the county is making 3 mil a yr they have a hell of a deal on their hands.

I'm curious to know how much rent the McNair's/HLS&R pay in rent. I bet it isn't more than a million a piece. So 9 mil a yr/270 mil over the life of the lease is a unbelievable deal. NRG's deal is only with the Texans I believe. Regardless the McNair's have made a fortune putting a crap product on the field.

I know this is difficult for you but tell me what you think of the OL prospects this yr. make your call, how good do you think they will be next yr? I say in the 20-25 range which will be an improvement over last yr.
 
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steelbtexan said:
And never will.
That's sad.

steelbtexan said:
I know how the Texans deal with NRG was reported.

He says I'm wrong.

Is it wrong for him to prove I'm wrong.
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actually it is....

28f1a8a84b49b5599642a28116d6b78c.jpg
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This says NRG is one of the many sports venues owned/operated by the Harris Co. Houston Sports Authority. They also run Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, Sam Houston Race Park, Rice U. stadium, TSU's stadium, and a bunch of other sports venues.

who knew?

I can't find a straight forward money flow diagram on who pays how much rent so their teams can play in these places.
 
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