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State of the O-line

OptimisticTexan said:
Insideop, I wouldn't necessarily be against the Texans signing both Robinson (LT) and Joeckel (LG) provided:
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Of course first and formost it depends on the asking price of the product, right ?
OK so Joeckel strikes me as a bit of a finesse kinda lineman maybe a zone type while Robinson seems to be more the mauler type. Now maybe Robinson doesn't have the feet to play tackle, especially LT, but with the right coaching
maybe he could be a success inside ?
 
ObsiWan said:
my point is that's just a hand full out of a whole college draft class. Seems like there used to be more to good quality (not just the studs but servicable guys) to pick from than there is now days. But that was back when folks used pro formations and not this spread junk.

Maybe I'm just remembering the 80s and 90s LoL
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Feel fortunate that you can still remember things that far back!:)
 
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infantrycak said:
Nostalgia aside, Matthews has no resume as a savior. His one 3 season stint as an OL coach, for Munchak in TN, was a failure. Since 2013 either by choice or league disinterest he has done nothing. And it's not like he didn't have any phone numbers with the Texans. He was an offensive assistant for the Texans 2009-10.
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That's interesting as I figured that Matthews had moved on to be an assistant line coach else where but sounds like he wasn't cut out for it which is usually the case for Xplayers,
even formerly great one like Matthews. Sounds like Munchack is the opposite as he's been coaching for awhile now as I recall, including a couple years as the HC in Naahville.
Munchack is back to where his roots are as he's a PA guy, and his wife probably loves being home so he will probably never leave the Steelers voluntarily atleast.
 
ObsiWan said:
my point is that's just a hand full out of a whole college draft class. Seems like there used to be more to good quality (not just the studs but servicable guys) to pick from than there is now days. But that was back when folks used pro formations and not this spread junk.

Maybe I'm just remembering the 80s and 90s LoL
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What’s ironic, the current OL talent are better athletes, but worse football players. The NFL is now a QB driven league, but the OL to protect them might be at a all-time low in terms of blocking. The majority of the teams have OL issues.
 
infantrycak said:
Nostalgia aside, Matthews has no resume as a savior. His one 3 season stint as an OL coach, for Munchak in TN, was a failure. Since 2013 either by choice or league disinterest he has done nothing. And it's not like he didn't have any phone numbers with the Texans. He was an offensive assistant for the Texans 2009-10.
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I agree 100% with your post. Speaking of Munchak. Getting an OL to protect Watson is so important, I wouldn’t mind hiring him as HC with a very good DC and OC.
 
Insideop said:
I can agree with your 3 points if they signed Robinson and/or Joeckel but I don't think I could compare either of them to Verlander and his situation with the Stros!
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Agree. I only made the correlation b/c Verlander was a HOF pitcher who's game had slipped...he got to Houston and they noticed a glitch in his mechanics, got it corrected and the rest, as they say, was history. That tweak in his game may have just bought him another 2 to 3 years of relevance.

Both Robinson and Joeckel were considered some of the best positional talent coming out of the draft. They both carried high NFL expectations. Somewhere between their final college games and their 1st NFL seasons, they were not living up to expectations. Did they get enough time to build NFL strength before their first official starts? Coming out of their college OL duties, did they have enough time to transition their game and learn proper new techniques? Like I mentioned earlier, both players have had the time required to build their NFL strength and mature. For both, is there a chance that with good instruction, could they become those talented guys they were in college? In Joeckel's case, he'd have to get a complete exam on his injuries to determine if a contract could even be offered.

Get them for the right price....somehow turn their game back on and that would be steal for the Texans. If they don't, cut them and move on...the financial impact would be zilch. Go with the glass half full on these guys.
 
Earl34 said:
What’s ironic, the current OL talent are better athletes, but worse football players. The NFL is now a QB driven league, but the OL to protect them might be at a all-time low in terms of blocking. The majority of the teams have OL issues.
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Is it possible that the time has come that OL may have to be treated like QB's of the past who were handed a clipboard while getting a development season on the bench? This could be more true for a team like the Texans who find themselves in a complete OL rebuild. Sign some veterans to bridge the gap while drafting hard for the talent to develop. Get the drafts right and this process doesn't have to take 15+ years...eventually a team will have the foundation to build on.
 
One silver lining - i thought Davenport looked decent last week and has looked pretty good in this game. Not perfect but decent. Add a little strength and work on the footwork and he should be a starter next season.
 
There is not 1 Texans Olineman that would be chosen to play on another team short of 3rd or 4th team, and people wonder why the Texans offense can't stand up to virtually the worst front 7 in the NFL.
 
Well, mercifully the season has come to an end! :gun:

I watched most of the game and it looked like Davenport held his own. I didn't see any sacks given up by him. Giacomini on the other hand is total garbage (Allowed a Safety!). He should be given his walking papers before they get on the plane to come back to Houston and left at the Indy terminal! The O-line was doing good in the 1st half with the run game but that ended with the start of the 2nd half.

It's time to start rebuilding the O-line!
 
ung14 said:
One silver lining - i thought Davenport looked decent last week and has looked pretty good in this game. Not perfect but decent. Add a little strength and work on the footwork and he should be a starter next season.
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I second that because he had a decent game, actually a solid game but obviously this was not Steelers or Jags edge players he was going up against but sill some valuable experiene acquired today for the rookie OLT.
 
Davenport and Slade impressed me. Not great, but definitely average, which is a huge upgrade. Finding a replacement for RT is huge this off-season. Maybe sign a LT and move Davenport.
 
IDEXAN said:
I second that because he had a decent game, actually a solid game but obviously this was not Steelers or Jags edge players he was going up against but sill some valuable experiene acquired today for the rookie OLT.
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Turns out our eyes did not deceive us. Per PFF

TOP 5 GRADES:
T Julien Davenport, 81.9 overall grade

LB Benardrick McKinney, 79.3 overall grade

LB Dylan Cole, 79.1 overall grade

WR Chris Thompson, 78.6 overall grade

CB Kareem Jackson, 77.4 overall grade

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-refocused-indianapolis-colts-22-houston-texans-13
 
W want to hear
ung14 said:
Turns out our eyes did not deceive us. Per PFF

TOP 5 GRADES:
T Julien Davenport, 81.9 overall grade

LB Benardrick McKinney, 79.3 overall grade

LB Dylan Cole, 79.1 overall grade

WR Chris Thompson, 78.6 overall grade

CB Kareem Jackson, 77.4 overall grade

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-refocused-indianapolis-colts-22-houston-texans-13
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Wow those guys at PFF are fast, almost as fast it would seem as the Wiki folks when it comes to updating a link.
This has got to leave Davenport in a very good, and confidant mood on his way to his first NFL offseason with hopefully a sense of achievment and motivation heading into the the upcoming 2018.
 
ung14 said:
Turns out our eyes did not deceive us. Per PFF

TOP 5 GRADES:
T Julien Davenport, 81.9 overall grade

LB Benardrick McKinney, 79.3 overall grade

LB Dylan Cole, 79.1 overall grade

WR Chris Thompson, 78.6 overall grade

CB Kareem Jackson, 77.4 overall grade

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-refocused-indianapolis-colts-22-houston-texans-13
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Nice, but that score for Davenport was generated against the Colts!!! Wouldn't use these results as the benchmark entering the off-season, FA and/or draft in regards to this OL.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Nice, but that score for Davenport was generated against the Colts!!! Wouldn't use these results as the benchmark entering the off-season, FA and/or draft in regards to this OL.
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Granted but everybody's gotta start somewhere. To me what it underscores is that in addition to better talent and depth on the OL we need a genuine teacher. Can't keep unfreezing Alex Gibbs but the best OL years we ever had where when we had that guy working with our line and coaching them up. Our current OL guy (Mike Devlin) is maybe not that guy. I just don't know but it seems like over the last three years we've developed nobody. Who got better after coming here? Who lived up to their potential? I think we need to go looking through the staffs of some of these cast off coaches and try to find someone with a history of success coaching OL's.
 
Hervoyel said:
Granted but everybody's gotta start somewhere. To me what it underscores is that in addition to better talent and depth on the OL we need a genuine teacher. Can't keep unfreezing Alex Gibbs but the best OL years we ever had where when we had that guy working with our line and coaching them up. Our current OL guy (Mike Devlin) is maybe not that guy. I just don't know but it seems like over the last three years we've developed nobody. Who got better after coming here? Who lived up to their potential? I think we need to go looking through the staffs of some of these cast off coaches and try to find someone with a history of success coaching OL's.
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Larry Zierlein?
 
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infantrycak said:
We also can't draft developmental guys and then ignore their presence for the next draft.
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Concur...trenches should be an ongoing priority since so much of the overall success depends on that area being able to perform both from the starters and backups. It also makes dealing with pending FA's that much easier when they know solid backups are already on the roster. Sign or trade, both options could be a win-win if the team has been built the right way.
 
any one think the following could (not should) be next season's starting o line?

LT Davenport LG Slade/Quess Center Martin/Manz RG Allen RT FA scrap or 2018 draft pick.

I don't think Davenport would be successful at right tackle. I want to draft LT to push or beat him and another LT that can play right tackle.
 
badboy said:
any one think the following could (not should) be next season's starting o line?

LT Davenport LG Slade/Quess Center Martin/Manz RG Allen RT FA scrap or 2018 draft pick.

I don't think Davenport would be successful at right tackle. I want to draft LT to push or beat him and another LT that can play right tackle.
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They definitely need to add a couple of guys in the draft and FA.

Imagine an OL with Justin Pugh and a motivated JuJaun James at RT, with Allen and Davenport at LT with a traded up for OT that can play OG . I also would add on more developmental OT in the 4th. The reason for my thinking is they not only need talent but depth. Good news is this is a great yr to get an OG or OT. Alot of small school guys with great amounts of potential. The new GM needs to hit on a couple of 3rd rd rookie OL's really badly.

I never want to see an OL that bad again in my life. That Ol is 1-13 Pastorini got the crap beat out of him again bad. I always liked how Bud got Pastorini to punt too so he could save $$$$ by not having to pay for a Punter. LOL
 
infantrycak said:
Did Pastorini suck as a punter? Danny White punted in Dallas. It wasn't because they were cheap, he was good and it opened up fake punts tremendously.
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They were both really good. White was a little better.

Pastorini was middle of the pack NFL punter. (Which was pretty good considering he got the crap beat out of him playing QB. Pastorini also FG in college, I'm surprised Bud didn't have him doing that too. Pastorini had alot of things wrong with him, but that was one tough dude.
 
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steelbtexan said:
They were both really good. White was a little better.

Pastorini was middle of the pack NFL punter. (Which was pretty good considering he got the crap beat out of him playing QB. Pastorini also FG in college, I'm surprised Bud didn't have him doing that too. Pastorini had alot of things wrong with him, but that was one tough dude.
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Randall Cunningham was a great punter .
 
Danny White 610 punts, 40.2 ypp.
Dan Pastorini 316 punts, 39.7 ypp
Randall Cunningham 20 punts, 44.7*

* Highly skewed by punts of 80 & 91 yds. 40.1 ypp without those coverage breakdowns.

Lechler fyi has a career 47.6 ypp on 1444 punts and has led the league 5 times.
 
Wonder if our "new" brain trust will dip their toes into the free agent OL pool this year?

Too late to the draft party to get much immediate help there.

:coffee:
 
infantrycak said:
You can get starting OL in the 3rd. If you recall we got bookend starting OTs in the 3rd in one draft, 2006.
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Maybe lightning will strike twice.

"There is a light at the end of every tunnel...Some tunnels just happen to be longer than others." - I read it somewhere.

:coffee:
 
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infantrycak said:
You can get starting OL in the 3rd. If you recall we got bookend starting OTs in the 3rd in one draft, 2006.
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Yes we did in fact: Spencer & Winston were the first 2 players off of the Board in the 3rd round which is surprising them lasting that long as it turned out to not be be a particularly strong year for offensive tackles coming out of college.
Spencer started immediately though was soon injured in his rookie year but I can't remember how long it was before Winston was starting ?
 
IDEXAN said:
Yes we did in fact: Spencer & Winston were the first 2 players off of the Board in the 3rd round which is surprising them lasting that long as it turned out to not be be a particularly strong year for offensive tackles coming out of college.
Spencer started immediately though was soon injured in his rookie year but I can't remember how long it was before Winston was starting ?
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Winston didn't start until the 11th game of his rookie year.
 
I don't want to overpay for draft guy by combining picks to move up; we just need too much and should be good players available where we are on the clock. Having said that I am okay with over paying for a vet FA if it is a solid player. No more Allen's though he did well at left tackle short time he was there. If you blow eval on a college kid at least no huge cap hit. I can see us signing at least one good guard and a corner or two. $8 m from Cushing and 2017 cap roll over $12.6 m are two good players. $5 m for Jeff Allen but I don't see him getting cut. Cheap enough to keep him if he is healthy. As well as he did at LT, I'm still wondering why he was not tried there sooner or at LG. This really perturbs me about O'Brien.
 
badboy said:
I don't want to overpay for draft guy by combining picks to move up; we just need too much and should be good players available where we are on the clock. Having said that I am okay with over paying for a vet FA if it is a solid player. No more Allen's though he did well at left tackle short time he was there. If you blow eval on a college kid at least no huge cap hit. I can see us signing at least one good guard and a corner or two. $8 m from Cushing and 2017 cap roll over $12.6 m are two good players. $5 m for Jeff Allen but I don't see him getting cut. Cheap enough to keep him if he is healthy. As well as he did at LT, I'm still wondering why he was not tried there sooner or at LG. This really perturbs me about O'Brien.
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On thing is that they have been overly patient with the X-man at LG, actually to a fault it would seem but maybe Allen could better at LG and if he can play tackle at all that's certainly valuable to us.
 
badboy said:
I don't want to overpay for draft guy by combining picks to move up; we just need too much and should be good players available where we are on the clock. Having said that I am okay with over paying for a vet FA if it is a solid player. No more Allen's though he did well at left tackle short time he was there. If you blow eval on a college kid at least no huge cap hit. I can see us signing at least one good guard and a corner or two. $8 m from Cushing and 2017 cap roll over $12.6 m are two good players. $5 m for Jeff Allen but I don't see him getting cut. Cheap enough to keep him if he is healthy. As well as he did at LT, I'm still wondering why he was not tried there sooner or at LG. This really perturbs me about O'Brien.
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On thing is that they have been overly patient with the X-man at LG, actually to a fault it would seem but maybe Allen could better at LG and if he can play tackle at all that's certainly valuable to us.
 
My decision-making process will often be, No. 1, what’s the internal solution?" Gaine said. "No. 2, what’s the external solution?

"Our internal solution right now is Davenport. We’re optimistic about his upside. He’s gotten some starts (four), so it won’t be new to him.

"He’s got the physical traits to develop at that position. He’s got the height (6-7), length (87 ½-inch wing span) and feet. This is a very important offseason for him in terms of strength and power development. The OTAs and minicamp are going to be critical for him in terms of rapid ascending development."

"As we evaluated our roster, there was an emphasis on getting bigger, longer and stronger, especially on the offensive line," Gaine said. "Physically, he met the parameters of what we’re looking for (6-7, 330). He has the physical traits to be a starter. We’re optimistic he’s going to compete for a starting job."

The Texans have three picks in the third round and eight overall, including three more in the sixth.

The Texans have the fourth, 16th and 34th picks in the third round.

"I like the idea we’re picking near the top of the third round," Gaine said. "We’re wide open. We could go up to the bottom of the second round if somebody’s selling, or we could move down a few picks and accumulate another selection."

The Texans are expected to come out of the draft with at least one offensive tackle and possibly two.

"If you look at history, it tells you the good tackles are usually taken high, but history also tells you they come at all levels," Gaine said. "We’re going to keep an open mind as it relates to where we can get those players."

O’Brien believes right tackles have become as important as left tackles even though it’s not reflected in their paychecks.

"Left and right, it’s becoming no different," he said. "Even though the left side is protecting the right-handed quarterback’s blind side, I think the right side is just as important as the left side.

"That’s my opinion (but) that’s not the way they’re paid. To me, with the rushers you see from Jacksonville, Tennessee and Indianapolis coming off the edge, both tackles better be pretty good, and that’s been one of the most difficult things to evaluate.

"Can this guy who plays on the right, could he swing over and play on the left?" O’Brien said. "Is he left-handed? Is he right-handed? Does he feel comfortable in this type of stance, that type of (stance)? There’s a lot that goes into that evaluation, and I think the level of talent goes in cycles, and that’s just the way it is year-to-year."

With so many college teams playing a spread offense, operating out of the shotgun and throwing the ball so much, a lot of tackles coming into the NFL have played exclusively in a two-point stance and need time to adjust.

"There’s a unique element to scouting right now – the style of offense that’s being played as it relates to offensive line play," Gaine said. "One of the first things you look at with tackles is are they in a three-point stance?

"When we’re scouting offensive linemen, especially tackles, a lot of them are working out of a two-point stance. Now, there are still a number of offenses playing a traditional (scheme)."

Gaine cautions that just because the Texans signed eight free agents doesn’t mean they won’t draft players for some of the same positions.

"How we did business in free agency does impact perhaps what we can do in the draft but never at the expense of taking the best available," he said. "Even though we may have (signed) offensive linemen and defensive backs doesn’t mean we wouldn’t add those positions.

"We’re going to try to find a way to take the best available players when we pick. We have three picks in the top 100. We think we can get players (ranked) from 80 to 100, and they should be good players."
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https://www.houstonchronicle.com/sp...m_source=CMS Sharing Button&utm_medium=social
 
"There’s a unique element to scouting right now – the style of offense that’s being played as it relates to offensive line play," Gaine said. "One of the first things you look at with tackles is are they in a three-point stance?

"When we’re scouting offensive linemen, especially tackles, a lot of them are working out of a two-point stance. Now, there are still a number of offenses playing a traditional (scheme)."
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So are the Texans leaning toward o-linemen who played out of a 3 point stance? You know, a guy can play out of a 3 point stance and still suck at it.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I believe that McClain is taking a lot of things for granted (overly positive) about the OTs on our roster.
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To be fair, he kinda has to in his line of work. His sources have already dried up with Kubiak gone. But if he starts talking negative i’m sure his job will get even tougher.
 
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