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State of the O-line

Scooter said:
Texans have 3 quality corners*. Somehow numbers 4+ didn't even make it to the regular season, since Banks was starting (getting toasted) with less than a week of prep when Kevin got injured (I'll leave this one to Steelb). That's where players like Brice McCain and AJ Bouye got paid, they rose above being castoff #4's. We failed to coach and keep replacement parts. Obviously #4 and #5 are not expected to be doing much heavy lifting, but we're doing something wrong if they aren't even on the team.

*Doc - most are lucky to have 2 quality corners.
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They thought they did at the beginning of the season. Banks/McCoud did not replace Bouye... Kjo did. 4+ did not enter the conversation. You can't prepare for injury at every position within the salary cap and roster size. You have to go with the best 53 and hope the next man steps up.

Many here expect all pros in all 53 spots... or at least the starting 40+

and yeah, most teams are hoping they have 2 Good corners
 
wasn't it reported this summer that Bouye wanted to go back to florida no matter what, and he had no intentions of signing anywhere other than a florida team?
 
JB said:
They thought they did at the beginning of the season. Banks/McCoud did not replace Bouye... Kjo did. 4+ did not enter the conversation. You can't prepare for injury at every position within the salary cap and roster size. You have to go with the best 53 and hope the next man steps up.

Many here expect all pros in all 53 spots... or at least the starting 40+

and yeah, most teams are hoping they have 2 Good corners
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We have 3 corners, Kevin, Kareem and Joseph. We had those last year, and in a direct image Kevin got injured. Bouye (a nobody who had been developed with the team) was #4 taking over for Kevin's injury. We didn't develope/retain a #4 this year, instead we dropped our preseason corners and brought in Banks cold with obvious results. Our first 3 were established ... how did we not acquire/build an in-house #4 between the draft and Kevin's injury? Why was a free agent (Banks) coming in without time to acclimate and learn the defense our best option? Where are the DB's that we coached through training camp and preseason?
 
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Scooter said:
We have 3 corners, Kevin, Kareem and Joseph. We had those last year, and in a direct image Kevin got injured. Bouye (a nobody who had been developed with the team) was #4 taking over for Kevin's injury. We didn't develope/retain a #4 this year, instead we dropped our preseason corners and brought in Banks cold with obvious results. Our first 3 were established ... how did we not acquire/build an in-house #4 between the draft and Kevin's injury? Why was a free agent (Banks) coming in without time to acclimate and learn the defense our best option?
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It took 4 years to develop Bouye... we just didn't have the next man ready. Was it injuries or lack of planning? Who was expected to be the next man up?
 
JB said:
It took 4 years to develop Bouye... we just didn't have the next man ready. Was it injuries or lack of planning? Who was expected to be the next man up?
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'It took 4 years to develop Bouye', is my issue. He didn't appear in year 4, we were building him the whole time (oh to have Wade and Vance again). What happened to Rolle, Nelson, James, and others that we could be building? Why did every 4+ cb on the roster disappear after preseason, leaving us to rely on a random week 2 free agent?
 
Scooter said:
'It took 4 years to develop Bouye', is my issue. He didn't appear in year 4, we were building him the whole time (oh to have Wade and Vance again). What happened to Rolle, Nelson, James, and others that we could be building? Why did every 4+ cb on the roster disappear after preseason, leaving us to rely on a random week 2 free agent?
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Bouye's 4th year here was his last... but yeah we are drumk speakin' the same thing
 
Scooter said:
We didn't develope/retain a #4 this year, instead we dropped our preseason corners and brought in Banks cold with obvious results. Our first 3 were established ... how did we not acquire/build an in-house #4 between the draft and Kevin's injury? Why was a free agent (Banks) coming in without time to acclimate and learn the defense our best option? Where are the DB's that we coached through training camp and preseason?
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That's exactly what I'm saying. But I don't blame Rick for not developing a 4th corner. He stocked the shelf, coaches didn't come through. He hit the market again to find replacements...

Sooner or later, coaches have to do their job.
 
thunderkyss said:
I think it was a mistake to give up that 2nd, especially if we weren't planning on using the extra money.

I don't think Bouye was worth 12M/yr. I think that would have led to cap issues down the line.
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I agree 100%. Personally, I think if you're giving up a pick to save money, then they should've franchised Bouye. Use the saved money this season to keep the D strong while maintaining future flexibility.
 
otisbean said:
I agree 100%. Personally, I think if you're giving up a pick to save money, then they should've franchised Bouye. Use the saved money this season to keep the D strong while maintaining future flexibility.
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I might not have liked franchising him, but in our situation I'd have liked it better than a multi year deal.
 
The Texans knew that for their D to function at a high level and the way they wanted it to work, they needed a pool of 3 reliable quality CBs. They went to great lengths to obtain those 3. Smith has been repeatedly quoted as saying "You can never have enough good CBs." By the time they released Bouye, they already knew that Kjo was not progressing well following both his 2nd Jones fracture and wrist surgeries. That told me that he was having problems with the healing of the bone grafts that are necessary for a 2nd Jones fracture repair. Once that occurs, the healing and rehab period becomes entirely unpredictable. In fact, it can in significant numbers of cases require a 3rd surgery. They ignored the signs, spun the roulette wheel, and did not come out the winner. Coming into this season already with question marks at some other important returning D players and at safety, I don't believe they played their hand wisely.
 
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thunderkyss said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. But I don't blame Rick for not developing a 4th corner. He stocked the shelf, coaches didn't come through. He hit the market again to find replacements...

Sooner or later, coaches have to do their job.
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Sounds so simple when you put it that way.

Team needs a LT. Sign up and let the coaches turn you into a LT. Problem solved.

"Rick" doesn't develop anyone. He is supposed to sign players capable of playing football at a professional level.

He sucks in that aspect for the most part. You and I could draft capable players in the first round which is pretty much all he can do.

:coffee:
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
The Texans knew that for their D to function at a high level and the way they wanted it to work, they needed a pool of 3 reliable quality CBs. They went to great lengths to obtain those 3. Smith has been repeatedly quoted as saying "You can never have enough good CBs." By the time they released Bouye, they already knew that Kjo was not progressing well following both his 2nd Jones fracture and wrist surgeries. That told me that he was having problems with the healing of the bone grafts that are necessary for a 2nd Jones fracture repair. Once that occurs, the healing and rehab period becomes entirely unpredictable. In fact, it can in significant numbers of cases require a 3rd surgery. They ignored the signs, spun the roulette wheel, and did not come out the winner. Coming into this season already with question marks at some other important returning D players and at safety, I don't believe they played their hand wisely.
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I hear what you are saying Doc, but KJo isn't out because of another injury to his foot. He started the season. Played until he sprained his knee. How were the Texans supposed to plan for KJo spraining his knee? Injuries are a part of the game.
 
thunderkyss said:
I might not have liked franchising him, but in our situation I'd have liked it better than a multi year deal.
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I hate seeing cap space just sitting there, especially since we gave up a pick. I’m with you on the multi-year deal on Bouye but since we had the space we could have kept him, and created a “prove it” year for both K Jo and Bouye. For KJo, prove you can stay healthy and be a good starting corner and Bouye, prove last year wasn’t a fluke. Then I’d feel better about a multi year deal for Bouye
 
cuppacoffee said:
Sounds so simple when you put it that way.

Team needs a LT. Sign up and let the coaches turn you into a LT. Problem solved.
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Haha, I ain't saying all that. I suggested we fixed the LT position in the 2014 draft. In hindsight doesn't look like my pick would have solved the issue.

Still, our LT issue might have been different if Smith would have talked to Brown instead of blowing him off, who knows.

Coaches looked like they did a good job with Mancz. I don't know why they wouldn't let him play. They looked like they wanted to go with Lamm at RT... until they saw him at LT.

Again this line produced a good run game last year, protected Osweiler better than half the other teams in the league.

We don't have Brown but that's a different issue.

cuppacoffee said:
"Rick" doesn't develop anyone. He is supposed to sign players capable of playing football at a professional level.

He sucks in that aspect for the most part. You and I could draft capable players in the first round which is pretty much all he can do.

:coffee:
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I liked the XSF when we drafted him. Many here did as well. Most agreed Nick Martin was a good pick & Jeff Allen was a good signing. Something went wrong between acquiring the players & getting them on the field.
 
sandman said:
I hear what you are saying Doc, but KJo isn't out because of another injury to his foot. He started the season. Played until he sprained his knee. How were the Texans supposed to plan for KJo spraining his knee? Injuries are a part of the game.
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I understand. You might want to look at players coming back from Jones fractures and their subsequent history of knee and other lower extremity injuries. But his long recovery should have put red flags up for at least the early part of the regular season.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I understand. You might want to look at players coming back from Jones fractures and their subsequent history of knee and other lower extremity injuries. But his long recovery should have put red flags up for at least the early part of the regular season.
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Provided they got sound advice from their medical staff... how confidant are you that they actually did?
 
JB said:
Provided they got sound advice from their medical staff... how confidant are you that they actually did?
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I'm finding it difficult to maintain confidence in the advice that our players/HC are getting from the medical staff and the trainers..........as I have to keep in mind that they are the ones that determine if and when a player can play......and then the schedule of restrictions they should adhere to once they do return.
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
I understand. You might want to look at players coming back from Jones fractures and their subsequent history of knee and other lower extremity injuries. But his long recovery should have put red flags up for at least the early part of the regular season.
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Appreciate the knowledge sharing. Not putting words in your mouth, but are you saying that the Texans should have ponied up the money for Bouye because of the history of lower limb injuries sustained by players who have had a Jones fracture? Isn't that going way way way down the contingency planning rabbit hole?
 
sandman said:
Appreciate the knowledge sharing. Not putting words in your mouth, but are you saying that the Texans should have ponied up the money for Bouye because of the history of lower limb injuries sustained by players who have had a Jones fracture? Isn't that going way way way down the contingency planning rabbit hole?
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I don't take your response or skepticism in a negative manner. Look at Dez Bryant who underwent the same revision Jones fracture bone grafting procedure..........right after the 2015 season (almost to the same day of that year compared to KJo's surgery this year), and he was not cleared to play until TC. From the beginning of the 2016 regular season, he was plagued with knee injuries (lost 4 weeks to rehab)........all the way through the season.........not to mention ankle issues.............and a back injury that occurred the 1st week of Nov, and never let up for the rest of the season.

When that 2nd Jones fracture surgery does not heal quickly, compensatory injuries following return are more the rule than the exception.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I don't take your response or skepticism in a negative manner. Look at Dez Bryant who underwent the same revision Jones fracture bone grafting procedure..........right after the 2015 season (almost to the same day of that year compared to KJo's surgery this year), and he was not cleared to play until TC. From the beginning of the 2016 regular season, he was plagued with knee injuries (lost 4 weeks to rehab)........all the way through the season.........not to mention ankle issues.............and a back injury that occurred the 1st week of Nov, and never let up for the rest of the season.

When that 2nd Jones fracture surgery does not heal quickly, compensatory injuries following return are more the rule than the exception.
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I appreciate you taking the time to explain it with real world examples. I can definitely see your concern in the situation, even if I don't agree with you on re-signing Bouye (but that was mainly because of cost).
 
sandman said:
I appreciate you taking the time to explain it with real world examples. I can definitely see your concern in the situation, even if I don't agree with you on re-signing Bouye (but that was mainly because of cost).
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That's why we have discussion and trade opinions.:)

BWT, FWIW, the knee injury that Bryant suffered when he came back and lost those games.................an MCL tear (also same as KJo).
 
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otisbean said:
I know but it doesn't help us this year. If we had franchised AJ we'd have another solid DB (which we could certainly use right now) and still have cap space next season.
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When would you rather have cap space to spend , the year you would be content with 8-8 because of your QB situation going in or after your shiny new QB has some seasoning ??

I'll take the latter .... No sense putting yourself in cap hell just to go 8-8ish.
 
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They’ve since spent the majority of the cap space they had this year in re-signing Hopkins, C.J., Hal, Griffin, and Prosch as well as signing Gilchrist and Giocimini. They only have $5.8M in space left that will roll over into next year.

I much prefer to have re-signed those guys and signed Gilchrist than to give Bouye big money.
 
TexansSeminole said:
They’ve since spent the majority of the cap space they had this year in re-signing Hopkins, C.J., Hal, Griffin, and Prosch as well as signing Gilchrist and Giocimini. They only have $5.8M in space left that will roll over into next year.

I much prefer to have re-signed those guys and signed Gilchrist than to give Bouye big money.
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It's becoming more and more obvious to me that I don't pay close enough attention to these things.

Question: Was the money well spent on Prosch, Gilchrist and Giocimini? Would Bouye help us win more right now than those three?

Serious question, I don't pretend to know the answer.

:coffee:
 
cuppacoffee said:
Question: Was the money well spent on Prosch, Gilchrist and Giocimini? Would Bouye help us win more right now than those three?

:coffee:
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I was 50/50 on extending Prosh. Down the stretch last season I thought he was finally getting it & I thought he finished the season strong.

So far this year, looks like the coaches want to get away from using a full back. Makes me think Prosh was not discussed between the coaches & GM.

Giacomini, doesn't look good so far, but I'd rather wait a few more games to say.
 
thunderkyss said:
I was 50/50 on extending Prosh. Down the stretch last season I thought he was finally getting it & I thought he finished the season strong.

So far this year, looks like the coaches want to get away from using a full back. Makes me think Prosh was not discussed between the coaches & GM.

Giacomini, doesn't look good so far, but I'd rather wait a few more games to say.
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He looked no better with the Jets. "Doesn't look so good" is kind to say the least............he's looked terrible...........certainly not worth the $2.5 million we've paid him this season.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
He looked no better with the Jets. "Doesn't look so good" is kind to say the least............he's looked terrible...........certainly not worth the $2.5 million we've paid him this season.
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A couple of decent blocks in the run game today. Hasn't allowed anyone around him, yet. Got pushed back a bit in pass pro. One false start so far.
 
Big difference between the Brown's OL & ours. Watson would thrive behind their line. Hogan would get killed behind ours. Just saying, I'm not totally oblivious to the state of our OL.

XSF got tossed on that big Foreman run. Over extended, DLman took advantage.
 
thunderkyss said:
Can we please keep injury related posts in the injury thread?

:spit:
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Accidentally posted in the wrong thread..........thanks [I'm sure you noticed Cole had nothing to do with the OL............
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infantrycak said:
I don't see why people say this. It doesn't go unused, it rolls to next year.
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When you max out the cap, you loose flexibility and can lead to the following years. When they let Bouye walk, they were still unsure what they were going to do about the QB situation and they were keeping room to possibly sign Romo. Once they got into a bidding war, the cost for Bouye went above what they were willing to pay and I agree with their decision.
thunderkyss said:
Can we please keep injury related posts in the injury thread?

:spit:
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Can we please just stop getting injured!
 
Corrosion said:
When would you rather have cap space to spend , the year you would be content with 8-8 because of your QB situation going in or after your shiny new QB has some seasoning ??

I'll take the latter .... No sense putting yourself in cap hell just to go 8-8ish.
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Maybe I’m missing something but franchising Bouye would only effect this years cap space, not next years
 
Texas Jake said:
When you max out the cap, you loose flexibility and can lead to the following years. When they let Bouye walk, they were still unsure what they were going to do about the QB situation and they were keeping room to possibly sign Romo. Once they got into a bidding war, the cost for Bouye went above what they were willing to pay and I agree with their decision.!
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And you quoted me why?
 
Texas Jake said:
When you max out the cap, you loose flexibility and can lead to the following years. When they let Bouye walk, they were still unsure what they were going to do about the QB situation and they were keeping room to possibly sign Romo. Once they got into a bidding war, the cost for Bouye went above what they were willing to pay and I agree with their decision.

Can we please just stop getting injured!
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Well the Texans certainly can't have a loose salary cap. There are leash laws for a reason, I'll have you know!! Salary caps just running around all willy-nilly are a danger to the community and the country as a whole. :cowboy1:




:sarcasm:
 
Let's just close our eyes and imagine what this offense could be doing with a couple of solid pieces on the OL. I'm watching the replay of this game on AFN (0500 CST) as I'm typing this post. The skill positions are looking more and more settled which makes me wonder what a stronger OL brings to the table.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Let's just close our eyes and imagine what this offense could be doing with a couple of solid pieces on the OL. I'm watching the replay of this game on AFN (0500 CST) as I'm typing this post. The skill positions are looking more and more settled which makes me wonder what a stronger OL brings to the table.
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It's been a while since I watched AFN.
 
Davenport is going to need a lot of work before his impact will be felt. Watson's elusiveness puts a beautiful skim-coat on the terribly cracked foundation. I'm amazed with his ability to run but man, he's going to get knocked silly at some point. Urgent Message....RS, prioritize your OL so this young QB can stay healthy and productive.
 
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