This is because Fulton did pretty well before he got hurt and there's hope for Rankin/Martin.
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State of the O-line
- Thread starter jradMIT
- Start date
This is because Fulton did pretty well before he got hurt and there's hope for Rankin/Martin.
They were starting the best players in their opinion.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
Appreciate the replay. I would like to discuss it a little further.
Who else did they interview? Has he / she received any other other interviews? Got a job somewhere else?
The fact they weren't chosen doesn't automatically mean they would have been a better choice.
The Rooney rule has surely helped improve the status of minorities in the league offices, however, passing on a minority doesn't necessarily mean passing was a bad choice.
Do you think it is a bad thing that our GM and coach seem to be on the same page now?
Not trying to be argumentative but criticizing / questioning the choice, especially after the job he did last year seems a little premature.
Not an Obrien apologist.
Appreciate the replay. I would like to discuss it a little further.
Who else did they interview? Has he / she received any other other interviews? Got a job somewhere else?
The fact they weren't chosen doesn't automatically mean they would have been a better choice.
The Rooney rule has surely helped improve the status of minorities in the league offices, however, passing on a minority doesn't necessarily mean passing was a bad choice.
Do you think it is a bad thing that our GM and coach seem to be on the same page now?
Not trying to be argumentative but criticizing / questioning the choice, especially after the job he did last year seems a little premature.
Not an Obrien apologist.
Even they didn't interview others, so what? Successful businesses go after leaders they think will be beneficial. What's wrong wiith it? Interviewing someone just because of their skin color is wrong
Appreciate the replay. I would like to discuss it a little further.
Who else did they interview? Has he / she received any other other interviews? Got a job somewhere else?
The fact they weren't chosen doesn't automatically mean they would have been a better choice.
The Rooney rule has surely helped improve the status of minorities in the league offices, however, passing on a minority doesn't necessarily mean passing was a bad choice.
Do you think it is a bad thing that our GM and coach seem to be on the same page now?
Not trying to be argumentative but criticizing / questioning the choice, especially after the job he did last year seems a little premature.
Not an Obrien apologist.
I agree with you it doesn't mean it's a bad choice. Gaine may be a very good GM and it's good they have alignment.
My point was that if we move on from OBrien we should move on from gaine as well so we can start off with alignment in the next regime.
Also I think in general better decisions get made if they do a thorough search. Maybe they end up with the same decision but maybe they learn something and go in a different direction
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
Not interviewing someone because of skin color is also wrong.
It is a fact of life that many people (not aimed at any one individual) have a built in belief that dark skin color indicates an inferior intelligence. Proven wrong on so many levels. I don't think that it is intentional, but it is there. If those people can be "forced" to make an in depth look it might possibly show them that their "prejudice" is based on false beliefs.
Whats wrong is quota's. Seen that first hand and it is also wrong on so many levels.
Owners still the right to hire who they deem is the most qualified applicant.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
I am not too sure but I think most franchises hire a GM first and then collaborate on finding a coach.
But I wouldn't bet my lunch money on it.
Not interviewing someone because of skin color is also wrong.
It is a fact of life that many people (not aimed at any one individual) have a built in belief that dark skin color indicates an inferior intelligence. Proven wrong on so many levels. I don't think that it is intentional, but it is there. If those people can be "forced" to make an in depth look it might possibly show them that their "prejudice" is based on false beliefs.
Whats wrong is quota's. Seen that first hand and it is also wrong on so many levels.
Owners still the right to hire who they deem is the most qualified applicant.
you're right. Quota's and skin color should never be a part of any decision
I am not too sure but I think most franchises hire a GM first and then collaborate on finding a coach.
But I wouldn't bet my lunch money on it.
Used tp be that way anywho
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Not sure I agree with you, I never liked the idea of cleaning house. Just because one person was fired why should others that are doing their job well be fired. Guilt by association is a dangerous slope to slide down.
I can understand why Texans fans would want this or think this way, but I think the case of BoB and Smith so far apart was more the exception than the norm. I could write a long post about why I think it was with those two but no one really cares so I'll spare everyone. It basically comes down to a first time GM and a first time HC both wanting to make their mark and not yet learning to play nice with others. Gaine at least has worked for other teams even if not as a GM.
In most companies and corporations managers and such are moved around all the time and, after a few start up hiccups, things are expected to keep running. Also if we completely start over then we have basically gone into rebuild mode and with the talent on this team we don't need to be in rebuild mode.
Let's let each person do their job and then judge them based on the job they do not on how someone did. Odds are if they do move on from BoB, Gaine will have a big hand in picking who the next HC will be so why wouldn't he pick someone he is on the same page as.
Also consider this, if you clean house that means basically Cal and his team will be deciding the next hire themselves with no other input and the last time that happened BoB got an extension. Now we all know how much you loved that choice so do you really want to leave it totally in their hands again.
Not sure I agree with you, I never liked the idea of cleaning house. Just because one person was fired why should others that are doing their job well be fired. Guilt by association is a dangerous slope to slide down.
I can understand why Texans fans would want this or think this way, but I think the case of BoB and Smith so far apart was more the exception than the norm. I could write a long post about why I think it was with those two but no one really cares so I'll spare everyone. It basically comes down to a first time GM and a first time HC both wanting to make their mark and not yet learning to play nice with others. Gaine at least has worked for other teams even if not as a GM.
In most companies and corporations managers and such are moved around all the time and, after a few start up hiccups, things are expected to keep running. Also if we completely start over then we have basically gone into rebuild mode and with the talent on this team we don't need to be in rebuild mode.
Let's let each person do their job and then judge them based on the job they do not on how someone did. Odds are if they do move on from BoB, Gaine will have a big hand in picking who the next HC will be so why wouldn't he pick someone he is on the same page as.
Also consider this, if you clean house that means basically Cal and his team will be deciding the next hire themselves with no other input and the last time that happened BoB got an extension. Now we all know how much you loved that choice so do you really want to leave it totally in their hands again.
To me, it depends on how Gaine/BOB do. If they fall flat on their faces like Smithiak did in 2010 and it's obvious that they wont be bringing a Lombardi to Kirby then you clean house.
How do you make that judgement? Well here's a clue, when you're coming off of a 9-7 season and your HC decides to have an elective surgery leaving your GM to make all of the evaluations at the combine and the team falls flat on it's face like they did in 2010, you fire everybody that was involved or you get what the Texans have been for the last 8 yrs. #CLEANHOUSE
delete
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
Well Gaine inherited OB and in the past Gaine had no input in the hiring of OB. As far as any of you know, Gaine agreed to work "with" OB but if given the choice maybe he has a HC he'd like to hire.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
We don't know he answer to that...........yet.
I don't get the feeling that they are inseparable if one or he other doesn't measure up.
Going by last years results though I believe Gaine did a better job using what he had to work with (draft choices) than Obrien did using what he had to work with. It has been discussed here at length the things Obrien could have done better working around poor Oline play.
Gaine addressed the ST play and to my thinking he did an excellent job finding players for that.
Found us a damn good safety in he draft too.
I'm cautiously optimistic about the upcoming draft.
Why would you think BG would have a hand at all in picking our next HC. That's not the way McNair has ever done it. Capers was fired, Casserly was not involved in the coach search at all. Kubiak was fired, Smith had no say in the O'Brien hire at all.
We have a new McNair so past experience doesn't necessarily mean anything. But we have nothing to suggest BG will be part of the HC replacement process.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
I believe that Cal would be remiss if he didn't confer with his GM before hiring a new head coach.
Not saying Gaine, or a new GM, would get a 'vote' but he should be asked for an opinion.
The defense will continue to be good because RAC is a good DC. The offense will continue to suck because OB isn't a good OC. I'm pretty sure the guy they are calling OC will call plays that look exactly like OB's poor play calling.
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
Then it might also be up to you know, the players to perform. This is likely as we will get some key players back from injury.
Not forgetting also how good the O looked in Watson's first half dozen or so games.
We also have a whole off season yet so I am not going doom and gloom until that actually happens.
Fix the OL, draft a WR to help out when Fuller gets hurt again and the doom and gloom will go away.
Gaine was hired after O'Brien, like a month after.
https://www.battleredblog.com/2014/2/10/5398396/texans-hire-brian-gaine
It really is that simple .... I would add a RB. Seriously, exactly how, and with whom (specifically), would you fix the line. There are no wrong answers. You think about and research it as much as anyone, probably more. So, left to right, who would they be .... I'm genuinely curious ! Oh .... and you are the general manager, so we can run any offense and blocking scheme you like.
I would sign Trent Brown in FA and draft Risner in Rd.1 if Dillard was gone. I would also look at drafting a guy like Sharping or Edoga in the 3rd, with the idea of moving Risner to OG or C. If Tyler Roemer fell to the 5th I would pick him for depth purposes. He's got more natural ability than any OT currently on the roster.
Your OL would look like this,
Brown/Risner/Martin/Fulton/Scharping
Reserves- OT's Roemer (Who possibly who could beat Scharping) and Henderson
OG's Rankins/Kelemete
C- Mancz
This would create a talented and versatile OL group. Some may not work out but the depth would be there that I could almost guarantee you that 7-8 of them would be above avg NFL OL. Plus you have the talented versatility BOB/Devlin seem to want from their OL.
Risner/Scharping/Fulton/Kelemete can all play multiple positions. If Martin doesn't work out at C then you can move Fulton/Mancz in and not miss a beat. If Brown/Risner or Scharping get hurt you can move Roemer/Henderson in and still be in good shape. If the OG's get hurt Rankin/Kelemete are there to step in.
Bottom line is you've created great competition and are doing everything possible to try and protect Watson from taking 62 sacks. Also this Ol will have great trade value. NFL teams are always looking for OL.
Plus you have both of your 2nds to draft CB's if you wish.
I believe that Cal would be remiss if he didn't confer with his GM before hiring a new head coach.
Not saying Gaine, or a new GM, would get a 'vote' but he should be asked for an opinion.
I think so too. I kinda understood when he didn't consult Casserly. I mean dead guy walking right?
But Smith wasn't a lame duck when McNair was looking to replace Kubiak.
But it made clear this was McNair's baby, his vision. The GM reported to him. The HC reported to him.
Which I think was one of the problems with the vision for the team.
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maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Agree 100% but this is Cal's team now so we can't really be sure how he would run it. Logic would say it would be similar to how Bob did but Cal had the advantage of watching his dad as an owner and learning from those mistakes. Plus I find it very hard to believe that at no point did Cal and Rick have a conversation along the lines of "I wish your dad had talked to me before hiring a new HC so I could give some input." From my understanding those two were, and still are as far as we know, close.
Cal saw first hand what happens when a GM and HC are locking horns so he maybe more inclined to listen to Gaine's thoughts if/when hiring a new HC is needed. Fact is we actually know very little about the current Texans leadership. We know Gaine did good to great, depending on who you ask, last season but we haven't yet seen him when he has a full hand to play. We know Cal was part of Bob's committee but like a friend of mine in the Navy once told me right after he made captain "The world looks a lot different sitting in the chair than it did when I was standing next to it."
This offseason will be one of the most interesting if not important in Texans history.
zshawn10
All Pro
Another case of a talented young OL not developing
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Sooooo was that suppose to be a surprise? I mean I don't think anybody thought that any of the Oline were going to be top of anything except "sacks allowed'. Hey on the plus side though he made the top 5.
Yep, This is why I wouldn't be against moving Fulton to C, where he was actually quite good for the Chiefs. Or letting the competition decide who's the starting C. Gotta add some talent in the draft/FA though on the OL.
Martin's multiple ankle injuries have ruined his career.
Just as CnD predicted they would.
Not sure I agree with you, I never liked the idea of cleaning house. Just because one person was fired why should others that are doing their job well be fired. Guilt by association is a dangerous slope to slide down.
I can understand why Texans fans would want this or think this way, but I think the case of BoB and Smith so far apart was more the exception than the norm. I could write a long post about why I think it was with those two but no one really cares so I'll spare everyone. It basically comes down to a first time GM and a first time HC both wanting to make their mark and not yet learning to play nice with others. Gaine at least has worked for other teams even if not as a GM.
In most companies and corporations managers and such are moved around all the time and, after a few start up hiccups, things are expected to keep running. Also if we completely start over then we have basically gone into rebuild mode and with the talent on this team we don't need to be in rebuild mode.
Let's let each person do their job and then judge them based on the job they do not on how someone did. Odds are if they do move on from BoB, Gaine will have a big hand in picking who the next HC will be so why wouldn't he pick someone he is on the same page as.
Also consider this, if you clean house that means basically Cal and his team will be deciding the next hire themselves with no other input and the last time that happened BoB got an extension. Now we all know how much you loved that choice so do you really want to leave it totally in their hands again.
I agree they are scared to decide on their own. But keeping Rick resulted in a weak coaching search followed by hiring O'Brien and having no alignment for 5 years.
I remember they did this too when they hired Reeves as a consultant to advise on David Carr. Reeves later denied he told the Texans to keep Carr.
And there was also keeping Casserly awhile through the draft, but I think kubiak ignored him.
To me, if you're gonna make the decision to buy a team, you should also be able to make the decision on who your football people are. Hiring or keeping someone around (like they did with Rick) makes things worse and takes away from crlaity on who's accountable. I don't see the Astros and rockets having a problem with this
You must really have a short term memory
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
A failed experiment.
Time to give Mancz back his job which he should not have lost in the first place.
Martin can move to guard or depth.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Cut Ben Jones, who Texans invested a 4th round pick on and use 2nd round pick on his replacement Center, Nicky Martin, and actually drop off in performance 69.8% Jones vs 59.3% Martin, Brilliant!
dream_team
Hall of Fame
To dig more into PFF scores for our OL.
Jeff Allen - had a 80+ season before joining the Texans, where he never broke 60
Zach Fulton - just had his lowest score of his 5 year career, by 10 points!
Senio Kelemete - just had his lowest score of his 6 year career
Martinas Rankin - lowest scored OT in the league
Nick Martin & XSF were highly touted prospects. It's not like the Texans reached on these picks. They were supposed to be plug & play guys, but both have never broke 70 points.
Even Duane Brown, in the past 8 seasons, his 3 lowest seasons were under BOB.
Oddly, according to PFF, Greg Mancz is our highest performing lineman, but he's regulated to the bench.
Now I'm not saying I know the problem, but it just seems like OLineman play their worse in this offense. So forgive me if I don't believe if we just add more talent, the OL will play significantly better.
Jeff Allen - had a 80+ season before joining the Texans, where he never broke 60
Zach Fulton - just had his lowest score of his 5 year career, by 10 points!
Senio Kelemete - just had his lowest score of his 6 year career
Martinas Rankin - lowest scored OT in the league
Nick Martin & XSF were highly touted prospects. It's not like the Texans reached on these picks. They were supposed to be plug & play guys, but both have never broke 70 points.
Even Duane Brown, in the past 8 seasons, his 3 lowest seasons were under BOB.
Oddly, according to PFF, Greg Mancz is our highest performing lineman, but he's regulated to the bench.
Now I'm not saying I know the problem, but it just seems like OLineman play their worse in this offense. So forgive me if I don't believe if we just add more talent, the OL will play significantly better.
Yes, but I think Ben left as a free agent. That year Brooks also left. O'Brien wanted his own guys.
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
Mancz can't stay healthy when asked to play regularly
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Jones had a much, much better environment to muggle through. And only @thunderkyss thought he was worth his salt
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
This is my exact mindset as well.. I have absolutely zero faith in Devlin and I'm bummed out he wasn't replaced. (While the Colts are hiring assistants like Howard Mudd). I have zero expectations of developing prospects under him too.
How many years did we have to endure shitty STs play? Well last year we had one of the top units (outside of that dumbass play in Tenn.).. what changed? Oh yeah, we finally hired a respectable coach with a resume of experience and success.
That's what you get when a guy tears completely the ligaments in his ankle. It's unfortunate because Martin was looking good in camp before this injury.
Texas Jake
Rookie
We have hired special teams coaches with good resumes before. I think the difference maker this past season was the GM was committed to finding talent to add to the special teams squad
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Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
I don't think talent was the big issue.. we've had players leave this team and become better players elsewhere.
Yet, look at the players drafted and signed in FA. Adding Reid/Peter K/Bademosi/Daniel/Howell etc... and all the sudden the ST's are much better. That and the best ST's coaching this franchise has ever had and I would say Gaine heavily invested in the ST's. It showed as the Texans (Other than the Tacks game) usually won the ST's part of the game. That was the one constant the team had and proves how valuable the ST's really are. Too bad they've had Marciano/Izzo etc... doing a piss poor job for a decade. Not that the former GM did them any favors by stocking the team with really good ST's guys. I mean when Peters and Blue (While good ST's guys) are your best ST's guys you're in trouble.
Or the Bears 10?
Texansphan
Football connoisseur
That can be because of better coaching yes, but it can also be better scheme fit, and an extra years experience/development.
& they have a better Center on the team in Mancz & Fulton.
I don't see how anyone can defend this coaching staff. Not Devlin, not O'Brien. It doesn't matter how many first or second round picks you don't have. It doesn't matter how much you didn't spend in FA. You have better talent on your roster & you still can't make obvious decisions .
Smartest guy in the room, short man syndrome, butt for a chin.... aaaaaarrrrgggghhh