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Stand for the Star Spangled Banner

NitroHonda said:
I would have slapped you if you were the one to tell me when I need to or when not to stand up. It's generally common courtesy to stand during the star spangled banner. I get your patriotism but chill out a little bit. The lady wasn't as patriotic as you. No big deal. I know a lot of Americans who aren't real too happy with our country and probably don't want to represent by standing.

I've been scolded one time too many for not standing and my tolerance runs thin sometimes. Everytime that I didn't stand, I didn't know they were playing the anthem (I'm Deaf) but once I realize it, I get right on it and stand as well as remove my hat. My point though is that virtually everytime that I've been scolded, it was in a rude manner hence why I'll respond with a dirty look right back at the one who just scolded me. Americans can be extreme. They're either for or against. By your anger, I'll take it that you're also extremely for.

Hey, I'm just as American as anyone else and I want our country to be represented well. Are we worthy of that right now? Bush? Iraq? Afghanistian? A lot of people don't think so. Then again, this IS a country of free speech and if a lady doesn't want to stand, then so be it. It's her right.
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I'll tell you this much.. I would have been pissed too. If someone didn't stand for MY anthem I'd go apeshit. I've been to various sporting events at other countries.. I stand for their anthem, even more so now. You do have a right to be pissed. Its not about what's going on in Iraq. Its not about who the president is. I got chastised one time for not going outside to pay respect for the flag at retreat. The most embarrassing thing I've ever done. I was a young and new to the AF at the time and just didn't want to go because it was hot out. There was a guy who came in after retreat and told me about how he understood how uncomfortable it was. That it gets damn hot in Oklahoma... it was probably about 100F outside that day. Then he told me about how hot it gets in Iraq. How its even hotter because you can't go home. He was very nice, and I was very ashamed.

I'm not going to pretend that I have made great sacrifices for this country. I don't know much more about war than your average American. I've stayed in the country for all of my enlistments. But you're not honoring the President, you're not honoring the national policy. You're honoring every person who has ever died to give you the freedoms you have today.

If you're from another country and you're not standing that's a problem too. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. That country, those people are hopefully being hospitable.. or you wouldn't go to a game I hope. Show them some courtesy and respect their traditions.

Mike
 
David_Carr said:
I remember the Rockets played Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf in '01 and I am 99% positive it was the opening game of the season, a little over a month removed from the terrosit attacks.

He wouldn't stand during the anthem (at the peak of American Patriotism in my generation), instead, he sat in a chair on the bench courtside and watched. The controversy had built regarding would he just stay in the tunnel until after the song or would he make himself the center of attention by mocking the national anthem.

He sat and after the anthem I booed...loudly...when they announced his name. He has the same right to *voice* his opinion in the same way I do mine.

You were within your free speech right to make a reasonable statement to her.

/hypocrite angle: If you roll up on me and make a comment about me smoking a cigarette in a perfectly legal environment to smoke in, you'll kindly get a "mind your own business" and a stern eyeballing. Nothing worse than fake-cough-anti-smoker person who acts like you just took a year off THEIR life by taking a drag.
Click to expand...

Blow smoke in my direction once, sure, possible oversight. Give me an evil eye, and do it again, and you'll be smoking your cigarette from a perfectly different orifice.
 
Let me tell you where I stand!!

My dad whom I had more disagreements with than Bush does with Clinton.

He served in WWII as a tail gunner for a B17 bomber, life expectansy of 2 missions (army-air core [no air force at the time) and they were killed or captured). So anyone telling me to put my flag can go stuff it. No one has gone through what I have and not come out a better person. I say (Yes Ma'aM and No m'am and No'Sir and yes 'Sir) what it respected and I do right by others.

This eve I talked to a friend bacuse of things and I know my life has been easier and harder than others, figure than one out spanky.

I have dated asian, indian (kuwait), austrailian, Irish and german ladies and ya know what I have learned most Americans do not understand freedom!!
 
hookinreds said:
If everyone gets what they want, nobody gets what they want.
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And we Americans typically get what we deserve.

I am a veteran, and like Texan Bill said, it's a hard, bitter pill to swallow, but she does have the right to sit during the Anthem, the same way those scumbags have the right to burn the flag. I don't actually have a problem with the act of either, to be perfectly honest. What I have a problem with is those people don't even begin to understand what a great country they live in that allows them to do such things. They burned flags during Vietnam - they should have been citizens of Cambodia a few years later and tried a stunt like that. Or try expressing their opinion in Communist China. The list goes on, but rest assured, they'd gladly stand for the Anthem if they realized those things.

In the meantime, our vets continue to fight and die for slugs like that. And it is the American way, for good or ill.
 
TD said:
Any hockey fans here? I'm curious what Canadians do during the Star Spangled Banner and what we do during Oh Canada.
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I'm Canadian and I stand for the Star Spangled Banner by choice. It shows respect and it's the proper thing to do. I remember my high school graduation ceremony (many years ago). They didn't play O Canada-they played God Save The Queen. To this day I still don't understand that. Everybody stood up, but after the ceremony a lot of kids (& parents) were asking why they excluded O Canada. My grandmother's British so of course I'll stand up, but it was strange to hear a "foreign anthem" for our graduation.

I did see a soccer game (yes-only 1) about 20 years ago in Toronto when Canada played Wales. I remember everybody stood for both anthems and a few people actually sang the Welsh anthem. I believe you should stand for the National Anthem. It's just disrespectful not to.
 
Texan_Bill said:
For the most part they respect the anthems both ways... Although I remember a Stanley Cup finals a couple/few of years ago that got pretty ugly with the Canadiens booing our Anthem at their house and then 'US Americans' booing the Canadien Anthem at the arena of whatever US city was in it...
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I remember that as well. That didn't last long though. The league had to ask people to not boo and when people realized it was a low class thing to do, it stopped. I don't remember if they stood or not, but sitting quietly is definitely a better choice than booing.
 
fredaustex said:
I remember that as well. That didn't last long though. The league had to ask people to not boo and when people realized it was a low class thing to do, it stopped. I don't remember if they stood or not, but sitting quietly is definitely a better choice than booing.
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Yep... It didn't last long at all. I thought it sucked from both perspectives anyway... it was more political, because we had just went into Iraq, IIRC.
 
excuse me while I alienate myself....

i don't stand for the national anthem. i am perfectly able and capable to do so. i choose not to. i agree with many of the opinions on this thread. i disagree with more. emotions are complicated things and it would be almost impossible for me to completely understand your opinions and where they are coming from just as it would be almost impossible for you to completely understand mine.

i feel fortunate to live in a country where i can choose to participate when and how i see fit. i can worship who and what i see fit. i can express myself however i see fit just so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights and freedom. just as you can. i think the key point here is that no matter what you believe, just remember that each and every person has the equal right to believe what they believe. for anyone here to tell me that a ceremony that is performed has any sort of right or wrong way to participate within our legal freedoms that are afforded to us is simply not true.

i know the point has been made many times over. you have every right to disagree with someone. they have every right to disagree with you. make no assumptions about a persons motivation until you know all of the facts. which you don't and you won't. you won't find me asking you to sit down. i won't assume that i know why you stand. all 70,000 (as if there were that many fans in the stadium at 11:45) are not standing for the exact same reasons.

i support the opinion of those who have served in the military, who feel that it is that exact freedom of dissent that they are defending. i find your stance both profound and moving and i thank you. even more so when you do not agree with some of the actions that you are in fact defending. after all, it is the "rights of the people" that you are protecting.

go texans.
 
*I ALWAYS regret posting in serious threads*

I respect your right to not stand for the anthem.

But I am of the opinion if you hate AMERICA so much, well, Mexcio isn't that far away.
 
barrett said:
excuse me while I alienate myself....

i don't stand for the national anthem. i am perfectly able and capable to do so. i choose not to. i agree with many of the opinions on this thread. i disagree with more. emotions are complicated things and it would be almost impossible for me to completely understand your opinions and where they are coming from just as it would be almost impossible for you to completely understand mine.

i feel fortunate to live in a country where i can choose to participate when and how i see fit. i can worship who and what i see fit. i can express myself however i see fit just so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights and freedom. just as you can. i think the key point here is that no matter what you believe, just remember that each and every person has the equal right to believe what they believe. for anyone here to tell me that a ceremony that is performed has any sort of right or wrong way to participate within our legal freedoms that are afforded to us is simply not true.

i know the point has been made many times over. you have every right to disagree with someone. they have every right to disagree with you. make no assumptions about a persons motivation until you know all of the facts. which you don't and you won't. you won't find me asking you to sit down. i won't assume that i know why you stand. all 70,000 (as if there were that many fans in the stadium at 11:45) are not standing for the exact same reasons.

i support the opinion of those who have served in the military, who feel that it is that exact freedom of dissent that they are defending. i find your stance both profound and moving and i thank you. even more so when you do not agree with some of the actions that you are in fact defending. after all, it is the "rights of the people" that you are protecting.

go texans.
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You disgust me.

You know, I almost left it at that. I almost stopped there. But I decided I was going to speak my mind.

You certainly have the right to sit. I suppose that's part of what I'm protecting too. You know, you can also spit in my face. I can't do a damn thing about it if you do. I'm not allowed to. You are part of the same group that I pass every Friday on the way to work that has their "Baby Killer" signs.

Congratulations, you are taking full advantage of the "freedom" to make an ass of yourself. That's what I think every time read an opinion like yours. Yes I serve to "defend your right not to stand". Funny you have no problem with someone making the ultimate sacrifice for you. But standing for the average of 1:44 is just out of the question isn't it. Fortunately for me and you, there were people before us who were a little less concerned with being uncomfortable (either philosophically or physically).

Mike
 
i stand.

I won't say the pledge of allegiance, cause it says god in it though...put me in the boat with him.
 
barrett said:
excuse me while I alienate myself....

emotions are complicated things and it would be almost impossible for me to completely understand your opinions and where they are coming from just as it would be almost impossible for you to completely understand mine.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I am just not as evolved. I never thought standing for the National Anthem was all that complicated. I pay my respects to those that fought at Omaha Beach, Antietam, Inchon, and Laos.

I've never thought I had to hang my complicated emotions out to do so either. To each his own I suppose. Next time, give yourself a pep talk - try standing.
 
swtbound07 said:
i stand.

I won't say the pledge of allegiance, cause it says god in it though...put me in the boat with him.
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Thank you for standing.

We'll save the boat and pledge conversation for another day. Do you have a problem with "One nation under God?"

Mike
 
swtbound07 said:
yep. We might be one nation, but i refuse to believe we're under one god. Im under no gods.
Click to expand...

Thats an easy enough fix, instead of saying:
"One Nation under God"
say:
"One Nation........"

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation............, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
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Not so hard. You have pledges allegiance to the US, without God in it
*****************************************************
I am refraining from the post about sitting during the Anthem until the blood quits boiling.
 
Texanmike said:
You disgust me.

You know, I almost left it at that. I almost stopped there. But I decided I was going to speak my mind.

You certainly have the right to sit. I suppose that's part of what I'm protecting too. You know, you can also spit in my face. I can't do a damn thing about it if you do. I'm not allowed to. You are part of the same group that I pass every Friday on the way to work that has their "Baby Killer" signs.

Congratulations, you are taking full advantage of the "freedom" to make an ass of yourself. That's what I think every time read an opinion like yours. Yes I serve to "defend your right not to stand". Funny you have no problem with someone making the ultimate sacrifice for you. But standing for the average of 1:44 is just out of the question isn't it. Fortunately for me and you, there were people before us who were a little less concerned with being uncomfortable (either philosophically or physically).

Mike
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Exactly my point Mike. People want all this freedom that we have, but they won't take a stand for it. We just owe it to them. It is actually frightening.
 
Texanfan4ever said:
Exactly my point Mike. People want all this freedom that we have, but they won't take a stand for it. We just owe it to them. It is actually frightening.
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I know. It makes me sick beyond words. Of course they have that right. The logic to me is simple.

If someone you knew was killed in action.
When they played the Anthem at their funeral, would you honor them by standing?

Why not do that for everyone else who has already died?


Oh well. I have to go out of the office for a while.

Mike
 
Yankee_In_TX said:
*I ALWAYS regret posting in serious threads*

I respect your right to not stand for the anthem.

But I am of the opinion if you hate AMERICA so much, well, Mexcio isn't that far away.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I also try to avoid these threads because emotions can run high. However I have to ask, how do you know he hates America? What if it is due to religious reasons? Some feel that saluting the flag or participating in the national anthem is a form of worship or idolatry to the state and refuse to participate for those reasons. There were some Christians groups in Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps and many executed for refusing to salute the flag or for even saying a simple greeting. The greeting was "Heil Hitler" which everyone was expected to say and some refused because they interpreted "Heil Hilter" as meaning "Hitler is our salvation". Their argument was that their only salvation was in Jesus Christ and they could not say that greeting in good concience. Well, many lost their lives for taking that stand.

Of course you have the account of the 3 Hebrews in the book of Daniel that refused to pay homage to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had built to glorify the state. They felt it was idolatry and were thrown into a fiery oven for refusing. Were they traitors to the state or were they putting their loyalty to God first?

I have read a lot of books on early Christianity and most early Christians refused to serve in the military services of their states or participate in rituals that honored their states because they felt it went contrary to what Jesus taught them. In one book written about early Christian persecution (Those About to Die by DP Mannix) it talks about rituals that were set up to honor the emperor of Rome and how most Christians refused to participate. Here is an exerpt "It was carefully explained to him (the Christian) that he was not "worshipping" the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape (imprisonment or death)."

So were early Christians traitors of Rome or did they hate the land where they lived? Or were they loyal to "God as ruler rather than men". The Bible teaches Christians to pay their taxes and be good citizens and obey the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's law. In Nazi Germany some Christians broke the "law of the land" because they felt obeying that law broke God's law.

Fortunately, we don't live in Nazi Germany and don't have to be thrown into camps or executed if we don't participate in state honoring rituals due to religious reasoning.

You may not agree with the above. However I personally don't feel Jesus himself would have been a patriot for any state. Actually, that is the charge that the Jews made up against him to the leaders of Rome, that he was a traitor to the state. This is mainly due to him saying that his Kingdom (government) was no part of this world and he was teaching his followers the same. So what argument can you pose to a Christian that feels this way? I can't think of a good one myself.

The bottom line is, you have to respect the beliefs of others whether you agree with them or not. I am sure most people that don't participate in the national anthem have their own personal reasons and them not participating has no impact on you or the state itself.
 
Well, in this case it's just people being lazy, I'm willing to bet. They should be reminded to stand.

The only person I have ever KNOWN who refused to stand and say the pledge was because he was weird and hated America.

Should people be sitting because of religious reasons, I personally can respect that.

But I can't come up with too many reasons NOT to stand that don't involve a statement against our country or its leadership (aside from disabilities).
 
hookinreds said:
Blow smoke in my direction once, sure, possible oversight. Give me an evil eye, and do it again, and you'll be smoking your cigarette from a perfectly different orifice.
Click to expand...

Cute.

I said nothing about blowing it in your face. That went out to the holier than thous who believe they are the cigarette cancer police.

/mind your business, it took one thread for me to realize we won't get along.
//back to the real topic

Can you imagine if we had to rely on some of these folks during WWII...those guys would walk out of a boat just to be raked by a machine gun and we can't get our generation to stand up for a song.
 
Yankee_In_TX said:
Well, in this case it's just people being lazy, I'm willing to bet. They should be reminded to stand.

The only person I have ever KNOWN who refused to stand and say the pledge was because he was weird and hated America.

Should people be sitting because of religious reasons, I personally can respect that.

But I can't come up with too many reasons NOT to stand that don't involve a statement against our country or its leadership (aside from disabilities).
Click to expand...

I agree with that and personally if they have religious reasons for not participating they should simply wait until after the ceremony to take their seats. It certainly does look disrespectful when one just sits there I won't argue that.
 
Hookem Horns said:
Hmm, I also try to avoid these threads because emotions can run high. However I have to ask, how do you know he hates America? What if it is due to religious reasons? Some feel that saluting the flag or participating in the national anthem is a form of worship or idolatry to the state and refuse to participate for those reasons. There were some Christians groups in Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps and many executed for refusing to salute the flag or for even saying a simple greeting. The greeting was "Heil Hitler" which everyone was expected to say and some refused because they interpreted "Heil Hilter" as meaning "Hitler is our salvation". Their argument was that their only salvation was in Jesus Christ and they could not say that greeting in good concience. Well, many lost their lives for taking that stand.

Of course you have the account of the 3 Hebrews in the book of Daniel that refused to pay homage to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had built to glorify the state. They felt it was idolatry and were thrown into a fiery oven for refusing. Were they traitors to the state or were they putting their loyalty to God first?

I have read a lot of books on early Christianity and most early Christians refused to serve in the military services of their states or participate in rituals that honored their states because they felt it went contrary to what Jesus taught them. In one book written about early Christian persecution (Those About to Die by DP Mannix) it talks about rituals that were set up to honor the emperor of Rome and how most Christians refused to participate. Here is an exerpt "It was carefully explained to him (the Christian) that he was not "worshipping" the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape (imprisonment or death)."

So were early Christians traitors of Rome or did they hate the land where they lived? Or were they loyal to "God as ruler rather than men". The Bible teaches Christians to pay their taxes and be good citizens and obey the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's law. In Nazi Germany some Christians broke the "law of the land" because they felt obeying that law broke God's law.

Fortunately, we don't live in Nazi Germany and don't have to be thrown into camps or executed if we don't participate in state honoring rituals due to religious reasoning.

You may not agree with the above. However I personally don't feel Jesus himself would have been a patriot for any state. Actually, that is the charge that the Jews made up against him to the leaders of Rome, that he was a traitor to the state. This is mainly due to him saying that his Kingdom (government) was no part of this world and he was teaching his followers the same. So what argument can you pose to a Christian that feels this way? I can't think of a good one myself.

The bottom line is, you have to respect the beliefs of others whether you agree with them or not. I am sure most people that don't participate in the national anthem have their own personal reasons and them not participating has no impact on you or the state itself.
Click to expand...

Excuse me, saluting the flag is a form of idolatry or worship? Seriously, WHO would see it as that? It is a salute to America and to the freedom that we all share.

The CHristian thing is another whole matter having nothing to do with our country's anthem.
 
David_Carr said:
Cute.

I said nothing about blowing it in your face. That went out to the holier than thous who believe they are the cigarette cancer police.

/mind your business, it took one thread for me to realize we won't get along.
//back to the real topic

Can you imagine if we had to rely on some of these folks during WWII...those guys would walk out of a boat just to be raked by a machine gun and we can't get our generation to stand up for a song.
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i have a right not to breathe your smoke. Take that stuff elsewhere. I don't want lung cancer for your stupid decisions.
 
Texanfan4ever said:
Excuse me, saluting the flag is a form of idolatry or worship? Seriously, WHO would see it as that? It is a salute to America and to the freedom that we all share.

The CHristian thing is another whole matter having nothing to do with our country's anthem.
Click to expand...

I think he was saying some people MAY feel that standing is a violation of their religious beliefs, I can respect that. I've witnessed many MUCH odder maifestations of religious beliefs in my life.

Now, back to bashing America haters....

team-america-world-police-1.jpg
 
Hookem Horns said:
Hmm, I also try to avoid these threads because emotions can run high. However I have to ask, how do you know he hates America? What if it is due to religious reasons? Some feel that saluting the flag or participating in the national anthem is a form of worship or idolatry to the state and refuse to participate for those reasons. There were some Christians groups in Nazi Germany that were thrown into camps and many executed for refusing to salute the flag or for even saying a simple greeting. The greeting was "Heil Hitler" which everyone was expected to say and some refused because they interpreted "Heil Hilter" as meaning "Hitler is our salvation". Their argument was that their only salvation was in Jesus Christ and they could not say that greeting in good concience. Well, many lost their lives for taking that stand.

Of course you have the account of the 3 Hebrews in the book of Daniel that refused to pay homage to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had built to glorify the state. They felt it was idolatry and were thrown into a fiery oven for refusing. Were they traitors to the state or were they putting their loyalty to God first?

I have read a lot of books on early Christianity and most early Christians refused to serve in the military services of their states or participate in rituals that honored their states because they felt it went contrary to what Jesus taught them. In one book written about early Christian persecution (Those About to Die by DP Mannix) it talks about rituals that were set up to honor the emperor of Rome and how most Christians refused to participate. Here is an exerpt "It was carefully explained to him (the Christian) that he was not "worshipping" the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape (imprisonment or death)."

So were early Christians traitors of Rome or did they hate the land where they lived? Or were they loyal to "God as ruler rather than men". The Bible teaches Christians to pay their taxes and be good citizens and obey the laws of the land as long as they don't violate God's law. In Nazi Germany some Christians broke the "law of the land" because they felt obeying that law broke God's law.

Fortunately, we don't live in Nazi Germany and don't have to be thrown into camps or executed if we don't participate in state honoring rituals due to religious reasoning.

You may not agree with the above. However I personally don't feel Jesus himself would have been a patriot for any state. Actually, that is the charge that the Jews made up against him to the leaders of Rome, that he was a traitor to the state. This is mainly due to him saying that his Kingdom (government) was no part of this world and he was teaching his followers the same. So what argument can you pose to a Christian that feels this way? I can't think of a good one myself.

The bottom line is, you have to respect the beliefs of others whether you agree with them or not. I am sure most people that don't participate in the national anthem have their own personal reasons and them not participating has no impact on you or the state itself.
Click to expand...

I have also stayed away from posting in this thread. Hookem Horns, I think you make some really good points. But, I also see a different perspective too.

It's the old cliche, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

You bring up Nazi Germany. Most Germans didn't care for the Nazi Party, but a fractured and fragmented society will yield to dictators and despots. Perfect example is Hitler. A very small amount of people can control a society if that society is not organized similar to a democracy with checks and balances.

The American Flag, the Star Spangled Banner, and others are symbols that and a society in the pursuit of virtue.

Personally, I believe you can't make someone appreciate the US and the freedoms we enjoy. You either get it, or you don't. Generally speaking about life, if you didn't earn it, you don't respect it.

I believe getting upset with someone about this situation is pointless. They can do what they want, which is the point of our society.
 
Yankee_In_TX said:
I think he was saying some people MAY feel that standing is a violation of their religious beliefs, I can respect that. I've witnessed many MUCH odder maifestations of religious beliefs in my life.

Now, back to bashing America haters....

team-america-world-police-1.jpg
Click to expand...


I know that is what he was saying, but I don't see how an anthem for one's country has anything to do with ANY kind of religion. To me it just means you are in our country enjoying our freedoms and you don't appreciate it or feel any loyalty towards it. It disgusts me. If they are not happy here, and can't do something as simple as standing to basically say "I'm proud to be an American" then go somewhere else where you won't be so miserable.

It is just simply black and white to me, barring any handicap of course. I've see people in wheel chairs every week with their hand over their hearts during the song, even though they can't stand up.
 
swtbound07 said:
i have a right not to breathe your smoke. Take that stuff elsewhere. I don't want lung cancer for your stupid decisions.
Click to expand...

Then go somewhere else.

I have the right to consume a legal product in a legal environment.

I quit going to the Mucky Duck when they imposed their no smoking ordinance, my habit was not welcome there, but there is a place for everyone...mine is in the smoking section.
 
hollywood_texan said:
I have also stayed away from posting in this thread. Hookem Horns, I think you make some really good points. But, I also see a different perspective too.

It's the old cliche, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.

You bring up Nazi Germany. Most Germans didn't care for the Nazi Party, but a fractured and fragmented society will yield to dictators and despots. Perfect example is Hitler. A very small amount of people can control a society if that society is not organized similar to a democracy with checks and balances.

The American Flag, the Star Spangled Banner, and others are symbols that and a society in the pursuit of virtue.

Personally, I believe you can't make someone appreciate the US and the freedoms we enjoy. You either get it, or you don't. Generally speaking about life, if you didn't earn it, you don't respect it.

I believe getting upset with someone about this situation is pointless. They can do what they want, which is the point of our society.
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Well put.

If it were a mandatory law to stand, we wouldn't be the free society that we are.
 
Texanmike said:
I'm not allowed to. You are part of the same group that I pass every Friday on the way to work that has their "Baby Killer" signs.
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That's a whole new thread in itself. I see "Save a life" signs, etc. and I tell my wife, why don't they save their own. They do not know what the mothers are going through.
 
Texanfan4ever said:
I know that is what he was saying, but I don't see how an anthem for one's country has anything to do with ANY kind of religion. To me it just means you are in our country enjoying our freedoms and you don't appreciate it or feel any loyalty towards it. It disgusts me. If they are not happy here, and can't do something as simple as standing to basically say "I'm proud to be an American" then go somewhere else where you won't be so miserable.
Click to expand...

Well, if it is due to religious reasons where are they going to go? If they feel saluting the flag is idolatry in this country I am sure they will feel the same in another country. Actually, in another country they might go to jail for that belief.

You may not see it but I see a lot of similarities between religion and patriotism. Both ramp up emotions, cause divisions, loyalties, hatred, people kill and give their lives in the name of both. I am sure I could go on.
 
M Shadows said:
That's a whole new thread in itself. I see "Save a life" signs, etc. and I tell my wife, why don't they save their own. They do not know what the mothers are going through.
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One day I'm going to stand next to the idiots over 59 (between Shepherd and Main) who have the Iraq/Bush signs and hold up a "honk if you're horny" sign.
 
I have studied Stalin a little and he made an interesting comment about the US.

Something along the lines, "The US will last as long as they maintain their virtue."

I see this situation along those same lines. I am by no means a fan of Stalin, but he had a certain belief of human nature and how that impacts a society. He didn't believe you can leave it up to an individual to do what is good for the state. His idea was getting results through the butt of gun or rifle barrell.

Point is, you really can't force people to do things, because then you are following the lines of Stalin.

Our society is based on free will, if it crumbles as a result, I really don't see how you can stop that since goes opposite of our belief structure. It's just an inherent flaw when a society is based on freedom. A free society requires the individual to maintain the state, not the other way around.

Which brings me back to the Stalin quote from above. Just some food for thought...
 
hollywood_texan said:
Our society is based on free will, if it crumbles as a result, I really don't see how you can stop that since goes opposite of our belief structure. It's just an inherent flaw when a society is based on freedom. A free society requires the individual to maintain the state, not the other way around.
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Uhm....I do believe that is the point. Keeping the faith is not a mandate of the state, its a privelidge of the individual. People who think so much of themselves than to do something so ridiculous as stand during a national anthem (or people who type paragraphs upon paragraphs in order to explain why they don't) are losing their freedom to do so.

The flaw is in the arrogance of the people, not in the virtue of the freedom.
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When the anthem plays at Reliant I take my hat off and stand up out of respect. However, I don't give a good goddamn what people around me do. As long as I show good manners that's all that matters to me. If people don't want to stand for our anthem then that's their business, not mine. Good manners are important to me. I'm only concerned that I have them. I'm not concerned if others show them.
 
swtbound07 said:
whats wrong to me here is the american insistance on conformity. Do i think its disrespectful? Yep. Probably intentionally so. How does it hurt you in any way what another person does? In a public venue. She paid just as much to sit in her seat as you did to stand in yours. People need to mind their own damn business. Was i standing with my hat off? Hell yes. Thats what i believe.
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I have been posting on the other board and forgot how much i missed reading your posts.
 
If for some reason, I am not paying attention when they make the announcement for the National Anthem, anyone on this board has permission to smack me in the back of the head to remove my hat and get on my feet... :specnatz:
 
Texanfan4ever said:
Barrett - why is that you do not stand? Can you explain your reasons?
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with all due respect, i'm going to refrain from going into the details of my personal choice. rather, i want to make it clear that it is a choice.

a separate thought: one is not necessarily intending to insult you just because you feel insulted.

-go texans
 
barrett said:
i'm going to refrain from going into the details of my personal choice.
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The man won't stand for an anthem commemorating the countless lives that have been paid for his personal use of free air, why on Earth would he stand by his reasons not to?
 
barrett said:
with all due respect, i'm going to refrain from going into the details of my personal choice. rather, i want to make it clear that it is a choice.

a separate thought: one is not necessarily intending to insult you just because you feel insulted.

-go texans
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I would agree with that. I don't know who is insulted, I am certainly not, just having a discussion about what happened.
 
To me it's not about religion or whether you agree with the policies of this country or not. It's about respect. It's about getting off your lazy ass and respecting the sacrifices of those who have given you the right to be here.

Just like anything else, you give something away without having someone earn it or put any effort into it, be it money, or a car, or a house, or freedom, in the end it will just get pissed away because there is no appreciation for it.
 
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