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Short middle?

Hey guys. Time after time we were beaten defensively in the shallow center of the field last year. Sincere question. Could these first two picks tonight help with that?
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Hey guys. Time after time we were beaten defensively in the shallow center of the field last year. Sincere question. Could these first two picks tonight help with that?
I am hoping Safety Tayshon Gipson will resolve that unless he is in O'Brien's dog house. He was signed to shutdown tight ends as this was his strength but was injured. Of possible import was in a recent news media meeting, Coach mention all safeties but Gipson. In addition, he brought in two free agents and paid one a lot to be a back up. We will see.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
New DC may install different zone principles or zone integrity.

Could help some. A better pass rush could help more.
 
Thank you. I didn’t know if there was a dynamic with “nose tackle” and edge rush that somehow effected the shallow middle. Similar to how pass rush helps pass protection and vice versa.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Thank you. I didn’t know if there was a dynamic with “nose tackle” and edge rush that somehow effected the shallow middle. Similar to how pass rush helps pass protection and vice versa.

I'd say theres a huge spectrum of factors that could effect that. Almost to many to list ,but you are right in identifying it as a problem.
 

Seegara

Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
I am hoping Safety Tayshon Gipson will resolve that unless he is in O'Brien's dog house. He was signed to shutdown tight ends as this was his strength but was injured. Of possible import was in a recent news media meeting, Coach mention all safeties but Gipson. In addition, he brought in two free agents and paid one a lot to be a back up. We will see.
That O'Brien makes me think about Gen. Patton as they portrayed him in the movie. If he likes you, you can do no wrong. If he doesn't like you, you get what Hopkins got. If he's mad at you, you're evil incarnate. That's how he coaches, so to hell with the cost.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
That O'Brien makes me think about Gen. Patton as they portrayed him in the movie. If he likes you, you can do no wrong. If he doesn't like you, you get what Hopkins got. If he's mad at you, you're evil incarnate. That's how he coaches, so to hell with the cost.
Patton was considered great and brilliant general but not wanted as a President.
 

Toro Bravo

Waterboy
Patton was considered great and brilliant general but not wanted as a President.
He was also considered a problem by his superiors. So much so that he wasn't part of the actual D-day invasion strike force but was used as a diversion to distract where the actual invasion took place.
But I do agree that if you're not a BOB guy, you probably never will be.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
New DC may install different zone principles or zone integrity.

Could help some. A better pass rush could help more.

I don't think a the pass rush is going to stop short routes over the middle - those are designed to take advantage of a pass rush …. Somebody's gotta be able to cover for that 2+ seconds so the pass rush can work its magic.

When the Texans drafted Cunningham , I really thought this problem would be behind them as that was one of his strengths in college , that hasn't been the case. McKinney isn't that guy either … and putting a safety on those big TE's is offering up a mismatch.

I think this is a personnel flaw …. they need a LBer who can cover. Cunningham is a free agent after this year and is probably going to cost 10M plus , its possible the team moves on from him and they draft a replacement early in next years draft - If they don't move on from Cunningham , it'll be 2023 before they address the position with any urgency.
 
He was also considered a problem by his superiors. So much so that he wasn't part of the actual D-day invasion strike force but was used as a diversion to distract where the actual invasion took place.
But I do agree that if you're not a BOB guy, you probably never will be.
Not to derail the thread into a history debate but his problems were purposely emphasized to make the Germans think that there was trouble in the ranks and thus delay a counter attack which the allied forces were not yet prepared to withstand.

 

badboy

Hall of Fame
I don't think a the pass rush is going to stop short routes over the middle - those are designed to take advantage of a pass rush …. Somebody's gotta be able to cover for that 2+ seconds so the pass rush can work its magic.

When the Texans drafted Cunningham , I really thought this problem would be behind them as that was one of his strengths in college , that hasn't been the case. McKinney isn't that guy either … and putting a safety on those big TE's is offering up a mismatch.

I think this is a personnel flaw …. they need a LBer who can cover. Cunningham is a free agent after this year and is probably going to cost 10M plus , its possible the team moves on from him and they draft a replacement early in next years draft - If they don't move on from Cunningham , it'll be 2023 before they address the position with any urgency.
While I agree with you Cunningham not going anywhere and may get extension during this season. He has significantly improved stats annually and in Weaver's D could be better player. Yes it irks when short pass is caught but IMO is not costing us games often. We need to make the WR/TE regret being on the field. Zach had 6 passes defended but needs to lay wood more. Is Greenard a possibility here? 6'3"; 30.5 vertical and by game 4 should be stronger. He had 4.34 twenty yard shuffle so should be able to target and impact catch.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I don't think a the pass rush is going to stop short routes over the middle - those are designed to take advantage of a pass rush …. Somebody's gotta be able to cover for that 2+ seconds so the pass rush can work its magic.

When the Texans drafted Cunningham , I really thought this problem would be behind them as that was one of his strengths in college , that hasn't been the case. McKinney isn't that guy either … and putting a safety on those big TE's is offering up a mismatch.

I think this is a personnel flaw …. they need a LBer who can cover. Cunningham is a free agent after this year and is probably going to cost 10M plus , its possible the team moves on from him and they draft a replacement early in next years draft - If they don't move on from Cunningham , it'll be 2023 before they address the position with any urgency.
If you let Cunningham, who I think is overrated and WFV or Stills go you have an extra 17-20 mil on the cap. You're about 1/2 way to resigning DW4.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
While I agree with you Cunningham not going anywhere and may get extension during this season. He has significantly improved stats annually and in Weaver's D could be better player. Yes it irks when short pass is caught but IMO is not costing us games often. We need to make the WR/TE regret being on the field. Zach had 6 passes defended but needs to lay wood more. Is Greenard a possibility here? 6'3"; 30.5 vertical and by game 4 should be stronger. He had 4.34 twenty yard shuffle so should be able to target and impact catch.
You can find Cunningham's replacement in the draft and probably get better in pass defense. Cleaning more of the house RS built. Cunningham is OK but certainly not worth 10 mil per yr.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
Not to derail the thread into a history debate but his problems were purposely emphasized to make the Germans think that there was trouble in the ranks and thus delay a counter attack which the allied forces were not yet prepared to withstand.

So..maybe McNairs making other teams think there are division between HC and players and then beat them in regular season?
:thinking: nah
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
If you let Cunningham, who I think is overrated and WFV or Stills go you have an extra 17-20 mil on the cap. You're about 1/2 way to resigning DW4.
If you let Zach go, now is the only way you will save his cap hit for #4 and do you allow Greenard to be the rookie starter opposite Scarlett?
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
You can find Cunningham's replacement in the draft and probably get better in pass defense. Cleaning more of the house RS built. Cunningham is OK but certainly not worth 10 mil per yr.
I don't want to be looking at a linebacker with our first pick in third round next draft hoping he will start. I don't think it matters if we think he isn't worth it somebody will pay it and I will be surprised if that somebody is other than obrien
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I don't want to be looking at a linebacker with our first pick in third round next draft hoping he will start. I don't think it matters if we think he isn't worth it somebody will pay it and I will be surprised if that somebody is other than obrien
What do you want to be looking at?

I considered LB to be a hole in last yrs draft.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
While I agree with you Cunningham not going anywhere and may get extension during this season. He has significantly improved stats annually and in Weaver's D could be better player. Yes it irks when short pass is caught but IMO is not costing us games often. We need to make the WR/TE regret being on the field. Zach had 6 passes defended but needs to lay wood more. Is Greenard a possibility here? 6'3"; 30.5 vertical and by game 4 should be stronger. He had 4.34 twenty yard shuffle so should be able to target and impact catch.
Greenard is an edge guy , not a guy you want to be putting in coverage on a regular basis. He's on the field to get after the QB.

If you let Cunningham, who I think is overrated and WFV or Stills go you have an extra 17-20 mil on the cap. You're about 1/2 way to resigning DW4.
You've got Watson under contract for this year and next …. with the option to franchise tag him after that.
Considering how poor a fit Watson and Ob are for each other and the "I don't know" about Watson's ceiling … I think it prudent to forget about extensions for now - Have him play out this season because there's the possibility that OB is gone next year giving a new staff a year of Watson on his 5th year option to make their evaluation , trade him , extend him or otherwise move on.
 

DocBar

Hall of Fame
Contributor's Club
I don't think a the pass rush is going to stop short routes over the middle - those are designed to take advantage of a pass rush …. Somebody's gotta be able to cover for that 2+ seconds so the pass rush can work its magic.

When the Texans drafted Cunningham , I really thought this problem would be behind them as that was one of his strengths in college , that hasn't been the case. McKinney isn't that guy either … and putting a safety on those big TE's is offering up a mismatch.

I think this is a personnel flaw …. they need a LBer who can cover. Cunningham is a free agent after this year and is probably going to cost 10M plus , its possible the team moves on from him and they draft a replacement early in next years draft - If they don't move on from Cunningham , it'll be 2023 before they address the position with any urgency.
What will it cost and who do you think is worthy for the Texans to be able to draft any player high in the 2021 draft? They don't have a pick until the 3 rd round. I doubt Tunsil or Stills will be playing LB and I'm pretty sure they'd both be a liability in coverage if they did.
 

RGV82

Random guy
What will it cost and who do you think is worthy for the Texans to be able to draft any player high in the 2021 draft? They don't have a pick until the 3 rd round. I doubt Tunsil or Stills will be playing LB and I'm pretty sure they'd both be a liability in coverage if they did.
BOB will try and get rid of David Johnson after this season, and realize the most he can get for him is a 6th rounder.
 

Rich Schmidt

Myopicone
Dylan Cole is the LB that can cover. He just gets hurt every year, season ending. Need to see what Zach wants, I don't think you just say get a replacement in the draft, he is beasting, but every position and position group has a value/budget to me so have to see where this goes and I would prefer dropping McKinney as he is more one dimensional. The wildcard is the salary cap, if revenue goes down due to covid, so does the cap unless the owners suck it up, but in theory we could have a smaller cap in 2021 which would hurt
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
What will it cost and who do you think is worthy for the Texans to be able to draft any player high in the 2021 draft? They don't have a pick until the 3 rd round. I doubt Tunsil or Stills will be playing LB and I'm pretty sure they'd both be a liability in coverage if they did.

It's way too early to talk about the 2021 draft class , hell we don't even know if there will be a season. We may be evaluating that draft based off of last years tapes.

Then there's the lack of draft picks …. Do you really expect to find a top tier starter at the position in round 3.

I think its safe to say that they can't pay all of McKinney , Mercilus and Cunningham $30m between them in 2021. Not having screwed up the cap with the DHop trade , extending Tunsil and having WFV and Watson coming due. Someone from that group has to go …. I doubt it's Mercilus with $15m+ in dead money , could be McKinney with only 1.5m in dead money - Or Cunningham who will be a free agent.

People keep pointing to the projected cap jump next year …. That was before Covid. We may see them playing in empty stadiums in a contracted economy. I wouldn't count on at cap jump under those circumstances.
That's another reason I prefer to have Watson play out the 5th year option rather than hand him a contract that re-writes the standard for the position - that along with the fact that I'm not convinced he's worth that being so up and down - one week looks great , the next not so much.
They are going to be up against it cap wise ……. with no premium picks. Going to be some difficult decisions in front of them because of this.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
What will it cost and who do you think is worthy for the Texans to be able to draft any player high in the 2021 draft? They don't have a pick until the 3 rd round. I doubt Tunsil or Stills will be playing LB and I'm pretty sure they'd both be a liability in coverage if they did.
I dont know if about Texans worthy. But a cover guy like Daveon Taylor was available in the 3rd rd. According to BB they are going to have three 3rd rd picks and two 4th rd picks. So they definitely have the ammo to move up into the 2nd rd.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I dont know if about Texans worthy. But a cover guy like Daveon Taylor was available in the 3rd rd. According to BB they are going to have three 3rd rd picks and two 4th rd picks. So they definitely have the ammo to move up into the 2nd rd.

The question is .… how many positions are they going to have to fill.

With the cap situation , you could see big holes at RB with David Johnson gone if he doesn't perform very well (5.85m in cap savings if he's cut) - WR could be a disaster , particularly if Cooks doesn't play well - no dead money in cutting him if he doesn't , Stills contract expires after this season and then there's Fuller who will be an unrestricted free agent. If he has a good year , he could easily get offers well above the Texans price range.

And we haven't even gotten around to talking about Cornerback …. and the very real possibility of a contracting cap.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The question is .… how many positions are they going to have to fill.

With the cap situation , you could see big holes at RB with David Johnson gone if he doesn't perform very well (5.85m in cap savings if he's cut) - WR could be a disaster , particularly if Cooks doesn't play well - no dead money in cutting him if he doesn't , Stills contract expires after this season and then there's Fuller who will be an unrestricted free agent. If he has a good year , he could easily get offers well above the Texans price range.

And we haven't even gotten around to talking about Cornerback …. and the very real possibility of a contracting cap.
DJ's money should be alloted to CB if he doesn't play well if he does then he's cheap next yr. The WR's I think last yr was an aberration for Cooks and he will play well next yr. WFV would be gone and his $$$$ would be spent on the best FA CB I could find. I would use his $$$$ and a Cooks restructure to play for a top flight CB. Then draft a LB that could cover after trading up into the 2nd rd.

Of course I would've used have taken on DJ's money and either cut somebody else, Stills? and signed Byron Jones. If that didn't work I would've used DJ's money and the Gipson cut savings to re-sign Reader. Then drafted a guy like McFarland.

DJ's money really limited what they could do this offseason and this was a mistake by BOB. However if you get 2016 DJ then it's a win. (Doubtful.)

The WFV replacement would be Stills who I would bring back. (Hopefully cheaper) and a drafted rookie in the 4th plus Coulter if he looks like he has potential.
 
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badboy

Hall of Fame
I dont know if about Texans worthy. But a cover guy like Daveon Taylor was available in the 3rd rd. According to BB they are going to have three 3rd rd picks and two 4th rd picks. So they definitely have the ammo to move up into the 2nd rd.
Who is going to have those draft picks? Certainly not Houston.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
Who is going to have those draft picks? Certainly not Houston.
You said they had three 3rd rd picks coming and two 4th rd picks.

I haven't looked into the 2021 draft. But they should have enough ammo to move up into the 2nd and get a LB that can cover.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
? Where did I say that?
Somebody said that, I thought it was you.

I apologize for misquoting you.

As far as the 2021 draft goes if I really liked a CB that fell or a LB that was a really good cover guy then I would trade a 2021 3rd and a 2022 2nd to trade up and get that guy.

They could trade say a 2021 3rd/4th/6th and move up into the 2nd. They have extra picks in those rds.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Somebody said that, I thought it was you.

I apologize for misquoting you.

As far as the 2021 draft goes if I really liked a CB that fell or a LB that was a really good cover guy then I would trade a 2021 3rd and a 2022 2nd to trade up and get that guy.

They could trade say a 2021 3rd/4th/6th and move up into the 2nd. They have extra picks in those rds.

I'm firmly planted against trading away any future picks while OB is still the GM / HC. The cap situation is bad enough and the cupboard is bare of premium picks and the roster is full of holes.

When he's finally gone , I want the new regime to have a clean slate , a full set of picks and cap space to go get their guys. I want year one of that new regime to be about building a future , not cleaning up the past. We can only hope that this is sooner than later.
 

Rich Schmidt

Myopicone
I'm firmly planted against trading away any future picks while OB is still the GM / HC. The cap situation is bad enough and the cupboard is bare of premium picks and the roster is full of holes.

When he's finally gone , I want the new regime to have a clean slate , a full set of picks and cap space to go get their guys. I want year one of that new regime to be about building a future , not cleaning up the past. We can only hope that this is sooner than later.
I agree, he has traded away enough and we need to mix in cheap labor and have his coaching staff nail developing the picks he as GM wants. You can only go so far on free agents. We had some cap space to leverage so the Tunsil deal was ok by me, but he needs to get more focused on the draft and building a team
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I agree, he has traded away enough and we need to mix in cheap labor and have his coaching staff nail developing the picks he as GM wants. You can only go so far on free agents. We had some cap space to leverage so the Tunsil deal was ok by me, but he needs to get more focused on the draft and building a team
That will happen after the 2021 draft.

I think there's alot of wishful thinking going on around here.
 

badboy

Hall of Fame
1st - Traded in Tunsil deal
2nd - Traded in Tunsil deal
3rd - Texans
4th - Texans
4th - From Arizona in Hopkins deal
5th - Texans
6th - Texans
6th - From New Orleans for 2020 7th
7th - Texans
Thanks, was under impression that we pick up another 6th in a trade. Perhaps it was for 2022? I do expect to get quality guys with our first three picks.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
1st - Traded in Tunsil deal
2nd - Traded in Tunsil deal
3rd - Texans
4th - Texans
4th - From Arizona in Hopkins deal
5th - Texans
6th - Texans
6th - From New Orleans for 2020 7th
7th - Texans
I'm not sure about any comp picks.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Better communication between the secondary and linebacker core.

More consistent pass rush. Different looks to hopefully throw these quarterbacks off.

Game planning for these quick short routes.
 
I thought this thread died with General Patton. Thank you for the additional insight and back and forth. Seems like this issue wasn’t addressed in the draft and the problem is going to persist unless Cole stays healthy, Zach improves, communication between DB’s/LB’s improve and or scheme is changed. Gipson leaving didn’t help. Anyhow, I hope something is figured out. It’s been a big and obvious weakness easily exploited.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
I thought this thread died with General Patton. Thank you for the additional insight and back and forth. Seems like this issue wasn’t addressed in the draft and the problem is going to persist unless Cole stays healthy, Zach improves, communication between DB’s/LB’s improve and or scheme is changed. Gipson leaving didn’t help. Anyhow, I hope something is figured out. It’s been a big and obvious weakness easily exploited.

Sadly …. I don't feel like this is the worst problem this defense will face this season.

The loss of Reader is the thing that bothers me the most - in a division where every team is looking to be run heavy (other than the Texans).

If teams are ripping off 4-5-6 yards on 1st down runs , they are going to be in an awful lot of 2nd / 3rd and short and few situations where the pass rushers can tee off and that's really going to expose the back end …. that is the weakest position group on the roster.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
When the Texans drafted Cunningham , I really thought this problem would be behind them as that was one of his strengths in college , that hasn't been the case. McKinney isn't that guy either … and putting a safety on those big TE's is offering up a mismatch
I thought Cunningham had his best year in coverage.

imo we're not a good zone team. Get us in m2m & it's easy to scheme an open middle.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
I thought Cunningham had his best year in coverage.

imo we're not a good zone team. Get us in m2m & it's easy to scheme an open middle.

And @Corrosion

Cunningham is by a mile our best coverage backer specifically in space. Maybe he isn't always schemed right and like all backers in a mismatch he can be exposed in man to man coverage. Overall I think he does a fine job in coverage.

If he were used in the "short middle" it would be a non issue and the thread title would instead be the:

Middle - middle

Or

Deep - middle
 

banned1976

Fire Bill O’Brien
This deserves more attention...


PFF HOU Texans (@PFF_Texans) Tweeted:
The Texans' top linebackers have similar and well-defined strengths and weaknesses.

Highest run stop percentage:
1. Zach Cunningham (14.2)
15. Benardrick McKinney (9.5)

Highest passer rating allowed:
3. Benardrick McKinney (140.1)
12. Zach Cunningham (124.5) https://t.co/7SETcjoGT7


But people are focused on the offense. The big problems are on the defensive side of the football, folks.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
But people are focused on the offense. The big problems are on the defensive side of the football, folks.
They let Reader, Joseph, & Gipson go.

They brought in Jernigan, some guy named Murray & spent our two highest draft picks on defense.

Romeo once again "retires" from the sideline & we promote a new DC from within.

What would you like to discuss?
 


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