Say no to our Jake Plummer clone in Houston

[Carr Bombed]

Other than those St Louis teams, has there ever been a West Coast Offense, or a Run and Shoot offense to win the Big one, or have long term success??


Football is won on defense, and between the tackles. I totally agree with that.

San Fransico built a dynasty off of it, Jon Gruden runs it in Tampa and they won a superbowl, Green Bay went to two superbowls won one, and Seattle is on their way to a Superbowl.

Yes football is won with Defense, but just because we have a offensive minded coach doesn't mean we can't have a dominant defense.

This is the LAST time I'm going to post this

Arguably the top 3 Defenses of alltime were led by OFFENSIVE MINDED COACHES:

85 bears
'00 ravens
'02 Bucs

Other than Belichick ALL the superbowls won over the past DECADE were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches and if you go back throughout the history of the superbowl alot more were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches.

 

[bakerooskie]

What good is defense if you have a team that can't perform on the offensive side of the field, and put points on the board? It's good to be able to stop a team in they're tracks, but you will never get anywhere if you cannot score... Offense is the way to go...

 

[thunderkyss]

Check this sight out:

http://www.westcoastoffense.com/

And

http://www.e-sports.com/articles/71/1/Bill-Walsh:-Legacy-of-"The-Genius"

It says, "Since Walsh became the head coach of the San Francisco 49ers in 1979, 25 Super Bowls have been played. Of those 25 Super Bowls, Walsh and his disciples have won 10, while 11of the 29 coaches who have participated in that game over that same time span are also linked to him."



To answer your questions.

Okay..... when I say WestCoast offense, I mean a true west coast system, with timed plays(the QB throws the ball before the break is made), Short passing games, and a RB like Reggie bush who is better at catching out of the back field, than he is it at carring the ball.

In a West Coast system, you don't care if the RB can handle more than 15 carries a game, because the game plan would not call for the RB to carry 15 times a game.

When SanFran won their superbowls, they had really good RBs didn't they?? Garrison Hurst, Roger Craig, Ricky Waters?? Denver had Terrell Davis... a Running back would not get 2000 yards in one season, in the West coast offense. I can't remember who GB had, but I don't think they were any more west coast than the Dallas Cowboys. St Louis I think was the only true WCO to win the superbowl, every other team may have been using variations, but they weren't WCO.

 

[HoustonFrog]

San Fransico built a dynasty off of it, Jon Gruden runs it in Tampa and they won a superbowl, Green Bay went to two superbowls won one, and Seattle is on their way to a Superbowl.

Yes football is won with Defense, but just because we have a offensive minded coach doesn't mean we can't have a dominant defense.

This is the LAST time I'm going to post this

Arguably the top 3 Defenses of alltime were led by OFFENSIVE MINDED COACHES:

85 bears
'00 ravens
'02 Bucs

Other than Belichick ALL the superbowls won over the past DECADE were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches and if you go back throughout the history of the superbowl alot more were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches.

I agree in part but it wasn't like the Pats havn't won 3 of the last 4. I wouldn't call Landry, Knoll, Parcells, or even Jimmy Johnson etc offensive guys out and out. I think guys like Cowher, Fox, Dungy, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis proved that the better team may have had D minded guys this year. But your point is true, any guy can get it done, it is the coordinators and players you surround yourself with.

 

[Wolf]

Well FA could speed things up but I figure about 2 years away if we went West coast.. and when we draft that..who knows what kind of defense we would need (if we have one at all)

We still need a TE and #2 WR to go with OL

noone on our team would be mistaken for a Brett Jones,Novachek,sharp..

I truly belive for a team to be sucessful, you have to have a above average TE.. stats will probably show otherwise, but I think TE is a QB's best friend to get out of trouble.

 

[Carr Bombed]

I agree in part but it wasn't like the Pats havn't won 3 of the last 4. I wouldn't call Landry, Knoll, Parcells, or even Jimmy Johnson etc offensive guys out and out. I think guys like Cowher, Fox, Dungy, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis proved that the better team may have had D minded guys this year. But your point is true, any guy can get it done, it is the coordinators and players you surround yourself with.

Regardless if you have a offensive or defensive minded coach, it still takes a BALANCED team to win it all (Ravens will be the exception). Even the great Pats superbowls (except for last years) were won on last minute drives by their offense. A balanced team will beat a one demensional team, regardless if its offense or defense anyday.

 

[Wolf]

I agree in part but it wasn't like the Pats havn't won 3 of the last 4. I wouldn't call Landry, Knoll, Parcells, or even Jimmy Johnson etc offensive guys out and out. I think guys like Cowher, Fox, Dungy, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis proved that the better team may have had D minded guys this year. But your point is true, any guy can get it done, it is the coordinators and players you surround yourself with.

Exactly.. Jimmy had Wandstedt and Turner .. but Wandstedt and Turner did ok but have "struggled" as HC... when I say that and it is unfair to judge them to JJ when they were with them, but that is the standard that was set.

Dave had a decent record in Miami.. and Norv well he has gone from Redskins to Raiders and now looking.. bottom line is (can I quote Jerry Glandville) "this is the NFL ..meaning Not For Long " when you are decent.

 

[PapaL]

But he isn't a Starbuck, Bradshaw, or a Warren Moon. He's a far cry from Trent Dilfer, but plays in a similar system......... Steve Smith just changes everything.

I think you mean Roger Staubach. But If Starbucks was a QB, I bet he would be a scrambler.

 

[htsone]

Of a number 1 pick. Watching him sashay around the backfield is just laughable. There was one specific play this year that completely turned me against him. The ball was knocked out of his hand, and his effiminate "rear" stood around and watched the scrum.

hts

 

[DRAMA]

And I thought Plummer had the flu...

Oh well, maybe we should let Kubiak stay in Denver, too. I mean, look at at what he had Plummer do today!! It's all Kubiak's fault...

blah...blah.....and Reggie Bush is too small...blah..blah...Vince Young...blah...VY....blah.....Vinsanity....blah...blah.....he's a hometown boy....blah....

 

[IshouldbeGM]

today does not prove why we need vy....today proves why we need to upgrade our defense. The only texan defender who could start for pittsburgh would be d robinson. We dont have a nfl caliber defense....today proves why we need real safeties, d-lineman, linebackers, and a real d coordinator!! When u have a true defense, your in any game

 

[bakerooskie]

We need someone to protect our QB and number one draft pick... Our line was getting pushed around this whole year... Let's not discuss our number one pick, let's focus on our lack of strength and skill on our offensive line... Just a thought.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Well FA could speed things up but I figure about 2 years away if we went West coast.. and when we draft that..who knows what kind of defense we would need (if we have one at all)

We still need a TE and #2 WR to go with OL

noone on our team would be mistaken for a Brett Jones,Novachek,sharp..

I truly belive for a team to be sucessful, you have to have a above average TE.. stats will probably show otherwise, but I think TE is a QB's best friend to get out of trouble.

Agree completely. TE is huge. Look at the teams over the years and todays games. Miller for Pitt has had a big impact for his first year and Jeremy Stevens has had a big playoffs for Seattle. Novachek, Shannon Sharp, etc were all guys who made tough catches, got you 1st downs and took a ton of pressure off the outside receivers and RBs. If you can get guys in that seam then it opens up so much.

 

[Marcus]

What good is defense if you have a team that can't perform on the offensive side of the field, and put points on the board? It's good to be able to stop a team in they're tracks, but you will never get anywhere if you cannot score... Offense is the way to go...

Spoken like a true "I don't care if they win, I just want to be entertained" football fan.

 

[bakerooskie]

With the right direction our defense could flourish... Our defensive line could use some work, but our backfield will shape up in a year or two... I think our D will be fine...

 

[Wolf]

With the right direction our defense could flourish... Our defensive line could use some work, but our backfield will shape up in a year or two... I think our D will be fine...

I agree with that.. I think Fangio's system ..I will leave that alone being we all heard the player's complaints.

I also believe the OL isn't in shambles.. Weigart and Wade weren't that bad before they came here.. McKinney..well I don't like him a Center, he seems to get pushed back.. get him to guard or heck with Weigart/Wade/McKinney that is a hunk of change McNair is paying to keep Carr upright..I am wondering if one will be gone. Pitts is our best .. Wand is confusing to me if it were the coaches or players.. I just don't know who Riley could beat him out and then Riley out of the NFL (not sure if he has been picked up yet)..


Where is Agent Scully and Agent Mulder when we need them???

 

[bakerooskie]

WoW, I would hope that Bob McNair, Dan Reeves, Many scouts, 7 Coaching canidates and Gary Kubiak would have already made that assumption and said we are not giving Carr his extention because he is a loser.

"Takes one to know one".

Vary good...

 

[dat_boy_yec]

I really find it hard to believe that this statements and such get so much support. Everybody says Plumber is to blame for the loss, here's a new perspective. THE STEELER'S PLAYED BETTER FOOTBALL. They made Manning look like **** and they have been doing that all this yr. You think VY is gonna be able to run over a team like that? HELL NO. Vick's last game againts the Panthers produced zero rushing yds. I just don't get how some of you ppl make all these assumptions from watching other teams.

 

[Napa Auto Parts]

Like i said before i doubt Carr will be good as plummer. he has showed no leadership skills no playmaking ability so we dont have to worry about that. but plummer does look like a homeless bum with that beard

 

[Nighthawk]

Yeah, but Vince could have single-handedly beaten the Steelers.

Well, Vince is bigger, faster, stronger, quicker, and he wins a lot. He's allowed to have the bad motion if he wins with it.

 

[bakerooskie]

David get's no love on this board... Well, I think he can pull through and get his game together... With the right coaching, he just might pick up a few skills that will help him become a good leader...

 

[Carr Bombed]

Hey I guess Carr is a Delhome clone too, since he has thrown three picks

 

[CaptainPatriot]

If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.

I was thinking the same thing watching the AFCC game. I was visualizing the Texans at home with all this supporting cast (Bush ETC: ) in the AFC Championship Game and Carr losses it for us with T.O.`s and Indecisiveness. Hope this is a WAKEUP CALL to upper Management! Get you all hyped up and crash and burn in the biggest game of Texan's history! Need to 'nip it in the bud" now. LETS GIVE VY A CHANCE! Also LEADERSHIP is not like a Switch you can just turn on either. Did anyone see LEADERSHIP by Plummer in that game?


Didn't think so.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Well, Vince is bigger, faster, stronger, quicker

yeah I know he's the million dollar man, he's the savior.

I mean Jesus prayed to Vince and asked him to bless his food during the last dinner.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Hey I guess Carr is a Delhome clone too, since he has thrown three picks

LOL..I was thinking this would come up. People need to stop comparing Carr to every QB they see play in the playoffs. A guy having a bad game isn't a "see the best QBs have a bad game when pressured" thing and a guy having a great game isn't the "see what Dave could do in a system like that" thing. It is all independent and we will see over this next year what person comes out of this. He is himself and that is it.

 

[Nighthawk]

The only thing around here that can be associated with a "loser" is posts like this. First of all Carr and Plummer, two completely different men,

This seems wrong. Plummer is like a smarter, better-passing, more aggressive Carr who is more elusive and makes plays with his feet as well as his arm. THey are different, but they do have something in common, and that is that they are both kind of middle-of-the-pack NFL QBs. David's a LOT slower moving around than Jake. David looks like he might have a stronger arm. Clearly Plummer was busted up in today's game, rushed and harried and he was game but couldn't make anything happen. I put that down in some large measure to the scheme--the Broncs were NOT well-prepared for the Steeler D. They looked clueless out there.

All that said, seems to me that you CAN SAY that Carr is sort of a slightly junior grade, heavy-footed, more conservative Jake Plummer with a strong arm and zero leadership skills, and be pretty much on target. If that's what "Kubes" wants to build his coaching legend on, so be it.

 

[bakerooskie]

What's going on with Jake Delhome... This is a horrible game for him... I think the guy can't handle the pressure.

 

[Wolf]

Personally, I want to see what a REAL offensive coordinator can do with Carr.. I would have liked to have seen what Palmer could do with Carr WITHOUT Capers holding the reigns. Honestly with the way Capers liked to run the offense.. why did we draft AJ #3 overall, so he'd be used as a decoy?


I am hoping this team isn't going to be like the Dolphins in the late '80's and early '90's were they were drafting RB after RB in the 1st round to compliment Marino.. instead we are drafting QB after QB in the 1st round

 

[bakerooskie]

Personally, I want to see what a REAL offensive coordinator can do with Carr.. I would have liked to have seen what Palmer could do with Carr WITHOUT Capers holding the reigns. Honestly with the way Capers liked to run the offense.. why did we draft AJ #3 overall, so he'd be used as a decoy?


I am hoping this team isn't going to be like the Dolphins in the late '80's and early '90's were they were drafting RB after RB in the 1st round to compliment Marino.. instead we are drafting QB after QB in the 1st round

The fealing is mutual...

 

[Carr Bombed]

This seems wrong. Plummer is like a smarter, better-passing, more aggressive Carr who is more elusive and makes plays with his feet as well as his arm. THey are different, but they do have something in common, and that is that they are both kind of middle-of-the-pack NFL QBs. David's a LOT slower moving around than Jake. David looks like he might have a stronger arm. Clearly Plummer was busted up in today's game, rushed and harried and he was game but couldn't make anything happen. I put that down in some large measure to the scheme--the Broncs were NOT well-prepared for the Steeler D. They looked clueless out there.

All that said, seems to me that you CAN SAY that Carr is sort of a slightly junior grade, heavy-footed, more conservative Jake Plummer with a strong arm and zero leadership skills, and be pretty much on target. If that's what "Kubes" wants to build his coaching legend on, so be it.

First of all I'm sick of the zero leadership posts. Lets see Carr was put behind the worst offensive line in NFL history, its kinda hard to lead a team down the field when you can't even get off your back. Lets look at other QBs put in the same situation. Steve Young, I guess he was a LOSER who had absolutely no LEADERSHIP when he played on the Bucs, yet later on in his career when he was put in a winning situation he led the 49ers to championships and became a hall of famer. Lets look at another QB, Plunkett who was put on a absolute horrid team, but again when put into a winning situation, was able to LEAD a raiders team to become the FIRST wild card team to win the superbowl.

Its funny that you say Plummer is a more aggressive qb than Carr, I'd call it more mistake prone. Despite playing behind the worst Oline Carr has still managed to keep his INTs and mistakes down while throwing for more TDs. Plummer hasn't played on a team like ours and if he did he would be ran out of town. Its also funny how you say Carr is heavy footed like he is Peyton or Marino, He lead the AFC in rushing yards last year and is just as mobile as Plummer.

People like to place ALL the blame on Carr, wake up. The QB gets too much praise and too much BLAME. There isn't a QB in this leauge that could of had success on this team (including the almighty greek god Vince). Carr gave this team multiple 4th quarter leads which the defense and the conservative coaching staff blew.

This is the line in the sand, All the new fans that have joined in the last month or anybody else that says they aren't going to be a fan of this team if Vince isn't drafted, save yourself time and latch on to another team,(or whatever team that drafts Vince) because I hate to tell you this. Vince isn't going to be drafted by the houston texans. Carr is going to be quarterbacking this team next year.

 

[guichows6]

From what I can tell, it looks like we are drafting Bush...and although Im sure it will help the team in the long run (it wont happen next year) we wont be better than if we were to draft Young...I like Carr and all, but I honestly dont think he has, what Vince has...the "IT" factor. 12-15 yrs from now, we'll still be looking for that first trip to the superbowl while Vince will of had a few...under the titans! (if thats where he goes). Hell be going into the HoF, while we just look back to 2006 and say "Damn, we really missed out on something special" I mean seriously, the stars are aligned ppl...Hes from houston, wants to play here, our new coach is also a native, all season he proved he has the heart of a champ! All season he brought his team from the dead to win, and stay on track to prove he is the best college player in recent memory to come into the draft. Not only did he do it all season, but he did it on the biggest sports stage not to mention highest rated, game in college footbal history! Everyone witnessed how calm he was toward the end of the game to come back and win!! Im sorry but if we pass this guy up, it will be one of the biggest regrets this ballclub will have in the next few years. Ive been saying all season long that I wished Vince could somehow be a Texan someday...and gualla...he declares for the draft...Bush will be good, but will definetly not be around as long as vince (according to career spans based on position you play) and definetly, will not be as big of an impact as Vince can be...just my 2 cents. I will root for the texans regardless as my #1 team, but if vince goes to tennessee, than I will be forced to root for them too! Or wherever he goes!

 

[Erratic Assassin]

If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl.

Maybe if Carr can be the next Matt Hasselback he can lead his team to the Superbowl.

 

[infantrycak]

Funny, in the last two weeks we have seen excellent QB's Manning and Delhomme and a pro-bowl QB Plummer look like crud when consistantly pressured. Naaah, probably just a coincidence, never mind.

 

[Carr Bombed]

From what I can tell, it looks like we are drafting Bush...and although Im sure it will help the team in the long run (it wont happen next year) we wont be better than if we were to draft Young...I like Carr and all, but I honestly dont think he has, what Vince has...the "IT" factor. 12-15 yrs from now, we'll still be looking for that first trip to the superbowl while Vince will of had a few...under the titans! (if thats where he goes). Hell be going into the HoF, while we just look back to 2006 and say "Damn, we really missed out on something special" I mean seriously, the stars are aligned ppl...Hes from houston, wants to play here, our new coach is also a native, all season he proved he has the heart of a champ! All season he brought his team from the dead to win, and stay on track to prove he is the best college player in recent memory to come into the draft. Not only did he do it all season, but he did it on the biggest sports stage not to mention highest rated, game in college footbal history! Everyone witnessed how calm he was toward the end of the game to come back and win!! Im sorry but if we pass this guy up, it will be one of the biggest regrets this ballclub will have in the next few years. Ive been saying all season long that I wished Vince could somehow be a Texan someday...and gualla...he declares for the draft...Bush will be good, but will definetly not be around as long as vince (according to career spans based on position you play) and definetly, will not be as big of an impact as Vince can be...just my 2 cents. I will root for the texans regardless as my #1 team, but if vince goes to tennessee, than I will be forced to root for them too! Or wherever he goes!

If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Funny, in the last two weeks we have seen excellent QB's Manning and Delhomme and a pro-bowl QB Plummer look like crud when consistantly pressured. Naaah, probably just a coincidence, never mind.

I put it earlier but IMHO people need to stop comparing Carr to every QB they see play in the playoffs. A guy having a bad game isn't a "see the best QBs have a bad game when pressured" thing and a guy having a great game isn't the "see what Dave could do in a system like that" thing. It is all independent and we will see over this next year what person comes out of this. He is himself and that is it.

 

[stevo3883]

im not getting into this for the most part, but...


Its pretty depressing to realize our #1 overall pick 5 years ago is still trying to reach the point where he can just 'manage a game' and not lose it for us.


he should be winning games for us... his salary is not that of a "dont lose the game QB", its that of a "owns a house in hawaii because he goes to the probowl so often"

 

[infantrycak]

I put it earlier but IMHO people need to stop comparing Carr to every QB they see play in the playoffs. A guy having a bad game isn't a "see the best QBs have a bad game when pressured" thing and a guy having a great game isn't the "see what Dave could do in a system like that" thing. It is all independent and we will see over this next year what person comes out of this. He is himself and that is it.

Well you can say that, but I'm not sure why you would. We could extend it out in the regular season and compare QB's with 4+ sacks per game to ones with 3 and under on a game by game split stat. Want to take bets on the results? Seriously--across the league look at the QB ratings even across a QB's entire career and compare 3 and under to 4+--do you really think there won't be a huge drop off in QB rating and win %. The playoffs concentrate this kind of argument because more people are watching the same games and the QB's are leaders/good to great QB's. Seems pretty relevant IMO. Plus, it isn't a comparison of Carr per se, it is an observation of performance expectations for any QB who is pressured vs. when they aren't pressured. It could be applied to any QB, of which Carr is one of the set.

 

[stevo3883]

If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.

"IF" they did? IF? guess what, they didn't. there is a reason we talk about Vince like that, he did IT, there were no "IFS" with his performance.


and saying "Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did" is easily the most ridiculous statement ive heard since someone said Vince is slower than Carr. its honestly not worth a response, and leads me to believe that you're most likely a spiteful aggie.

 

[infantrycak]

"IF" they did? IF? guess what, they didn't. there is a reason we talk about Vince like that, he did IT, there were no "IFS" with his performance.

I'm not into this whole argument y'all are having, but obviously the IF you are refering to didn't have anything to do with VY since he wasn't on the field so that play doesn't have anything to do with whether he has IT.

 

[Wolf]

I wonder what the message boards said about Kerry Collins after a couple of years with Carolina starting from scratch.

we might have to check if there is a trend with rookie QB's with expansion teams


track record of rookies with expansion teams hmmm
Collins (carolina)
Couch (Cleveland)
Carr (Texans)

Brunell I believe was a veteran ..

 

[stevo3883]

I'm not into this whole argument y'all are having, but obviously the IF you are refering to didn't have anything to do with VY since he wasn't on the field so that play doesn't have anything to do with whether he has IT.

you're misunderstanding.

My point was you can't go around using "if reggie did X, no one would talk about Vince!"

the reason we talk about Vince, is because Reggie had the chance and DIDNT do X. its not just the 4th & 2 play. Reggie had the ball in the open field with 10 seconds to go @ the 50 and decided to run out of bounds. Had he cutback and picked up around 15 more yards, USC has the clock stop and can run the field goal unit out.

on the flip side, when Vince had the chance, he did come through

 

[Carr Bombed]

"IF" they did? IF? guess what, they didn't. there is a reason we talk about Vince like that, he did IT, there were no "IFS" with his performance.


and saying "Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did" is easily the most ridiculous statement ive heard since someone said Vince is slower than Carr. its honestly not worth a response, and leads me to believe that you're most likely a spiteful aggie.

Ah no, actually I'm a longhorn fan and proudly support a horns tatto on my right shoulder. I'm just not blind. Vince had a complete team, somthing USC didn't. Bush Won the ND game and the Fresno game for them. Bush also gave USC multiple bennifets due to match up problems whenever they used him as a decoy or throw him on the outside as a wideout. Again I'm looking through NFL googles not Burnt orange College football googles. Beforee the rose bowl Vince was a top 15 pick at best, I just chose not to let one game against a crappy defense blind me. Vince isn't going to be able to rush for 146 yards against a NFL defense. Again I'm ROFLMAO at you trying to say I'm a aggie fan....hahaha. I hate the aggies.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Well you can say that, but I'm not sure why you would. We could extend it out in the regular season and compare QB's with 4+ sacks per game to ones with 3 and under on a game by game split stat. Want to take bets on the results? Seriously--across the league look at the QB ratings even across a QB's entire career and compare 3 and under to 4+--do you really think there won't be a huge drop off in QB rating and win %. The playoffs concentrate this kind of argument because more people are watching the same games and the QB's are leaders/good to great QB's. Seems pretty relevant IMO. Plus, it isn't a comparison of Carr per se, it is an observation of performance expectations for any QB who is pressured vs. when they aren't pressured. It could be applied to any QB, of which Carr is one of the set.

Listen, I am not dogging Carr when I say that. I see your argument. I'm just saying that I think right now people are going in circles in this debate trying to compare Carr to some guy that fits their mold of a QB. The reality of it is if it was so easy to give a guy a good situation and and have him thrive, then the Ryan Leaf's of the world who had physical tools would still be getting a chance. I don't see the comparisons. I don't see Carr as Jake Plummer choking and I don't see him as a Hassleback who just needed tweaking. I look at our teams situation independently. Carr may not really be capable and we may be paying a guy big bucks to be mediocre. He also might be a goldmine that was under coached. We can debate that all day. My problem is quatifying how a Roethlisberger has leadership skills and poise in a pocket and how Delhomme seems to also but had a bad day today. EVERY QB in the history of the league has had horrible games where they got pummeled. That doesn't make me think that MCCown of Arizona is going to be Roger Staubach because he gets no protection. Carr has gotten pummeled but people will judge him on the intangibles they see and that isn't going to change.

 

[infantrycak]

you're misunderstanding.

My point was you can't go around using "if reggie did X, no one would talk about Vince!"

the reason we talk about Vince, is because Reggie had the chance and DIDNT do X. its not just the 4th & 2 play. Reggie had the ball in the open field with 10 seconds to go @ the 50 and decided to run out of bounds. Had he cutback and picked up around 15 more yards, USC has the clock stop and can run the field goal unit out.

on the flip side, when Vince had the chance, he did come through

Sorry to interrupt then--carry on.

 

[stevo3883]

Ah no, actually I'm a longhorn fan and proudly support a horns tatto on my right shoulder. I'm just not blind. Vince had a complete team, somthing USC didn't. Bush Won the ND game and the Fresno game for them. Bush also gave USC multiple bennifets due to match up problems when ever they used him as a decoy or throw him on the outside as a wideout. Again I'm looking through NFL googles not Burnt orange College football googles. Beforee the rose bowl Vince was a top 15 pick at best, I just chose not to let one game against a crappy defense blind me. Vince isn't going to be able to rush for 146 yards against a NFL defense. Again I'm ROFLMAO at you trying to say I'm a aggie fan....hahaha. I hate the aggies.

well, your logic is hilarious.

UT's offense was Vince+ Thomas+ ALL UNDERCLASSMEN- none of them having more than 12 games experience(pittman,melton, and charles had no experience)

yet, USC's offense with Matt Leinart, Lendale White, Bush, Jarrett, Byrd, Smith was less complete than UTs? and you expect me to believe you are a longhorn?

I expect other longhorns to actually know something about football, and at least know about their team; you seem to be lost on both.


ah the ND game. where on 4th and 9 Matt LLeinart hit Dwayne Jarrett for a 60 yard pass and won the game shortly after with a qb sneak. but yet, it was somehow Reggie Bush that won this game? did you even watch it? Leinart won the game.

the infamous Fresno game. the game that won him the heisman. the game that people like you use as proof to reggie's skills (one game.... hypocrisy!) yet that game was nearly lost by a boneheaded fumble and then another boneheaded perfonal foul against Reggie at the end of the game.





and finally, Bush giving match up problems is more important than Vince being like 50+% of UT's offense?

im sorry, but there is no way you were a longhorn before the rose bowl, you're just way too uninformed.

 

[infantrycak]

Carr has gotten pummeled but people will judge him on the intangibles they see and that isn't going to change.

I understand what you are trying to get at (and by the way, I am not defending Carr, but trying to figure out how to judge QB's generally) but the questions become what are the intangibles and how do you judge them. It is apparent IMO that what many people view as intangibles are aided greatly by a good team (more W's) and good pass protection (direct correlation to QB rating IMO). As Vinny pointed out the other day and I agree--Manning isn't the best leader around (although he is certainly a great QB otherwise), but generally he benefits from a heck of a surrounding cast and very little pressure.

I think I know where the Texans are going at QB next season regardless of where I may want them to go and will still support them. It is going to be interesting to see how things turn out IMO.

 

[guichows6]

If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.

When I say "IT" I mean he has that auora, you look at the team and you know he is the man! You know he is going to get it done! He'll do what ever it takes for his team to win...he did it all season long when they got behind, and at the end did it to the #1 team in college. When he gets to the NFL, hell do the same. This guy will be everything Vick should have been at this point in his career...remember when everyone on this board wished Vick would have came in the NFL a year later so we could have him??? Well we have the opportunity to get a much more improved version that just so happens to be from here, and wants to play here. This guy would probably accept a lower paycheck just to play for his hometown and state, and will do whatever it takes (just like with the longhorns) to bring his city and team to respectability in the NFL ranks as soon as he gets the chance

 

[bakerooskie]

I understand what you are trying to get at (and by the way, I am not defending Carr, but trying to figure out how to judge QB's generally) but the questions become what are the intangibles and how do you judge them. It is apparent IMO that what many people view as intangibles are aided greatly by a good team (more W's) and good pass protection (direct correlation to QB rating IMO). As Vinny pointed out the other day and I agree--Manning isn't the best leader around (although he is certainly a great QB otherwise), but generally he benefits from a heck of a surrounding cast and very little pressure.

I think I know where the Texans are going at QB next season regardless of where I may want them to go and will still support them. It is going to be interesting to see how things turn out IMO.

AMEN...

 

[Carr Bombed]

you're misunderstanding.

My point was you can't go around using "if reggie did X, no one would talk about Vince!"

the reason we talk about Vince, is because Reggie had the chance and DIDNT do X. its not just the 4th & 2 play. Reggie had the ball in the open field with 10 seconds to go @ the 50 and decided to run out of bounds. Had he cutback and picked up around 15 more yards, USC has the clock stop and can run the field goal unit out.

on the flip side, when Vince had the chance, he did come through

Im not saying "if reggie did X". I'm simply saying you shouldn't overreact and flip your whole draft upside down off one game, which despite what this city says is exactly what they're doing. Go back and look at the pre rosebowl polls and the polls after the rosebowl.

 

[thunderkyss]

Funny, in the last two weeks we have seen excellent QB's Manning and Delhomme and a pro-bowl QB Plummer look like crud when consistantly pressured. Naaah, probably just a coincidence, never mind.

Funny in the last two weeks, they were being pressured by divisional caliber playoff defenses, and all the quarterbacks were criticized for their bad play. Not one escaped scrutiny...

Don't make me rag on Carr again... I like the kid, I really do. But I'm ready to move on. We've gone 2-14 this year. We're getting a new coach, a new offensive system, maybe a new defensive scheme. And Vince Young is being touted the best College football player of all time. He's coming off the best football game of his career, where he quarterbacked an underdog team to a victory, and won the game himself, in the last 6 minutes of regulation. And, he's coming out of college early, annddd we've got the #1 pick.

You've got to be fooling yourself, if you don't think everyone who voted Reggie for the Heisman isn't kicking themselves in the rear right now.

Do you know for a fact that Carr is going to have a probowl year next year?? Do you know for a fact that Carr is going to do all the things we think he can?? I believe.... that he won't. AFAIK, no one has.. no one has performed as dismally as David has, then turned his game around, untill he was traded. No one has played at Carr's level, for four years, then turned around and played at a probowl level, unless he got traded.

Carr didn't have a fair chance, I'll agree with you there. But neither has Harrington, Brooks, Plummer(in Arizona) Warren Moon, Quincy Carter, Anthony Wright, and I can go on and on, and on.


Let's talk about that St Louis game, where Carr did so well in the first half, but funked it up in the second half. Did we have a bunch of ringers playing the first half, in our players uniforms?? and our real team came back in the second??

Carr is good, not great.