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Save us Savage!!!!!!!

thunderkyss said:
I don't know about that. We're talking about a class most described as unremarkable. The guy doing the best out of that class right now was the 4th QB drafted & the one least likely to be drafted by the Texans.

I don't see the point of drafting a 1st/2nd round QB if you're not in love with the ones available.

Gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them.
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Out of curiosity, I wanted to look at how the potential OL the Texans could have drafted are doing since OL prospects were supposed to be as suspect as the QB class.

My preference as many know was to possibly trade back and build a stronger offensive trench to protect the QB and enable the running game to go right with the same authority as it can left. What good is receiver speed if the QB doesn't have enough time to let that speed do its thing. I would've taken 2 OL in a trade back and still got 2 of the immediate 3 I was projecting as possibilities.

1. Ryan Ramczyk- Wisconsin / Saints - Is making strides in camp and could very well lineup as their starting LT when the Pre Season begins. His pre-draft injuries must not be holding back his progress. **I wonder if Brown would have pulled his "hold-out" card if Ramczyk had been drafted and progressed as he has so far?**

2. Cam Robinson- Alabama / Jaguars- It appears Cam has been progressing at RT and could be penciled in as starter by end of Pre Season. It seems most analyst thought he would have to slide inside and handle OG but it seems that RT was the way to go. **With RT still being an issue for the Texans, it could have been nice watching Cam take the position in Camp.**

3. Ethan Pocic- LSU / Seahawks- He was favorite OL in the draft. He played C at LSU but had the versatility to play just about anywhere on the line. Well Carroll seems to be very pleased with Pocic since he started camp at C, moved to play some RG and has now moved to RT where it appears he's going to possibly take the starting job by the end of Pre Season. He's a smart player according to Carroll and they are expecting big contributions from Pocic. **Again, with questions still surrounding the Texans quest for a RT, here's another player elevating his game and could have been a big answer for the OL.**

Savage is having another solid camp...only this time it's with the #1 group. Weeden is having a solid camp. The RB's are looking very good and the receivers/TE's are prepared to inflict a lot of damage. All this good can finally happen provided the OL delivers...and that's still a bit of a question this year.

I don't hold this against Watson, who I think is having a good camp and is learning at a very good pace. He very well could be the Texans QB of the future but in my mind, this offense needed answers on the OL before anything else and the 3 guys mentioned above could have provided a lot of answers for 2017. 2018 will provide a very good and deep QB Class which should be more than capable of getting the Texans an answer to the QB position should the need arise...not to mention the team may have had their full compliment of picks to make a QB happen in the draft.
 
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OptimisticTexan said:
Out of curiosity, I wanted to look at how the potential OL the Texans could have desalted are doing since OL prospects were supposed to be as suspect as the QB class.

My preference as many know was to possibly trade back and build a stronger offensive trench to protect the QB and enable the running game to right with the same authority as it could left. What good is receiver speed if the QB doesn't have enough time to let that speed do its thing. I would've taken 2 OL in a trade back and still got 2 of the immediate 3.

1. Ryan Ramczyk- Wisconsin / - Is making strides in camp and could very well lineup as their starting LT when the Pre Season begins. His pre-draft injuries must not be holding back his progress. **I wonder if Brown would have pulled his "hold-out" card if Ramczyk had been drafted and progressed as he has so far?**

2. Cam Robinson- Alabama / Jaguars- It appears Cam has been progressing at RT and could be penciled in as starter by end of Pre Season. It seems most analyst thought he would have to slide inside and handle OG but it seems that RT was the way to go. **With RT still being an issue for the Texans, it could have been nice watching Cam take the position in Camp.**

3. Ethan Pocic- LSU / Seahawks- He was favorite OL in the draft. He played C at LSU but had the versatility to play just about anywhere on the line. Well Carroll seems to be very pleased with Pocic since he started camp at C, moved to play some RG and has now moved to RT where it appears he's going to possibly take the starting job by the end of Pre Season. He's a smart player according to Carroll and they are expecting big contributions from Pocic. **Again, with questions still surrounding the Texans quest for a RT, here's another player elevating his game and could have been a big answer for the OL.**

Savage is having another solid camp...only this time it's with the #1 group. Weeden is having a solid camp. The RB's are looking very good and the receivers/TE's are prepared to inflict a lot of damage. All this good can finally happen provided the OL delivers...and that's still a bit of a question this year.

I don't hold this against Watson, who I think is having a good camp and is learning at a very good pace. He very well could be the Texans QB of the future but in my mind, this offense needed answers on the OL before anything else and the 3 guys mentioned above could have provided a lot of answers for 2017. 2018 will provide a very good and deep QB Class which should be more than capable of providing an answer to the QB position should the need arise...not to mention the team may have their full compliment of picks to make a QB happen in the draft.
Click to expand...
Excellent summation.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Out of curiosity, I wanted to look at how the potential OL the Texans could have desalted are doing since OL prospects were supposed to be as suspect as the QB class.

My preference as many know was to possibly trade back and build a stronger offensive trench to protect the QB and enable the running game to right with the same authority as it could left. What good is receiver speed if the QB doesn't have enough time to let that speed do its thing. I would've taken 2 OL in a trade back and still got 2 of the immediate 3.

1. Ryan Ramczyk- Wisconsin / - Is making strides in camp and could very well lineup as their starting LT when the Pre Season begins. His pre-draft injuries must not be holding back his progress. **I wonder if Brown would have pulled his "hold-out" card if Ramczyk had been drafted and progressed as he has so far?**

2. Cam Robinson- Alabama / Jaguars- It appears Cam has been progressing at RT and could be penciled in as starter by end of Pre Season. It seems most analyst thought he would have to slide inside and handle OG but it seems that RT was the way to go. **With RT still being an issue for the Texans, it could have been nice watching Cam take the position in Camp.**

3. Ethan Pocic- LSU / Seahawks- He was favorite OL in the draft. He played C at LSU but had the versatility to play just about anywhere on the line. Well Carroll seems to be very pleased with Pocic since he started camp at C, moved to play some RG and has now moved to RT where it appears he's going to possibly take the starting job by the end of Pre Season. He's a smart player according to Carroll and they are expecting big contributions from Pocic. **Again, with questions still surrounding the Texans quest for a RT, here's another player elevating his game and could have been a big answer for the OL.**

Savage is having another solid camp...only this time it's with the #1 group. Weeden is having a solid camp. The RB's are looking very good and the receivers/TE's are prepared to inflict a lot of damage. All this good can finally happen provided the OL delivers...and that's still a bit of a question this year.

I don't hold this against Watson, who I think is having a good camp and is learning at a very good pace. He very well could be the Texans QB of the future but in my mind, this offense needed answers on the OL before anything else and the 3 guys mentioned above could have provided a lot of answers for 2017. 2018 will provide a very good and deep QB Class which should be more than capable of providing an answer to the QB position should the need arise...not to mention the team may have their full compliment of picks to make a QB happen in the draft.
Click to expand...

Why do fans always present draft trade sceneries like it's a given, that was ever even a option, or that would ever be on the table?.. I don't get it.

This offensive line group as a whole sucked in this last draft. Where's all the future locks?.. there wasn't a no brainer. BTW the Jags have to get Cam ready to play LT...NOT RT with the retirement of Albert. So their offensive line is already going to be in a pinch.. their fans aren't happy. Go read the boards.

Hell you might as well list our tackle who has also been getting good reviews if you're going to list all the players that you did above. It simply was a crappy tackle draft and we needed a quarterback, which according by many could be the best of his class. So why reach? QB was a much MUCH bigger need for this team than a tackle.

As far as the Brown hold out, he'll be back.. I also highly doubt he's just holding out for money. He's working, vets hold out to stay out of camp too. He'll be back.

Point is.. in a craptastic lineman draft we grabbed a QB which we direlely needed for how many years now? So why force the issue or just assume we could've traded back, much less be able to get two quality tackles out of this weak draft. RT is not hard to replace. They'll address it (and left tackle, probably already got the player to fill one of those positions already)..QB is much MUCH harder to fill.

This was NOT the draft to try to reload the offensive line with. Gee how many 1st rounders was there?
 
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By now most should realize that, besides injury reporting, at this time of year, nothing is negative, everything marketing hype and everyone is a superstar.

With the 2018 Draft projected to be "loaded" with top QB and OL talent, this might not have been the best Draft to have drafted either OT or QB. It appears that both 1st round picks at those positions were "overdrafted." I don't see Ramczyk holding up at all for much of the regular season. The others have not proven to have what is required to be decent pass protectors, especially for playing LTin the NFL (including Cam). Pocic was touted as a versatile OLineman......being able to play LT, RT, LG, RG, and center. At 6'6", center, and even OG in the NFL, would be an unlikely option, as he already expectedly showed balance problems in college. He could have probably helped us at RT, but he would have still been a rookie. But to me, the latter in the 2nd round and picking another 1st round player other than QB or trading the pick to get back a 2018 pick, and not losing the draft picks for Watson........and for the idiotic Osweiler pick trade.
 
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DocBar said:
What do the Texans do if Savage has a 4,000+ yd, 2:1 TD ratio and 64% completions?
Click to expand...
Agree with Doc. Keep him as the 2018 starter and turn one of our QBs into multiple picks in the near future

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
badboy said:
How was giving up #25 and about same in 2018 to move up to #12 overpaying? If you think you have a possible franchise QB, you go get him.
Click to expand...

Well for one thing you never know. Even the most sure prospects can bust. And Watson wasn't a sure thing, otherwise he would have gone top 5.

So it's always a risk to trade up because you are trading away two for one. Yes you move up increasing your odds a bit, but in the long run you want to have more picks because you can never know which ones will work out.

And also because rookies are salary cap friendly and under team control. It keeps you from having to go out into the risky and pricey free agent market.

I read somewhere that the best franchises tend to not trade up or even trade down and hoard assets

And we've also learned from this front office that they really don't know. When they say they are really sure about a QB this time, I have to be skeptical.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Out of curiosity, I wanted to look at how the potential OL the Texans could have drafted are doing since OL prospects were supposed to be as suspect as the QB class.

My preference as many know was to possibly trade back and build a stronger offensive trench to protect the QB and enable the running game to go right with the same authority as it can left. What good is receiver speed if the QB doesn't have enough time to let that speed do its thing. I would've taken 2 OL in a trade back and still got 2 of the immediate 3.

1. Ryan Ramczyk- Wisconsin / Saints - Is making strides in camp and could very well lineup as their starting LT when the Pre Season begins. His pre-draft injuries must not be holding back his progress. **I wonder if Brown would have pulled his "hold-out" card if Ramczyk had been drafted and progressed as he has so far?**

2. Cam Robinson- Alabama / Jaguars- It appears Cam has been progressing at RT and could be penciled in as starter by end of Pre Season. It seems most analyst thought he would have to slide inside and handle OG but it seems that RT was the way to go. **With RT still being an issue for the Texans, it could have been nice watching Cam take the position in Camp.**

3. Ethan Pocic- LSU / Seahawks- He was favorite OL in the draft. He played C at LSU but had the versatility to play just about anywhere on the line. Well Carroll seems to be very pleased with Pocic since he started camp at C, moved to play some RG and has now moved to RT where it appears he's going to possibly take the starting job by the end of Pre Season. He's a smart player according to Carroll and they are expecting big contributions from Pocic. **Again, with questions still surrounding the Texans quest for a RT, here's another player elevating his game and could have been a big answer for the OL.**

Savage is having another solid camp...only this time it's with the #1 group. Weeden is having a solid camp. The RB's are looking very good and the receivers/TE's are prepared to inflict a lot of damage. All this good can finally happen provided the OL delivers...and that's still a bit of a question this year.

I don't hold this against Watson, who I think is having a good camp and is learning at a very good pace. He very well could be the Texans QB of the future but in my mind, this offense needed answers on the OL before anything else and the 3 guys mentioned above could have provided a lot of answers for 2017. 2018 will provide a very good and deep QB Class which should be more than capable of providing an answer to the QB position should the need arise...not to mention the team may have their full compliment of picks to make a QB happen in the draft.
Click to expand...

Some people start at the tail, some the scalp. I've seen some start at the gut & work their way out. Some folks boil them first, some... long story short, there are a million ways, so I'm told, to skin a cat.

However, finding a franchise QB is like hunting Unicorns. While some may think Tom Savage is good enough for this team to win a Super Bowl, others think there will a QB available to us in 2018 (had we not traded our first two picks) who can win a Super Bowl... the Texans don't believe either

They saw a QB in this draft they believe can win a Super Bowl & they did what they did to get him.

I'd have preferred they traded the farm to get Mariota, some think they should have traded the future for Goff, or Wentz (though they'd criticize them for doing so)... but they didn't.

My hope is they believe Watson can win a Super Bowl. So far their actions are consistent with a "team" that believe they traded for a franchise QB.

I could be wrong, but judging by their actions the Broncos & Rams aren't so sure about their decisions.
 
TheKDog said:
Well for one thing you never know. Even the most sure prospects can bust. And Watson wasn't a sure thing, otherwise he would have gone top 5.
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I'd have drafted Aj McCarron #1 overall in 2014. Doesn't make him any more a sure thing than Blake Bortles.

TheKDog said:
I read somewhere that the best franchises tend to not trade up or even trade down and hoard assets
Click to expand...
You probably read that on this board from one of our armchair GMs.

The Steelers traded up for Roethlisberger & won three Super Bowls. They are one of the handful of teams the Texans should model.

The Ravens traded up to get Flacco (in fact they traded with us). Some point to the Ravens as an organization we should model.

TheKDog said:
And we've also learned from this front office that they really don't know. When they say they are really sure about a QB this time, I have to be skeptical.
Click to expand...

Understood. I feel the same way. I like that the Texans traded up to get a QB. I'm skeptical that they traded up for Watson.

We'll see.
 
Carr Bombed said:
HAPPYGM.jpg


.
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One of the NFL reporters did tweet that the room didn't seem happy, but I don't think the unhappiness was from O'Brien

O'Brien had an interview where he said Watson was the consensus #1 for them, that Rick never gets than anyone they don't want, and that they have never gone to McNair with a disagreement.

Etc, it's all been posted before. Maybe it's coachspeak but to me it fits obriens MO. Obrien loves the big dramatic move. He wants to prove he's a genius after all
 
thunderkyss said:
I'd have drafted Aj McCarron #1 overall in 2014. Doesn't make him any more a sure thing than Blake Bortles.


You probably read that on this board from one of our armchair GMs.

The Steelers traded up for Roethlisberger & won three Super Bowls. They are one of the handful of teams the Texans should model.

The Ravens traded up to get Flacco (in fact they traded with us). Some point to the Ravens as an organization we should model.



Understood. I feel the same way. I like that the Texans traded up to get a QB. I'm skeptical that they traded up for Watson.

We'll see.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say never trade up. But do it rarely and smartly.

Here is the article on trading up

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...ng-draft-picks-spending-in-free-agency-losing

  • The 3 most successful NFL teams over the last 3 seasons are the Seahawks, Patriots and Broncos. Each team has traded down at least twice as often as they traded up in the past 5 drafts.
  • Four of the 5 least successful NFL teams over the last 3 seasons are the Jaguars, Buccaneers, Titans and Browns. Combined, they traded up 28 times and down only 6 times over the last 5 drafts! That’s 6 trades up to 1 down on average, for 5 consecutive years.
It was written in 2015. It seems like the browns and Titans have stopped trading up
 
DocBar said:
What do the Texans do if Savage has a 4,000+ yd, 2:1 TD ratio and 64% completions?
Click to expand...
The Texans have never passed for 4000 yards in any season under Bill O'Brien. So that would tell me the team is playing from behind quite a bit.

I think the real question would be, what if the Texans win with Savage at QB? Do they franchise him? Re-sign him? Tag and trade him? I guess that would depend on how much credit the organization gives Savage for the success.
 
thunderkyss said:
Some people start at the tail, some the scalp. I've seen some start at the gut & work their way out. Some folks boil them first, some... long story short, there are a million ways, so I'm told, to skin a cat.

However, finding a franchise QB is like hunting Unicorns. While some may think Tom Savage is good enough for this team to win a Super Bowl, others think there will a QB available to us in 2018 (had we not traded our first two picks) who can win a Super Bowl... the Texans don't believe either

They saw a QB in this draft they believe can win a Super Bowl & they did what they did to get him.

I'd have preferred they traded the farm to get Mariota, some think they should have traded the future for Goff, or Wentz (though they'd criticize them for doing so)... but they didn't.

My hope is they believe Watson can win a Super Bowl. So far their actions are consistent with a "team" that believe they traded for a franchise QB.

I could be wrong, but judging by their actions the Broncos & Rams aren't so sure about their decisions.
Click to expand...


Thunderkyss what's strange to me is, " what if we did acquire Tony Rome".

1. Savage wouldn't be the starter unless Romo gets injured again.

2. We probably draft an offensive linemen with that 1st round pick.

3. The conversation around these parts would be totally different in many ways
 
Lucky said:
The Texans have never passed for 4000 yards in any season under Bill O'Brien. So that would tell me the team is playing from behind quite a bit.

I think the real question would be, what if the Texans win with Savage at QB? Do they franchise him? Re-sign him? Tag and trade him? I guess that would depend on how much credit the organization gives Savage for the success.
Click to expand...

Right. Look at Baltimore. Won a SB with Banks and Dilfer. Neither was on the team the next year.
 
Lucky said:
The Texans have never passed for 4000 yards in any season under Bill O'Brien. So that would tell me the team is playing from behind quite a bit.

I think the real question would be, what if the Texans win with Savage at QB? Do they franchise him? Re-sign him? Tag and trade him? I guess that would depend on how much credit the organization gives Savage for the success.
Click to expand...
I would think a lack of 4,000 yd seasons under OB would indicate either sitting on a lead or having poor QB play much more so than being behind, where teams tend to pass far more often than rush the ball. I think we both know the answer to that one.
My biggest concern is being able to franchise a QB two years in a row and take care of the young core of the Texans.
 
Lucky said:
The Texans have never passed for 4000 yards in any season under Bill O'Brien. So that would tell me the team is playing from behind quite a bit.

I think the real question would be, what if the Texans win with Savage at QB? Do they franchise him? Re-sign him? Tag and trade him? I guess that would depend on how much credit the organization gives Savage for the success.
Click to expand...
Win what with Savage? They won with Fitz, Hoyer and Os, if you're talking about winning the division and a playoff game. That's why I put reasonable to reach stats instead of Ws. If Savage can put those kind of stats up in the regular season, it just about guarantees double digit wins and likely more than one and done in the playoffs. That's how I'm looking at it.
 
TheKDog said:
I wouldn't say never trade up. But do it rarely and smartly.

Here is the article on trading up

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...ng-draft-picks-spending-in-free-agency-losing

  • The 3 most successful NFL teams over the last 3 seasons are the Seahawks, Patriots and Broncos. Each team has traded down at least twice as often as they traded up in the past 5 drafts.
  • Four of the 5 least successful NFL teams over the last 3 seasons are the Jaguars, Buccaneers, Titans and Browns. Combined, they traded up 28 times and down only 6 times over the last 5 drafts! That’s 6 trades up to 1 down on average, for 5 consecutive years.
It was written in 2015. It seems like the browns and Titans have stopped trading up
Click to expand...

I think each trade should be evaluated on it's own merit.

Did the Texans make this trade specifically for DeShaun Watson or was it in hopes of getting another player who was selected ahead of the pick?

I think there's enough evidence to suggest Pat Mahomes was the initial target. Or that this deal was in place at the time of the Osweiler trade with no particular target in mind. With that in mind, I'm watching the Texans' actions today to shed light on the decision made in April. So far, everything is consistent with Watson being their primary target.​

Is DeShaun Watson a top 12 pick?

In my Old School QB grading, yes. He checks all the boxes, size, pedigree, prolific, tenure, & he adds a plus athleticism. He may not have been the QB I'd have picked (& from comments on this board, not the one many of us would have picked) he's still a damn fine prospect.
​
Could they have gotten him later?

I think so. But I understand the Texans believing he would be gone. There was at least one team most felt would take a QB between 12 & 25. We already saw two trades to get QBs. & it's arguable that Watson was a better prospect than the two already taken, & if the Texans believed him to be their guy, it's more understandable they wouldn't take the risk.​

So while I agree with you, dynasties aren't built trading away draft picks, I believe this one was warranted. However, it's all predicated on how committed they are to developing Watson. IMO bringing in a successful OC, with a solid track record (McCoy) would have been the best thing for us (even better than drafting a guy who might be able to start at RT). Bill O'Brien taking over the offense is a comparable move.
 
TheKDog said:
Well for one thing you never know. Even the most sure prospects can bust. And Watson wasn't a sure thing, otherwise he would have gone top 5.

So it's always a risk to trade up because you are trading away two for one. Yes you move up increasing your odds a bit, but in the long run you want to have more picks because you can never know which ones will work out.

And also because rookies are salary cap friendly and under team control. It keeps you from having to go out into the risky and pricey free agent market.

I read somewhere that the best franchises tend to not trade up or even trade down and hoard assets

And we've also learned from this front office that they really don't know. When they say they are really sure about a QB this time, I have to be skeptical.
Click to expand...
You never know on anything. A 7th round pick becomes your starting right tackle for years. This pick #12 was about getting a possible franchise quarterback as I said for very reasonable cost. Watson doesn't have to be much more than adequate to be successful. The reasonable thought is he will be much more than that. In most cases I agree with your second sentence but not when talking franchise players at the most important position in NFL plus having the vacuum at QB we have had. A # 12 franchise QB selection allows you not to go after an Osweiler that cost you $25 million in one year not including the second given to Cleveland.

You have to be a "best" team before you 'tend not to trade up or down'. In fact, if Texans were a best team, I'd be more likely to trade up for a special player even if not needed immediately.
 
thunderkyss said:
I think each trade should be evaluated on it's own merit.

Did the Texans make this trade specifically for DeShaun Watson or was it in hopes of getting another player who was selected ahead of the pick?

I think there's enough evidence to suggest Pat Mahomes was the initial target. Or that this deal was in place at the time of the Osweiler trade with no particular target in mind. With that in mind, I'm watching the Texans' actions today to shed light on the decision made in April. So far, everything is consistent with Watson being their primary target.​

Is DeShaun Watson a top 12 pick?

In my Old School QB grading, yes. He checks all the boxes, size, pedigree, prolific, tenure, & he adds a plus athleticism. He may not have been the QB I'd have picked (& from comments on this board, not the one many of us would have picked) he's still a damn fine prospect.
​
Could they have gotten him later?

I think so. But I understand the Texans believing he would be gone. There was at least one team most felt would take a QB between 12 & 25. We already saw two trades to get QBs. & it's arguable that Watson was a better prospect than the two already taken, & if the Texans believed him to be their guy, it's more understandable they wouldn't take the risk.​

So while I agree with you, dynasties aren't built trading away draft picks, I believe this one was warranted. However, it's all predicated on how committed they are to developing Watson. IMO bringing in a successful OC, with a solid track record (McCoy) would have been the best thing for us (even better than drafting a guy who might be able to start at RT). Bill O'Brien taking over the offense is a comparable move.
Click to expand...
I think the biggest concern a lot of us have is who is doing the talent evaluation. The Texans don't have a great record in that area. Maybe Rick's string of good luck in the 1st keeps going and Watson becomes a top 10 or top 5 QB. Maybe Watson can't get past being fooled by disguised coverages and keeps on being an INT machine.
 
DocBar said:
Win what with Savage? They won with Fitz, Hoyer and Os, if you're talking about winning the division and a playoff game. That's why I put reasonable to reach stats instead of Ws. If Savage can put those kind of stats up in the regular season, it just about guarantees double digit wins and likely more than one and done in the playoffs. That's how I'm looking at it.
Click to expand...

Hopefully the goal isn't double digit wins. I mean if we need double digit wins to get where we need to be, sure.

But the goal should be getting past the divisional round, & on to a Super Bowl victory.

I don't care what Tom Savage's stat line is. Did he help the Texans get past the divisional round or not. Did he make plays when it mattered?

Look at Tom Brady's 2nd season. Stats aren't at all impressive. But when they needed a play, he came through... even if it was just getting the team in field goal range in the final minutes of a game.
 
DocBar said:
I think the biggest concern a lot of us have is who is doing the talent evaluation. The Texans don't have a great record in that area. Maybe Rick's string of good luck in the 1st keeps going and Watson becomes a top 10 or top 5 QB. Maybe Watson can't get past being fooled by disguised coverages and keeps on being an INT machine.
Click to expand...

With competent coaching Rick Smith had fielded top five offenses & defenses.
 
DocBar said:
I would think a lack of 4,000 yd seasons under OB would indicate either sitting on a lead or having poor QB play much more so than being behind, where teams tend to pass far more often than rush the ball.
Click to expand...
I think it has more to do with trust. O'Brien hasn't brought out a lot of game plans where he is spraying the ball all over the field. I don't see that changing this season no matter if it is Savage or Watson behind center. And why should he? These guys have accomplished less than any QBs O'Brien has entered the season with.

DocBar said:
Win what with Savage? They won with Fitz, Hoyer and Os, if you're talking about winning the division and a playoff game. That's why I put reasonable to reach stats instead of Ws. If Savage can put those kind of stats up in the regular season, it just about guarantees double digit wins and likely more than one and done in the playoffs. That's how I'm looking at it.
Click to expand...
You can look at it any way you want, I guess. I'm not going down the rabbit hole of specific numbers. I'm saying if O'Brien wins enough for McNair to extend his contract, Savage's contribution will have to be judged. If O'Brien doesn't win enough to get an extension, there will be a new sheriff in town. And who knows what he will think of Savage. It all boils down to winning and how McNair will define it.
 
Lucky said:
The Texans have never passed for 4000 yards in any season under Bill O'Brien. So that would tell me the team is playing from behind quite a bit.

I think the real question would be, what if the Texans win with Savage at QB? Do they franchise him? Re-sign him? Tag and trade him? I guess that would depend on how much credit the organization gives Savage for the success.
Click to expand...

If he is winning games for us you at Matt Schaub levels you should franchise him. The QB position it vital to the success of the franchise and even if you have a promising rookie waiting, that is all he is plus he is unproven in games more likely in this scenario.

Baltimore/Tampa is the exception to the rule. And Baltimore went through several years of QB purgatory after the SB. The last twenty years since Baltimore won the SB the game has changed for to protect the QB position and make it more of a passing game. It made it more challenging for defenses.

So i wouldn't gamble on the QB position if we win because of Savage.
 
TheKDog said:
One of the NFL reporters did tweet that the room didn't seem happy, but I don't think the unhappiness was from O'Brien

O'Brien had an interview where he said Watson was the consensus #1 for them, that Rick never gets than anyone they don't want, and that they have never gone to McNair with a disagreement.

Etc, it's all been posted before. Maybe it's coachspeak but to me it fits obriens MO. Obrien loves the big dramatic move. He wants to prove he's a genius after all
Click to expand...

Doesn't that moniker fit someone else in the Texans organization to a "T"?
 
TheKDog said:
One of the NFL reporters did tweet that the room didn't seem happy, but I don't think the unhappiness was from O'Brien

O'Brien had an interview where he said Watson was the consensus #1 for them, that Rick never gets than anyone they don't want, and that they have never gone to McNair with a disagreement.

Etc, it's all been posted before. Maybe it's coachspeak but to me it fits obriens MO. Obrien loves the big dramatic move. He wants to prove he's a genius after all
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Be careful believing everything you read or hear from reporters. They want you to click on an article and call into their station. They stir the pot sometimes.
 
Lucky said:
I think it has more to do with trust. O'Brien hasn't brought out a lot of game plans where he is spraying the ball all over the field. I don't see that changing this season no matter if it is Savage or Watson behind center. And why should he? These guys have accomplished less than any QBs O'Brien has entered the season with.
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What I expected to see out of a multiple offensive game plan was to see definite targeted weaknesses. If a team is week against the run to the right, we'd pound the rock to the right. If they've got three top CBs, I want to test their 4th corner, I want to see their thumpers covering Miller or Ervin in space.

Instead what we've seen is to pound it up the middle until we get it right.
 
thunderkyss said:
What I expected to see out of a multiple offensive game plan was to see definite targeted weaknesses. If a team is week against the run to the right, we'd pound the rock to the right. If they've got three top CBs, I want to test their 4th corner, I want to see their thumpers covering Miller or Ervin in space.

Instead what we've seen is to pound it up the middle until we get it right.
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It is actually that simple. Everyone remember after we got Miller and the "speed guys" in the draft? We were saying what can defenses do with these guys? Then we allowed Miller to get beat up running him continuously between the Ts. I'm still confused about the 2016 game plan.
 
Anyone else find it interesting that DHOP, in a contract year, is putting his faith in Savage?http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...es-tom-savage-as-texans-starting-quarterback/

“If anybody should be a judge of quarterbacks, I’ve played with the most quarterbacks in NFL history throughout my first four years,” DeAndre Hopkins said after practice Friday. “So I put the stamp on Savage, and I think that’s all that needs to be said about that.”
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“I’ve played with at least 10 quarterbacks,” Hopkins said. “So because of what [Savage] does well and what he can do for this team, I know he can help us win what we want to win. He does everything well. He’s a student of the game, from just being on the bench, watching and learning from other people’s mistakes, seeing what they’ve done wrong. He can put the ball in any place. He has a strong arm. He has a knowledge of this offense. He’s been in this offense his whole career.”
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CloakNNNdagger said:
Just that with his extensive exposure/experience, he believes that he recognizes talent and solid execution........what it takes to make a team succeed at a high level.
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He needs to worry about getting open more. He's the number one reciever drawing all types of coverages. Will see physical corners jam the mess out him like they did last season. He was really bothered by that.

And certain things should be kept in house.
 
DocBar said:
Really? Watson would be the easy, popular choice. Going out on a limb for a 4th round pick shows cahones and faith.
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After you get in the league nobody cares what round you were drafted in. Savage and DeAndre obviously have chemistry and I'm sure Savage at this point runs the offense more efficiently than a wet behind the ears rookie can so why wouldn't DeAndre put his faith in him for this season..doesnt mean DeAndre doesn't like Watson, just means DeAndre doesn't think he's ready.
 
DocBar said:
Really? Watson would be the easy, popular choice. Going out on a limb for a 4th round pick shows cahones and faith.
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Let's not over analyze this. Hopkins is Savage's safety woobie. He throws to him as a default. Any WR likes that. Savage throws to Hopkins more than Schaub threw to AJ. And neither of the former is as good.

Hopkins likes Savage because he feeds him.
 
thunderkyss said:
With competent coaching Rick Smith had fielded top five offenses & defenses.
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In the long run, the records is what you are.
The Texans under Rick Smith's tenure so far is minus 2 in the Win column in a division that is minus 20.

Decidedly mediocre at best.
Below average is more like it.
 
76Texan said:
In the long run, the records is what you are.
The Texans under Rick Smith's tenure so far is minus 2 in the Win column in a division that is minus 20.

Decidedly mediocre at best.
Below average is more like it.
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Eh... he's plus 3 over the last three years, showing improvement over time. Considering the failed expansion team he inherited mediocre is a success.

Just imagine if he could hire his own coach.
 
thunderkyss said:
Eh... he's plus 3 over the last three years, showing improvement over time. Considering the failed expansion team he inherited mediocre is a success.

Just imagine if he could hire his own coach.
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Nah, considering he got 2 no. 1 overall; his draft and acquisition records are as suggested: mediocre at best.
He didn't get hired until June, and did not inherited a failed team.
By the time of his arrival, the Texans already got players such as Lundy, AJ, OD, Salaam (stop gap, but valuable) Pitts, Flanagan, Weary ( stop gap) on offense and similar talents on defense with more upside (as they are younger). A solid foundation.

As a personnel man while working with the Broncos while Kubiak was the OC, I'm pretty sure he would have more inputs on coaches than Kubiak when they arrived here.
Whoever Kubiak knew, Smith likely knew as well.
It should be in the job description of a GM to have dossiers on coaches around the league and in the college rank to recommend to the HC and the owner. O' Brien was too green; besides his ring of acquaintances, he wouldn't know as much.

The pluses over the last 3 years were a direct result of a weak division; certainly you know that. Watt may have missed 13 games, but Andrew Luck also missed 10 while playing injured in many others (thus rendering the Colts incompetence.)
The Titans were coming off 2 losing season (before 2014) and proceeded to tank the next 2.
As for the Jags, they have been one of the worst teams in the league for quite awhile now.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Out of curiosity, I wanted to look at how the potential OL the Texans could have drafted are doing since OL prospects were supposed to be as suspect as the QB class.

My preference as many know was to possibly trade back and build a stronger offensive trench to protect the QB and enable the running game to go right with the same authority as it can left. What good is receiver speed if the QB doesn't have enough time to let that speed do its thing. I would've taken 2 OL in a trade back and still got 2 of the immediate 3 I was projecting as possibilities.

1. Ryan Ramczyk- Wisconsin / Saints - Is making strides in camp and could very well lineup as their starting LT when the Pre Season begins. His pre-draft injuries must not be holding back his progress. **I wonder if Brown would have pulled his "hold-out" card if Ramczyk had been drafted and progressed as he has so far?**

2. Cam Robinson- Alabama / Jaguars- It appears Cam has been progressing at RT and could be penciled in as starter by end of Pre Season. It seems most analyst thought he would have to slide inside and handle OG but it seems that RT was the way to go. **With RT still being an issue for the Texans, it could have been nice watching Cam take the position in Camp.**

3. Ethan Pocic- LSU / Seahawks- He was favorite OL in the draft. He played C at LSU but had the versatility to play just about anywhere on the line. Well Carroll seems to be very pleased with Pocic since he started camp at C, moved to play some RG and has now moved to RT where it appears he's going to possibly take the starting job by the end of Pre Season. He's a smart player according to Carroll and they are expecting big contributions from Pocic. **Again, with questions still surrounding the Texans quest for a RT, here's another player elevating his game and could have been a big answer for the OL.**

Savage is having another solid camp...only this time it's with the #1 group. Weeden is having a solid camp. The RB's are looking very good and the receivers/TE's are prepared to inflict a lot of damage. All this good can finally happen provided the OL delivers...and that's still a bit of a question this year.

I don't hold this against Watson, who I think is having a good camp and is learning at a very good pace. He very well could be the Texans QB of the future but in my mind, this offense needed answers on the OL before anything else and the 3 guys mentioned above could have provided a lot of answers for 2017. 2018 will provide a very good and deep QB Class which should be more than capable of getting the Texans an answer to the QB position should the need arise...not to mention the team may have had their full compliment of picks to make a QB happen in the draft.
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There were 2 OL taken in the 1st round of this past draft. That's the fewest since 1965. And the 1st to come off the board was at 20, the latest since Jamaal Brown at 13 in 2005. That ought to tell you everything you need to know about this year's OL class.

Not saying that any of those OL taken can't be good or even great players, but the risk was just too high in this low rated class. And when you're the Texans and have needs just as big as OL elsewhere, the options at other positions may have been the less risky option, even with QB being the most risky position.

And analyzing these guys on what they're doing in training camp is just silly to me. Just listening and reading about the analysis of Texans camp, they appear to be unbeatable. So take those reports for what they're worth.
 
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infantrycak said:
Let's not over analyze this. Hopkins is Savage's safety woobie. He throws to him as a default. Any WR likes that. Savage throws to Hopkins more than Schaub threw to AJ. And neither of the former is as good.

Hopkins likes Savage because he feeds him.
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Schaub had Owen Daniels too. Until we have a TE or a true #2 WR it is probably going to lopsided.

Savage and Hopkins worked out together over the summer. Reports out of training camp is Savage is finding Hopkins. That is good.

Hopkins is our number one receiver. We want our QB using him as a security blanket. He is going to be paid for being a playmaker and we need to use him.

And remember in the Jaguars game last year Savage threw to Griffin so much he had a career high game with 85 receiving yards.

So no reason to be too concerned.

And Hopkins now doesn't have to work with balls sailing over his head or have to make diving catches. He finally has a QB that can throw and hit him easily so yeah i would be excited if i were him too. The game got so much easier for him.
 
Carr Bombed said:
Why do fans always present draft trade sceneries like it's a given, that was ever even a option, or that would ever be on the table?.. I don't get it.

This offensive line group as a whole sucked in this last draft. Where's all the future locks?.. there wasn't a no brainer. BTW the Jags have to get Cam ready to play LT...NOT RT with the retirement of Albert. So their offensive line is already going to be in a pinch.. their fans aren't happy. Go read the boards.

Hell you might as well list our tackle who has also been getting good reviews if you're going to list all the players that you did above. It simply was a crappy tackle draft and we needed a quarterback, which according by many could be the best of his class. So why reach? QB was a much MUCH bigger need for this team than a tackle.

As far as the Brown hold out, he'll be back.. I also highly doubt he's just holding out for money. He's working, vets hold out to stay out of camp too. He'll be back.

Point is.. in a craptastic lineman draft we grabbed a QB which we direlely needed for how many years now? So why force the issue or just assume we could've traded back, much less be able to get two quality tackles out of this weak draft. RT is not hard to replace. They'll address it (and left tackle, probably already got the player to fill one of those positions already)..QB is much MUCH harder to fill.

This was NOT the draft to try to reload the offensive line with. Gee how many 1st rounders was there?
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The same exact thing was said about the QB Class as well. All the analyst stated this QB group was being over-hyped and could go far sooner than they would go in a more talented class.

Now, don't get me wrong in regards to Watson, I liked him as a project who had things to correct in his game but I didn't like what the Texans gave up to draft him. In all honesty, I think he would have fallen right into the Texans laps at 25.

In a draft that featured long-shots at QB and OL, which happened to be the Texans 2 biggest needs...I would've traded back (and yes, there was probably a taker if the Texans were serious) and rolled the dice on a couple of OT's. The biggest difference, the Texans wouldn't have needed to trade up for their long-shot nor would they have had to give up a valuable 2018 pick in the process.

Worth mentioning, with RS supposedly knowing his HC...he drafted a QB in RD1 with the knowledge that O'Brien doesn't usually prefer to start a rookie QB, especially when his job may be on the line this season. So take Cam Robinson and Ethan Pocic since both represent possible Day 1 starters. Watson's impact for 2017 solely rest on what Savage does with his first opportunity. Also, if the OL fails in its bid to improve then my guess is...it wont be Watson who turns the offense around, suddenly.

This shroud of mystery will begin to clear up once Wednesday arrives, which begins a solid 3 week run of some upgraded observations.
 
infantrycak said:
Kubiak schemed and Schaub saw TEs. Thats on OB and his litany of QBs.

A true #2 like Kevin Walter?
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A true number two like Hopkins was for Andre Johnson. Andre Johnson is on record saying it was nice to have Hopkins because his entire he didn't have a number two.

And it is crazy how one game with a back up qb all of a sudden TEs appeared. If that wad OB scheming for Savage vs Osweiler that make Oz that more pathetic.

And OD was a great TE. His numbers were not all about scheming.

But that is not the point. Those are distractions from the main point.

The point is Savage is finding Hopkins and using Hopkins as a qb should use a number one WR.
 
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