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Sage Rosenfels a candidate for Starting QB Job in 2007

Arky said:
Got a link for those stats?

I'm not getting the same results at all. For example, the Cleveland game, I'm not seeing where we lost a fumble. IIRC, it occured on the handoff to Chris Taylor but Taylor recovered it. David Carr was charged with the fumble but it was not a lost fumble.

I'm seeing the same for the NE game - no lost fumbles.. just the 4 INT's..
Click to expand...

Actually, here's what I see

Team Fumbles/Lost - Interceptions
Eagles 0/0 - 0
Colts 3/1 - 0
Skins 3/1 - 1
Fins 1/1 - 1
Cowboys 0/0 - 2
Jags 0/0 - 0
Titans 2/2 - 1
Giants 0/0 - 0
Jags 0/0 - 0
Bills 1/0 - 1
Jets 0/0 - 1
Raiders 3/2 - 0
Titans 0/0 - 0
Pats 1/0 - 4
Colts 0/0 - 0
Browns 1/0 - 1
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Actually, here's what I see

Team Fumbles/Lost - Interceptions
Eagles 0/0 - 0
Colts 3/1 - 0
Skins 3/1 - 1
Fins 1/1 - 1
Cowboys 0/0 - 2
Jags 0/0 - 0
Titans 2/2 - 1
Giants 0/0 - 0
Jags 0/0 - 0
Bills 1/0 - 1
Jets 0/0 - 1
Raiders 3/2 - 0
Titans 0/0 - 0
Pats 1/0 - 4
Colts 0/0 - 0
Browns 1/0 - 1
Click to expand...

Where's your link?

That's a big difference in numbers (4 lost fumbles).
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Actually, here's what I see

Team Fumbles/Lost - Interceptions
Eagles 0/0 - 0
Colts 3/1 - 0
Skins 3/1 - 1
Fins 1/1 - 1
Cowboys 0/0 - 2
Jags 0/0 - 0
Titans 2/2 - 1
Giants 0/0 - 0
Jags 0/0 - 0
Bills 1/0 - 1
Jets 0/0 - 1
Raiders 3/2 - 0
Titans 0/0 - 0
Pats 1/0 - 4
Colts 0/0 - 0
Browns 1/0 - 1
Click to expand...

these don't match up to the NFL stats at NFL.com

or let me look again:
Carr was charged with 16 fumbles 7 lost 5 own recovered

ugh! it's like High School

Carson Palmer 15 fumbles 7 lost
Jon Kitna 11 and 9
for comparison
 
TwinSisters said:
these don't match up to the NFL stats at NFL.com

or let me look again:
Carr was charged with 16 fumbles 7 lost 5 own recovered

ugh! it's like High School

Carson Palmer 15 fumbles 7 lost
Jon Kitna 11 and 9
for comparison
Click to expand...

Carr's fumbles are not way higher than that of any other QB's last year.

The problem is that his fumbles came in bunches. He would go two games without one & then bust out 3 in one quarter of the next game.
 
bah007 said:
Carr's fumbles are not way higher than that of any other QB's last year.

The problem is that his fumbles came in bunches. He would go two games without one & then bust out 3 in one quarter of the next game.
Click to expand...

yeah, I agree. 10 fumbles in a season looks like the avg or bar. Most of the elite QBs have single digit fumbles.

BUT there are factors that you cannot always account for... like snap calls, new centers, injuries to hand, weather, dumb RBs, and so forth.

The record for fumbles in a season is 23.
 
TwinSisters said:
yeah, I agree. 10 fumbles in a season looks like the avg or bar. Most of the elite QBs have single digit fumbles.

BUT there are factors that you cannot always account for... like snap calls, new centers, injuries to hand, weather, dumb RBs, and so forth.

The record for fumbles in a season is 23.
Click to expand...

Ya, not sure if this link will work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887

I just heard Rich Lord on 610SR exclaim for about the 19th time "66 fumbles in 76 games!" (career fumbles)

What he doesn't tell you is that only 21 were actually turnovers (Fumbles Lost). Over 5 years, that's roughly 4/year or 1 every 4 games. 1 Turnover every 4 games due to a bad exchange from center, bad handoff, QB getting hit and/or stripped, QB coughing up the ball.... That's really not that bad considering some QB's throw 20+ INT's every year... DC is really not one of those high INT's guys...

Fumbles are not good but Fumbles Lost (turnovers) are the real killer....
 
Arky said:
Ya, not sure if this link will work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887

I just heard Rich Lord on 610SR exclaim for about the 19th time "66 fumbles in 76 games!" (career fumbles)

What he doesn't tell you is that only 21 were actually turnovers (Fumbles Lost). Over 5 years, that's roughly 4/year or 1 every 4 games. 1 Turnover every 4 games due to a bad exchange from center, bad handoff, QB getting hit and/or stripped, QB coughing up the ball.... That's really not that bad considering some QB's throw 20+ INT's every year... DC is really not one of those high INT's guys...

Fumbles are not good but Fumbles Lost (turnovers) are the real killer....
Click to expand...

I'll admit that my method of counting the fumbles......... fumbles loss was not very accurate(after reading some of these posts, and looking over the issue again on NFL.com.)....

However, "That's really not that bad??"

:ok:
 
Arky said:
Ya, not sure if this link will work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887

I just heard Rich Lord on 610SR exclaim for about the 19th time "66 fumbles in 76 games!" (career fumbles)

What he doesn't tell you is that only 21 were actually turnovers (Fumbles Lost). Over 5 years, that's roughly 4/year or 1 every 4 games. 1 Turnover every 4 games due to a bad exchange from center, bad handoff, QB getting hit and/or stripped, QB coughing up the ball.... That's really not that bad considering some QB's throw 20+ INT's every year... DC is really not one of those high INT's guys...

Fumbles are not good but Fumbles Lost (turnovers) are the real killer....
Click to expand...

Rich Lord rarely knows what he's talking about. :loser
 
thunderkyss said:
even if they aren't loss, they are still wasted plays, so they still need to be accounted for.
Click to expand...

I think his point is that not all those fumbles are the QB's fault tho.

A bad snap by the Center counts as a fumble by the QB.

A botched handoff with the RB counts as a fumble by the QB, even if it is not his fault.
 
Stats really have to be taken with a grain of salt. Example: QB passes the ball hitting the receiver perfectlybut the receiver dosen't make the catch and ball pops into the air and is intercepted. Who's at fault? QB throws or gets the INT. So QB gets bad stat when he actually made a perfact play. So don't go for the stats all the time because they are a grey area.
 
thunderkyss said:
However, "That's really not that bad??"

:ok:
Click to expand...

Well, yes, an average of 4 Lost Fumbles/year from the QB position is not *that* bad. Zero would be better, of course.

And you're correct that the QB fumbles that aren't turnovers are really good for nothing - like usually some negative yardage (ball recovered in the backfield, QB falls on bad snap, etc.).... Too many of those....

Howevah, considering our team (QB + teammates) has probably set an NFL record for most sacks in a 5 year period, these QB fumble numbers seem to fit and are not that surprising....

old football fan: Yes, stats are kind of a gray area but they can help to see trends - a grain of salt is right....
 
Arky said:
Howevah, considering our team (QB + teammates) has probably set an NFL record for most sacks in a 5 year period, these QB fumble numbers seem to fit and are not that surprising....
Click to expand...

I think we're like 3rd worst for sacks over a 5 year period. Cunningham and the Eagles were the worst.

I could be wrong about that but I thought I saw that during one of the games.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I think we're like 3rd worst for sacks over a 5 year period. Cunningham and the Eagles were the worst.

I could be wrong about that but I thought I saw that during one of the games.
Click to expand...

The thing about Cunningham ( and the stat for sacks ) is that he would get charged with a sack when it is actually a tackle for a loss. It's subtle and nitpicking, but important I think.

On the fumble issue itself:
I agree with almost everything said, but I have to add that there is a fumble due to a hit and then there is a fumble due to nothing but the QB failing to secure the ball: See Jon Kitna.
 
HJam72 said:
The thing about fumbles is that sometimes the other team gets the ball. :drunk:

PS-Me doing a Madden impression.
Click to expand...

Even worse, sometimes they pick the ball up and run it in for a TD. I can remember 2 times offhand where Carr fumbled and the opposing team picked it up and ran it in (1 time against the Titans and 1 time against the Raiders.)
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Even worse, sometimes they pick the ball up and run it in for a TD. I can remember 2 times offhand where Carr fumbled and the opposing team picked it up and ran it in (1 time against the Titans and 1 time against the Raiders.)
Click to expand...

Yep, the quarterback had some tough games with and without the help of his teammates. He also had some good games...

You were right about Randall Cunningham and the Eagles sack totals being larger than the Texans over a 5-year period.

This is interesting. Ugly QB stats:

David Carr (2002-2006 Texans)
Games played - 76
Sacked - 249
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 66/21
Interceptions - 65

Randall Cunningham (1986-1990 Eagles)
Games played - 75
Sacked - 277
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 57/unknown
Interceptions - 63

Just for fun, I looked up Daunte Culpepper and Jake Plummer:

Daunte Culpepper (2000-2004 Vikings, limited action in 2005 & 2006)
Games played - 73
Sacked - 197
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 72/31
Interceptions - 74

Jake Plummer (1997-2001, Cardinals, start of career)
Games played - 68
Sacked - 179
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 40/18
Interceptions - 94

I can furnish links if necessary - most stats came from www.sports.yahoo.com and Cunningham's came from www.databasefootball.com
ESPN stats were different in the Fumbles category - they call them "rushing" fumbles and are different (and smaller) numbers...

(my apologies to the thread starter for getting off topic)
 
Arky said:
Yep, the quarterback had some tough games with and without the help of his teammates. He also had some good games...

You were right about Randall Cunningham and the Eagles sack totals being larger than the Texans over a 5-year period.

This is interesting. Ugly QB stats:

David Carr (2002-2006 Texans)
Games played - 76
Sacked - 249
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 66/21
Interceptions - 65

Randall Cunningham (1986-1990 Eagles)
Games played - 75
Sacked - 277
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 57/unknown
Interceptions - 63

Just for fun, I looked up Daunte Culpepper and Jake Plummer:

Daunte Culpepper (2000-2004 Vikings, limited action in 2005 & 2006)
Games played - 73
Sacked - 197
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 72/31
Interceptions - 74

Jake Plummer (1997-2001, Cardinals, start of career)
Games played - 68
Sacked - 179
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 40/18
Interceptions - 94

I can furnish links if necessary - most stats came from www.sports.yahoo.com and Cunningham's came from www.databasefootball.com
ESPN stats were different in the Fumbles category - they call them "rushing" fumbles and are different (and smaller) numbers...

(my apologies to the thread starter for getting off topic)
Click to expand...

With these stats Carr doesn't look all that bad. Maybe middle of the pack???? But what about the wins?? Carr must be in last place.
 
old football fan said:
With these stats Carr doesn't look all that bad. Maybe middle of the pack???? But what about the wins?? Carr must be in last place.
Click to expand...

Well let's see:

Randall Cunnigham opened up the NFL for mobile running QBs as oppossed to the pocket passer. Along with putting up 5 straight 10+ win seasons and led a top ten offense 5 to 6 times. 4 or 5 seasons with 20+ TDs and 4 or 5 seasons throwing around 3200 yards while rushing for 500+. 10 starts in the playoffs and Pro Bowl appearances.

( on top of the fact that he could throw a bullet pass 50+ yards )

Culpepper was a little worse. Only one killer season with 4700 Yards and about 400 yards rushing a season. QB on 4 top ten offenses. Started in the playoffs, sat on Pro Bowl teams.

Jake Plummer... well now we get closer to Carr. Was the starter for a franchise that hadn't won a post season game since 1947, and then did. Beating the Dallas Cowboys so bad that it took them 5 years to turn in another winning season.
 
TwinSisters said:
Well let's see:

Randall Cunnigham opened up the NFL for mobile running QBs as oppossed to the pocket passer. Along with putting up 5 straight 10+ win seasons and led a top ten offense 5 to 6 times. 4 or 5 seasons with 20+ TDs and 4 or 5 seasons throwing around 3200 yards while rushing for 500+. 10 starts in the playoffs and Pro Bowl appearances.

( on top of the fact that he could throw a bullet pass 50+ yards )

Culpepper was a little worse. Only one killer season with 4700 Yards and about 400 yards rushing a season. QB on 4 top ten offenses. Started in the playoffs, sat on Pro Bowl teams.

Jake Plummer... well now we get closer to Carr. Was the starter for a franchise that hadn't won a post season game since 1947, and then did. Beating the Dallas Cowboys so bad that it took them 5 years to turn in another winning season.
Click to expand...

No Randle didn't. I suggest you go back and watch Fran Tarkington to find the first running back. Heck even Otto Graham did some running as a QB.
 
old football fan said:
No Randle didn't. I suggest you go back and watch Fran Tarkington to find the first running back. Heck even Otto Graham did some running as a QB.
Click to expand...

Well, let's say brought the Steve Grogan model back into vogue. I think he was the last real running QB that started full-time. Steve Young followed Cunningham up with Super Bowl appearances. So the path looks like Grogan - Cunningham - Young - Vick.

Tarkenton wasn't a running QB, he was a scrambler.

Grogan, Cunnignham, Young had plays designed with a run as an option or the primary option in regular use. ( 70-100 rushes called )

Graham looked more like the era and didn't really stick out ( just going off of stats here, his attempts and yards are on par with Unitas )
 
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