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Sadness becomes a Texan when he looks at this board.

D

Dime

Veteran
Ok.. Open myself up to more flaming, but this needs to be addressed.

I am so glad we have so little need. :drool: We only are having (mainly) discussions on Bush/Young, and most of you (not all) are forgetting about the positions of NEED! Oline (3-4 NEEDED players there, I have only heard 1 or 2 names on this board), WR (1-2 needs there), D-Line (1-3 Needs to be training replacement players), LB (1-2 Needs here), CB (1-2 Needs there)

I have heard AJ Hawk. The other players pretty much have fallen off everyones radar (except for a few of you). We have a bunch of need, what about we start discussing players who can fit the needs more here.

Ok... Im your Pinata
 
Dime said:
I have heard AJ Hawk. The other players pretty much have fallen off everyones radar (except for a few of you). We have a bunch of need, what about we start discussing players who can fit the needs more here.

Ok... Im your Pinata
Click to expand...

not from me .... I'm there with you ... Hawk (or Ferguson) would look good in Steel Blue
 
My top choice in the whole draft would still be a trade down and Mario Williams with our first pick, then Eric Winston and Nick Mangold in the 2nd round, followed by the best CB/S and then WR/TE in the 3rd round.
 
Excellent.. Finally getting somewhere.. My question is

Can third round Oline be viable enough to be starters? Or should he be keys in the second round?
 
I sure hope that careful consideration is given to a TE in the 2nd round .... having that guy in the middle forgives sooooo many sins on 3rd down* and in the red zone ....

* see Jay Novachek
 
I want a guaranteed impact o-lineman - like Orlando Pace or Tony Mandarich. :rolleyes:

Seriously, the draft evaluation is hard work and anyone who claims to know "the" answer is fooling himself. No college player is guaranteed a successful NFL career, much less the Hall of Fame as seems to be implied here frequently.

I don't know what to do - I like Bush's potential upside given the assumed new offensive system, but trading down helps reduce the risk/cost impact of the draft. I also think it is easier for defensive players to make an immediate impact and fill a need.

So my suggestion? I'm still not sure, but I thought I'd throw out that food for thought.
 
When you suck as badly as we did, you don't have the luxary of filling needs with either our #1 overall or even our 2nd rd'r. It's BPA all the way, at least in the first day. If you have a player rated slightly below another player who would fill a need then maybe you pick that need player, maybe.

We did not screw this up over 1 weekend so we're definately not gonna fix in 1 weekend (the draft). This takes time. Needs get filled in FA and in the 3rd - 7th round of the draft for us sucky teams and the teams that are a plyer or two away can go need in the 1st round as well as package up the later pix to move up in the 2nd to fill another need (sounds familiar don't it, and we weren't a player or two away either). I still say we take BPA in the 3rd, at least one of them.
 
Dime said:
Ok.. Open myself up to more flaming, but this needs to be addressed.

I am so glad we have so little need. :drool: We only are having (mainly) discussions on Bush/Young, and most of you (not all) are forgetting about the positions of NEED! Oline (3-4 NEEDED players there, I have only heard 1 or 2 names on this board), WR (1-2 needs there), D-Line (1-3 Needs to be training replacement players), LB (1-2 Needs here), CB (1-2 Needs there)

I have heard AJ Hawk. The other players pretty much have fallen off everyones radar (except for a few of you). We have a bunch of need, what about we start discussing players who can fit the needs more here.

Ok... Im your Pinata
Click to expand...

Check out my posts I have preached this same line. I have been beat on for my trade down opinion. Dbrickshaw fergusan is the OL I would work to aquire. Hawk looks good too." Keep on preaching"

Amen
 
Dime said:
Excellent.. Finally getting somewhere.. My question is

Can third round Oline be viable enough to be starters? Or should he be keys in the second round?
Click to expand...

It's possible, since we have the top picks in Round 3 and this year has SO many good O-line players.

Eric Winston (due to injury status) is often projected in the early 3rd - some scouts discount the injury and project him in the 1st. Davin Joseph usually gets late 2nd status. Nick Mangold is often projected in the early 3rd.

Brick
Justice
Winston
McNeil
Jean-Giles
Scott
Colledge
Joseph
Trueblood
Whitworth
Mangold
Eslinger
Lutui

That's 13 guys who have O-line upgrade written all over them. Will one of them be available at pick #65? I'd make that bet. I'd even go for 2 (and we have pick #66 as well).
 
My opinion is we sign either Alexander or Edge (both from what I heard are not going to be returning) trade DD for a second round pick and then trade down, get extra picks and pick up D-brick or Hawk.
 
MorKnolle said:
My top choice in the whole draft would still be a trade down and Mario Williams with our first pick, then Eric Winston and Nick Mangold in the 2nd round, followed by the best CB/S and then WR/TE in the 3rd round.
Click to expand...

My first choice was always Bush followed by O-line, TE and D line with the next three picks. Maybe even another O-lineman..depends on the TE. I love VY but I think they are keeping Carr. Not a big fan of that either but you can only fill so many holes. After seeing Pitt in the playoffs and some other teams I wouldn't mind moving down for D though. I posted on the draft board a few weeks back about Hawk being a guy who I think is a can't miss because of his motor. I like Williams too. I think the draft is deep enough that you can get the O-line, TE and even safety with the rest of those top picks.
 
The O-line is very deep in the draft and I'm guessing that is why most MB's continue with the whole Bush/Young/D'brich thing. Many people believe that if we take either Young/Bush we would still be able to get a really good OT. I believe that since the draft is so stacked with alot of positions except for LB's. We might not be able to draft on the defensive side of the ball until next year. Remeber that this is another process that isn't going to be an over the night fix and I suppose we will try to make the best of who we have on the defensive side of the ball until we get a better feeling of what the new 4-3 to 3-4 hybrid is going to look like. I say we stay focused on the offensive side of the ball game this year and plug in the needs on defense next year. Every year there is a player like none other and it is easdy to get caught up in all the hoopla of every expert that has an opinion. Next year there's a kid by the name of Gaines Adams that is supose to be bettter than M. Willams that will be comiong out to the NFL. And don't forget about the kid from Penn Sate that's suppose to be better that A.J. Hawk. You see ther is always somome who is suppose to be better than the one before. we need to stay focused and attend to one problem at a time to make sure that whoever we pick on one side of the ball game is the very best pickup possible.
 
on late round Oline rookies being starters.


Ive come to the conclusion that we are gonna need to groom Olinemen no matter what. If we used one of our first two picks on an Olineman, yah..he might be able to start for us.. but I dont see a rookie coming in and turning things around for us in his first year... not on the Oline... not just one man.

So..with that in mind... that means that we are gonna HAVE to get our current Oline to work better this offseason.. either through better coaching or FA acquisitions.. and in the draft..we need to use LATE ROUND picks on Olinemen and start grooming them to be starters by 2007..2008 at the latest. Id like to see us pick up alot of Olinemen...but id like all of them to be grabbed on the second day..and as undrafted free agents. (maybe one Olineman first day if its good value)
 
If we are five to six players away from being a play-off contending team, which McNair has claimed, then who are those players?

I think it is a playmaker, two offensive linemen, a tight end, a linebacker, corner, and maybe safety.

With the draft as deep as it is, I think we can really exploit it this year. First round - playmaker (RB), second round - TE and lineman, third round - ???. Who are the top corners/linebackers/safeties? Cause we can only get two.

I think it is key to this team that we pick up one to two people in free agency. A lineman and somebody on defense.
 
Grid said:
on late round Oline rookies being starters.


Ive come to the conclusion that we are gonna need to groom Olinemen no matter what. If we used one of our first two picks on an Olineman, yah..he might be able to start for us.. but I dont see a rookie coming in and turning things around for us in his first year... not on the Oline... not just one man.

So..with that in mind... that means that we are gonna HAVE to get our current Oline to work better this offseason.. either through better coaching or FA acquisitions.. and in the draft..we need to use LATE ROUND picks on Olinemen and start grooming them to be starters by 2007..2008 at the latest. Id like to see us pick up alot of Olinemen...but id like all of them to be grabbed on the second day..and as undrafted free agents. (maybe one Olineman first day if its good value)
Click to expand...

A lot of improving the OLine will be in coaching and in our offensive system, but at the same time there are certain talent limitations that every player has, and most of the guys on our OLine that limit is pretty low, as it is with most of the guys that will end up going in the later rounds. Sure they should hopefully improve with our new coaches and system, but still you need to get some guys in there too that have the potential to be great, we've ignored our OLine problems long enough and tried to satisfy them with later round picks and free agents, and at some point we need to get a couple of them in the higher rounds, and with this year being a great year for OLine talent I think this is the year we have to look at that. I think the rest of our offense is close to being a very good offense, and if we could finally fix up our OLine then that could put our offense into the top 10 in the league in a year. I don't expect our whole offense to suddenly be fixed week 1 of 2006, but at some point you have to start fixing it and let the young talent grow and get better, and if you can draft some guys that already have good talent and have the potential to be very good OLinemen, and when adding them could/should help propel our offense to a top 10 offense in a year or two then I say you have to look to fix that this year. Adding a ton of depth of free agents (who are undrafted/unsigned for a reason) and lower round quality players won't do much other than fill our roster with more junky players and hope that five out of them will emerge as decent players, or you could draft a couple of the top guys and let them anchor your OLine for a decade.
 
oso said:
If we are five to six players away from being a play-off contending team, which McNair has claimed, then who are those players?

I think it is a playmaker, two offensive linemen, a tight end, a linebacker, corner, and maybe safety.

With the draft as deep as it is, I think we can really exploit it this year. First round - playmaker (RB), second round - TE and lineman, third round - ???. Who are the top corners/linebackers/safeties? Cause we can only get two.

I think it is key to this team that we pick up one to two people in free agency. A lineman and somebody on defense.
Click to expand...

Add DE to that since we are transitioning to a 4-3. Adding a good passrushing DE, upgrading the LB core (mainly need a MLB), upgrading at one CB and a coverage S should improve the defense drastically.
2-3 OLinemen (one OT and two interior, maybe even all three interior since Wiegert is getting old) would go a long way towards fixing up our offense. A pass catching TE would be a valuable addition, and then another playmaker, whether it be a faster RB or a better/fast WR, or a combination of those two (maybe Reggie Bush?), and our offense should be looking great, although I think our offense can still be successful without having to add that "home run" threat guy, just not as successful as it would be with a guy like Bush in there, but to me OLine is the most important thing to get fixed up.
 
MorKnolle said:
Sure they should hopefully improve with our new coaches and system, but still you need to get some guys in there too that have the potential to be great, we've ignored our OLine problems long enough and tried to satisfy them with later round picks and free agents, and at some point we need to get a couple of them in the higher rounds, and with this year being a great year for OLine talent I think this is the year we have to look at that.
Click to expand...

I've posted elsewhere on this board that I think a good, doable o-line scenario is picking up Bentley as a free agent to solidify the middle of the line and drafting a guard and a tackle for depth/grooming (1 second, 1 third round?). That leaves still leaves good picks for other need ares.
 
MorKnolle said:
Add DE to that since we are transitioning to a 4-3. Adding a good passrushing DE, upgrading the LB core (mainly need a MLB), upgrading at one CB and a coverage S should improve the defense drastically.
2-3 OLinemen (one OT and two interior, maybe even all three interior since Wiegert is getting old) would go a long way towards fixing up our offense. A pass catching TE would be a valuable addition, and then another playmaker, whether it be a faster RB or a better/fast WR, or a combination of those two (maybe Reggie Bush?), and our offense should be looking great, although I think our offense can still be successful without having to add that "home run" threat guy, just not as successful as it would be with a guy like Bush in there, but to me OLine is the most important thing to get fixed up.
Click to expand...

Is it in stone that we are doing the 4 - 3?
 
It has been said we wil rotate somewhat between 3-4 and 4-3, but for the most part it will be 4-3. This was said by Kubiak.
 
Dime said:
Is it in stone that we are doing the 4 - 3?
Click to expand...

Pretty much but since we do not have the personnel to play the 4-3, we will be using a hybrid until we can implement the 4-3 with the right people.
 
Sarg01 said:
It's possible, since we have the top picks in Round 3 and this year has SO many good O-line players.

Brick
Justice
Winston
McNeil
Jean-Giles
Scott
Colledge
Joseph
Trueblood
Whitworth
Mangold
Eslinger
Lutui

That's 13 guys who have O-line upgrade written all over them. Will one of them be available at pick #65? I'd make that bet. I'd even go for 2 (and we have pick #66 as well).
Click to expand...

Mark Setterstrom from Minnesota is another lineman to keep an eye on. More agility and technique than pure brawn. The kind of guy that could succeed in a well-run zone blocking scheme. He could even be there in the 4th, but I see him going somewhere in the 3rd.

Overall, I'm really starting to lean towards the trade down and grab Brick or Williams. I think Hawk is best suited for Weakside in a 4-3 and the Texans have a lot of linebackers already under contract. He'd be an upgrade, but in a 4-3 they have Babin to play weakside DE, but nobody that has the combination of size, speed, and ability to play strongside DE. Williams fits that bill.
 
you're not going to compete next year, so filling all your needs now while bypassing potentially all-time great players isn't smart
 
Dime said:
Excellent.. Finally getting somewhere.. My question is

Can third round Oline be viable enough to be starters? Or should he be keys in the second round?
Click to expand...

In this draft, offensive tackle talent is everywhere. There are 5 offensive linemen that would normally grade into the first, but will fall because of the amount of talent out there. Great year to build an offensive line.
 
Dime said:
Ok.. Open myself up to more flaming, but this needs to be addressed.

I am so glad we have so little need. :drool: We only are having (mainly) discussions on Bush/Young, and most of you (not all) are forgetting about the positions of NEED! Oline (3-4 NEEDED players there, I have only heard 1 or 2 names on this board), WR (1-2 needs there), D-Line (1-3 Needs to be training replacement players), LB (1-2 Needs here), CB (1-2 Needs there)

I have heard AJ Hawk. The other players pretty much have fallen off everyones radar (except for a few of you). We have a bunch of need, what about we start discussing players who can fit the needs more here.

Ok... Im your Pinata
Click to expand...

If it's not obvious, the reason there is so much talk about the 1st pick and Bush/Young is that everyone agrees that the rest of the draft should target our areas of significant needs, being the O line, the D line, and LB, CB, etc. And everyone assumes that this is the way the rest of the draft will go.

A lot of the trade Carr talk is predicated on the need for extra picks and the thought that extra picks might be had with such a trade. Maybe a low first and a low 2nd or a player (addressing one of the other needs) and a 2nd or 3rd.

The trade down folk also want to get picks for the 1st pick and thus improve the chances of addressing all the needs listed above.

So the only real dispute is what to do with the 1st pick, and that's why it has preoccupied the board.
 
"you're not going to compete next year, so filling all your needs now while bypassing potentially all-time great players isn't smart." -- dolphins poster

--------------------

Is that you, Nick Saban?

"...not going to compete next year...."

Man, thanks for the uplifting tidbits. You and Nick have a great career in the motivational speaking field.

Back to the topic: Kubiak will draft Bush at the no. 1 spot. Period. He wants a loaded backfield, and that's what you get when you have DD, Wells, Morency, and Bush who can also play WR while leaving DD/Wells/or Morency in the backfield on the SAME play. Throw in AJ who is split out along with Mathis in there, too, and you've got some serious matchup advantages.

---------------------------------

Check this 11-man squad out:

2 guards
2 tackles
1 center
QB-Carr

RB-DD or Wells or Morency
RB-Bush or Wells or Morency

WR-AJ (speed AND power)
WR-Mathis (raw speed)
(Bush can sprint out and become a WR, too, without taking up a spot at WR)

TE to give extra protection/run pass route/run block OR... Another WR: Gaffney or Armstrong or Free Agent :)

----------------------------------


Kubiak and his guys will work with Carr and the o line, leaps and bounds ahead of the previous staff who wasted four years of our lives.

I used to be hardcore "Trade and draft 'Brick" but now after thinking about this for a few weeks I equally favor drafting Bush at No. 1 with trading down and getting 'Brick at No. 3 or No. 4.

I just think Kubiak wants Reggie Bush in a bad way to take pressure off Carr, and I know this theory ONLY works if this new staff can make large improvements with the o line, or if we can upgrade at o line by luck in the draft or through free agency (which isn't likely).

God help Kubiak, that's all I got to say.
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
I just think Kubiak wants Reggie Bush in a bad way to take pressure off Carr,
Click to expand...

The absolute BEST WAY to take pressure off Carr is to draft Vince Young. I figure about 8 weeks into the season there'll be no pressure on Carr whatsoever.
 
I'd kill for Ferguson to be our pick, even if it took us taking him with the 1st overall selection (rather than with a traded-down selection).
 
D'Brick is probably the best LT I have seen come out of college in many years. That being said, would he fit in with Kubiak's scheme? Is he mobile enough? I don't know. If he is, does that make him more valuable in the draft than a part-time RB or a QB that would ride the pine for a year or two? O-Linemen generally have long careers, but QB's have fairly long carreers too. RB's tend to have the shortest carreers on average. So I ask you...who brings the most value for our #1 pick?
 
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