paycheck71
Hall of Fame
If they cut him after this year, they take a $10.5MM dead money cap hit, which is also a $4MM cap savings over keeping him. They gain $4MM in cap room by cutting him. How's that a major cap implication?
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Rick Smith's poor job of managing the cap has closed our window for the time being.
- Thread starter TexansFight
- Start date
If they cut him after this year, they take a $10.5MM dead money cap hit, which is also a $4MM cap savings over keeping him. They gain $4MM in cap room by cutting him. How's that a major cap implication?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Would you rather have $42 mil for 24 contracts COLTS ($1.75 mil per player ) or $8 mil for 15 contracts TEXANS ($500K per player)? This is not a trick question. If you think 2013 is BAD WAIT until 2014. And 2015 is worse.
In what way? You are spending LESS money on the QB position. Allowing you to spend MORE money in other places.
SchaubApologist
Waterboy
what are you contributing?
you don't think i know that a low cost QB will help even out schaub's dead money?
you are completely missing the big picture. with schaub's dead money, we lose the time in which our "low cost qb" is an actual "low cost qb".
did you think of that? no, probably not.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Ahhh, I see. I have nothing else to say to you.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Not really. If you discovered his replacement (and it's an upgrade) at a price that does not impact the cap at all, then the team can take that cap hit and make the transition without having to alter its cap/personnel plans. Sure it would be better to not have that dead money. However, they planned for 2014 with Schaub's salary on the books. So, it is an easy and clean transition, if it is done.
SchaubApologist
Waterboy
if you look at the texans books, our "planning" has heavily depended on borrowing against future cap space by restructuring deals and signing back loaded contracts. if you think '14's cap looks bleak, take a look at '15. it gets really ugly.
Stop comparing to the Colts to make the Texans look bad. They had nearly 40 million in dead money after a fire sale. It is as useful to comparing the Texans to the Cowboys to make them look good.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I bet the fans are livid in Seattle- demanding to get rid of the Seahawk front office for spending all that money on Matt Flynn, when they could have had the extra money, trusting that Russell Wilson would immediately be the guy. Yeah, I bet they are outraged about the awful cap management!!
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Of course I would rather have more money to spend. But that's such a simplified view. You have to look at how both teams got here. The Colts blew up the team, tanked a season, and got lucky with a potentially franchise QB, who's getting paid peanuts. I don't think it's fair to compare the Texans to the Colts at this point.
I think it's fair to criticize the Texans talent evaluation, as I mentioned in my previous post, but not cap management. There are no impending dead money disasters IMO, and it's always easier to criticize Cushing contract after tonight. But what if he hadn't gotten injured and walked after the season? He's one of the best players on our D, IMO you had to extend him.
SchaubApologist
Waterboy
bad example. seahawks traded matt flynn & his contract to oakland. thus, it had zero impact on seattle's future dealings.
try again.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
That is simply not true. The Texans cap philosophy is the opposite. They want to keep the books clean and not sacrifice one year for another. Looking forward, the cap is quite healthy. Some contracts are back-loaded, of course. But that is empowering for the Texans, because they can cut the player at the end of a contract and save themselves from the huge salary, if they choose, without taking on any substantial dead money. For instance, Danieal Manning and OD will both be cut next year to save about $10 million in cap unless they agree to restructure.
Also, all teams are forecasting a significant increase in the cap number by 2015.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Neg rep me? Real classy...
Actually first round draft picks have 5 years of cheap labor (with the 5th year club option) so Schaub's 7 million would only impact one of those years.
9 million is the average salary for an NFL quarterback, how cheap are you looking to get. You are the one saying it is a disaster, and the position you are focusing on could be an advantage soon.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Wrong. You don't know what you are talking about. When a player is traded, the prorated salary bonus all hits the team trading him that season. From a cap standpoint, it is identical to cutting a player.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Great post! MSR
Texian
Hall of Fame
The one position where you want to spend money is QB. Every team covets and would love to have a legitimate $20 million a year QB. This cutting corners thinking is exactly what has gotten the Texans in the current mess they're in. Too many band aids.
Are you watching SNF? It is what it is and The Texans need to do exactly the same thing, have fire sale and clean house. If they don't it won't be more of the same things will actually get worse. If you can't get better then you're getting worse and that's what the Texans have been doing for the last several years.
They want to have a good QB, they don't want to spend more money getting one. Playoff teams spent 8.4 million on their QB, all the other teams spent 1.5 million more. At this point it would be cutting Schaub for performance, not cost cutting.
Yes I am watching football. The guy making peanuts is outplaying the guy who just got another 42 million guaranteed. It kinda goes opposite of your point.
Below was posted in 04/2011.
I said then it would be the biggest decision made up to that point in Texans history. The trade would have cleared money that year to tie up some players we lost the next year. It was a no brainer to me.
04-20-2011 #136
gafftop
Hall of Fame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
If we were to trade Mario it would happen after this draft and when the new CBA is agreed to. Then it would involve 2012 draft picks and/or current players. If we really want a prospect from this years draft, say Peterson or Miller or whoever, the stars are going to have to align for THAT specific team to be willing to give up their Top 5-10 draft pick (Peterson) plus maybe a 2012 pick PLUS see the need for MArio to be on their team and be willing to give him that big contract your talking about.
I have more faith that Wade Phillips can get Mario to play great in this defense than I do Peterson or Miller coming in as a rookie and being better. Mario isn't going anywhere.
I tend to agree with you. It makes me sick that we will get nothing or worse we sign Mario to another big contract. I would be OK with a proven player and a high draft choice next year. That is better than nothing. The Patriots get incrementally better with each trade. It may not be a blockbuster trade but they do get better and younger. The overall talent level of the team is always getting better, plus they know talent that allows them to continually get better. The Texans on the other hand tend to make trades that makes no difference or more often makes them worse. Have they ever made a trade that improved the team? I know Schaub, but we did not give up an actual player. Have we ever traded a player and received a draft choice or player? i umderstand we don't have a lot to trade. Mario is about the only one that MAY have value that I would trade. Just rambling now not looking forward to this coming season
I said then it would be the biggest decision made up to that point in Texans history. The trade would have cleared money that year to tie up some players we lost the next year. It was a no brainer to me.
04-20-2011 #136
gafftop
Hall of Fame
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Age: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
If we were to trade Mario it would happen after this draft and when the new CBA is agreed to. Then it would involve 2012 draft picks and/or current players. If we really want a prospect from this years draft, say Peterson or Miller or whoever, the stars are going to have to align for THAT specific team to be willing to give up their Top 5-10 draft pick (Peterson) plus maybe a 2012 pick PLUS see the need for MArio to be on their team and be willing to give him that big contract your talking about.
I have more faith that Wade Phillips can get Mario to play great in this defense than I do Peterson or Miller coming in as a rookie and being better. Mario isn't going anywhere.
I tend to agree with you. It makes me sick that we will get nothing or worse we sign Mario to another big contract. I would be OK with a proven player and a high draft choice next year. That is better than nothing. The Patriots get incrementally better with each trade. It may not be a blockbuster trade but they do get better and younger. The overall talent level of the team is always getting better, plus they know talent that allows them to continually get better. The Texans on the other hand tend to make trades that makes no difference or more often makes them worse. Have they ever made a trade that improved the team? I know Schaub, but we did not give up an actual player. Have we ever traded a player and received a draft choice or player? i umderstand we don't have a lot to trade. Mario is about the only one that MAY have value that I would trade. Just rambling now not looking forward to this coming season
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Here's a link to some Cushing contract details for those of you really worried.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23509370/texans-cost-for-cushing-extension-could-be-as-low-as-1-year-122m
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/23509370/texans-cost-for-cushing-extension-could-be-as-low-as-1-year-122m
Texian
Hall of Fame
Here is the truth, since 2010 the Texans have for every year mortgaged the future. Every year the Texans have restructured contracts to get under the cap. The books are NOT clean. Each new league year the Texans begin with not enough salary cap space to meet their bare minimum obligations. That's why they have to borrow every year from future years by restructuring contracts. This is the reason the Texans have become what they have today.
In essence the Texans have borrowed every year for 4 years they have compromised the salary cap. Instead of having 100% of the salary cap to work with they only have 85%-90% because they've to pay back what they borrowed. That's why every year they have only been able to sign vets worthy of league minimums instead of potential pro bowl players or players good enough to make more than league minimums. Too many band aids.
Your back loading argument would make sense if they weren't restructuring contracts every year but they are. Case in point, Mario's backloaded contract paid him $18 million in 2011. Yet when his $18 million came off the books in 2012 the Texans started the 2012 new year only $3 million under the cap.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
It seems to me that a few arguments are being muddled together, which confuse the reaility of the Texans' situation.
1st issue: was the Schaub re-signing a mistake? - Barring some unexpected twists and turns to this season, I think everyone will agree that it was, including the Texans' organization when they cut him loose in the off-season.
2nd Issue: was the contract a bad one? - I don't think so. It is a deal that looks good when compared to the deals other successful organizations handed out in similar situations (Seattle- Flynn, SF- A.Smith).
3rd issue: What does the Schaub contract do to the cap moving forward - Looking at the cap situation and what happened in Seattle and SF in similar situations, I don't think the contract puts the Texans in a difficult position, nor sets them back at all. The one exception is that it makes it unlikely that the Texans would jump high into the 1st round or spend big money on a free agent QB this coming year. Apart from that, the Texans can be clear from the contract without having to make difficult off-season cuts and without mortgaging anything in the future years.
Goatcheese
Texan
There's not a lot that could have been done differently. Everyone expected the cap to go up substantially, but the NFL pulled some wonkass math out on everyone with buried CBA details and it didn't budge.
The only big thing I would have changed was not giving Foster the huge pay day(I said this at the time, not revisionist history). He was a RFA and we had Tate as insurance. Now we have a 4 YPC back making elite money when we could have kept the O-Line intact.
The only big thing I would have changed was not giving Foster the huge pay day(I said this at the time, not revisionist history). He was a RFA and we had Tate as insurance. Now we have a 4 YPC back making elite money when we could have kept the O-Line intact.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Surely JamesBill you are smart enough to now that Luck in his next contract in 2 years will be getting his $100 million contract. No it doesn't go opposite to my point.
If the Texans are great at cap management, why are they always up against the cap every offseason?
I've got a problem signing any player (including Cushing) that's coming off a major injury to a long term contract, especially when it's not absolutely necessary to sign an extention. Make the player play out the yr (prove he can stay healthy) and then extend the player. Kinda like the Ravens (Who are great at cap management) did with Flacco.
They can extend the current contract to a fifth year. That will probably be good leverage compared to Aaron Rodgers. Can't say for sure because no rookie under those rules has signed an extension yet.
Thanks, agree with everything you laid out in a better organized format.
I guess it is because Cushing was injured today, but Foster and Schaub extensions are much worse than Cushing's. Plus Cushing tore his LCL, his previous injury didn't cause that problem.
Texian
Hall of Fame
If the Texans don't clean house and have their own fire sale the Texans will be playing second fiddle to Andrew Luck much the same way the Texans played second fiddle to Peyton Manning.
Goatcheese
Texan
Did you just use Flacco as an example of doing cap management right? They had to pay the dude twice as much because they couldn't get a contract done before his brief moment in the sun. Now he's making Manning Money and playing like Joe Flacco.
Which one is Schaub?
Which one is Super Bowl MVP GOAT Joe SUPERSTAR Flacco?
8 TD 8 INT 273 YPG 7.1 YPA
8 TD 9 INT 258 YPG 6.7 YPA
What are you calling clean house? I agree with cutting Schaub, Reed, JJo and Foster. Those moves would not take away much talent, and would be huge for the Cap even after you sign Tate.
SchaubApologist
Waterboy
schaub
jjo
foster
reed
daniels
not resigning:
antonio smith
ben tate
would be a good start.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Smubiak must go, along with Schaub, Foster, Manning and Reed. The house is clean and salary cap repaired and restored.
drs23
Veteran
Yeah, well I remember after the lock out and the signings of the new TV contracts that everyone's impression was that the NFL was going to make it rain when everything was settled. Well it didn't rain. It wasn't even really a light drizzle. More like a drought. I'll be surprised if it's much more than a light shower in 2015.
We'll see.
What would you do with Wade? Do you think he would be OK being passed on for the HC job? If he agrees to stay, do you think a top flight HC will agree to him as the DC?
Texian
Hall of Fame
That I don't know but you have to give the new Head Coach the freedom to hire his coaches. Making demands on a new HC from the get go is not a good way to start. I'm guessing that Wade would be happy to stay in Houston if given the opportunity. I don't think Bob McNair will make Wade HC.
I'm gonna have to call BS on this point you keep hammering. The bottom of our roster being one of the weakest is simply not true... that's why you see even some of our cuts like Chris Jones and Clutts playing major roles for other teams. Can you name one vet-min player we had to scramble to find to fill out the roster this off season? Only one close to that was Joe Mays who starts for us.
The majority of those 8-10 minimums you mentioned were the undrafted free agents who turned out to have enough potential to make the squad - every team brings in UFA for camp bodies & to find gems. Wood, Jefferson, Bouye, Tuggle, or Griffin would be snatched up by another squad if we didn't keep. Even then, if you take a look at other rosters 8-10 making 500-900k is not bad at all. Filling it with too many 2-4$mil players would be even more irresponsible cap-wise, but we still managed to bring in Greg Jones, Lechler, and Reed.
Smith has definitely made some missteps, but this story about the team being forced to fill out the roster with cheap scrubs to make up for cap-mismanagement is false.
You mean after having to lose 6 starters to free agency, Lewis and Birk coming off the books, and being forced to trade Boldin. That almost sounds like what we had to do to get Arian signed.
They were able to give Michael Huff $6mil to be a backup, $8mil to Chris Canty as a stopgap and trade for a 1st round bust castoff from the Jags to make up for the McKinnie $7mill re-signing gaffe. Dumerville and Daryl Smith are nice adds but even Rick Smith could've pulled off that offseason.
STEEL BLUE TEXANS
Hall of Fame
Then why didn't he. God knows we could use Daryl Smith right about now and he only cost Baltimore 1.1m on a one year deal.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
You are crazy adding Foster to that list, has he been a little banged up ? Sure he has, but he is still one of the best RBs in the NFL. That would be a mistake IMO.
As well as Manning, he is one of the only bright spots in the secondary, is he older ? Sure but Safties have proven to be able to play good even while getting older than CBs.
Mr. White
Retired OLine Coach
Anyone assigning credit or blame to Rick Smith is assuming too much. Bob McNair could be making these calls for all we know. The truth is that we don't know who runs the team or how their powers are divided.
Just guessing here....but I think not offering Glover Quin was a Rick Smith call. Then bringing in Ed Reed must have been a McNair call since it made zero football sense.
Also, anyone looking to hang the cap crisis on Smith needs to consider Chris Olsen since he was hired from the NFL specifically to avoid such a disaster.
None of this means that I think Rick Smith should get a pass. I haven't seen or heard anything that leads me to believe that he brings anything to the table.
Just guessing here....but I think not offering Glover Quin was a Rick Smith call. Then bringing in Ed Reed must have been a McNair call since it made zero football sense.
Also, anyone looking to hang the cap crisis on Smith needs to consider Chris Olsen since he was hired from the NFL specifically to avoid such a disaster.
None of this means that I think Rick Smith should get a pass. I haven't seen or heard anything that leads me to believe that he brings anything to the table.
The truth is simple .... because of the letdown from the expectations many had going into the season , fans are looking for a scapegoat ... Smith is next in line behind Schaub and Kubiak.
Nope
I've been saying Smith was a large part of the problem since the Okoye/Jacoby draft. Then he's on his own in the 2010 draft brcause Gary decided to have an elective surgery during the combine and Rick fell flat on his face.
Rick is more teflon than anything else. Nothing sticks to him. Nothing sticks to Gary either for that matter.
The failure of the on the field product falls squarely on BoB's shoulders.
They all blew it in the middle rounds of this past draft ....
I still think he's done a reasonable job managing the cap .... they shot for the moon this year and were let down hard by their QB.
I'd much rather have Glover Quin than Ed Reed tho ......
They all blew it in the middle rounds of this past draft ....
I still think he's done a reasonable job managing the cap .... they shot for the moon this year and were let down hard by their QB.
I'd much rather have Glover Quin than Ed Reed tho ......
Do you think they are still paying for going all in on the JoJo/Manning extentions and the unwise (IMHO) re-signing of Schaub/Cushing when they didn't have to be re-signed and were coming off major injuries.
BTW, this isn't MMQBing, I said it was a bad idea when these signings were done.
Bottom line for me is this mess all falls on BoB.
The short answer is yes ....
They do have an awful lot of $$$ tied up in those four players ..... J.Jo and Schaub being the two highest cap hits on the team this season.
I've said before that I thought resigning Schaub last season was premature , but I can see why they did it. The QB spot is the hardest position to fill in all of sports and he appeared healthy.
If anything , I question the medical advice they are getting when Doc nailed the injury and subsequent issues surrounding it as being degerative.
Cushing was starting to look like the Cushing from before the ACL ..... at least in my opinion. That was just a bad break - no pun intended - for both the team and Cushing.
If there was one move I could take back , it would be Glover Quin staying over bringing in Ed Reed.
I was fine with Barwin walking even tho I think he got a bad rap last season when it came to sack numbers. He did a lot of other things well (setting the edge and played well in coverage) and he did get a lot of pressure , just didn't get home enough. He wasn't a make or break piece for the defense.
Overall , I believe they set themselves up good cap wise to go all in this season and make a deep playoff run. The preseason expectations back that up .... Schaub let them down with his abysmal play. Hard to fathom him playing that poorly ....
TexansFight
Veteran
Great post. This is why I covet DeCosta, Ozzie Newsome's right hand guy in Baltimore, to come in as our new GM. I want a salary cap witch like Daryl Morey and DeCosta is in the same mold.
PHILLYTEXANFAN
Saddle Up Partner
What if the next regime wants to move on without Dre???
Texian
Hall of Fame
NO it's a fact, the cheap players make the case regardless of the number of excuses you use. Evidence is clear that the reason more expensive players were not signed is simply because they could not afford them.
You can call it whatever you want to call it but whatever you call it, it will be just another excuse. All the excuses says DENIAL.
He couldn't and more important, he didn't. 1. Couldn't afford them 2. What could the Texans afford after cutting trading so many to give Foster a raise? Answer, Foster's raise, that's all. 3. Rick Smith is to Gary Kubiak what Scott Pioli was to Belichick. Regardless Smubiak still couldn't do it because they still can't afford it. That's my exact point for the last 4 years. The Texans couldn't get better through FA, they've been doing the ole 2 step backwards dance the last 4 years. It has finally caught up with them and you're seeing those results today.
Sep 22 Baltimore 30 Texans 9
I would try to trade Foster. The days of Alex Gibbs ZBS are days gone by. Foster is a 4 ypc or < RB today. That's nothing exceptional. With the decline of the OL it's not going to get any better, likely worse.
According to PFF Manning ranks 55th out of 84 safties. That's $6 mil a year cap hit for a position that doesn't rank in the top 50%.
I'm OK with it.
If Unitas/Montana/Emmit/Rice can be traded or let go then I'm OK with AJ leaving. This is what teams that are good at cap management do. It's the reason future HOFer Ed Reed is a Texan today.