Questions I have. Anybody have the answers?

[texasguy346]

I can't trust your judgment then. Spencer destroyed his man on one of the TD runs...just pure dominance. He had several 'take out' blocks...he looks like the real deal to me. I'll point you to some of the plays later when I go over all the possessions.

Put me down as one who thinks Spencer is the "real deal" too. He looked a lot better out there than Winston did IMO, but that's not to say Winston played poorly. Spencer just played like he'd been in the league 3 or 4 seasons instead of playing like a rookie in his first taste of the NFL. He was dominant and he showed excellent strength. IMO he reminded me of Willie Roaf out there, and I know that's high praise but I think Spencer deserves it. He's bound to stumble once and again early in his career, but I think once he gets a chance to start in this leauge he's never going to relinquish the role.

 

[chameleon_ds]

That's great news! If he can dance on the head of a pin, his knee must be fine!

go texans

 

[Double Barrel]

Kubiak liked the way Seth played and he liked the way Spencer played. It's a good problem to have. Personally, I see Spencer seeing a lot of action at LT this season and eventually becoming the starter. It's just a matter of when.

Interesting... Thanks for the insight. This is a position battle that I'll definitely watch as the season progresses.

 

[edo783]

IIRC, Wand is signed to a one year contract. If Spence winds up winning the LT spot, do we then go after Seth for real quality depth? The next question would be, would he take it or would some other team scoop him up as a starter?

 

[Runner]

IIRC, Wand is signed to a one year contract. If Spence winds up winning the LT spot, do we then go after Seth for real quality depth? The next question would be, would he take it or would some other team scoop him up as a starter?

To answer your question, if Seth does well this year and is still beaten out as a starter, another team would be sure to bid up for an LT that has performed well. They aren’t that easy to find.

However…..

All interesting conjecture, but what if **gasp** Wand remains the starter? He hasn’t been replaced yet despite frequent and sometimes obstinate reports to the contrary.

First he wasn’t going to make the team, then he’d be a back-up, then it was an experiment with him on first team, then he wouldn’t make it through OTAs as first string. There were similar predictions for training camp, pre-season, and the season. He continues to prove the nay sayers wrong.

He has been labeled a quitter and worse, but I see a guy fighting through adversity to continue his pursuit – and succeeding. Isn’t that what people want to see? Why is he a quitter and not a fighter?

Yes Spencer has done well. I’m glad we have him! Well, Seth played against the starters and did well. Spencer played against weaker opponents. The level of competition seems to be valid in the Carr/Rosenfels debate; it should apply here equally. Why do so many people grudgingly admit Seth “didn’t suck” rather than say “he played well”? We all assume Spencer will continue to get better, but so will Wand.

Maybe it’s time to let go of the Pendry-like negative connotations for Wand.

My rant is over for now. Sorry.

 

[Hulk75]

I can't trust your judgment then. Spencer destroyed his man on one of the TD runs...just pure dominance. He had several 'take out' blocks...he looks like the real deal to me. I'll point you to some of the plays later when I go over all the possessions.

Darn right Vinny I saw the same thing.

I watched Spencer and the guy IS a beast. Great feet from such a big guy. And has a lot of power, just wait untill he gets a year of NFL workouts and games under his belt.

And I do believe that Wand could lose his job, IF he cant pass protect better. I bet Charles starts the 1st game.

The drag that Carr hit Moulds on, he had to shrug off the DE cause he was pushed back so far into Carr. Wand just gives up too much room when he is pass blocking that is what I see from him. He cant let guys have that big of a head start at him, sooooo many moves a DE can do if given too much room.

 

[Texans Horror]

I feel ya, dawg. I like keeping up with the o-line, and Wand vs. the world seems to be the biggest conflict since about...forever. Second only to Carr vs. the world.

My own personal theory, and it's just a theory, mind you, is that early negativity was coming from people who were bitter about Pitts not being the LT. They were so adament, I figured they were Pitts' relatives. But once it became clear Pitts was going to be starting LG (and a fine one, too, I might add), then other people on the board started crying for Spencer to replace Wand. This just seems to be the "want a newer model" variety of opinion and less the "he's my brother/uncle/whatever so you are all jerks for thinking otherwise" variety of argument. In the end, it has been fun to watch the evolution of "Wand-haters."

Eventually, though, Runner, they will be right. Cause one day, Wand will retire/go to another team. And all the haters will say "told you so. I knew he wasn't good enough." In the meantime, I am going to sit back, relax, and watch some great football.

 

[Runner]

And I do believe that Wand could lose his job, IF he cant pass protect better. I bet Charles starts the 1st game.

Spencer certainly might beat Wand out. Make no mistake - I think Spencer is pretty darn good with a very high ceiling. The first game is pretty soon though - bold prediction.

-----------------------------------

If Spencer is the starter, and "the speed rusher who gives Spencer trouble right now" in the guise of Dwight Freeney takes him for 3 sacks in the first Colts game, then is Spencer our new bust and we have to start calling for Winston? I just want to be able to keep up.

 

[Hulk75]

Spencer certainly might beat Wand out. Make no mistake - I think Spencer is pretty darn good with a very high ceiling. The first game is pretty soon though - bold prediction.

-----------------------------------

If Spencer is the starter, and "the speed rusher who gives Spencer trouble right now" in the guise of Dwight Freeney takes him for 3 sacks in the first Colts game, then is Spencer our new bust and we have to start calling for Winston? I just want to be able to keep up.

What if he does not?

 

[Runner]

What if he does not?

That would be cool.

I'm just pointing out people may have some unrealistic expectations for the 3rd round rookie. The board does not handle disappointment in a player well, even if the expectations are unrealistic.

 

[thunderkyss]

Look, I'll definitely watch the game again...... but right now, I stand by what I said. Both Winston and Spencer looked like rookies, and the game was moving too fast for them. I think they were both working Very hard trying to keep up against 2nds & 3rds....... Spencer is clearly ahead of Winston, which doesn't say much for Winston, when he's playing the less demanding role.

They both did well........ for rookies...... but right now, I wouldn't put Spencer against Umenyiora, Freeny, Seymour, Charles Grant, or John Abraham.

OK....... I watched the game again..... when I made the post I just quoted, I had Spencer rated as an 8, and Winston as a 7.... They both know what they are doing.... they move well, they're athletic enough, so far, not to get beat...... they appear to be strong enough to keep their man in front of them. They appear to be playing like solid second stringers. But I thought Spencer was a little closer to starting. Especially, if Wand doesn't please Kubiak.

Now, I'm seeing an even bigger gap between Spencer and Wand, & I don't see Spencer starting this year for any reason other than an injury to Wand, and maybe even Salaam.

Don't take this to mean they both suck, I think they'll be great eventually. But Wand looked even better the second time I watched the game.

#1, I don't see this mean streak or this domination by Spencer.. almost everytime he tried to cut block someone, that someone avoided it, and Spencer was left on the ground eating turf. This Happened on his very first play from scrimmage.... he was the beached Whale that Lundy tripped over and Rosenfels pass hit the ground.

#2 when he attacked the linebackers, once he more or less just touched the LB, and stayed between the LB & the ball carrier....... didn't blow him up, didn't put him on the ground, didn't move him out of the way. On another occassion, he put his head down, and missed, another was the missed cutblock mentioned earlier..... of which I think there were 4 alltogether. Once, he did make good contact with a linebacker........ he stunned him, but didn't go to the ground.

#3..... Our offensive line only committed one penalty the whole game....... illegal formation...... offense......#77...... no holding...... no false starts... really that's a good thing.

#4 Only once, did I see Spencer actually push the rusher away from the QB..... it was only one push, and it was a really good push.. but on most every play, the rusher.....#72 most of the time just ran himself out of the play...... But OwenDaniels did just as well blocking him..... that's not a negative on Spencer.... except that #72(Curtis Mitchell??) had a lot more to do with Spencer looking good than Spencer did.

When the run was coming his way...... he did fine... hell, he did great. But when the line moved the other way, and he was supposed to block the guy who lines up on the OG......... well, let's just say he was a little late. Twice, that guy was the guy who stopped Taylor for a short gain.

Just looking at his size..... the way he moves.... and his hustle, I have no doubt he'll be a starter in this league........ & if Kubiak says he has the potential to be one of the best, I believe him.... But I just don't see him starting this year.

 

[thunderkyss]

Befor I give you a bad rep. I'll give you a chnce to reconsider this. Spencer Stoned his man at the end of the first half, 95 % of the time. Don't know what you were watching sweet pea, but it wasn't Spencer. Oh by the way, Spencer and the tightend...rolled up... read put a collar on him and made him their B*&tch, the RDE on the lundi strecth play at the 3:29 mark of the first half. Yeah not impressive at all.

This was the 17 yard run by Lundy(eyeballin it)....... I have it marked as one of Spencers good plays...... He knocked down Clint Mitchell..... and as the momentum of the line was going that way, he actually tripped on Mitchell.

& I'm not saying I wasn't impressed with the kid..... I am. Just that the talk on the board coming our of training camp was that Spencer was really close. & with Winston being a 1st round prospect, and Spencer picking up beter and faster than him..... I expected to see someone who could start for a number of NFL teams by the first of the season.

Right now, I'm just not seeing it.

But...... it was only one game..... I may change my mind come Saturday..

 

[thunderkyss]

Darn right Vinny I saw the same thing.

The drag that Carr hit Moulds on, he had to shrug off the DE cause he was pushed back so far into Carr. Wand just gives up too much room when he is pass blocking that is what I see from him. He cant let guys have that big of a head start at him, sooooo many moves a DE can do if given too much room.

It is true, that Jared Allen got a couple of Fingers in Carr's Jersey...... but that was the only play Wand gave up so much ground on..... I think it's going to take time for him to find out how far Carr will drop back... he was way behind the LOS... and of course he's got to judge the strength and speed of the DE, and adjust his technique accordingly.

 

[aj.]

It is true, that Jared Allen got a couple of Fingers in Carr's Jersey...... but that was the only play Wand gave up so much ground on..... I think it's going to take time for him to find out how far Carr will drop back... he was way behind the LOS... and of course he's got to judge the strength and speed of the DE, and adjust his technique accordingly.

1. Look at the Lundy TD run - the endzone replay - and watch what Allen does to Wand (although it was away from the cutback and not really a major factor in the play). To his credit, Wand get's in Allen's way for a split second, but I don't think the one-on-one outcome was as desired.

2. Wand has several NFL starts. Pocket depth is pretty much established in any system whether it's a 3, 5, or 7 step drop. I think Wand should know where the QB is by now and the angles to take for drive-by's. Carr has to learn to step up as well but on the play in question, Wand gave up too much inside angle.

Kubiak said publicly that Wand played well and that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean he played a perfect game or that fans can't critique things that catch their eye.

 

[thunderkyss]

1. Look at the Lundy TD run - the endzone replay - and watch what Allen does to Wand (although it was away from the cutback and not really a major factor in the play). To his credit, Wand get's in Allen's way for a split second, but I don't think the one-on-one outcome was as desired.

NO question, Wand made mistakes as well.

2. Wand has several NFL starts. Pocket depth is pretty much established in any system whether it's a 3, 5, or 7 step drop. I think Wand should know where the QB is by now and the angles to take for drive-by's. Carr has to learn to step up as well but on the play in question, Wand gave up too much inside angle.

I could have sworn we already agreed we had bad coaching last year..... or are you one of those guys who believe only our QB coach sucked??

Kubiak said publicly that Wand played well and that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean he played a perfect game or that fans can't critique things that catch their eye.

I completely agree......

 

[Runner]

Kubiak said publicly that Wand played well and that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean he played a perfect game or that fans can't critique things that catch their eye.

For Wand or any player, fair evaluations - criticism and praise - carry a lot more weight for me. I don't think anyone played a perfect game, and I don't think anyone has blown every play in training camp and during the game. I find it hard to take seriously the opinions of posters who make blanket statements of pure hyperbole and get defensive when they are called on it.

Examples of this abound - exaggeration kills a lot of good threads around here. A simple, valid criticism of Carr usually sets off a 10 pages thread of redundant posts because many want him to be considered perfect, just as does a post saying our past four years of frustration are all Carr’s fault. The truth is somewhere in the vast middle ground.

Another example – the board’s hive mind can’t even agree if Mario was double teamed for his 13 plays last Saturday. I’ve seen a lot of “he was always double teamed” posts and a few “he was never double teamed” posts. Words like always and never set off warning flags to me – the truth again is somewhere in the middle, and posts that acknowledge that are more accurate.

I was glad to see some posts that got away from pre-conceived notions after the first game. For instance, TJ got some praise for his play – he certainly exceeded my expectations, which weren’t very high to start with.

I’ll take thoughtful analysis over knee jerk opinion any time.

 

[aj.]

I could have sworn we already agreed we had bad coaching last year..... or are you one of those guys who believe only our QB coach sucked??

My point was that by now, Wand should have a pretty good idea where the pocket is, and how someone playing his position needs to adjust for speed, power, and angles. This is his fourth year. He had 16 starts in '04. He started 36 games in college.

Are you saying that any poor performance can be blamed on bad coaching during a previous regime? Does his on-field experience and ojt - especially those 16 games in '04 - not count for anything? What about the things he does well? I suppose that's all because of what Sherman has done with him over the last 3 1/2 months and nothing else?

Obviously Kubiak and Co. saw enough good things on film from prior years to stick him in at left tackle from the first day of OTAs. (personally I think Spencer takes his job at some point during the season but that's another thread).

At some point it comes down to the player having the mental and physical capacity to perform effectively and consistently over time. If Seth was a really good left tackle, he wouldn't have a rookie 3rd round draft choice breathing down his neck for the job.

Again, I'm glad there seems to be legit competition for that job for the first time in 5 years. I want Wand and Spencer both to do well over there because if they do, that means Carr will be able to focus more on the things he needs to focus on...

 

[thunderkyss]

My point was that by now, Wand should have a pretty good idea where the pocket is, and how someone playing his position needs to adjust for speed, power, and angles. This is his fourth year. He had 16 starts in '04. He started 36 games in college.

Are you saying that any poor performance can be blamed on bad coaching during a previous regime?

NO, I made a poor argument.

but where the pocket was on that play..... ?? I don't know... for all I know, David took 7 big steps, instead of 7 steps...... he was setting up pretty far back there....... Maybe it was Wands mistake?? I don't believe it was....... Maybe Seth took the wrong angle, and had to compensate...

what are we talking about??

 

[Runner]

but where the pocket was on that play..... ?? I don't know... for all I know, David took 7 big steps, instead of 7 steps...... he was setting up pretty far back there....... Maybe it was Wands mistake?? I don't believe it was....... Maybe Seth took the wrong angle, and had to compensate...

After reviewing film, comments from the boards, and other evidence from secret files ( ), I have come to this conclusion:

Wand got pushed back too far on that play.

Sometimes the simple answer is the correct one. Every player on the team gets beat at one time or another - they are competing against exceptional athletes on the other team too . Perfection might be expected, but the occasional mistake should be understandable.