Question? Babin and Peek
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HoustonTexansAreTheBest
Waterboy
I have no clue, but that's what I've been hearing. Babin and Peek on the Outside with Foreman and Sharper on the inside. Not bad.
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
What they mean is Peek/Babin on the outside, with Wong at Foremans spot and Foreman on the bench. I could see it happening, would Peek have to do a lot of coverage from the LOLB position? I think he has the athleticism and he's probably been working on that in practice but would he be effective there considering he was supposed to be our ROLB pass rusher?
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
Good point aj...If that scenario did happen though, what do you think the Texans could get if they tried to trade him?
travfrancis
Waterboy
^ fiddy that is a awesome avator
i think we are going to see babin - foreman - sharper - wong
and then on 3rd down/obvious pass situations we will see babin at de and peek at olb, isnt that what cass said?
i think we are going to see babin - foreman - sharper - wong
and then on 3rd down/obvious pass situations we will see babin at de and peek at olb, isnt that what cass said?
thebigtrip
Practice Squad
I don't see what's so bad about Foreman, his numbers aren't bad.
rittenhouserobz
Veteran
I would like to see it go
Peek-Wong-Sharper-Babin in the base set. I honestly don't think we lose much with Foreman in there either.
Peek-Wong-Sharper-Babin in the base set. I honestly don't think we lose much with Foreman in there either.
Scooter
Funky
IMO peek hasnt earned that spot yet. orr played better than peek did. as much as i'd like to see foreman on the bench, i dont think peek, orr, or babin can beat out foreman or wong ... yet. maybe later or next season they can push a veteran out of a job, but none has earned that yet.
CaptainPatriot
Waterboy
How about Shantee Orr ? He ran down Vick last yr!cap1 said:
Looks like he has some good upside
cap1
Rookie
CaptainPatriot said:
I wouldn't mind seeing Shantee Orr out there if he is better than Peek this year. At least now we have about 6 LBs that can play (Sharper, Wong, Foreman, Peek, Orr, Babins). Unlike 3 last year (Sharper, Foremen, & Wong. Peek and Orr were just too raw last year).
On a side note who are the back up ILBs?
Number19
Hall of Fame
Come on! You base your starting lineup on how much the players are making? No way! You play your best player, period. The question is: how well can can Peek or Babin cover and how important is coverage skills to Casserly's defensive game plan? Peek is purely a converted DE. Babin has played some at LB. If Babin's coverage skills are adequate, and his pass rush skills are superior to Wong's, my guess is that we'll see Peek on the weak side and Babin on the strong side, with Wong maybe moving inside. It is equally likely that Babin will get a year of seasoning by playing the weak side with Wong staying on the strong side. This decision will be one of the more important highlights of training camp.aj. said:
My guess is that in his 1st pro year, Peek has more coverage experience than Babin has had in his career at Western Michigan. Counting training camp, exhibition games, 8 or 9 regular season games, and all of the practices - Peek should be well ahead of Babin in terms of both zone & man coverage. I know SteelBlue may not agree with meNumber19 said:
, but I thought Peek showed a lot of upside in regards to coverage last season. But I think Peek will have to show the Texans very early on that he's ready to win the LOLB spot before the Texans move Wong inside.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I admit I am much better judging linemen than I am judging linebackers for some reason. I just do not have as intuitive a feel for their position it seems. I think Peek has tremendous skills, but I think he needed to grow up last year. Dom Capers just may be the perfect coach for him. Dom is patient, knows how to relay his thoughts on why discipline is important, and linebackers all seem to play their best under him. I think if Peek comes back more mature and wiser, we may see something special. Capers and Casserly have both stated it takes about 3 years for a DE "tweener" to reach is full skill set as they mature into 3-4 OLB's. Players show their biggest jump in improvement from year one to year two, so I am willing to support Peek, and give him a clean slate as a fan. He seems like a nice enough guy. Lord knows he has ability. Let's see if Capers can harness it.Lucky said:I know SteelBlue may not agree with me
Number19
Hall of Fame
I agree; what it boils down to is whether Babin has more natural talent and ability in this area and how fast he can adapt these to the pro game. We paid a high price for him and I should hope he has the advantage of Peek. And having just written this and having reviewed your response, I realize you are considering that Peek may be the player for the left side. I hadn't thought this, but it does represent a posibility. Any way you line them up, I hope both Peek and Babin have the capability of winning a starting spot and giving the Texans two 10+ sack seasons.Lucky said:
Vinny
shiny happy fan
I keep seeing "high price". We only gave up a one first day pick to have two first rounders. Sure, its a first day pick, but we received a 1st round selection.
I think that the Titans were going to trade down regardless. If we did not trade with them, they would have found someone else. If we do not make this move we are stuck with a lower quality edge rusher instead of the pick of the litter. We had an extra 4th from CC's previous deals, so we really only missed a pick in the 3rd round. A lot of people seem to consider a few second day picks "a high price to pay".... I'm not sure I can get onboard with that kind of thinking. Just look at the history of the NFL draft. 2nd day picks are no sure things whatsoever.
I think that the Titans were going to trade down regardless. If we did not trade with them, they would have found someone else. If we do not make this move we are stuck with a lower quality edge rusher instead of the pick of the litter. We had an extra 4th from CC's previous deals, so we really only missed a pick in the 3rd round. A lot of people seem to consider a few second day picks "a high price to pay".... I'm not sure I can get onboard with that kind of thinking. Just look at the history of the NFL draft. 2nd day picks are no sure things whatsoever.
gsbtxn
Waterboy
I thought we had paid a high price when I first heard of the deal, but after analyzing it, I think it will end up being a great move. While depth is important, I'd rather have a stud starting and then worry about depth than have more second-tier guys for depth and no stand out to start.
Number19
Hall of Fame
It all depends on how he turns out. I know the Texan organization had him rated highly and it seems that maybe a few other teams also did. But could he have been gotten with our 40 pick? We'll never know. Value is relative; what I put a high price on, you may not. But in my opinion, we did "pay a high price" - we paid as if he is a #1 talent. The question, which only time will tell, is : Will he turn out to be worth the "high price"? Now, I like the prospects of this player and I think that just maybe he will turn out to be worth the price; but this is no more assured than the 2nd day picks you mentioned.SteelBlue said:
he should be starting at one of the OLB spots...i would like to see Peek start at the other one or be in heavy rotation with wong...i would like to see us keep babin in everydown to help him develop into the player capers wants him to be...but hey it's all capers team...he'll run it the way he wants to
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Well, of course we valued him as a first round pick. Thats were we picked him. My point is simple, if you look back at the history of the NFL draft, and see the success rate of guys picked at 71 and 103 as opposed to one of the top 30 guys selected each year, I just don't seem to understand the "paid a high cost" argument. Regardless of what we perceive, we both want the same thing; we both want our picks to be good picks. It is no more complex than that. I will judge this draft by what I see on the field. I doubt there are a handful of Texans fans that saw a single snap of Western Michigan Football last year. It will all unfold soon enough.Number19 said:
TexasAggie
Noob
2002 Draft......................................Last roster Play for
3rd (83).. Charles Hill DT....................Chicago Bears
6..... Howard Green DT................New Orleans Saints
7.... Greg White L.....................Washington Redskins
7 ..... Ahmad Miller DT.....................out
UDFA... Jimmy McClain LB....................Jax Jags
UDFA... Rashod Kent TE....................Just released by Texans
2003
6.... Drew Henson QB..................Cowboys F/ 2005 3rd pick
6 .. . Kieth Wright DT....................Indy Colts
7... Chance Pierce LS...................out
UDFA... Jason Davis DT...................TEXANS
UDFA... Terrance Martin DT...............TEXANS
This is not a complete list of rookie players for Houston, but I think it shows
that good players or players capable of being in the NFL for one reason or another get cut by one team due to schemes as well as talent level of the competion of the remaining players on the teams. My point being that we lost a 3rd and 4th round pick that probably would have made the team but not necessarily been keepers. JMO.
3rd (83).. Charles Hill DT....................Chicago Bears
6..... Howard Green DT................New Orleans Saints
7.... Greg White L.....................Washington Redskins
7 ..... Ahmad Miller DT.....................out
UDFA... Jimmy McClain LB....................Jax Jags
UDFA... Rashod Kent TE....................Just released by Texans
2003
6.... Drew Henson QB..................Cowboys F/ 2005 3rd pick
6 .. . Kieth Wright DT....................Indy Colts
7... Chance Pierce LS...................out
UDFA... Jason Davis DT...................TEXANS
UDFA... Terrance Martin DT...............TEXANS
This is not a complete list of rookie players for Houston, but I think it shows
that good players or players capable of being in the NFL for one reason or another get cut by one team due to schemes as well as talent level of the competion of the remaining players on the teams. My point being that we lost a 3rd and 4th round pick that probably would have made the team but not necessarily been keepers. JMO.
Good point,T/A As I pointed out in another post , the Lions traded the Browns 2nd round pick acquired when they switched 1st round picks,2004 4th and 2005 5th for KC's 1st round pick. I believe KC's 1st was before Titans' 1st . IMO, we gave up more draft value. Still, I like Babin. ( too late to cry about it!) 
Just for fun, let's take a look at what this trade would look like (from 97-01)
1997
#27 - Rae Carruth Panthers WR
for
#40 - Dexter McCleon Rams DB
#71 - Duce Staley Eagles RB
#103 - Pete Monty Giants LB
1998
#27 - Victor Riley Chiefs T
for
#40 - Cameron Cleeland Saints TE
#71 - E.G. Green Colts WR
#103 - Omar Brown Falcons CB
1999
#27 - Aaron Gibson Lions T
for
#40 - Tony Bryant Raiders DE
#71 - D'Wayne Bates Bears WR
#103 - Sedrick Irvin Lions RB
2000
#27 - Anthony Becht Jets TE
for
#40 - Ian Gold Broncos OLB
#71 - Darwin Walker Cardinals DT
#103 - Danny Farmer Steelers WR
2001
#27 - Michael Bennett Vikings RB
for
#40 - Ken Lucas Seahawks CB
#71 - Bhawoh Jue Packers CB
#103 - Karon Riley Bears DE
1997 would certainly go in favor of the team that traded down because they got 2 quality players. Forget that Carruth is a scumbag, he wasn't a very good player,either.
1998 would be a wash as both Riley & Cleeland were disappointments to the teams that drafted them. Green & Brown have been out of the league for awhile.
1999 would be a wash since all of the players have disappointed.
2000 would give the edge to the team that traded down. Both Gold and Becht have become starters, but Gold gets the nod. Walker has become a solid tackloe, but he was cut quickly by the Cards.
2001 would certainly go in favor of the team that traded up. Lucas is a sometime starter and the other guys are hanging on as reserves. But when healthy, Bennett is an impact runner.
So what have we learned? Not much except that it's usually the team that takes the best player in the #27 or #40 slot that wins the trade. The extra picks usually have no impact. The trade this year is likely a winner or loser solely based on whether Babin becomes an impact player. Casserly & Capers believe he is, and their job security rides on these types of decisions. My money says that they're right, and I'm saving a little extra for playoff tickets this year.
1997
#27 - Rae Carruth Panthers WR
for
#40 - Dexter McCleon Rams DB
#71 - Duce Staley Eagles RB
#103 - Pete Monty Giants LB
1998
#27 - Victor Riley Chiefs T
for
#40 - Cameron Cleeland Saints TE
#71 - E.G. Green Colts WR
#103 - Omar Brown Falcons CB
1999
#27 - Aaron Gibson Lions T
for
#40 - Tony Bryant Raiders DE
#71 - D'Wayne Bates Bears WR
#103 - Sedrick Irvin Lions RB
2000
#27 - Anthony Becht Jets TE
for
#40 - Ian Gold Broncos OLB
#71 - Darwin Walker Cardinals DT
#103 - Danny Farmer Steelers WR
2001
#27 - Michael Bennett Vikings RB
for
#40 - Ken Lucas Seahawks CB
#71 - Bhawoh Jue Packers CB
#103 - Karon Riley Bears DE
1997 would certainly go in favor of the team that traded down because they got 2 quality players. Forget that Carruth is a scumbag, he wasn't a very good player,either.
1998 would be a wash as both Riley & Cleeland were disappointments to the teams that drafted them. Green & Brown have been out of the league for awhile.
1999 would be a wash since all of the players have disappointed.
2000 would give the edge to the team that traded down. Both Gold and Becht have become starters, but Gold gets the nod. Walker has become a solid tackloe, but he was cut quickly by the Cards.
2001 would certainly go in favor of the team that traded up. Lucas is a sometime starter and the other guys are hanging on as reserves. But when healthy, Bennett is an impact runner.
So what have we learned? Not much except that it's usually the team that takes the best player in the #27 or #40 slot that wins the trade. The extra picks usually have no impact. The trade this year is likely a winner or loser solely based on whether Babin becomes an impact player. Casserly & Capers believe he is, and their job security rides on these types of decisions. My money says that they're right, and I'm saving a little extra for playoff tickets this year.
From what I saw last year, Peek isn't good enough against the run to play the strong side in place of Wong. He's a good rusher, is super mobile and great in pursuit but he can't hold ground like you need the strong side backer to do. I don't see Foreman going anywhere this year, bench or otherwise. The good news is that we finally have some depth at LB. Heck, Charlie Clemons could end up backing up Foreman. Troy Evans is much better at special teams than Charlie, however.
Number19
Hall of Fame
The write up on Babin says he shows strength against the run but does not effectively take on blockers at the point of attack. His weight room strength does not translate to the football field and he'd rather elude blockers than take them on heads up. Hopeful this can be improved upon with coaching.
clandestin
Waterboy
babin projects better to ROLB in our defense, in comparison the LOLB is more of a traditional type of linebacker as they will play pass protection on the TE and occasionally drop into zone in the flats. That's not to say that LOLB never put their hand down on the line and rush, but they do it less so then the ROLB.
HoustonTexansAreTheBest
Waterboy
Lamar Lathon (sp?), he used to be my favorite LB. I've been a fan of the Texans, but I've been a fan of Capers much longer since his Carolina Panther Days.
clandestin
Waterboy
Yep Greene played on the left side, probably due to the fact that Lathon was the larger of the two (lathon was around 270 give or take, where as greene was about 20 pounds lighter.)Mistril48 said:
I didn't mean to indicate that the two OLB spots are mutually exclusive, but with babin playing at 260-280 and Wong (and Peek) being significantly lighter I see ROLB as his likely spot. I also think that it may be easier for babin to make the transition with fewer coverage responsibilities.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If the poorer cover LB is on the right side, why wouldn't teams simply line up their TEs on the right? Isn't the real distinction between the strong and weak side and not the right and the left? Someone please explain why the ROLB would be needed less in coverage.
clandestin
Waterboy
that's a bit like asking 'why is a LT valued more then a RT?' Generally, the 'strong side' is the right side of the field (left side for defense.) The key word being generally. From an offensive perspective, if you had a franchise LT why would you line up the TE over him while leaving your RT 'on an island' on a passing play. That's not to say it doesn't happen; it is all a big chess game after all. Again, I'm not saying that a player can only be a LOLB or a ROLB it's just the finer points of the position that I'm thinking about.dalemurphy said: