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Profootball Weekly on Texans Moves

Most of the is true, but its kind of hard to say what the team is going to look like before the draft and the June 1st cuts. I mean, we could trade up to get DJ and get a guy like Reggie Brown in the draft and there go two of the biggest issues in that article.
 
Yea, when you look at our situation from the "glass is half empty" perspective
you have a whole slew of issues to deal with. To the list we could add:
still a lot of uncertainty about our TE situation and DD though good still has
very dubious durability. We have a whole bunch of needs to take care of in
this draft.
 
I know Jeff Reynolds is an "associate editor" at Pro Football Weekly and so his "thoughts on the hottest topics in the NFL" are supposed to be newsworthy but I didn't find this all that informative.

It looked like a series of "blinding flash of the obvious" points. Yes the Texans let two of their starting linebackers walk out the door. Anyone could have pointed that out. What he didn't bother to mention was that Antwan Peek is in fact a difference maker and it looks like he's going to get to play on the outside this year while Wong moves inside. "The Babin, Greenwood, Wong, and Peek" group is going to make some heads turn. That's a young, fast, and aggressive group of players. Babin will be in year two and should improve, Greenwood is easily I think an upgrade over Foreman and Wong can give us what Sharper did in the middle. Peek is going to bring the sacks.

I'd like to see the Texans do something dramatic and move up to grab DJ but if they don't that's fine. The group they have right now, with a bit of depth added should be able to do the job well.

He (Reynolds) is closer on the mark about the defensive line. As much as I think moving up to get DJ would be cool deep down I know we need some quality d-line depth badly. After our starters we have a bunch of guys I collectively think of as "The Floppers". It seems like when they're in there it's someone flopping over and then limping off the field every three or four plays. Maybe that's just leftover 2003 memories but I very much think we need a good defensive lineman in this draft on day one if he's there.

Then they go an talk about everyones favorite whipping boy Seth Wand. He points out the failed Orlando Pace deal like that was our only hope of being able to protect Carr in 2005 but he's wrong. Wand is going to surprise a lot of people next year, mark my words on that. He was going to be a two year project and he got into the starters spot one year early by busting his rear and working hard. Does anyone think he's not aware of the criticism since he took over the LT spot? I predict that Wand is going to be one of the most motivated Texans in camp again and he's going to be a high quality LT in this league for years to come.

Will he be Orlando Pace good? Well, no almost certainly not. 31 teams make do without Orlando Pace on their line and most of them do just fine. The Texans made a serious move to get Pace down here but what they didn't do really stands out. They didn't lift a finger to try and get anyone else. They aren't in a panic over Seth Wand and neither should we (or Pro Football Weekly) be in one. The only guy they tried to get to replace Wand just happened to be the best LT in the game.

I'll be surprised if they draft Barron with their first round pick too. I think Seth Wand at the start of 2005 is going to be a better LT than Alex Barron will be until at least 2007. If their original assessment of Wand was correct he may always be a better LT than Alex Barron.

The Texans are going to be fine and are in fact much further along than many people out there believe. A lot of people in here don't realize how good the Texans are going to be in 2005 as well.
 
I think the majority of writers and fans try to find quick fix solutions. The last game of the season really put a bad taste in alot of people's mouth because our Oline didn't show at all. So naturally we say, gotta get Olineman. Well they went for the best in the game, didn't come up with that and now will look for the draft where really there is not significant upgrade there and you can get that in the later rounds.

I thought that he failed to realize the LB corp may have suffered because they just didn't adapt to a 3-4 scheme.
 
The key to assessing the Texas posture on Wand is the fact that they didn't pursue multiple FA Tackles. In my estimation, if they were worried about Wand they would have made overtures to other Tackles. The only Tackle they pursued is an eventual Hall of Famer (arguably, but I'd consider it likely Pace goes in), so if they were all worried about the LT they didn’t show it by who they looked at in the FA period. Some people have mused that Pace used the Texans, but Casserly could have used Pace as well. Seems like half the NFL world has totally bought into the fact that we are down on Wand. Looking closer, I don’t buy it.

I think it is a safer bet that the Texans take a young Tackle but will do it later in the first day. I still can’t see T at 13 because I think the team has more confidence in Wand than the fans do. Charlie said it himself that we started Wand one year too early in retrospect. I think it is smart to have two young (quality) Tackles on the team. Free Agents are expensive and a guy like Barnes or Britt (or a few others perhaps) would beat out Spears and improve our depth one way or another. Whoever wins the LT spot would have a good young reserve to back them up.
 
Hervoyel said:
...If their original assessment of Wand was correct he may always be a better LT than Alex Barron.
Click to expand...
Huh? The Texans took Wand in the 3rd round as a small school project. The Texans may or may not consider Barron @13 in this draft, but they would certainly rank him above a 3rd round pick (as would every other team in the league).

Regarding the Texans current assessment of Wand, it doesn't look too favorable. The Texans were willing to give big bucks & a 1st round pick for Pace, a solution to the problem at LT. That they didn't throw money at overpriced FA's like Jonas Jennings is more an indictment on this class of free agent linemen than a confirmation of Wand’s ability.

Here are the facts:
Wand allowed more sacks than any other lineman in the NFL.
At one point in the season, Wand was replaced by long time scrub Marcus Spears on passing downs.
The Texans gave best effort in trying to obtain one of the top 3 LT’s in football.

The Texans may or may not draft a LT prospect in this draft. If not, it’s more likely due to difference in talent they perceive between those prospects and players at other positions. In the Texans estimation, a statement on what’s available. Not an affirmation of Seth Wand’s talent & production.
 
Lucky said:
Huh? The Texans took Wand in the 3rd round as a small school project. The Texans may or may not consider Barron @13 in this draft, but they would certainly rank him above a 3rd round pick (as would every other team in the league).
Click to expand...


The Texans took Wand in the third round and knew he was a project and not a short term one either. They saw great potential there but they expected him to take a few years to reach it. I don't think anyone disputes this Lucky. Wand worked hard and got himself into a starting position much earlier than anyone expected and, apparently in retrospect much earlier than the Texans now think was best. I'm sure some of this was Wand working hard and some of it was desire on the Texans part to get Chester Pitts started at his eventual home, LG.

It doesn't change the fact though that regardless of where Wand and Barron were (or will be) picked in the draft IF Wand pays off he may become a better LT than Barron. It's a possibility, that's all I'm saying. Barron could end up being a bust, Wand could end up going to the Pro Bowl someday. It could turn out the other way around. Nobody knows how it's going to turn out.
 
Hervoyel said:
The Texans took Wand in the third round and knew he was a project and not a short term one either. They saw great potential there but they expected him to take a few years to reach it. I don't think anyone disputes this Lucky. Wand worked hard and got himself into a starting position much earlier than anyone expected and, apparently in retrospect much earlier than the Texans now think was best. I'm sure some of this was Wand working hard and some of it was desire on the Texans part to get Chester Pitts started at his eventual home, LG.

It doesn't change the fact though that regardless of where Wand and Barron were (or will be) picked in the draft IF Wand pays off he may become a better LT than Barron. It's a possibility, that's all I'm saying. Barron could end up being a bust, Wand could end up going to the Pro Bowl someday. It could turn out the other way around. Nobody knows how it's going to turn out.
Click to expand...
Wand was thrown to the lions, so to speak, and by accounts, a year too early. If you trust C & C's original assessment of Wand's potential, he certainly should have learned more last year starting than he would have not starting. Last year's experience should pay off in the long run.
 
Im with Vinny on this one. If we really felt that Wand was an issue... we would have taken steps to find an LT in FA. Yah we tried to get Pace but he is the ONLY guy we went for. It is HIGHLY unlikely that we plan on replacing Wand in the draft this year.. Im not sure how many LTs have started at LT in their first year.. but im pretty sure its a very very small number. You draft an LT to replace your current LT EVENTUALLY.. not immediatly.

I think a middle round OT is a possibility.. though I think middle round interior linemen are a bigger possibility.


I also beleive the Texans have more confidence in Wand than the fans. If you watch the games again.. Wand really didnt show any crippling weaknesses.. he showed that he is still raw, but he didnt do anything that convinced me he couldnt be a good LT. We have been high on Wand since we got him.. he has had all the intagibles and we have been grooming him to be our starting LT.. I dont think having a rough first season is enough for us to throw in the towel on him. If anything.. we are going to find other ways to take some pressure off him. Either through changing up our blocking schemes a bit, to give him some more help.. or lining up Joppru next to him regularly.. or (as we have already done) using more timing patterns/routes so that the ball gets out of Carr's hands quicker.

Barron at #13 just doesnt do anything for me.. Wade is solid at RT.. and Wand still looks promising at LT... that means, if anything, we need guards and center.. and we can get some high quality interior olinemen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in this draft.
 
all i have to say on the issue is this...no one is this years draft at the tackle position will come in and do better than wand this year...look at next years draft...you have ferguson, scott, winston, whitworth, and many others that would be ahead of barron and barnes this year if they came out early...if we get barron i won't surprised but i won't be surprised if we passed on him either...if he's the bpa then take him if you don't like him trade down and get more picks...if you ask me we are targetting a OT in this years draft his name is adam terry of sryacuse...capers has gone to his pro day and has had personal interviews with him...i think he's our 2nd round pick...he'll come in and back up both wand and wade...and next year might battle wand for the starting LT position if we don't grab one of the other guys i previously mentioned
 
Lucky said:
Regarding the Texans current assessment of Wand, it doesn't look too favorable. The Texans were willing to give big bucks & a 1st round pick for Pace, a solution to the problem at LT. That they didn't throw money at overpriced FA's like Jonas Jennings is more an indictment on this class of free agent linemen than a confirmation of Wand’s ability.
Click to expand...
Since we almost got thru the FA period without the Texans making a move on
somebody, I took that as an endorsement of Wand's progress and their confidence in him. Then they made this big move on Pace - granted it was
a window of opportunity that opened and closed quickly and they had to move quick to have a shot - but it was the only move they made. I have been puzzled by this all or nothing approach to replacing Wand only with the very best. But I suppose Luckys explanation is the answer - after Pace nobody else of value came along who had a reasonable price. But in a back handed sort of way that's an endorsement - atleast Wand is no worse in
the Texans estimation that what appeared on the FA market this year -
after OP.
 
Wand allowed more sacks than any other lineman in the NFL.
Click to expand...

Just curious, do you have a link or article for this? If so I would like to have a look at it...
Click to expand...

agreed as well. i don't remember at any point last season that i though "damnit, the left side of the line is getting killed!" moreso than any other portion of our line. and even in the small chance this is true, it's already been discussed that alot of the interior line's blown assignments led to carr getting flushed and an ROLB/RE getting outside of wand to make the sack, thus passing the sacks from the original 'culprit' and placing it on wand ...you can't blame him for doing his job, yet getting let down by his fellow lineman.
 
I tend to agree with PFW's take. I don't think our LB crew will scare anyone. That's JMO. IF, I repeat IF, Peek can learn to play the run so he can stay on the field, then he MIGHT turn into that difference maker. Babin needs to greatly improve his play as well imo. Wong is ordinary, and Greenwood while speedy, isn't the next Ray Lewis to say the least...and I still have this nagging sensation that we over paid the guy. As for depth, we have nobody even close to starting calibur. We need one, if not two draftees here. IMO, there are more questions than answers at LB. To me, it's a mess at this point.

On the Dline, we are too old, and overall, not good enough, putting even more pressure on the LB and secondary. We need a youth movement in this area in the worst way. I see a whole ton of if's here. IF Payne can get back to his old self, IF Walker can stay healthy and revert to his 2002 form, IF Robaire Smith can take the next step....IF IF IF. That is all I see here. If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

On the Oline, I see alot of the same thing. IF Seth Wand gets alot better. If we change our line scheme, and provide more help. IF IF IF. if my aunt had balls, she be my uncle. If a hog had wings he'd be an eagle.

I know every team has if's heading into camp. However, the bloom is off the rose. This team needs to at least be a 500 team this year. Anything less will be a failure, pure and simple. Those are my expectations. It's time to put the plan into effect, and at least make a drive toward the playoffs. Barring major injuries, anything less will call into question the FO moves, as well as the coaching. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. They are the experts, and I trust them explicitly. I'm just providing the other side of the coin, as you usually just hear fans giving the half full speech, and I think we need to look at all sides, and think realisticly about where this team is...ie - take off the rose colored glasses, and see it for what it's worth.
 
texan279 said:
Just curious, do you have a link or article for this? If so I would like to have a look at it...
Click to expand...

It doesn't come from an article. Lucky did the research, I believe at Stats, Inc., and found Wand had the highest number of sacks by a LT. Wording is important here though. Several teams had multiple LT's play during the season and combined some teams gave up more sacks from the LT position.
 
texan279 said:
Just curious, do you have a link or article for this? If so I would like to have a look at it...
Click to expand...
In a way, yes. This is Seth Wand's link at Stats.com. It credits Wand with 12.5 sacks allowed. If you go to this link at Stats, you can look up every offensive lineman in the NFL and see his sacks allowed total. The 2 linemen closest to Wand were the Giants LT Luke Petitgout (11.5) & Vikings LG Chris Liwienski (11.75).

Maybe Wand was thrown to the lions (I know he looked terrible in Pontiac). But Seth is entering the last year of his rookie contract. After this season, he's a Restricted Free Agent. The Texans pretty much had to let Wand play in order for them to determine whether or not they had a LT to build with. In my estimation, he's not that LT. With hard work in the weight room & the classroom, maybe a solid RT. Likely a quality reserve. But I don't see the talent or instincts of a NFL caliber LT in Wand.

Will Wand get another shot at LT this year? Looks like it. I mean what are the Texans options now? Draft a rookie high and hope he can learn the blocking & protection schemes by opening day? Move Pitts back to LT (in a contract year for Chester)? Have Wade & Wand swap spots? None look like real good alternatives, I understand. IMO, I think the Texans should spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on a LT. There are 2 or 3 guys who could challenge Wand immediately for the LT spot. Another 2 or 3 who could be ready to take over by '06.

Would taking a young LT that high maximize the value of the draft for the '05 season? No, the Texans would be better served in the short term getting more playmakers for Capers defense. If the Texans are to become a winning team in '05, the defense will have to lead the way. But in the long term, the LT position must be addressed. If not, they'll be looking for a new QB & a new head coach as well as an answer at LT.
 
infantrycak said:
...Wording is important here though. Several teams had multiple LT's play during the season and combined some teams gave up more sacks from the LT position.
Click to expand...
Absolutely correct. The Texans showed far more patience with Wand than any other team would have. If anything, that's a plus in the argument that the Texans will give Wand another shot at the job.
 
Absolutely correct. The Texans showed far more patience with Wand than any other team would have. If anything, that's a plus in the argument that the Texans will give Wand another shot at the job.
Click to expand...

So we should have benched Wand sometime during the season?
 
Lucky said:
Absolutely correct. The Texans showed far more patience with Wand than any other team would have. If anything, that's a plus in the argument that the Texans will give Wand another shot at the job.
Click to expand...

Or other teams had a LT get injured after giving up 8 sacks and the replacement came in and gave up 5. I remember there were a couple/few but can't remember the circumstances--can you? In any event, I was just trying to make sure people understood what you were referencing from the prior thread.
 
Started him too EARLY? From a team that named David Carr its starter before he was even in minicamp, and has started him every game possible? I don't follow that logic. Houston had to leave him in there to see whether the "project" was worth it.

In my view (which I don't need to repeat and which has been better articulated by Lucky in this thread), the project looks pretty grim. Some fans who gripe about underproduction by high-priced FAs on defense seem to want to let the Wand experiment go on for years. I'd argue that it could be just as damaging for the team to let Wand continue to get steamrolled as it is for one of our highly-paid FA defensive linemen to continue to underachieve.

Unfortunately, I do believe that they're way too far down the road now and have to see this through the first part of the season--unless there's a miracle during training camp and a new candidate for the job suddenly emerges. So Wand's most likely the guy until '06.
 
Ah but see the biggest consideration in this whole discussion involving Wand is of course DC. Basically Wand as a 3rd round pick is a very minor investment compared to Carr who is even more to us than the overall top pick of the 2002 Draft - as the franchises one and only starting QB he is our MVP (with all due respect to AJ). And its unsettling to consider that Wand is still a work in progress project. He is some distance from being our established LT - the single most important player any team has in protecting the QB. And we're coming into the teams 4th year - gotta wonder how happy Bob McNair is with this situation right about now. Fact the more I think
about the attempt to haul in OP in the ninth inning - was that an act of desperation ?
 
There is too much speculation across the board.

I don't think we will be as bad as they are making our team out to be.

We are playing the weakest NFC division this year, As for the linebacking core it may not be a fearsome quartet of names, But they have the potential to make more plays than our former quartet, with Peek and Babin.

No one is going to have a perfect draft, But we always seem to come out better than average.

I agree with the Defensive line needs. As for LT and the failed Pace deal, that may be a smoke and mirrors ploy so the other 12 teams in front of us think we draft OL this year, and teams that really want Barron to trade up to get ahead of us, or trade positions and picks with us.
 
I think it is highly unlikely that that was an act of desperation nunusguy. For us to be desperate.. we would have had to first try for all the other talented OTs in FA and fail to get them.

Pace was the only guy we went after.. it seems more likely to me that we were just taking a shot at getting the one player we felt could come in and make an immediate improvement to our Oline. Since we didnt get him.. we arent any worse for wear.. and we do not need Oline help any more than we did before.

I think our coaches are prepared to develope our Oline. Its risky and it sucks.. but its the only decision we really have. There is no way for us to "buy" a good Oline.. and no one we draft is going to be a major improvement over anyone we have now (except maybe McKinney or Wiegert).

Instead of running around like chickens with our heads cut off.. screaming "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" we are working on timing patterns to get the ball out of Carrs hands quicker.. and im sure we will also figure out ways to get Wand more help over on the left side. basicly.. we are doing everything we can to make sure Carr will be safe.. short of wasting draft picks or cap money on players that arent really gonna come in and make a big difference.

Have faith! hehe.. we have a pretty solid Oline(talent wise anyway).. and if we develop them correctly.. the youth and effectiveness of our Oline will eventually be one of our strengths. (once we replace McKinney and Weigert with young talent.. we will have a pretty young Oline)
 
Personally, I think Wand did a pretty good job last year. I can't remember all of the sacks that he supposedly gave up, but I can recall a few of them. I can picture at least 2 or 3 times when Wand had his guy blocked but charged with giving up the sack because Carr was forced out of the pocket by pressure coming up the middle. Even though the sack was caused by a let down in the middle, Wand was tagged because it was his man that made the sack, even though there was nothing Wand could do about it. I do remember Wand getting burned by Freeney, but Wand isn't the only LT in the NFL to get burned by Freeney and he won't be the last. Freeney has done a number on just about everyone he has faced. In so saying, I think Wand will do alright this year and turn out to be a pretty damn good LT for us.
 
You know, I would be ecstatic if our OLine could just provide a middle of the pack performance this season. They've been pretty horrible, IMO, the past three seasons. Their only consistent characteristic was their inconsistency. I do agree we have good young talent, and we also have expensive FA signings playing along that young talent. I've taken the approach coming into each season that, either because of new players or a new scheme, that the OL needs time to gel. Well...as far as I can see we'll have the same players and the same scheme this season. And if we don't, please don't blame the problem on that again, because if that's what's causing the problem, maybe we should stop doing it after three unsuccessfull attempts. It's time for our young talent and expensive acquisitions to step up and deliver atleast mediocre to satisfactory pass protection, and solid run support. Hopefully we'll use more quick timing routes and that will atleast make our line's play easier on the eyes.

I'm not advocating quick fixes. I don't suggest new personnel right away, or new coaching. I just want to see improvement, and a line that is better than one of the worst in the league. The OL has been one of the (if not THE) most crippling factor to our offense in three consecutive seasons, hopefully all the thought and effort we've put into it will finally show up a little this year. The offseason is when you're supposed to work on your weaknesses right?

P.S. It would be nice to atleast draft some depth on the first or early second day, I think our current situation warrants that action.
 
blockhead83 said:
You know, I would be ecstatic if our OLine could just provide a middle of the pack performance this season. They've been pretty horrible, IMO, the past three seasons. Their only consistent characteristic was their inconsistency. I do agree we have good young talent, and we also have expensive FA signings playing along that young talent. I've taken the approach coming into each season that, either because of new players or a new scheme, that the OL needs time to gel. Well...as far as I can see we'll have the same players and the same scheme this season. And if we don't, please don't blame the problem on that again, because if that's what's causing the problem, maybe we should stop doing it after three unsuccessfull attempts. It's time for our young talent and expensive acquisitions to step up and deliver atleast mediocre to satisfactory pass protection, and solid run support. Hopefully we'll use more quick timing routes and that will atleast make our line's play easier on the eyes.

I'm not advocating quick fixes. I don't suggest new personnel right away, or new coaching. I just want to see improvement, and a line that is better than one of the worst in the league. The OL has been one of the (if not THE) most crippling factor to our offense in three consecutive seasons, hopefully all the thought and effort we've put into it will finally show up a little this year. The offseason is when you're supposed to work on your weaknesses right?

P.S. It would be nice to atleast draft some depth on the first or early second day, I think our current situation warrants that action.
Click to expand...


well we will finally have all the same O-Line coming back after playing a full season together and should be familiar with our new blocking scheme. So if after this year there is no improvment i'm sure we can expect some changes to be made.
 
FWIW, in a quick count of the sacks credited against us on nfl.com box scores,
23.5 total sacks are credited to players listed as DE. I haven't looked at it in depth enough to determine the breakdown between right and left DEs, but those are the sacks I counted. Of course, 3 of those were by Freeny in the second game w/ IND, and 3 more are credited to the Colts Robert Mathis in the first game.

Ok, as I am writing this I am going back and forth between here and nfl.com looking at the sack stats against us, and one thing stands out quite a bit.
Of the 23.5 sacks that I see credited to DEs, a full 10 of those are by the Colts DEs... Are the Colts doing something significantly different to be getting that many sacks by the DEs? Additionally, besides having one DE w/ 3 sacks in each game (Mathis and Freeny) no other position posted a sack against us in either of the Colt games. Seems like that might mean something, but what I don't know.
These numbers seem like they have significance to me... maybe one of you more knowlegeable w/ statistics can interpret them in some way.
 
Several thoughts:

1. A true act of desperation would have been to trade two #1 picks for Pace.
2. Not even Barron is guaranteed to start over Wand as a rookie.
3. The Texans definitely need to spend a first day pick on a center, and draft a tackle at some point.
4. The coaches and front office have a lot more experience at player development than we do and they know whether Wand's deficiencies last year were growing pains or if they were inadequacies
 
BornOrange said:
Several thoughts:

1. A true act of desperation would have been to trade two #1 picks for Pace.
2. Not even Barron is guaranteed to start over Wand as a rookie.
3. The Texans definitely need to spend a first day pick on a center, and draft a tackle at some point.
4. The coaches and front office have a lot more experience at player development than we do and they know whether Wand's deficiencies last year were growing pains or if they were inadequacies
Click to expand...


if we do draft a guy i suspect it will be to develope him for the future, we need all the o-line to come back next year, i think since they played together a full year they have had time to Gel, and by putting someone new in there it would only slow their progression down !
 
Lucky said:
In a way, yes. This is Seth Wand's link at Stats.com. It credits Wand with 12.5 sacks allowed. If you go to this link at Stats, you can look up every offensive lineman in the NFL and see his sacks allowed total. The 2 linemen closest to Wand were the Giants LT Luke Petitgout (11.5) & Vikings LG Chris Liwienski (11.75).
Click to expand...

It is a little misleading isn't it? Beside Wand getting beat like a red headed step child when playing against freeny, some of those sacks weren't his fault..Many times I'd see the pocket collapse from the Center spot and Carr wouldn't be able to step up in the pocket so he'd roll out and get hit from a DE that Wand or wade would be blocking.
 
Wolf said:
It is a little misleading isn't it? Beside Wand getting beat like a red headed step child when playing against freeny, some of those sacks weren't his fault...
Click to expand...
Stats, Inc. came up with the stats. The total was actually less than the amount of sacks the oppositions' RDE or ROLB had. And it wasn't just Freeney beating Wand. James Hall had 2.5 sacks. Ekuban had 2. KGB had 2 (and just abused Wand all night). Not to mention the pressures & the hits Carr took after releasing the pass. Who can forget the vicious hit from Eric Barton after Wand let him slip inside untouched on a inside blitz? Regarding Carr rolling from pressure, he usually rolled right. Away from Wand. No, I don't think the total is misleading. I thought it was light the 1st time I saw it, and I went back and checked it from my perspective. I would have credited Wand with 14.5 sacks.
 
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