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Position importance scale?

xtruroyaltyx said:
The problem is that you're judging it from a perspective of Superbowls...That takes a team effort so I don't even know why were using that as a gauge...unless you all want to admit right now that VY really did win those games by himself...


But here's a gauge for you....Name me one BAD defense with an elite corner...

Better yet...Name me a Mediocre defense that has a good secondary...


I can name tons a bad Defenses with some of the best DE's...
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well terrence newman was one of the best corners in the league in '04-'05, and the cowboys' defense wasn't worth much. not many examples come to mind, but then again, there's not many shutdown corners.

for the record, i said NT is the most important non-QB position. i'm not as high on DE's as other people are.
 
kastofsna said:
well terrence newman was one of the best corners in the league in '04-'05, and the cowboys' defense wasn't worth much. not many examples come to mind, but then again, there's not many shutdown corners.

for the record, i said NT is the most important non-QB position. i'm not as high on DE's as other people are.
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NT ???




Im done.
 
kastofsna said:
yeah he is, but he was just a good corner then. he was the brian kelly of that team.
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That almost kinda proves my point.

A corner doesn't even have to be "lock down"....Just having two GOOD corners will do worlds for your defense...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
That almost kinda proves my point.

A corner doesn't even have to be "lock down"....Just having two GOOD corners will do worlds for your defense...
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and having two players that can put consistent pressure on the QB can do wonders, too.

i'm sure asante samuel and william gay had everything to do with that '04 super bowl championship.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
The problem is that you're judging it from a perspective of Superbowls...That takes a team effort so I don't even know why were using that as a gauge...unless you all want to admit right now that VY really did win those games by himself...


But here's a gauge for you....Name me one BAD defense with an elite corner...

Better yet...Name me a Mediocre defense that has a good secondary...


I can name tons a bad Defenses with some of the best DE's...
Click to expand...

killing your point #1:thats the point- a bad pass rush makes the secondary look bad if the qb has time to throw

TexansLucky13 said:
Wrong. I agree completely with him. I was the first person to respond to this thread and I stressed the importance of a CB.
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note that i said 'nearly the only 1':ok:

xtruroyaltyx said:
That almost kinda proves my point.

A corner doesn't even have to be "lock down"....Just having two GOOD corners will do worlds for your defense...
Click to expand...

killing your point #2: thank you- if you only have 2 decent corners and mix up man and zone coverages but also WITH A GOOD PASS RUSH (simeon rice, warren sapp etc) you'll have a good defence- which is why a stud DE is more important:marionaner:
 
an interesting thought. look at the vikings' cornerbacks. top money guys. however, because they had absolutely no pass-rush this season, they had the 31st ranked pass defense in the NFL.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Yeah, you're right...top notch Corners are all over the place, and good DE's aren't....

please come back to reality.....



I never said they couldn't be masked...But if you have a lock down corner you don't need as much of a pass rush...

A lock down corner can almost completely eliminate a reciever from the offense....A good Pass rush takes into account the whole D-line which isn't a fair comparison...unless you want to compare a good pass rush to a good secondary....

I'll take the secondary....[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? I think you there is little doubt that the best passing offense over the last few years have been the Colts. What type of defenses have beaten the Colts? The Steelers and the Patriots both won with no name players in the secondary with the exception of a star safty (the Pats beat the Colts on Manning's 48 TD year with rookies and back ups as 3/4ths of their secodary was hurt). The Steelers got a bunch of pressure on Manning and the entire offense was shut down. There is absolutley no way you can say that a great pass rush is less valuable then a secondary.
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run-david-run said:
Are you serious? I think you there is little doubt that the best passing offense over the last few years have been the Colts. What type of defenses have beaten the Colts? The Steelers and the Patriots both won with no name players in the secondary with the exception of a star safty (the Pats beat the Colts on Manning's 48 TD year with rookies and back ups as 3/4ths of their secodary was hurt). The Steelers got a bunch of pressure on Manning and the entire offense was shut down. There is absolutley no way you can say that a great pass rush is less valuable then a secondary.
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i'm pretty much done arguing about this...

It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
 
compare that to the broncos, who have the best corner in the league. manning had the best games of his playoff career against them.
 
Maddict5 said:
killing your point #1:thats the point- a bad pass rush makes the secondary look bad if the qb has time to throw



note that i said 'nearly the only 1':ok:



killing your point #2: thank you- if you only have 2 decent corners and mix up man and zone coverages but also WITH A GOOD PASS RUSH (simeon rice, warren sapp etc) you'll have a good defence- which is why a stud DE is more important:marionaner:
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The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?
 
run-david-run said:
The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?
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just compare the front 4 and secondaries of any cover 2 defense. it's clear where the talent is, and how success is reached.
 
run-david-run said:
The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?
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You stupid??he said he's done arguing this and no amount of good, useful examples will change that:winky: :doot:
 
run-david-run said:
The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?
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You guys are a trip.

Watch this.


The Texans were 2-14 last year with DW at running back, and we were 6-10 this year...

We were a better team without him...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
That kinda proves that the secondary is more important....

:drunk:
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Wow, thats completly wrong. That clearly shows that the secondry is dependent on the pass rush, as the pass rush goes so does the secondary, meaning that the pass rush is the defining factor in pass defense.

Look at it from another angle. AJ can dominate most any corner in the league, but we cant get him the ball because of the other team's pass rush. When he played against Rasheen Mathis and the Jags, a Pro Bowl corner, he got close to 100 yards both games, Carr was rarely sacked. When we played against Cleaveland, who has a terrible secondary, he got next to no production because Carr coudnt get the ball out of his hand. Its pretty obvious. Yes, the Champ Baily's of this world are harder to come by, but that dosnt mean they are more valuable to a defense. Case in point, Denver aginst the Colts. Best corener back in the league, but no sacks, which resulted in 30 somthing points because they could pick on everyone else in the secondary.
 
run-david-run said:
Wow, thats completly wrong. That clearly shows that the secondry is dependent on the pass rush, as the pass rush goes so does the secondary, meaning that the pass rush is the defining factor in pass defense.

Look at it from another angle. AJ can dominate most any corner in the league, but we cant get him the ball because of the other team's pass rush. When he played against Rasheen Mathis and the Jags, a Pro Bowl corner, he got close to 100 yards both games. When we played against Cleaveland, who has a terrible secondary, he got next to no production because Carr coudnt get the ball out of his hand. Its pretty obvious. Yes, the Champ Baily's of this world are harder to come by, but that dosnt mean they are more valuable to a defense. Case in point, Denver aginst the Colts. Best corener back in the league, but no sacks, which resulted in 30 somthing points because they could pick on everyone else in the secondary.
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That doesn't prove anything...

All that proves is that AJ got less yards against one defense than another...

Why he got less yards can be attributed to HUNDREDS of factors...
 
The short answer is its very difficult to generalize about these things, because there is no standard way all teams value each individual position.
In a way its kinda like applying the Draft "value chart" for different Draft
picks within each round for the sake of trades. One value chart doesn't fit
all Drafts because all years are unique in their quality and quanity of talent.
 
run-david-run said:
thats great, why is he still posting on the subject?
also, way to resort to name calling...really shows off your own intelligence.
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ok i think you misinterpreted me...ive been on the same side as you- i was just kiddin with that post (good examples etc):winky:
 
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...
Click to expand...


HMM yet again i notice no examples...

you must have dosed off during football 101 because EVERY1 AND I MEAN EVERY1 KNOWS: GREAT DEFENCES ARE BUILT FROM THE LINES OUT or heres another 1: WIN IN THE TRENCHES, WIN THE WAR..or just use common sense/logic/ whatever man just wake up- and thats it im done arguing this
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...
Click to expand...

In an ideal world, you might take the corner over the DE, but its just not realistic. There are so many examples of teams winning the Super Bowl with average corners and a great passrush, while there are basically no examples of a defense being lead by the secondary. What your saying might be true in that its much harder to find a Champ Bailey, but we are asking for a historical example of this talent translating into wins.

By the way, Champ has not won a playoff game.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...
Click to expand...

if that were true, why hasn't any team EVER drafted a "shutdown corner" with the first overall pick? are they so mythically rare that they just don't exist, or is it more likely that teams generally put more of an emphasis on the importance of defensive ends?
 
beerlover said:
franchise QB's trump everything (reason why Texans cannot pass on Brady Quinn if he is still on the board @ #8) but after that its OT, DE & CB.

Tackles

2007 #2 Joe Thomas Detorit Wisconsin?

2006 #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets Virginia

2005 #13 Jammal Brown Saints Oklahoma

2004 #2 Robert Gallery Raiders Iowa

2003 #8 Jordan Gross Panthers Utah

2002 #4 Mike Williams Bills Texas

2001 #2 Leonard Davis Cardinals Texas

2000 #3 Chris Samuels Redskins Alabama

1999 #14 John Tait Chiefs Brigham Young

1998 #7 Kyle Turley Saints San Diego State

1997 #1 Orlando Pace Rams Ohio State

1996 #4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens UCLA

1995 #2 Tony Boselli Jaguars USC

1994 #14 Bernard Williams Eagles Georgia

1993 #8 Willie Roaf Saints Louisiana Tech

1992 #8 Bob Whitfield Falcons Stanford

1991 #7 Charles McRae Buccaneers Tennessee

1990 #9 Richmond Webb Dolphins Texas A&M

1989 #2 Tony Mandarich Packers Michigan State

1988 #4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers Wisconsin

1987 #15 John Clay Raiders Missouri

1986 #6 Jim Dombrowski Saints Virginia

1985 #2 Bill Fralic Falcons Pittsburgh

1984 #5 Mark Adickes Chiefs Baylor

1984 #2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers Nebraska

1983 #4 Chris Hinton Broncos Northwestern
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nice post beer lover. the question with this ball club has always been which year ?

1. OT
2. CB
3. Speed
4. QB
5. DE
6. Dt
7. Punter
8. Kicker
 
threetoedpete said:
nice post beer lover. the question with this ball club has always been which year ?

1. OT
2. CB
3. Speed
4. QB
5. DE
6. Dt
7. Punter
8. Kicker
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So how exactly is a CB more valuable then a QB? The best QB (Peyton) and the best CB (Champ) played against each other this season. Peyton 3 for 300 something yards and 4 TD's, none of which were against Champ. QB is a foundation of your entire team, while CB is a complementary position. And punter/kicker..really? Makes me wonder why I bother responding...:ok:
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...
Click to expand...


Sorry xtru, you lost all credibility after the 2nd time you were done a few pages ago! lol: Just joking. :shades:
 
David's Busted Carr said:
I was listening to the NFL Network on Sirius on my way to work this morning. This is a national broadcast so they have no biased opinions (which is nice). I just happened to be listening when a guy called in from Houston.

His question was assuming Peterson & Thomas are not available when we pick, most likely our decision will come down to LaRon Landry vs. Amobe Okoye. Both of the radio guys agreed with that. Then the caller asked which of the those guys would be a better pick and both of the radio guys said Okoye WITHOUT A DOUBT. (Keep in mind this was today AFTER Landry's steller combine).

They mentioned something about a "position importance scale" where there is a premium place on certain positions over others. And in this case a DT with Okoye's ability is "much harder to find" than a safety.

I was wondering how much stock teams actually put into that? I'm guessing quite a bit since that is why we chose Mario over Reggie last year. The Texans viewed Mario as a much more "rare and hard to find" talent than Reggie Bush.

So how would you rate the positions in order of importance vs. the ability to find premium players at the respective positions?

1) OT
2) QB
3) DE
4) CB
5) OG
6) DT

??? What do you guys think?
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1) QB - we have garbage now
2) OT - LT???
3) OG - Pitts and Weary are OK, DEPTH??
4) DT - We have guys off the street playing DT
5) WR - Moulds is gone, #2?? Meachem??
6) FS - C.C. is a joke. also, DEPTH???
7) DE - Is Babin or Kalu the answer? don't think so.
8) SS - Glenn Earl is also a joke. DEPTH????
 
David's Busted Carr said:
So how would you rate the positions in order of importance vs. the ability to find premium players at the respective positions?

1) OT
2) QB
3) DE
4) CB
5) OG
6) DT

??? What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Another opinion, not necessarily based on importance, but the hardest position to find super stars.

1) QB
2) DE
3) OT
4) DB (Cover man-Safety or DB)
5) DT
6) C

QBs are always in the spotlight, they always get a lot of recognition even when they are just average. But true super star QBs are hard to find, the turn over rate is very high, and there are more QB busts than at any other position.
 
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