Plummer vs. Carr

[HoustonFrog]

Carr would be more effiencent with GK as the OC & HC. add to that equation a better line and a elite talent like Bush = Better Results which is exactly what Plummer has done since coming to Denver and now Denver is a serious Superbowl contender, as a matter of fact I visualize the Broncos beating the Steelers & GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL.

Carr is almost a Carbon-copy of Palmer, they both have good speed & strong arms, what your seeing is just a more experinced, grizzled system QB in Plummer

My problem with all of this is that I just wasn't that impressed with Plummer, even with the results. I think he was still all over the place in the pocket and he still threw some really bad passes that were lucky not to be picked. Is he a player that is one win away from a SB?Yes. I just have hard time being a team where we bring in players and try to win despite the QB.

 

[beerlover]

My problem with all of this is that I just wasn't that impressed with Plummer, even with the results. I think he was still all over the place in the pocket and he still threw some really bad passes that were lucky not to be picked. Is he a player that is one win away from a SB?Yes. I just have hard time being a team where we bring in players and try to win despite the QB.

exactly, finally someone gets it

the comparison is a valid one because it uncovers both the postive & negative aspects of Plummer & Carr, possible results into the future & making a decesion now that could impact that future

 

[fuzzy]

I think the guy has rocks for brains because 1) he couldn't even get into his school to start with and had to go the dumb route of JUCO before college 2) after 4 years of making rookie mistakes he is still making rookie mistakes....holding the ball, staring down the first receiver,etc. As for the teammates thing, you would see that I said my friends and I said he wasn't a good leader and therefore would not take them anywhere. I then said his teammates said the same..followed by proof that McKinney actually said that he is not their leader. How am I making stuff up about the guy? Stop jumping on me because I am not up this guys tail like most of the people around here.

http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/carr_david00.html
Funny, I don't see any mention of JUCO in Carr's biography at Fresno State. He was there 5 years (including redshirting one year). Your dislike of Carr is obvious, but at least get your facts right. Repeating the same drivel over and over does not make it true. I

 

[HoustonFrog]

http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/carr_david00.html
Funny, I don't see any mention of JUCO in Carr's biography at Fresno State. He was there 5 years (including redshirting one year). Your dislike of Carr is obvious, but at least get your facts right. Repeating the same drivel over and over does not make it true. I

Before you start calling out people maybe you should read his bio. While at Fresno his grades were horrible. He had to take classes on the side. Here is a story with a quote. "Carr is one of those 15. Although Carr was not a non-qualifier, "we have had our (academic) battles," Baxter said. " Obviously not drivel.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/b/page/pressbox/0,1328,4292753,00.html

For the record when this team was first formed I loved Carr. I thought he was gutsy and handled himself well. As the 4 seasons have progressed and I have seen the same mistakes over and over and the way he has started to conduct himself, IMHO he is not a leader or very smart on the field. I have nothing against him personally. I'm just stating my opinion.

 

[Dr. Toro]

The answer to your initial question is not very many. When you mention skill talent you're forgetting one key thing THE OFFENSIVE LINE. If you combine our weak recieving core (yes, others have weaker cores), our weak offensive line (arguably the worst in the NFL), and gawdawful play calling you get a recipe for disaster.

I think a lot of Carr's sacks are due to his horrible pocket presence/bad decision making. I used the rushing game to present an objective view of the line's performance. We ranked 15th in team rushing this year (113.5 ypg), and tied for 9th in rushing average (4.2 ypc), with a good group of running backs, but no superstars. Of those guys I listed as better QBs with similar talent, none had a significantly better running attack.

Run blocking and pass blocking are different things, but our ability to run in the top third of the NFL would indicate our line isn't as bad as Carr's sack numbers suggests. I think our line needs a lot of improvement, but I also think Carr makes them look worse. If you can't beat the blitz, teams will keep blitzing.

In December when talk about Carr's option came up on 610, somebody presented a stat indicating Carr has a disproportionate number of sacks to knockdowns compared to other QBs. If I can find it, I'll post it.

 

[barzilla]

Houstonfrog,

First of all, I am a graduate of TCU (96'). I just thought I'd throw that out there.

I agree that using one football game to judge a player is wrong. In fact, that is the reason I'm against going with Young (I feel a lot of people have been unduly influenced by the championship game). Unfortunately, Carr does not have a larger body of work where he called the plays. He was hamstrung by the coaching staff. My use of that half is only meant to say that he outperformed the coaching staff and their playcalling in general AND IN THAT GAME.

It is clear to me that the past coaching staff was either insanely conservative or they had the same estimation of Carr that you did. The above is not evidence that Carr would average 48 points a game as QB. Yes, the Cards were terrible. However, it is evidence that their estimation of his abilities might be wrong. Despite the fallback this year, I did see improvement in Carr. He still completed more than sixty percent of his passes and still threw fewer interceptions than before. Dom Capers style of coaching emphasized cutting down on turnovers. Throwing the ball before the sack increases the chances of an interception. It is highly possible that the offensive staff didn't emphasize getting rid of the ball. It's also highly possible that he simply reads defenses slower than necessary.

I like the comparison to Jake Plummer because it shows that QBs aren't the number one key to winning in the NFL. If you look at the final four you will not find one QB picked in the top five and only one of them was a first rounder. As much as we might hate to admit, most teams would be better off focusing on their defense and the rest of their offense (running game) and asking if the QB will manage the game. I love watching QBs that make plays. Even though I'm in favor of Bush, I have to admit that watching Young make plays would be fun. However, I'm not sure if that is going to get us the ultimate prize.

At the end of the day, I'm not saying that I know that Carr is good enough or smart enough. I'm simply introducing evidence that might say otherwise. He could be the biggest ***** that came down the pike (although I'd vote Casey Printers on that one), but we won't know until the new regime gets a chance to work with him.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Barzilla, great post and as a Texan fan I'd love to see it work out like you said. If Carr is the answer then I'll gladly eat crow and we can all be happy winning or getting far with what we can surround him with. My main worries over the years have been decisions and leadership...something that is growing worse IMHO by the year. BUT I agree with your post for the most part on what Denver is trying to accomplish, etc. I know people dont' go back and read all the old posts but just for clarification, I never have said draft VY on here and have always believed getting Bush with the early to mid picks on O-line and a TE as the best route. Then if Carr still doesn't cut it, he can be gone. I do see where the VY lovers might think he could lead us elsewhere though.

Casey Printers makes me mad. Embarrassed us against A&M and then left. No matter how many Big XII teams we beat that kill A&M I still catch flack about that loss. Good to see a fellow Frog on here

 

[Kaiser Toro]

It seems like we have a barn burner here, much in the line of other epic battles such as Lawnmower guy vs Boat; Pool Cleaner man vs Vacuum; Septic tank guy vs. Jacuzzi.

Yes that was a dying last gasp at humor in a season that has produced few smiles. Oy Vey!

 

[bdiddy]

I think David Carr is more naturally skilled than Jake Plummer. He has a better pure arm, is bigger, and only slightly less mobile. It is my opinion that with Kubiak as his tutor Carr can be a top 10 QB in the NFL. Now this will not happen next year, but I do expect to see significant improvement especially during the second half of the season. Carr will also benefit from an improved o-line, offensive scheme, and the additional weapon of Reggie Bush.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Carr would be more effiencent with GK as the OC & HC. add to that equation a better line and a elite talent like Bush = Better Results which is exactly what Plummer has done since coming to Denver and now Denver is a serious Superbowl contender, as a matter of fact I visualize the Broncos beating the Steelers & GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL.

Carr is almost a Carbon-copy of Palmer, they both have good speed & strong arms, what your seeing is just a more experinced, grizzled system QB in Plummer

So iguess Mike S. the HC has nothing to do with it. If K can make carr a good QB then were a 8-8 to 10-6 team during good years. I don't think K will want to break the bad habits that carr has as an NFL QB. He'd much rather, I guess, would want to groom a new QB that has the same skills carr had coming out of college and then some.

 

[barzilla]

I think a lot of Carr's sacks are due to his horrible pocket presence/bad decision making. I used the rushing game to present an objective view of the line's performance. We ranked 15th in team rushing this year (113.5 ypg), and tied for 9th in rushing average (4.2 ypc), with a good group of running backs, but no superstars. Of those guys I listed as better QBs with similar talent, none had a significantly better running attack.

Run blocking and pass blocking are different things, but our ability to run in the top third of the NFL would indicate our line isn't as bad as Carr's sack numbers suggests. I think our line needs a lot of improvement, but I also think Carr makes them look worse. If you can't beat the blitz, teams will keep blitzing.

In December when talk about Carr's option came up on 610, somebody presented a stat indicating Carr has a disproportionate number of sacks to knockdowns compared to other QBs. If I can find it, I'll post it.

That may well be Dr. Toro. As I've said before, I'm not certain of anything. I think anyone on here that says so is deluding themselves. I know what I see and what I see is a QB that doesn't have enough time (in my estimation). I don't think run blocking and pass blocking are necessarily the same thing. They require different skills. Another part of that equation is that when you go into max protect and send out only two WRs it takes time for them to get open. This is especially true when that second WR is Corey Bradford.

At the end of the day these are only my opinions. All I'm saying is that these issues are more complex than you or I make them out to be. I could be wrong and if I am I don't care. In the end, we all want the Texans to win, so I'm not that ego driven about it (not saying you are of course).

 

[barzilla]

Barzilla, great post and as a Texan fan I'd love to see it work out like you said. If Carr is the answer then I'll gladly eat crow and we can all be happy winning or getting far with what we can surround him with. My main worries over the years have been decisions and leadership...something that is growing worse IMHO by the year. BUT I agree with your post for the most part on what Denver is trying to accomplish, etc. I know people dont' go back and read all the old posts but just for clarification, I never have said draft VY on here and have always believed getting Bush with the early to mid picks on O-line and a TE as the best route. Then if Carr still doesn't cut it, he can be gone. I do see where the VY lovers might think he could lead us elsewhere though.

Casey Printers makes me mad. Embarrassed us against A&M and then left. No matter how many Big XII teams we beat that kill A&M I still catch flack about that loss. Good to see a fellow Frog on here

Yeah, I remember watching that game in a hotel room in Mississippi of all places (in between casino runs). However, back to the issues at hand......

I'm not suggesting anything but a possibility. Carr could get run over by a bus tommorrow for all I know. The Saints may lose their head and give us the number two overall selection for Carr and draft picks. However, I'm standing with you on Bush, but there are so many people on here with so many opinions that it's almost impossible to keep track of where everyone stands.

Listen, I understand watching your guy at your alma mater and thinking he would kick butt for my team. I remember watching LT and scratching my head half of the time, but I wouldn't have bet the money in my wallet at the time that he was going to be this good as a pro. That's what makes it so hard on these kinds of decisions.

Bush and Young are men among boys. Yes, UT threw the kitchen sink at Bush and he still had 180 yards of total offense between rushing and recieving. We saw what Young did as well. The question is what they will do when they are playing against men. You can compare them to Barry Sanders, Gale Sayers, Randal Cunningham, Steve McNair, or Michael Vick. You still don't know.

I still remember vividly hearing so-called experts saying Ryan Leaf would be a better pro than Peyton Manning. Who knows, if the tables were turned he still might have. A large part of the success of a rookie depends on the situation a guy is put into. Part of me is still wondering if we should trade down. I honestly will not be angry with any of the three options just listed. It was happens from there that will make all the difference.