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Patriots under investigation

If the CHEATING is "successful", then yes. Unsuccessful cheaters are easily forgotten. But it is not outrage at the "success", it is HOW they became "successful."
It's a weird one isn't it, there's no actual quantifiable damage caused by the cheating in this case, just a view that that they've gained an unspecified advantage. Would the patriots be justifiably outraged the next time an opposing WR 'sells' a catch of a ball that he knows has hit the ground and gets away with it? Would they be right in demanding fines, suspensions and docking of draft picks? Why is some cheating like this accepted as part of the game while other types cause such outrage?

I'm not supporting the patriots here, I can't stand them and wish all the punishment in the world on them, but standing back and looking at it objectively raises questions.
 
Patriots’ Deflategate rebuttal included scientist with financial ties to owner Bob Kraft
In their epic-length rebuttal to the Wells Report on Deflategate, the New England Patriots included a report by scientist Roderick MacKinnon, who won the 2003 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. MacKinnon writes that the Wells Report featured “major uncertainty” with regard to the science of deflated footballs and that the scientific analysis in the report “was based on data that are simply insufficient.”

If you’re wondering why the Patriots turned to MacKinnon, here’s the possible reason: As first pointed Thursday by Nature magazine’s Noah Gray, MacKinnon co-founded a biotech company that has received investment funding from, among other entities, the Kraft Group, which was founded by Patriots owner Robert Kraft.

ESPN’s Bob Ley relays just how conjoined Kraft and MacKinnon are, as reported by colleague Paula Lavigne:

Boy Ley @OTL
Nobel laureate, cited by @Patriots in rebuttal to @nfl Wells Report, has significant financial ties to co. in which Kraft Group is investor

The Patriots noted this connection after originally releasing their rebuttal on Thursday, adding the following line to the introduction of MacKinnon’s report: “Prior to the company going public, the investment arm of The Kraft Group made a passive investment in Flex Pharma as part of a large syndicated investor group.”

This was a fairly significant revision of the original introduction, in which the team said it had absolutely no connection to MacKinnon. Per Pro Football Talk:

In the original introduction to his work, MacKinnon is described as someone with “no business or personal relationship with the Patriots” who “offered his scientific expertise to the team” once news of the investigation went public.​

The Patriots appear to be guilty of exactly the same issues that they say plague the Wells report (again, via PFT):

Elsewhere in their response to the report, the Patriots raise the issue of the longstanding relationship between the NFL and Wells’ law firm Paul Weiss. They suggest that it would have been “appropriate” to be clearer about the nature of that relationship in a report that found no fault with the way the league handled the matter.

“Such disclosures would help the public better assess the findings regarding League conduct, of which there is not a single critical comment or single suggestion for improvement in the report. No one should take calls for such disclosure personally.”

After spending the first 17 years of his Post career writing and editing, Matt and the printed paper had an amicable divorce in 2014. He's now blogging and editing for the Early Lead and the Post's other Web-based products.​
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ntist-with-financial-ties-to-owner-bob-kraft/
 
...
b72kjpriiae3olc.jpg



deflate-gate-patriots-colts-memes-12.jpg
 
Patriots rebuttal to Wells report...
Brady in 2011 interview...

pinocchio.gif

That interview told the ball boys how Brady liked the ball. It's plausible that Brady didn't tell the ball boys what to do because he didn't have too.
 
Just a question to my attorney colleagues.....if Brady sues the NFL, will that open up his phone records, etc somewhere along the way?

If they don't find a Patriots fan to act as Judge, the case should never go beyond the first preliminary hearing due to lack of jurisdiction. The only exception would be in a case where a breech of contract is alleged and all contractual remedies agreed to have been exhausted. But I'm not a lawyer so I only know how the system is supposed to work, not how to dismantle it through gamesmanship like a REAL lawyer..
 
It's a weird one isn't it, there's no actual quantifiable damage caused by the cheating in this case, just a view that that they've gained an unspecified advantage. Would the patriots be justifiably outraged the next time an opposing WR 'sells' a catch of a ball that he knows has hit the ground and gets away with it? Would they be right in demanding fines, suspensions and docking of draft picks? Why is some cheating like this accepted as part of the game while other types cause such outrage?

I'm not supporting the patriots here, I can't stand them and wish all the punishment in the world on them, but standing back and looking at it objectively raises questions.
All cheating should draw fines and penalties and I would say rules that are routinely ignored should be ended. Of course, the assumption that the player always knows is false. Sometimes he thinks he caught it when he did not.
 
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yeah, I don't get it. The Patriots have been a consistent dynasty for the past 14 seasons when it was said that dynasties could never exist again due to rule changes and free agency.

I get the hatred of them. Consistent success always brings that contrary view in some folks. But, I do not understand the inability to be objective in analysis of pro football. The hatred becomes blinders that only allow some folks to see what they want to see.

Love them, hate them, whatever, but if you're honest you'll respect them.

No. I honestly do NOT respect them just because they won by cheating. It saddens me since they might have won without the blatant disregard for the rules. But they get no RESPECT after doing it their way.
 
Maybe the ball boys shouldn't have listened to HWSNBM.

"Tell ya what, Dave.... make a pass longer than 3 yards and we'll talk PSI"

...Mike Florio of Pro Football Talk uncovered a nearly 10-year-old article in which NFL Media’s Judy Battista — formerly of the New York Times — described the process that Carr goes through to break in game balls. According to Battista, Carr told Houston Texans ball boys to let some air out.

“Carr, like several other quarterbacks, said Denver was one of the toughest places to play,” she wrote in 2006. “He said he thought the ball expanded slightly at the altitude and felt slick because of the lower humidity. Before Houston’s preseason game at Denver, Carr instructed the ball boys to let a little air out of the Texans’ footballs.”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/david-carr-spoke-about-deflating-footballs-in-2006/ar-BBjTxh0
 
Asked about his current relationship with commissioner Roger Goodell (which was until two weeks ago warm and convivial), Kraft said: “You’ll have to ask him.”
:cricket:
Asked whether he might violate NFL bylaws by going to court to try to get the league penalties overturned, Kraft said, “I won’t say.”
:cricket:
Asked why he suspended club employees John Jastremski and Jim McNally despite fiercely proclaiming his organization’s innocence, Kraft refused comment...

:cricket::cricket::cricket:
 
Asked about his current relationship with commissioner Roger Goodell (which was until two weeks ago warm and convivial), Kraft said: “You’ll have to ask him.”
:cricket:
Asked whether he might violate NFL bylaws by going to court to try to get the league penalties overturned, Kraft said, “I won’t say.”
:cricket:
Asked why he suspended club employees John Jastremski and Jim McNally despite fiercely proclaiming his organization’s innocence, Kraft refused comment...

:cricket::cricket::cricket:


Showing the beginning signs of senility?
 
Back channel dealings are the thing, again. :truck:

Adam Schefter of ESPN reports that the league and the Patriots are engaged in “back-channel conversations” to determine whether the league and the team can resolve their differences without an appeal or potential litigation.

These discussions presumably would apply only to the $1 million fine and the two draft picks stripped from the Patriots — a first-rounder in 2016 and a fourth-round selection in 2017. But those back-channel negotiations could result in a wink-nod understanding regarding a potential reduction in quarterback Tom Brady’s four-game suspension by the league, along with a commitment by the Patriots to persuade Brady to accept the outcome without filing a lawsuit of his own.

The broader question for the NFL becomes whether fans and/or the media would react negatively to a deal...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/18/report-nfl-patriots-working-to-resolve-deflategate/
 
Major media guys are beginning to turn back to Patriots advocates, or at least pushing Kraft's agenda. A deal must be in the works, and most of these guys don't want to be shut out by the Patriots... which has been common practice for those who do not fall in line with the organization.
 
Adam Schefter of ESPN reports that the league and the Patriots are engaged in “back-channel conversations” to determine whether the league and the team can resolve their differences without an appeal or potential litigation.

These discussions presumably would apply only to the $1 million fine and the two draft picks stripped from the Patriots — a first-rounder in 2016 and a fourth-round selection in 2017. But those back-channel negotiations could result in a wink-nod understanding regarding a potential reduction in quarterback Tom Brady’s four-game suspension by the league, along with a commitment by the Patriots to persuade Brady to accept the outcome without filing a lawsuit of his own.

The broader question for the NFL becomes whether fans and/or the media would react negatively to a deal...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/18/report-nfl-patriots-working-to-resolve-deflategate/

Damn... does Schefter have no respect for the traditional ways things get done?

ED-AO613_wl2101_G_20111130151910.jpg


Smoke-filled rooms are how things get done
 
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter
Goodell-Kraft attended Sean McManus’ 60th birthday Sat in NYC; they were spotted “on a couch, talking by themselves for quite a long time."

Roger Goodell and Patriots owner Robert Kraft already have met, spoke and even hugged, per an industry source who witnessed it.

Roger and Robert are back together... the fix is in.
 
a league source told Schefter on Tuesday that the league asked the Patriots to suspend officials locker room attendant Jim McNally and equipment assistant John Jastremski before the team was disciplined by the NFL. The Patriots obliged with the request to suspend the two employees.

An NFL spokesman denied ESPN's report that the league asked the team to suspend the employees.

Schefter doing work for Kraft.
*************************
Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer
Per the @PATRIOTSdotCOM feed, Patriots owner Robert Kraft will be speaking at 1 pm at the owners meetings.


mike freeman ‏@mikefreemanNFL
Goodell to Kraft: "Can we put this behind us snookums?"

Kraft: "Yes honey pie face."

Goodell: "I'm glad sugar plum."

Kraft: "Call me?"
 
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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter
Robert Kraft says Patriots will not appeal discipline against his team, reluctantly.

Tom Brady's appeal of his 4-game suspension will go on.

Andrew Brandt ‏@adbrandt
Kraft: "Accept reluctantly what he has given us. We won't appeal." Had predicted this. Use for future political reciprocation.

Assuming this means Brady will get favorable reduction of games suspension.

This all could've been minimized exponentially if Brady just comes clean. Now the world knows about #deflategate.
 
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No. I honestly do NOT respect them just because they won by cheating. It saddens me since they might have won without the blatant disregard for the rules. But they get no RESPECT after doing it their way.

Describe to me past dynasties that didn't have issues like this.

Packers/Lombardi,Steelers/Steroids, 49ers/DeBartolo in prison. Cowboys/Jerrah, Broncos/Salary cap, Pats....

I would say that your sig doesn't apply to any of those franchises.
 
Does anybody think that Brady will continue on with his all star legal teams proceedings, in spite of Kraft caving?
 
Describe to me past dynasties that didn't have issues like this.

Packers/Lombardi,Steelers/Steroids, 49ers/DeBartolo in prison. Cowboys/Jerrah, Broncos/Salary cap, Pats....

I would say that your sig doesn't apply to any of those franchises.

There isn't a single team in the league, including the Texans, which hasn't had some issues.
 
.
Describe to me past dynasties that didn't have issues like this.

Packers/Lombardi,Steelers/Steroids, 49ers/DeBartolo in prison. Cowboys/Jerrah, Broncos/Salary cap, Pats....

I would say that your sig doesn't apply to any of those franchises.

Don't forget Jerry Rice admitting to using a banned substance called Stickum.

Maybe the only 'honorable' teams are the losing ones. :winky:
 
Does anybody think that Brady will continue on with his all star legal teams proceedings, in spite of Kraft caving?
I absolutely think he'll continue his appeal via the avenues provided by the CBA. Once those avenues are exhausted, I don't think he'll take it any further than that since from that point and beyond, the stonewalling he did (failure to allow access to text messages and the like) would no longer be an option. Obviously, if the entire penalty were to be overturned on appeal, we'll never know what he would have done.
 
.


Don't forget Jerry Rice admitting to using a banned substance called Stickum.

Maybe the only 'honorable' teams are the losing ones. :winky:

I've said this before, the old Raider motto was that if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying. Almost all athletes that are in some sort of competition and trying to win (as opposed to an athlete like me who was just competing against himself trying to get better but with the knowledge that I wasn't competitive against the "real" guys) are looking for some sort of edge. Every one of them should be trying to do everything they can to improve their performance.

In the NFL (and major sports like the NBA and MLB), these guys have a lot of money and with that comes the ability to access all sorts of things a regular person can't. Any athlete who isn't doing things like experimenting with hyperbaric chambers for recovery, trying the cutting edge drugs that do NOT show up on drug tests, testing those boundaries to find some sort of competitive edge, isn't really trying to win. And that includes seeing if they can put something on their hands so they grip the ball better, or putting something on their jerseys so that they're slipperier, or something.

I expect these guys to test those boundaries between legal and illegal.
 
I've said this before, the old Raider motto was that if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying. Almost all athletes that are in some sort of competition and trying to win (as opposed to an athlete like me who was just competing against himself trying to get better but with the knowledge that I wasn't competitive against the "real" guys) are looking for some sort of edge. Every one of them should be trying to do everything they can to improve their performance.

In the NFL (and major sports like the NBA and MLB), these guys have a lot of money and with that comes the ability to access all sorts of things a regular person can't. Any athlete who isn't doing things like experimenting with hyperbaric chambers for recovery, trying the cutting edge drugs that do NOT show up on drug tests, testing those boundaries to find some sort of competitive edge, isn't really trying to win. And that includes seeing if they can put something on their hands so they grip the ball better, or putting something on their jerseys so that they're slipperier, or something.

I expect these guys to test those boundaries between legal and illegal.
I don't.
 
But a journalist well entrenched with the team said Wednesday that Kraft was swayed because head coach Bill Belichick harbored doubts regarding Tom Brady’s version of events.

“Belichick never believed his story, from what I was told,” Boston Herald columnist Ron Borgessaid Wednesday on Town Fair Tire Sports Tonight, a weeknight sports news program that airs regionally on CSN New England. “Because they all know. Why do you think all those retired quarterbacks, the Troy Aikmans of the world – Troy Aikman is about as nice a guy as I’ve ever met in football – nobody’s backed [Brady]? Nobody, not a single guy. Why do you think that is? Because they hate Brady? No.

“Because they’re not stupid. They know nothing’s done with those balls that the quarterback doesn’t want done.”

Link
 
I've said this before, the old Raider motto was that if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying. Almost all athletes that are in some sort of competition and trying to win (as opposed to an athlete like me who was just competing against himself trying to get better but with the knowledge that I wasn't competitive against the "real" guys) are looking for some sort of edge. Every one of them should be trying to do everything they can to improve their performance.

In the NFL (and major sports like the NBA and MLB), these guys have a lot of money and with that comes the ability to access all sorts of things a regular person can't. Any athlete who isn't doing things like experimenting with hyperbaric chambers for recovery, trying the cutting edge drugs that do NOT show up on drug tests, testing those boundaries to find some sort of competitive edge, isn't really trying to win. And that includes seeing if they can put something on their hands so they grip the ball better, or putting something on their jerseys so that they're slipperier, or something.

I expect these guys to test those boundaries between legal and illegal.

I agree. Perhaps being a baseball fan since I was three had an impact. I loved Gaylord Perry, who made a HOF career out of cheating on the mound. These little stories like deflate gate are amusing, even endearing to me.

However, I find their response... The treatment of media and fans insulting... and I would argue that it is Brady and Bellicheck's denial that demonstrates a lack of integrity and character, not the incident itself. It is particularly appalling that the trainer has been fired and will probably never work in the NFL again... Making that guy the scapegoat despicable, IMO.
 
I agree. Perhaps being a baseball fan since I was three had an impact. I loved Gaylord Perry, who made a HOF career out of cheating on the mound. These little stories like deflate gate are amusing, even endearing to me.

However, I find their response... The treatment of media and fans insulting... and I would argue that it is Brady and Bellicheck's denial that demonstrates a lack of integrity and character, not the incident itself. It is particularly appalling that the trainer has been fired and will probably never work in the NFL again... Making that guy the scapegoat despicable, IMO.
As if this were a surprise
 
Marshall, Jan 23, 2015
If the coach was named Manning, you know what they'd do. Suspend the Buck passing Beliarcheat for a year without pay or contact with anyone in football. It's time to throw the Bowery Boys under the bus like they are planning to do with some young ball boy.
Just a reminder that the ball boy was the one in jeopardy. Perfectly foreseeable.
 
If Belichick never believed Brady, why did he go through that whole Bill Nye Science Guy presser? Unless he later changed his mind about him?

I think it's been going on for many years, and I don't believe it went unnoticed by Belichick and/or Earnie Adams.
 
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Would one of you graphics guys show the Lombardi Trophy with the deflation needle at the top like a radio tower? That could be the New Patriot's only Award.
 
But it won't be Goodell doing the reducing. IF it gets reduced, it won't be the suspension. If there's a reduction I think it'll be one or both of the draft picks reinstated. Kraft or Belichick didn't have anything to do with deflate-gate so, in my mind, the loss of picks isn't really justified. This should have fallen all on Brady.
And at least part of the cover up continues.
 
Sorry if repost.....


Report: Belichick never believed Brady on deflation issue

The popular theory regarding the somewhat surprising decision of the Patriots to not appeal the punishments imposed against the team by the NFL is that owner Robert Kraft and Commissioner Roger Goodell struck some sort of a behind-the-scenes deal, possibly one that entails reducing the four-game suspension imposed on quarterbackTom Brady. But there’s another theory that is simpler, both on the surface and beneath.

Maybe the Patriots just caved because they knew they couldn’t win and they didn’t want to do more damage to their relationship with their 31 business partners and the presiding body that binds them together.

Appearing recently on CSN New England’s Sports Tonight, Ron Borges of theBoston Herald offered up a tidbit that fits with the theory that the Patriots abandoned a fight they knew: (1) they wouldn’t win; and (2) would make things worse.

“[Coach Bill] Belichick never believed [Brady’s] story, from what I was told,” Borges said. “Because they all know. Why do you think all those retired quarterbacks, the Troy Aikmans of the world — Troy Aikman is about as nice a guy as I’ve ever met in football — nobody’s backed [Brady]. Nobody, not a single guy. Why do you think that is? Because they hate Brady? No. Because they’re not stupid. They know nothing’s done with those balls that the quarterback doesn’t want done.”

That’s pretty much what Brady said back in January, during that awkward are-you-a-cheater?-I-don’t-believe-so press conference that few found credible.

“When I pick those footballs out, at that point, to me, they’re perfect. I don’t want anyone touching the balls after that, I don’t want anyone rubbing them, putting any air in, taking any air out, to me those balls are perfect and that’s what I expect when I’m on the field,” Brady said.

So if he doesn’t want anyone to do anything to the footballs after that and if they do something to the footballs after that, they’re either making the footballs less perfect to Brady’s chagrin — or more perfect to Brady’s delight.

The Wells report has many flaws. The science is shoddy and suspect. And the team of high-priced sharks supposedly skilled and experienced in interrogating witnesses was unable to get a confession from a pair of maroons whose text messages made them seem guilty.

Even without a confession or a smoking gun from Messrs. Beavis and Butthead, the text messages made them seem guilty. Someone apparently was doing something to footballs that Brady had deemed to be perfect. Although the NFL historically failed to understand the dynamics of air pressure and historically failed to apply any sort of scientific principles to the pre-game inflation process and historically failed to properly supervise the footballs before kickoff and historically failed to ensure a clear chain of custody of the official game balls, the text messages point vaguely to misconduct. Although some league officials may have had an agenda against the Patriots during the AFC title game and after it (by leaking blatantly false PSI data to ESPN, which gave the situation a much more sinister feel), the text messages point vaguely to misconduct.

That’s perhaps why Belichick isolated Brady from the get go, telling reporters that the coach knew nothing about the preparation of the footballs, and that reporters would have to talk to Brady. Unless a deal was struck through the back channels to secure better treatment for Brady (if he accepts the obvious offer from Commissioner Roger Goodell to finally turn over that cell phone), the Patriots perhaps have decided that they should walk away from a fight they can’t win because they finally realize it’s also a fight they shouldn’t win.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...hick-never-believed-brady-on-deflation-issue/

 
I'm trying to get adjusted to the new board. Excuse the hell out of me.
Yeah, it's kinda bizarre what it posts from a copy/paste sometimes. I find myself doing a lot of html editing to get rid of isht like gigantic video ads or ~30/40 article links that sneak in.

On my laptop I can "post as plain text", but on my iPhone/iPad I have to go to an online html remover.
 
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