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Packers vs Broncos
- Thread starter dc_txtech
- Start date
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Wade's defense in Denver is more modern than it was in Houston. They also have more pass rushers and way more speed than we did/do.
dc_txtech
All Pro
True but we had JJ Watt.
Looks like Peyton is mixing his style in with Kubiak's... Omaha.
& DTHOMAS just proved not giving cushion isn't always a good thing.
& DTHOMAS just proved not giving cushion isn't always a good thing.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Please explain how it is more modern.
They also have way more Aqib Talib and Chris Harris than we do.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
The NFL used to be all about your base offense vs our base defense. Big on big and the tougher, more physical team wins. But that's not how offense is played anymore. Everything is more spread out now and it's about speed and precision. Now it's all about adapting your defense to combat the offense. That means a change in philosophy and a bigger emphasis on sub-packages.
The Nickel defense is basically the base defense in the NFL nowadays. Think about our Nickel when Wade was here. Pretty much all we did was sub-in Brice McCain for a LB and played him in the slot. That kind of thing worked a decade ago, but that is no longer a modern Nickel. Nowadays teams utilize specialized players. Just look at the Pats. They have designated slot/underneath guys (Edelman/Amendola), designated field stretchers (LaFell/Dobson), designated passing backs (Lewis/White), and designated pounders (Blount/Bolden). Everything on offense is specialized. So that's why just sliding a CB into the slot seems woefully insufficient in a modern defense.
In contrast to his defense in Houston, Wade's Denver defense is more modern because they utilize a specialized Nickel player. They don't just sub-out a LB and sub-in a DB. They sub in Bradley Roby, who is their designated Nickel player. He is a hybrid player who specializes in playing the Nickel position. These guys are typically called HSP's (Hybrid Space Players). This is a guy who can play CB, S, or LB on any single play (Tyrann Mathieu is another example). Now think about our defense. Who is our Nickel? *Note that I am not asking who slides down in the Nickel package*. Who is the Nickel player?
We don't have one because we are still living in 2005 instead of 2015. We just slide McCain/Jackson/Bouye inside and call it a Nickel. Nickel and Dime packages are even more important than your base defense these days because offenses throw so many different looks/schemes at you and you have to be able to fight back defensively and give them more versatile looks to diagnose and attack. Also, you need guys who can play in space. In Denver, Wade subs in a LB (Shaquil Barrett) who is a specialized sub-package LB. He can rush the passer, play the run off the edge, and cover. Now look at who the Texans bring in for sub-packages...Eddie Pleasant, AJ Bouye, and Justin Tuggle. Guys who can't tackle or play in space.
Now obviously this is not all Wade. Denver has stockpiled a very talented and versatile defensive roster. They have speedy pass rushers (Ware/Miller) who are huge mismatches off the edge in pass rushing situations. They have LB's like Barrett and Danny Trevathan who can play the run and cover. They have Safeties (TJ Ward/Darian Stewart) who can cover and tackle.
But Wade has updated his scheme to play to the skill sets of these guys and their talents. He still blitzes a lot but he plays much more aggressive coverage on the outside than he ever did in Houston. Look at all the top defenses in the NFL (Denver, Arizona, New York, Seattle, Carolina). What is similar about them? They all play aggressive in the secondary. They have a good pass rush and they get in your face on the outside and make you beat them in tiny windows. That's modern defense.
Remember the Packers/Pats games when Wade was DC in the 12-4 season? That was the boiling point of his failure to adapt his defense to the modern spread. That kind of stuff constantly killed us against other teams but the Pats/Packers are the masters of modern offense and they embarrassed us. Now, did you watch the Broncos/Packers game tonight? That Broncos defense is way more talented than our unit was in 2012, but philosophically they were on a completely different spectrum as well.
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Glover was our Nickel player when Wade was here. He played that role ad well, if not better than Robe & Matthieu.
I don't think that makes Denver's defense more "modern" than ours. We saw with Wade & Glover, it isn't perfect.
I think the NFL is still trying to figure it out, but with our 3 #1 corners, we might be as close to figuring it out than anybody.
Anyone notice Rahim Moore didn't dress for today's game? We spent the last 7 weeks micro analyzing the QB position & not trying to figure out what's up with the defense.
Maybe Romeo is figuring it out.
I don't think that makes Denver's defense more "modern" than ours. We saw with Wade & Glover, it isn't perfect.
I think the NFL is still trying to figure it out, but with our 3 #1 corners, we might be as close to figuring it out than anybody.
Anyone notice Rahim Moore didn't dress for today's game? We spent the last 7 weeks micro analyzing the QB position & not trying to figure out what's up with the defense.
Maybe Romeo is figuring it out.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Quin played a lot of Nickel under Frank Bush. I don't remember him playing much Nickel under Wade at all. Quin and Manning played Safety under Wade while McCain came on in Nickel and Troy Nolan and Quintin Demps were our Dime backs. In Dime he would roll down but in Nickel he was at Safety.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I think you are over signifying the differences (we played Quinn as damn near a LB in nickle) but very much appreciate your thoughtful response. Thx. Great read.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I probably am. Denver has supplied him with more weapons on defense that we ever did. I do see a significant difference in their philosophy in the secondary though. They play way more press and really get in the face of opposing WR's to disrupt timing. We rarely did/do that. Again, he also has better CB's in Denver than he did here.
People would complain during Wade's tenure that we did nothing but play pressed man on the outsides. Some of us were actually relieved that Romeo was going to use Kjax in more zone defenses.
I still think our problem then & now is that our LBs don't know how to recognize & squeeze zones leaving windows too big for our corners to defend.
bah007
Hall of Fame
That is the result of the problem. The problem is that we continue to target LBs year after year who don't have that skill set and then ask them to try to do it. The Texans apparently love to take players who play better as downhill attackers and then ask them to play in space.
I think drafting Cliett was an attempt to address the issue but you can't control injuries. Bad luck on our end there. Same with Mohamed but I have a hard time even giving the Texans credit for that one. They didn't target him for his skill set, they stumbled across him and were forced to play him out of necessity.
I don't 100% agree with Wolverine's "modern" comment but he does hit on something that I've been harping on for as long as I've been on this board. The Texans continue to draft players based on their "overall talent" instead of their "skill set". There doesn't seem to be any consideration at all given to the thought that a lot of these guys have overlapping skill sets and share the same weaknesses. So you end up with a bunch of guys on the field whose strengths don't complement each other.
That is an archaic style of talent acquisition, and does somewhat bolster Wolverine's argument (although I'm the one making this assertion, not him).
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
The best qb in the league held to 77 yds passing yds & made to look like Brian Hoyer...as important as the position is, it is just 1 position and no matter how elite level a player you have, that 1 player can only do so much....It's a team sport folks, the most team oriented game there is...& even if we do select a qb in the 1st next year, We're still gonna have to fix a ton of other things around him before we can get an honest eval. The 1 thing i definitely don't want to see is us drafting a guy high with real potential, insert him into the lineup immediately only to see him be ruined b/c we can't protect him pass pro wise...or don't put enough skill guys around him to grow with him.
I do not disagree and I'm just using your post to piggyback; It will be interesting to see how the Denver defense does against the other "best QB in the league" when they play the Patriots in a few weeks. As awesome as Aaron Rodgers is as a QB, he becomes limited when he's kept in the pocket. However, Brady is a classic pocket passer, so those various weapons at his disposal cannot be shut down if he's not pressured. That's the key for both of these QBs.
And interesting to see Manning's numbers right now. The team is carrying him at this point, which might be the first time I've ever seen that with Peyton.
Until yesterday I agree. Yesterday he mixed his style with Kubiak's & he carried his own weight, I thought.
Now he's on a team where the run game & the defense can carry their's.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
But it's just one game. Play it again in 3 weeks, or February, very good chance it would be a totally different game.
Green Bay wins consistently year after year because they have Aaron Rodgers. New England wins consistently year after year because they have Tom Brady. Yeah, the Texans have a lot of issues all over the field, but until they get that franchise QB they will not be a consistent winner year after year.
They have to find that QB and every 1st round pick they have needs to be used on it until they do. It would be nice if you could build the rest of the team at the same time with the rest of your draft, but you can draft all the JJ Watt's you want, you won't be a consistent winner, a year after year contender, until you get that QB. Not in this league. Not any more.
I was with you until you got here.
While Seattle may be the anomaly, the reason they got to where they are, is because they didn't throw 1st round picks at any & every QB that came their way.
After pick 15, it's not so bad, but top 10.. you're passing on prime talent to draft some guy that is most likely not the guy you're looking for. & with a team void of blue chips, he'll never be the guy he could be. You're stacking the deck against him.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Prime talent that does what for you??? They're not winning with Watt! You HAVE to have a QB. Until you get one, you'll be inconsistent at best no matter how many blue chips you have on the field.
We'll be mediocre, I'll give you that. But Jacksonville & Tennessee aren't winning with Bortles & Mariota either.
If we had a good OC, we'd win with the QBs we've had... we'll have a couple of 2-14 years in there as well.... but again, it's not like Jake Locker & Blain Gabbert stopped the Titans & Jags from going 2-14. They just never got the 12-4 that we did.
Or even last year's 9-7 with Ryan Fitzpatrick (who will probably take the Jets to the play offs this year).
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
You're missing my point. Yeah, you can probably win in any particular year with a Fitzpatrick if a lot of other things fall into place, but you will not be year in year out contenders with the Fitzy's of the world like Green Bay and New England are.
And Jacksonville and Tennessee (verdict still out on Mariota) are perfect examples of why it's so hard to land that QB. It ain't easy and I'm not saying the Texans get that done by drafting Goff, or Cook, or whoever they think is the best QB, with their 1st pick next year, but they have to try. Because until you get that QB you're mired in NFL mediocrity just hoping that a whole lot of things fall into place this season, maybe next season, ok, maybe the season after that.
If you're going to be consistent contenders in today's NFL, like New England, like Green Bay, like Indy, you have to have that QB. You can draft all the JJ Watt's you want and hope a lot of things fall into place that particular year, but you won't be consistent contenders EVERY year, until you get that QB.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Funny you mention Manning as he's a classic pocket passer as well yet he's had 1/2 the post season success Brady has had..Rodgers roughly the same as Manning. I say that to say that I don't think its neccessarily a "weakness" of sorts of Rodgers if he's kept in the pocket. It's coaching imo & in this case McCarthy simply didn't put together a good enough gameplan to help offset the obvious matchup problem GB's offense had with Den's defense. This won't be a problem for NE though & coaching is a distinct advantage Brady has & has had over all his counterparts for his entire career. So if Den loses to NE in a few weeks It'll be more b/c Belichick has come up with a gameplan to at the very least bring the scales to even more than how masterful Brady has been.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
What on earth are you talking about?
You suggest this as if there are all these top 5 draft pick busts at QB, and none of them ever pan out. You want the best shot at getting the best prospect at QB when that is the most important position on the field and you don't have one. The best shot is the earliest pick so you can pick the guy you want. All top 5 draft pick QB's go to bad teams with tons of holes. They either work through it or they don't. To suggest that drafting a QB with an early first round pick is somehow blasphemous is hilarious.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Oh yeah, well why is detroit 1-6 with Matt Stafford...a guy drafted to be a franchise qb whom has had some success in this league passing for over 5000 yds?
Why are the colts 3-5 with Andrew Luck, the supposed can't miss franchise qb whom has taken his team to the playoffs each of the last 3 years?
Why are the jags 2-5? Has Bortlemania not taken over Jax yet?
Why are the chargers 2-5? Is it b/c Phillip Rivers is spending too much of his time pro-creating and not enough time studying film?
There are a myriad of reasons why the teams you mentioned above win; amongst those is b/c they have a solid qb................The biggest single reason why however is b/c they have a solid core of players around that qb...........that and their organization has hit on more than just a 1st rounder in their last 2-3 drafts to keep the cupboards stacked with talent in the event they do lose a talented guy. NE loses Revis..no problem I'll just start this 7th rounder i drafted & coached up to be a solid starter. Jordy Nelson goes down for the season, no problem i'll just bring in this old veteran from the raiders and start this 2nd rounder i drafted & coached up from Utah.
Look around the league and take notice of how many really talented guys at the position are struggling or just flat out non-factors mainly b/c their team/organization neglected or waited too long to address other issues.. I'll give you a hint, i mentioned 3 of them above....and you can add to that RG3, EJ Manuel, Sam Bradford...hell i'll even put Geno Smith in this category.
The qb position is not the end-all be-all to having success.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
What's wrong with the Colts? Luck is not playing good. My guess is that it's due to injury. He's not himself. He missed a wide open AJ last night that would have won the game. But what do you think the Colts will do next year? They'll still be contenders because they have a QB.
Why is Jacksonville not moving up? Because Bortles isn't the guy. Or at least he doesn't appear to be. I did say that just because you draft a 1st rounder doesn't mean you've solved the problem. And as far as teams like Jacksonville and Tennessee go, at least they're trying (Locker, Gabbert, Bortles, Mariota). I did say also that it wasn't easy, but they're trying. What have the Texans done? They're not even trying to address the QB situation.
Why do the Raiders appear to have turned the corner? Because it looks like Carr just might be the guy. The same Carr the Texans wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. It appears the Vikings may be relevant again because they took a guy the Texans wouldn't bother themselves with.
And of course there's always anomalies like Stafford with Detroit or Rivers with San Diego, just like there are with a 6th round draft pick becoming Tom Brady. But for the most part, the normal, is that teams with the better QBs are always in the hunt year after year after year.
No, QBs aren't the end all be all. Peyton has one ring because the rest of his team usually wasn't all that. But Peyton gave them a shot every single season. Rodgers just has one ring, but his team is in the mix every single season. The Browns, Bills, Jags, Titans, Rams, Bucs, Raiders, Vikings, are never it that mix, or if they are, are just one year anomalies because everything fell right, because they don't have the QB. We'll see if the Raiders and Vikings come off that list.
David Carr and Dave Ragone are the only QBs selected by the Texans higher than 3rd round. And that was the 1st two drafts they've ever had. They haven't drafted a QB above the 4th round in 12 years. As I've said before, nobody knows if Goff, Cook, Wentz, Hackenberg, Lynch or whoever is the answer, but you damn sure know that Fitzpatrick, Hoyer, McCown, Geno Smith, and guys like that aren't. You've got to try. If you miss with Goff, Cook, etc. then so be it, but you've got to try, because drafting another JJ Watt, or Duane Brown, or Kevin Johnson, isn't going to put you in the mix year after year.
Why is Jacksonville not moving up? Because Bortles isn't the guy. Or at least he doesn't appear to be. I did say that just because you draft a 1st rounder doesn't mean you've solved the problem. And as far as teams like Jacksonville and Tennessee go, at least they're trying (Locker, Gabbert, Bortles, Mariota). I did say also that it wasn't easy, but they're trying. What have the Texans done? They're not even trying to address the QB situation.
Why do the Raiders appear to have turned the corner? Because it looks like Carr just might be the guy. The same Carr the Texans wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. It appears the Vikings may be relevant again because they took a guy the Texans wouldn't bother themselves with.
And of course there's always anomalies like Stafford with Detroit or Rivers with San Diego, just like there are with a 6th round draft pick becoming Tom Brady. But for the most part, the normal, is that teams with the better QBs are always in the hunt year after year after year.
No, QBs aren't the end all be all. Peyton has one ring because the rest of his team usually wasn't all that. But Peyton gave them a shot every single season. Rodgers just has one ring, but his team is in the mix every single season. The Browns, Bills, Jags, Titans, Rams, Bucs, Raiders, Vikings, are never it that mix, or if they are, are just one year anomalies because everything fell right, because they don't have the QB. We'll see if the Raiders and Vikings come off that list.
David Carr and Dave Ragone are the only QBs selected by the Texans higher than 3rd round. And that was the 1st two drafts they've ever had. They haven't drafted a QB above the 4th round in 12 years. As I've said before, nobody knows if Goff, Cook, Wentz, Hackenberg, Lynch or whoever is the answer, but you damn sure know that Fitzpatrick, Hoyer, McCown, Geno Smith, and guys like that aren't. You've got to try. If you miss with Goff, Cook, etc. then so be it, but you've got to try, because drafting another JJ Watt, or Duane Brown, or Kevin Johnson, isn't going to put you in the mix year after year.
You're missing my point. Green bay & New England weren't throwing 1st round picks against the wall looking for a QB. They already had one. Which allowed them to get the blue chips needed to build a team where a young Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers could grow.
Jacksonville & Tennessee have not. For all we know Jake Locker was that guy, but because they couldn't protect him, we'll never know. Marriott is already missing games because he's having to protect himself instead of refining the art of reading defenses.
Blaine Gabbert was probably that guy, but now, he's shell shocked & Bortles may be on his way to more of the same.
Maybe it's just the way I'm interpreting what you are saying. Reading your posts, I get images of Rick & O'Brien throwing darts at a draft board.
I'm not saying we should not draft a QB in the first. I'm only saying if they do, I hope they believe the guy is one in a million & not taking a shot in the dark.
I'd rather miss on that one in a million guy & end up with a Phillip Rivers, or Matt Stafford.. be mediocre. Than take a shot in the dark on a joke like Gabbert & Ponder.
Again,New England wasn't throwing darts. They were looking for a back up to their franchise QB.
Try to go back & remember the teams Tom Brady played with the first three, Mayne five years of his career. Those teams were stacked, but with Bledsoe it was as if they were waiting for him to save them, to sht magic on Sundays & win games.
But when the kid got in, that was complimentary football. Every body doing everything they could to win on Sunday.
Just imagine that Tom Brady with a defense giving up 30 points per game. Bledsoe would have retired a Patriot & Belichick would be doing Sunday morning television.