Owen Daniels/Texans playing "contract chicken"'

[Lucky]

Check out where OD is on the list of TE salaries for 2008.

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=134

Thanks for the link.

Lance Zierlein has some interesting things to say regarding the Daniels/Texans contract negotiations in his blog at the Chronic.

I think many readers are missing out on one point. While Winslow's contract isn't something that OD is going to get or even deserves, it is a barometer that EVERY TEAM AND AGENT IN THE LEAGUE now have to be aware of and possibly work off of.

Let's say that everyone wants Daniels to take the same deal Chris Cooley took in 2007 because they think that is more fair since he plays on Cooley's level. What happens if Daniels agrees to that deal, but behind the scenes, Cooley is in the process of re-doing his deal with the Redskins because the Skins recognize that Cooley's market value has changed thanks to Dallas Clark's deal and Winslow's deal? Then, OD's contract would be really outdated.

This same thing happened with Jason Peters. His agent agreed to a bad deal too early in advance and his contract was outdated within a year and he was pissed about it. Eventually it because a big issue for the Bills and they had to deal Peters (probably the top LT in the league) to the Eagles. Agents have to work off of recent contracts or they will get fired, period.

For inquiring minds that did know know the details of Winslow's contract extension, they are available at Rotoworld.

Signed a six-year, $36.1 million contract. The deal contains $20.1 million guaranteed, including his 2009 and 2010 salaries. Winslow's 2011 base salary is guaranteed for injury, but not for skill. Another $7 million is available through incentives.
2009: $5.17 million,
2010: $6.725 million,
2011: $8.29 million,
2012-2014: Under Contract,
2015: Free Agent

So Winslow gets $20.1 million over the initial 2 years of the contract ($11.9mil in salary, $8.2mil in bonus). That sounds outrageous. But you need to remember that the Bucs were $30something million under the cap, and needed to spend $$$ just to get above the salary cap floor (that like the cap, won't exist in 2010 as the CBA currently stands).

But did Winslow's deal really raise the bar on TE contracts? Dallas Clark received a similar deal in 2008 from the Colts.

2008: $11 million bonus, $605K salary
2009: Another bonus of $8.2 million, $3.3 million salary
2010: $4 million
2011: $4.2 million
2012: $4.53 million
2013: $5.33 million
2014: Free Agent

Clark will actually get more $$$ over the first 2 years of the contract than Winslow will earn. Take into account the extension Antonio Gates will get this offseason, and that Jason Witten will look to redo his deal, and it's apparent that TEs are beginning to get paid. It's now a glamor position. The cost for TEs have exploded, and are only going to rise.

Many will say that Daniels will have to come down on his price, because he could be a RFA for 2 more seasons. That's not realistic. Eventually, the NFL and the NFLPA will come to an agreement. As the players begin to understand how damaging an uncapped (and non-floored) year could be to their pocketbooks, a deal will likely be reached. Quite possibly prior to the dreaded 2010 offseason. Daniels could become an unrestricted free agent by next year. And with the monster deals TEs are receiving, franchising him would not be cheap. The Texans are in a very difficult position in terms of allocating resources for personnel and developing a reputation of rewarding their own players.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I've tried to stay out of these contract negotiation threads as much as possible other than to say that I'm not too worried and that everything will work out. One way or another. I expect OD and Demeco to get long term deals and I expect Dunta to have to play this year franchised to prove he's really back.

But all of this stuff is just normal contract negotiations. Both sides are trying to get the best deal for them. That's their jobs. I don't hold that against anyone, especially the players. There's an old saying, you don't get paid what you deserve, you get paid what you negotiate. Everybody's got to try to get the best deal they can. There's no sin in that.

The player's agents have to have an idea of what their players are worth on the open market and they've got to work with the players to come up with a basic minimum contract they'll sign for. Then they've got to try to get as much as they can but if they can't get more than that minimum, they've got to look at withholding their services.

For us fans, we want our players to be all about the team. We're all about the team. But in contract negotations, if you're all about the team, the team will use you and spit you out.

On the flip side, the team can't just cave in to player's demands or the team will end up in cap hell, paying too much for marginal players with a ton of dead money and unable to improve because there's no room. The team has to do what's best for the team and sometimes that means paying guys to stay and sometimes that means ditching guys (one way or another) and moving on.

So, let's let this just all work itself out and see what we've got when things get closer to being real.

 

[WWJD]

He signed the tender offer.

Just keep working on a longer term contract...got to be some middle ground somewhere.

 

[JCTexan]

He signed the tender offer.

Yep:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6478391.html

Pro Bowl tight end Owen Daniels has signed his one-year, $2.79-million tender with the Texans, but his agents, Alan Herman and David Butz, will continue negotiations on a multiyear contract they hope will make him one of the NFL’s highest-paid players at his position.

Daniels, a third-year restricted free agent who caught a career-high 70 passes for 862 yards last season, skipped the last week of organized team activities because he’s been unhappy that a new deal hasn’t been reached.

Those familiar with the negotiations said the Texans made a new offer last week that would rank Daniels second among the league’s highest-paid tight ends. Figures were not available.

The three most important parts of a contract are guaranteed money, income over the first three years and average per year. The total value of a contract isn’t as important because players usually get extensions before they expire.

Tampa Bay’s Kellen Winslow ($20.1 million) is first among tight ends in guarantees. After he was traded from Cleveland to the Buccaneers this year, he signed a six-year, $36.1-million contract.

Indianapolis’ Dallas Clark ($27 million) receives the most money over the first three years of his contract. He signed a six-year, $36-million deal last year.

Atlanta’s Tony Gonzalez ($7 million per year) leads in average per year because of the five-year, $35-million extension he signed with Kansas City two years ago.

Daniels hasn’t been available since he skipped the OTAs, but he did comment on his contract situation on the first day of the offseason program.

“I’d be a little upset,” Daniels said in May about the possibility of playing for the one-year, $2.79-million tender. “I think I’ve earned more than a one-year (contract). I see myself being here for a long time. I don’t want to be anywhere else, but every player wants security.”

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Yep:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6478391.html

With the type of contract Owens is expecting to be worked out based on already ridiculously unjustifiable levels out there, I wouldn't rule out a trade in his future.

 

[GP]

I think everyone wants to keep Daniels, but if the price is too high, we have to think about the entire team first.

That's where I am at.

He's a Tight End.

I like how he can get Schaub out of a jam when the blitz is on. But I'm not sure that he gets a big payday for that.

A reasonable payday is OK, but not anywhere near the same contract that Winslow got.

 

[NitroGSXR]

Maybe this is a dumb question to many of you but it'd be dumber not to ask.

Now that he has signed his tender... if him and the team come to a long term deal, what bexomes of the tender that he signed? Will they rip that up and pay him for the season despite him already earning paychecks? Like back pay? Or does a new contract begin on the day it's signed?

Hope I made sense? I think I just confused myself...

 

[Jackie Chiles]

That's where I am at.

He's a Tight End.

I like how he can get Schaub out of a jam when the blitz is on. But I'm not sure that he gets a big payday for that.

A reasonable payday is OK, but not anywhere near the same contract that Winslow got.

I don't know if I agree with not giving him a big payday because of the position he plays. I think its ok to spend, maybe even overspend, for talent and OD is a talent. I would rather overpay for a talented TE than overpay for an average (for example) LT just because that position is valued more highly. We will get into trouble if we pay average players big money like we have in the past, I have no problem giving talented players nice contracts.

Another reason I would pay him is because I highly doubt OD has hit his ceiling yet, he will continue to mature as a blocker and as our offense continues to evolve he will make more plays. If we make him the 2nd highest paid TE today he will probably be the 5th or so highest paid in 2-3 years. He is a core guy on offense IMO.

 

[Ckw]

Those familiar with the negotiations said the Texans made a new offer last week that would rank Daniels second among the league’s highest-paid tight ends. Figures were not available.

Did anyone else catch this quote from the link above?!? He turned down an offer to be the 2nd highest paid TE in the NFL?!? I really hope this isn't true otherwise I am really going to be wondering about some of our players, but especially OD and Dunta.

This is a team that has never had a WINNING season. 8-8 the past two years shouldn't get your players paid like the best players in the league, outside of Mario Williams and Andre Johnson. I really hope this is an inaccurate quote otherwise OD is nuts.

 

[dtran04]

PFT talk says that OD is represented by same group as Dunta. Makes alot more sense now. There's alot of hurt feelings and egos at hand with the agents along with Rick Smith.

 

[Buffi2]

PFT talk says that OD is represented by same group as Dunta. Makes alot more sense now. There's alot of hurt feelings and egos at hand with the agents along with Rick Smith.

My first thought here is that OD and Dunta need to find another agent. This group isn't helping themselves, the players, or the Texans. The sitting out part is just bad advice for everyone. It seems to me you play, practice and if you don't get the contract you want - you are ready to go play for someone who will pay you what you think you are worth.

I am glad OD signed. I feel better now.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Did anyone else catch this quote from the link above?!? He turned down an offer to be the 2nd highest paid TE in the NFL?!? I really hope this isn't true otherwise I am really going to be wondering about some of our players, but especially OD and Dunta.

This is a team that has never had a WINNING season. 8-8 the past two years shouldn't get your players paid like the best players in the league, outside of Mario Williams and Andre Johnson. I really hope this is an inaccurate quote otherwise OD is nuts.

If he and Dunta have the same agent , then they are trying to play the Texans . I think Dunta was offered the same deal as Chris Gamble and he didn't take it . Now OD is turning down being the second highest paid TE in the leauge . I'm betting they rue the day they hired their agents .

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

Maybe this is a dumb question to many of you but it'd be dumber not to ask.

Now that he has signed his tender... if him and the team come to a long term deal, what bexomes of the tender that he signed? Will they rip that up and pay him for the season despite him already earning paychecks? Like back pay? Or does a new contract begin on the day it's signed?

Hope I made sense? I think I just confused myself...

NOt a dumb question at all. If OD signs a new contract, his old contract is torn up. The terms of the new contract, determined by both parties, would determine what period of time the new contract would encompass (possibly retro to the signing if agreed upon).

 

[NitroGSXR]

NOt a dumb question at all. If OD signs a new contract, his old contract is torn up. The terms of the new contract, determined by both parties, would determine what period of time the new contract would encompass (possibly retro to the signing if agreed upon).

Thank you for responding.

The reason why I ask this is because I've never noticed contracts beginning on specific days but rather specific seasons. I say this because of fantasy sports and their contract standards. When one looks up contracts they're pretty much done by seasons. I never considered those who reneogitate their contracts such as the one the Andre Johnson did a couple years ago and with the fact that Owen Daniels signed his tender despite intent on continuing talks on a long term.

Really an interesting subject to me. Seems to me that contracts in the NFL are more of a permission slip to play ball. They're not worth the dollars they ink in there (outside of guaranteed dollars). Fascinating way of doing business if you ask me.

 

[alphajoker]

Per the Chron:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6478391.html

 

[JCTexan]

Per the Chron:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6478391.html

Guess you didn't see my post earlier?

 

[El Tejano]

This is good to know. The team can get him back on the field and now the agents and FO can do the negotiating. This shows that OD really wants to be here.

 

[NitroGSXR]

NOt a dumb question at all. If OD signs a new contract, his old contract is torn up. The terms of the new contract, determined by both parties, would determine what period of time the new contract would encompass (possibly retro to the signing if agreed upon).

Thank you for responding.

The reason why I ask this is because I've never noticed contracts beginning on specific days but rather specific seasons. I say this because of fantasy sports and their contract standards. When one looks up contracts they're pretty much done by seasons. I never considered those who reneogitate their contracts such as the one the Andre Johnson did to help the Texans a couple years ago and with the fact that Owen Daniels signed his tender despite intent on continuing talks on a long term contract with mega dollars. Then we have McNabb's contract being inflated in exchange of an extension.

Really an interesting subject to me. Seems to me that contracts in the NFL are more of a permission slip to play ball. They're not worth the dollars they ink in there (outside of guaranteed dollars). Fascinating way of doing business if you ask me. Why even do with contracts? Just issue them all permission slips.

 

[edo783]

This is good to know. The team can get him back on the field and now the agents and FO can do the negotiating. This shows that OD really wants to be here.

Not really. It does show that he didn't want his offer to drop to something like 500K, which it could have if he didn't sign by the 15th. The good thing here is that it buys more time to work out a deal. The bad news is that both he and Dunta are represented by the same group, which now starts to make sense as to why they are acting like they are. I suspect that their representation thinks they have the Texans in some sort of hard spot with what seems to be two of their top player being represented by them, so they are trying to jerk the Texans around. There also seems to be some sort of pissing contest going on between the agent group and GM Smith. Based on what has been purported in the press both guys were offered MORE than fair deals for their positions and level of play. These agents are screwy if they think either of them is worth the most money of anyone in the league at their respective positions.

 

[TimeKiller]

Wow, denied 2nd highest in the league? C'mon now. This is getting stupid.

 

[Ckw]

Wow, denied 2nd highest in the league? C'mon now. This is getting stupid.

My thoughts exactly. I really hope this isn't true.

 

[GP]

I don't know if I agree with not giving him a big payday because of the position he plays. I think its ok to spend, maybe even overspend, for talent and OD is a talent. I would rather overpay for a talented TE than overpay for an average (for example) LT just because that position is valued more highly. We will get into trouble if we pay average players big money like we have in the past, I have no problem giving talented players nice contracts.

Another reason I would pay him is because I highly doubt OD has hit his ceiling yet, he will continue to mature as a blocker and as our offense continues to evolve he will make more plays. If we make him the 2nd highest paid TE today he will probably be the 5th or so highest paid in 2-3 years. He is a core guy on offense IMO.

So if reports are accurate...he turned down #2 money.

Is he worth that? Is that a good investment of dollars for the position of TE?

Not to rag you too hard, but just putting a thought out there for you. I don't think he's #2 money, and I am concerned for his ability to reason and remain rational IF he indeed turned it down.

That would make TWO Texans holdouts, represented by the same agent group, doing the same stupid thing. That's IF reports are true, btw.

 

[Jackie Chiles]

So if reports are accurate...he turned down #2 money.

Is he worth that? Is that a good investment of dollars for the position of TE?

Not to rag you too hard, but just putting a thought out there for you. I don't think he's #2 money, and I am concerned for his ability to reason and remain rational IF he indeed turned it down.

That would make TWO Texans holdouts, represented by the same agent group, doing the same stupid thing. That's IF reports are true, btw.

The Chron article never specifically states that his representation flat turned that deal down. For all we know that offer could still be on the table and the sides are hammering out specifics that they don't like.

As far as paying him #2 money I have no problem with it. Winslow's deal is obviously going to be higher but if he gets this reported deal he will be the 2nd highest paid TE in football for maybe a season. Numerous TEs are in line for some extensions/raises. As far as OD's place among those TEs I would say obviously Winslow will be higher paid, Gates should be, Witten, and thats about it. Cooley and Clark are right about at his level and Gonzalez is probably better now but I doubt he will be for much longer so his contract isn't quite as relevant. The longer we hold off on OD's deal the more he is going to be paid because one or two of those guys are going to get their raise which is going to push up their salary as a position. I can see your point of view about not paying a TE that kind of money but I guess I just value him more.

 

[barrett]

What concerns me about all of this mess is that the Texans "reportedly" offered the kind of money that they did. If it's true, then I have to question that logic. I recognize that D-Rob is of greater value to the Texans than he would be to many teams in the league so I expect him to receive an offer that would be higher than he may be perceived to be worth but not the kind of offer he was "reportedly" offered, and not this year. Not when you have the luxury of the franchise tag to evaluate his play post injury.

Secondly, the supposed offer to make Owen Daniels the 2nd highest paid TE in the NFL would be a terrible mistake when we talk about value.

I continue my "wait and see" until there are more facts and less "reportedly".

 

[barrett]

Are the rules the same for the franchise tag as they are with the RFA tender as it pertains to deadlines? Does Dunta have to sign his by a certain date before the teams options change?

 

[dalemurphy]

Are the rules the same for the franchise tag as they are with the RFA tender as it pertains to deadlines? Does Dunta have to sign his by a certain date before the teams options change?

No, there is no real deadline to sign the franchise tag. The Texans could rescind the offer at any point- even a month ago... Here's the difference: since Dunta has 4+ years of service, he would become a UFA. Since OD has less than 4 years of service, he is the exclusive right of the Texans unless they cut him. Aside from the RFA tender, which they had a right to remove if unsigned starting tomorrow, the Texans only obligation in order to keep OD another year is to offer him a 10% raise from his '08 salary.

 

[dalemurphy]

The Chron article never specifically states that his representation flat turned that deal down. For all we know that offer could still be on the table and the sides are hammering out specifics that they don't like.

As far as paying him #2 money I have no problem with it. Winslow's deal is obviously going to be higher but if he gets this reported deal he will be the 2nd highest paid TE in football for maybe a season. Numerous TEs are in line for some extensions/raises. As far as OD's place among those TEs I would say obviously Winslow will be higher paid, Gates should be, Witten, and thats about it. Cooley and Clark are right about at his level and Gonzalez is probably better now but I doubt he will be for much longer so his contract isn't quite as relevant. The longer we hold off on OD's deal the more he is going to be paid because one or two of those guys are going to get their raise which is going to push up their salary as a position. I can see your point of view about not paying a TE that kind of money but I guess I just value him more.

The Texans have total control of this situation with OD. Predictably, he signed his RFA tender. Soon enough, he will feel compelled to sign the first reasonable long term deal he gets or risk not seeing UFA until after the 2011 season... which may not even happen if a new agreement isn't reached. With Demeco, OD, and Butler the Texans only have to be as generous as they want to. Those guys have to take a decent deal. It will happen!

 

[Runner]

I don't know if I agree with not giving him a big payday because of the position he plays. I think its ok to spend, maybe even overspend, for talent and OD is a talent. I would rather overpay for a talented TE than overpay for an average (for example) LT just because that position is valued more highly. We will get into trouble if we pay average players big money like we have in the past, I have no problem giving talented players nice contracts.

Another reason I would pay him is because I highly doubt OD has hit his ceiling yet, he will continue to mature as a blocker and as our offense continues to evolve he will make more plays. If we make him the 2nd highest paid TE today he will probably be the 5th or so highest paid in 2-3 years. He is a core guy on offense IMO.

It appears the Texans agree with you. They seem to value OD higher than many of the fans do. Even though he is "just a tight end", with that offer they don't act like they could just plug in the next player and get the results they want. I'm happy to see the team values its few Pro Bowlers. It seems they will count on them in its quest to improve. Go figure.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

I don't believe that this link by LZ has been posted.

I've noticed that more and more Texans fans are starting to worry about Owen Daniels and his status with the Texans. After all, Daniels has decided to stay away from practice because he is unhappy with how the contract negotiations are going and now Daniels, DeMeco Ryans and Dunta Robinson are now unhappy with their contract situations.

Daniels agents, Alan Herman and Dave Butz, aren't known as agents who hold clients out or as unreasonable negotiators. They are obviously very unhappy with the manner in which the Texans are coming up with Daniels' contract value:

We haven't even gotten to the point of talking numbers that contemporary tight ends are getting. It's frustrating we aren't there. We are talking about things that happened years ago. I mean, many years ago.

I'll translate that for you. The Texans are coming up with numbers based on contracts that were done two or three years ago and that isn't going to cut it if you want to sign Daniels to a long-term deal.

Agents holding 2 seemingly "desireable" players on the same team, negotiating for new contracts at the same time are more likely to try to "play games" and "link" negotiations and play "hard ball."

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

PFT talk says that OD is represented by same group as Dunta. Makes alot more sense now. There's alot of hurt feelings and egos at hand with the agents along with Rick Smith.

LINK

Texans Don’t Plan To Negotiate With Daniels

Although agents Alan Herman and Dave Butz reportedly hope to continue to negotiate with the Texans on a long-term deal for tight end Owen Daniels, a league source tells us that the team’s current plan is to allow Daniels to play out the 2009 season under his one-year, $2.79 million salary, before taking up the issue of a multi-year contract.

Per the source, Daniels wants to be the highest-paid tight end in the sport. To get there, he’d need a deal that averages more than Dallas Clark’s $6.9 million annual package from the Colts.

And while John McClain of the Houston Chronicle reports that the Texans already have offered a contract that would make Daniels the league’s second highest-paid tight end (the current No. 2, Kellen Winslow of Tampa, averages $6.5 million), we’re told that the Texans’ best offer would put Daniels at No. 4, between Tony Gonzalez’s $6.25 million average and Daniel Graham’s $6 million average.

Rounding out the top eight are Jeremy Shockey ($5.1 million), Chris Cooley ($4.8 million), Jason Witten ($4.6 million), and Antonio Gates ($4.4 million).

The team’s hard line with Daniels arises in part, we’re told, from the fact that he is represented by the same firm that has cornerback Dunta Robinson, the team’s unsigned franchise player - and that the Texans are irritated with the manner in which both players have been handled this offseason.

Though it’s possible that the Texans will reverse course on their willingness to sign Daniels to a long-term deal if he decides to take the best offer that has been on the table, the current position (as we understand it) is that the Texans won’t be making Daniels the highest-paid tight end in the game.

Though he has been a solid player during his first three NFL seasons, does he really merit $7 million per year?

 

[Mike Kerns]

I'll translate that for you. The Texans are coming up with numbers based on contracts that were done two or three years ago and that isn't going to cut it if you want to sign Daniels to a long-term deal.

It isnt the same world economically that it was two or three years ago.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

It isnt the same world economically that it was two or three years ago.

I think what they're really saying is that the Texans are ignoring the Winslow contract because it's ridiculous.

 

[GP]

McClain: Is he really worth $7 million per year?

HELL NO, he isn't worth 7 mill a year. Period.

Give me draft picks or give me death.

 

[dalemurphy]

I don't believe that this link by LZ has been posted.





Agents holding 2 seemingly "desireable" players on the same team, negotiating for new contracts at the same time are more likely to try to "play games" and "link" negotiations and play "hard ball."

That game won't work out very well for OD. He has no bargaining power and will eventually have to take what the Texans offer him. The only way he doesn't get signed to an extension is if he gets seriously injured or if the Texans find that Casey or Dressen or Hill is the better player. These agents are going to end up costing OD a great deal if he isn't careful.

 

[GP]

That game won't work out very well for OD. He has no bargaining power and will eventually have to take what the Texans offer him. The only way he doesn't get signed to an extension is if he gets seriously injured or if the Texans find that Casey or Dressen or Hill is the better player. These agents are going to end up costing OD a great deal if he isn't careful.

Which is what's so mind-boggling to me.

If I were the Texans FO, I'd be "irritated", as well, if I handed what is reportedly a generous offer to OD and it was not accepted.

Obviously, there might be some areas of the contract that need to be ironed out which is why it isn't signed yet. But if he plans on being a hardcore holdout...then he might have to play somewhere else when the dust settles.

Good post, Dale. Rep your way.

 

[nunusguy]

I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

 

[Runner]

I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

You list some reasons why OD isn't worth the $6M or so he's been offered. Let's ignore for a minute that the report of his "second highest salary for a TE" isn't clear to what that means (total value, next year's salary, guarantees???)


This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?

 

[disaacks3]

Wow - the link Cloak put on here earlier brings this issue into much clearer relief. OD / His Agents are trying to get north of 6mil /yr for total compensation? We love you man, but that kinda pushing it.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

This doesn't happen often but I agree completely if it is #2(assuming that it means the 2nd best TE)money that OD is asking for. In my book he isn't complete enough..yet..for that type of cash. If he skipped out on what was offered i'm not sure what to say. He is a top 5-10 so I think he or his agents are making a silly stand.

As for Runners question...I'm assuming, also..that Smithiak offered that thinking the TE landscape will again change quickly and once others get their money down the line, his contract will fall in place. Take LZs example that a guy like Cooley would then ask to get his contract reupped after seeing ODs. But the problem with that is that then you are constantly betting high on a perceived future value. I think it was too high but if it was turned down I wouldn't budge.

 

[Texecutioner]

I think OD is getting bad advice and/or is a fool.
At 240 something (and only 6'3"), he can't play for a lot of NFL teams because he's an undersized NFL TE, but fits well in Kubiaks system.
And he was a substitute pro-bowl player who got lucky when players cancelled and made his first apperance in the game and even managemend to catch a TD pass. We aren't talking about a perennial pro-bowler here like Gonzales or Schocky or Gates. OD is atleast one notch down from that level.
And his backup is pretty descent, with even better size. Then there's 2 TEs drafted this year - wakeup Owen. If you have an injury this fall and one of these other TEs steps up and has a real good day, your leverage is gone.

I agree with everything you said here other than putting SHockey on a list that Daniels isn't better than. Shockey is an ass hat that's a team cancer. He hasn't ever had a season as good as his rookie season. He was a disappointment in the easiest offense in the league last year. He's been over rated for years now. Daniels is a much better player than Shockey.

 

[dalemurphy]

You list some reasons why OD isn't worth the $6M or so he's been offered. Let's ignore for a minute that the report of his "second highest salary for a TE" isn't clear to what that means (total value, next year's salary, guarantees???)


This is a question for the group. Many people think that OD isn't worth near the money being offered. Many in the same group think "Smithiak" don't make mistakes in this area. Which is right? Daniels is not worth it or Smith is throwing money away with that offer?

Obviously, it depends on the structure of the deal. My only concern with any contract is that the organization has a plan on how to maintain salary cap health and a team that can consistently compete. If they structure a deal that pays OD exceedingly well but it fits into the cap structure in a way that allows other deals to get done, then I'm happy for OD.

Time is on the side of the organization this season, and though I do get nervous as deals don't get done, it appears Smith and company realize the strength of their bargaining position as the uncapped year looms. So, this off-season, patience is virtuous for them. Meanwhile, players and agents are very nervous about the uncertainty ahead, and are pushing as hard as they can now because things are going to get exceedingly more difficult for them over the next few months and, perhaps the next couple years.

 

[Texecutioner]

LINK

If this is the stance of Daniels and his agent, then I say that we start shopping him now and get some draft picks and tell Casey get ready. Don't want to have to do it Daniels, but you're not worth that kind of money and we loved you as a Texan and wish you all the luck in the world.

The only problem though is that a lot of other teams may be reluctant to trade for the guy if he wants that kind of money from them as well.

 

[Mike Kerns]

I think what they're really saying is that the Texans are ignoring the Winslow contract because it's ridiculous.

As they should. If he wants that type of money, I say see ya. Thats bigger than Tony Gonzalez in his prime money right there. I like OD, but give me a break.

Next offseason is going to be something...

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

The funny thing is if we were New England , we'd be called frugal and managing our cap . Since we're the Texans , we are cheap or dumb .

 

[edo783]

Obviously, it depends on the structure of the deal. My only concern with any contract is that the organization has a plan on how to maintain salary cap health and a team that can consistently compete.

That's my concern also. IMO, the offers to both Dunta and OD seem more than a bit out of whack for the level of the player and would have very negative effects on our cap when it comes to signing the likes of Mario, because he WILL get paid and some very serious coin at that. If we suck out dollars from our cap for a couple of medium level players we may not be able to secure the real stars like AJ and Mario and any others that pop up when the time comes.

 

[Mr. White]

Rounding out the top eight are Jeremy Shockey ($5.1 million), Chris Cooley ($4.8 million), Jason Witten ($4.6 million), and Antonio Gates ($4.4 million).

There's a pretty good reason why Owen Daniels isn't making more than these guys...because they're better than him. Those guys are elite and OD just isn't there yet.

Kinda like Dunta. These guys want elite pay but haven't shown elite results.

 

[TimeKiller]

There's a pretty good reason why Owen Daniels isn't making more than these guys...because they're better than him. Those guys are elite and OD just isn't there yet.

Kinda like Dunta. These guys want elite pay but haven't shown elite results.

I guess the reason now is that he won't sign. He's been offered more.

If this team continues to get better this is only going to help. Players will see that the team is in charge of the team, not agents and will deal more willingly. If the team slips back under .500 ball they'll crumble under the weight of trying to keep good players on a bad team with ridiculous contracts like Winslow's.

Demeco is still going to get a better contract than either OD or Dunta. Probably because he isn't trying to put himself in between the team and it's goals.

 

[Runner]

I'm starting to like these what if games.

I know that McCain mentioned $7M, so that sets the base for reality, but what if...

The Texans have structured a five year, $30M deal that includes a $10M roster bonus and $4M salary for the final year of the contract. OD, his agents, and the Texans would all know that there is no intention of paying off the fifth year; they'd just have him for four of his prime years and let him walk. That five year/$30M contract just went to four years/$16M. The beauty is that it make OD the bad guy when it is leaked to the press.*

I doubt the above scenario is anywhere near reality, but there are many ways that OD could legitimately reject what looks like a generous offer from the details leaked.


*I'm waiting for all the posts deploring the Texans for whining to the press.

 

[HOU-TEX]

There's a pretty good reason why Owen Daniels isn't making more than these guys...because they're better than him. Those guys are elite and OD just isn't there yet.

Kinda like Dunta. These guys want elite pay but haven't shown elite results.

I don't think they're that better than OD. They've just been doing it longer and have been consistantly good. OD's getting there and I hope both parties can come to an agreement so he can remain a Texan for a long time.

Shockey doesn't deserve to be mentioned with elite TE's.

 

[GP]

Obviously, it depends on the structure of the deal. My only concern with any contract is that the organization has a plan on how to maintain salary cap health and a team that can consistently compete. If they structure a deal that pays OD exceedingly well but it fits into the cap structure in a way that allows other deals to get done, then I'm happy for OD.

Time is on the side of the organization this season, and though I do get nervous as deals don't get done, it appears Smith and company realize the strength of their bargaining position as the uncapped year looms. So, this off-season, patience is virtuous for them. Meanwhile, players and agents are very nervous about the uncertainty ahead, and are pushing as hard as they can now because things are going to get exceedingly more difficult for them over the next few months and, perhaps the next couple years.

The structure is the only thing that I can think is holding it up.

Maybe it's based on OD having to produce some big numbers in a lot of categories, making it hard to reach the full amount of the annual dollars?

If he was handed $6 mill a year, and turned it down...then WOW.

Rep to Honoring Earl 34...you nailed it: The Patriots would be doing a smart thing, but the Texans just don't know a "good" deal when they see one. Which is irritating because it's sort of like they're saying, on Dunta and OD's value to the team, "These two guys are going to slip away and you can't reload and replace them." Which might have been true 4 years ago, but this team is inching closer and closer to being able to re-stock a player or two without much difficulty. I think we're there on offense, and defense is almost there.