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Our TEs + Heath Miller

Texan in Japan

Texan in Japan

Rookie
Howdy Ya'll,

I'm back in the states (Baltimore) for short trip and was thinking about our #1 and our TE situation. If you look at the really good teams most of them have at least 1-2 great or young/developing TEs. NE and PHI are good examples, but Colts, SD are also references.

I'm thinking that David and our offense might truly benefit from a stud like Heath Miller (6-5, 255). He could help our pass and run game, take heat of AJ and give Carr another outlet besides DD in short passing game.

Thoughts? Gotta go to work.
 
From what I understand, Joppru is healthy and working out. Supposedly he was healthy enough to play last year but he was not in football shape and probably wouldn't have gotten PT and the team didn't want to rob a roster spot. I am optimistic he plays this year.
 
Thats what I heard also but its hard to tell anybody on this board that, lol. I believe he will be back next season.
 
I understand being pessimistic on Joppru. You have good reason, and I would still love to see us add another quality TE in the draft. Miller, Miami's Everett, or Driessen would be nice additions because most good offenses have solid TE's and Bruenner and Miller is likely the weakest combo in the NFL.
 
Two good TEs that can block AND catch is a real good thing. Two young ones that will be around a few years is even better. I have no problem with taking one in the draft, just not real enthused about using the 1st pick for one. Second round "OK", but third would be more to my liking.
 
:howdy: I think TEs are complimentary players . Thats why they don't command the big bucks . Tony Gonzales held out to be paid like a WR . To say our offense won't function or we can't be a playoff without a TE is pushing it . You notice all good recieving TEs have a good running game also . Whats that tell ya .
The team has age issues on the defensive side of the ball . That needs to be addressed before we spend another high pick on a TE . :hmmm:
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
:howdy: I think TEs are complimentary players.
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Tell that to the Colts, Chiefs or Patriots. They all feature two TE sets and all three have used high picks on TE's the last few years when they already had solid TE's on the roster.

Traditional blocking TE's like Pittsburgh uses or guys like Bruenner get paid like Guards to because they are one dimensional.
 
They all can run the ball . The Chiefs use their TE the most and we beat them . They also have one of the top three OLs in the NFL . The other two teams added that piece of the puzzle in the last to years except for Pollard . Dalls Clark , Daniel Graham ,and Ben Watson are the high round picks you refer to . Are you saying the Colts TEs would be good without James , Harrison , and Wayne and an OL . I'm thinkin noooo . :banana:
 
Talent is talent. Yes, I think Dallas Clark and Marcus Pollard can play, with or without James or Harrison.

Kris Wilson was a first day pick by the Chiefs when they had the best TE in the world in Gonzo, the Colts just drafted a first day TE last year when they had Pollard and Clark (Hartsock), and Ben Wilson and Daniel Graham were both first round draft picks the last few years. If the TE wasn't that important these top teams would never have chosen one so high, much less invest multiple first or second rd picks on one.
 
My point is this . That they have the cake made , now they ice it (red cause its valentines day ) the TEs are the springles . If we had Dallas Clark last year how many more wins would we have . Ok Clark and Graham we'd probably be 7-9 .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
My point is this . That they have the cake made , now they ice it (red cause its valentines day ) the TEs are the springles . If we had Dallas Clark last year how many more wins would we have . Ok Clark and Graham we'd probably be 7-9 .
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Part of the reason we struggle is because we do not have productive TE's
 
Until we block somebody we're going to have underproductive QBs , RBs, WRs to. I'm not saying our TEs are good . I'm saying we need to hope Joppru is what CC thought . I believe our OL and DL are a higher priority . If you address these and the BPA is a TE go for it . :BananaWav
 
:howdy: Our problems are solved . Jose Canseco is 6 .04 and weighs 250 lbs and runs a 4.3 in the 40 . Plus he's all natural . He is the answer , big ,fast a real leader in the club house . :heh:
 
Vinny said:
Part of the reason we struggle is because we do not have productive TE's
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I agree. If we had a quality TE that was equally good at blocking and receiving we'd have faired better against opponents who featured the cover two. Also, it would have given us another threat in the red zone to go to besides AJ. AJ started to dissappear towards the end of the year because teams started rolling coverage to his side. Sort of what they do for TO. They have a CB playing him man to man, a safety over the top, and they roll a linebacker up underneath him. With a quality TE we could help to draw that LB away from AJ. The interior of the OLine is definately a problem, and it needs to be addressed. IMO I think Pitts should improve at LG next season, and McKinney will likely be the opening day starter at C even if we pick up a guy like Baas. Wiegert will likely be a starter too, but might be pushed by a young guy like Baas for PT. A solid #2 WR is a need as well, but I feel that we may be able to develop either Gaffney or Armstrong into that strong #2 WR. We could spend a high pick on a young stud WR, but then we'd have to develop him anyway. The other option is finding one in FA, but most guys with stats are going to want big money. Of course there are always a few bargains to be had in free agency as well. IF Joppru is healthy enough to play next season, and say we take a Heath Miller or Kevin Everett then we'd be in good shape at the TE position for years to come. Defenses would no longer be able to determine if it was a run or pass by the TE we have on the field. When we're facing a Freeney or a Jason Taylor we know that we can put a TE out there to help out the OT, and we can be assured that he'll actually help the OT instead of just being pushed aside like a ragdoll.
 
I think yall are giving a little too much credit to Heath Miller. He is a fine TE no doubt. But he is not an elite. And history backs me up when I say that if you are not an elite TE coming out of college you wont go top 20 99% of the time.

1995
RD 1 Pick 9 Brady, Kyle TE Penn State
RD 1 Pick 27 Bruener, Mark TE Washington

1996
RD 1 Pick 9 Dudley, Rickey TE Ohio State

1997
RD 1 Pick 13 Gonzalez, Tony TE California
RD 1 Pick 22 LaFleur, David TE Louisiana State

2000
RD 1 Pick 14 Franks, Bubba TE Miami
RD 1 Pick 27 Becht, Anthony TE West Virginia

2001
RD 1 Pick 31 Heap, Todd TE Arizona State

2002
RD 1 Pick 14 Shockey, Jeremy TE Miami
RD 1 Pick 21 Graham, Daniel TE Colorado
RD 1 Pick 28 Stevens, Jerramy TE Washington

2003
RD 1 Pick 24 Dallas Clark TE Iowa

2004
RD 1 Pick 6 Kellen Winslow TE Miami
RD 1 Pick 32 Ben Watson TE Georgia

The only way I think the Texans would get Heath is if they drop down. He is NOT an elite TE.
 
DC , very good post . I count 4 or 5 players who can turn a game from your list of 8yrs worth of drafts . OK Cleveland under Romeo decides he needs defense would you trade our 13th pick for Winslow jr. ? :hmmm:
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
...would you trade our 13th pick for Winslow jr. ? :hmmm:
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The Browns gave Winslow a $16.5 signing bonus. They can't trade Winslow without the remaining portion of the bonus counting immediately against the cap. Otherwise, I think Casserly would make that deal.
 
He's the only legitimate "star" on the Browns, and he's yet to play a full season. I doubt Romeo would part with him.
 
:howdy: Winslow in my meager opinion is the best tight end prospect in the last (you fill in the blank ) 10 years . If you got him at 13 he would be the BPA , even in a trade .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
DC , very good post . I count 4 or 5 players who can turn a game from your list of 8yrs worth of drafts.
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Thanks Earl 34. But it is actually 10 years worth of 1st round TE's. 98, and 99 had zero 1st round TE's.
 
Good dialogue. I too thought that OL/DL should be our focus early, but when I considered our weaknesses and BPA at 13 (or trade back) TE really screams out. Heath Miller may not be a Winslow type talent, but that's OK. His size and overall skill/potential would make him a great addition...especially if we could move down and get another pick.

Although Benny might be healed and working out, we can't predict his reliability/impact given his career to date.
 
:howdy: Bud your a broken record . I watched the Patriots TEs break every recieving record when they beat the Colts . I think it was 30 catches . :heh: Every defense has a weakness . They hide them with a pass rush . Could the Run & shoot beat the cover two ? I bet with pass protection and a running game it can .
 
I believe that a good TE is the missing ingredient to a high powered offense. Yet if we are drafting 13, I wouldn't take a TE there. I hope they go CB/LB/D-line or trade down and get OL/DL/LB/CD ..2nd round maybe a TE

next draft would be the time for a TE if Joppru won't ever be ready for I don't think we will be drafting at 13 or in the single digits ..

from what I am hearing.. 13 is too high for OL (unless it is a tackle and I'll be suprised if he get one of those) and too high for a TE... I mention no RB because Casserly's track record is ... he just doesn't get a RB in the 1st.
 
:howdy: The World Champion New England Patriots Threw to their Tight Ends TWICE :shocked against the vaulted cover two of the Colts .They ran for two hundred yards . They had five catches for the playoffs between two players , thats it .
 
when I think of how important TE's are.. and yes I am going to mention a cuss word here.. and that is Dallas Cowboys.. when you think of the glory days, and non-glory days... seems when they have a TE that is good. (maybe not great) ... their franchise does well, when they don't they tumble. Maybe it is my limited of knowledge of football history.. but I remember them good and have Cosby... after he left, they struggled.. then finally they get Troy a security blanket in Novachec.... they where good again.. Jay retires and franchise goes down.. Lafleur was always injured and franchise struggled... Time will tell with Whitten if my theory holds true
:howdy:
 
:howdy: The Cowboys had a recieving TE . I don't remember Novacek being a good blocker . Novacek was picked up after he was released by the Cardinals . Novacek was good at finding the open areas . The Cowboys had a great OL . They had a great blocking fullback ( Johnston ) and Emmitt was great at picking up the blitz . This allowed Novacek to be the second option . While Irvin who is a Hall of Fame WR was double teamed . So who is the weakest link , Alvin Harper WR . I hated the Cowboys but they were good . They drafted La Fleaur TE trying to recapture what they had . It was to late the key indgredient the OL was gone . Johnston had neck problems so did Irvin .
 
The TE position is defined by the system they play in, hence NE & other great NFL Championship teams. take the Washington Redskins when Casserly was just a scout, they drafted Don Warren "The Dutchman" in the 4th round 103 rd overall. seemed like he had a decent career, played 14 seasons, three different decades & was a member of three world championship teams. Bennie Joppru must be chomping at the bit :taz:
 
If you plan on getting a TE, I would grab Alex Smith in the 2nd, or Joel in the 3rd. I predict Miller will go around 20.
 
i'm sorry am i the only person here that thinks we have already have a pass catching TE in billy miller...i know he isn't a blocker but neither is kellen winslow jr....then you add joppru and bruener...i hate the fact that too many people are setting their eyes on a TE when the TE position isn't as important as half the other positions on the field...the tight end should be the last piece of the puzzle you try and fill not the third or fourth...we need lineman on both sides of the ball...more depth at corner and reciever...and probably another runningback...not to mention if we're not keeping Banks a vet. QB...there are more than one way to beat the cover 2...it's called a strong running game with play action to johnson deep between the safeties...or DD underneath...miller can be the pass catching TE...everyone focuses on the position because of gates and tony-g...but here's my question did either one of those teams make it to the superbowl...no...the TE won't make a team
 
keyfro said:
Everyone focuses on the position because of gates and tony-g...but here's my question did either one of those teams make it to the superbowl...no...the TE won't make a team
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Nobody is saying that we should draft a TE as the main guy. Just to compliment Johnson, and help protect Carr.
 
I think the TE can be drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round and still be as effective as a TE picked in the 1st round. What really seems to matter is how good the OL is. Look at Shockey. The Giants OL struggles and I am sure he will follow. Just like teams built 40 years ago. The OL and the DL are the building blocks. You may not see the building blocks once all the other pieces are assembled, but you can bet that when the OL and DL fall so does the team. A team can lose a WR or RB and still be successful. Try taking 2 or 3 of their OL or DL players and that team is in trouble. I would love to see the Texans pick a TE in the 1st round, if they can be assured that he will be an instant success.
 
If a TE is the no brainer pick take him . It seems a TE does not have to be a high pick to be good . For every Gonzales , Clark , or Shockey who were first round picks theres a Gates and Cosby who were college basketball players . Todd Christianson who was a fullback and Novacek were picked up off waivers . Mark Bavaro was not a high round pick 4 th rd. . The Titans got Wychek (6 th rd ). of waivers . etc etc etc
 
keyfro said:
...but here's my question did either one of those teams make it to the superbowl...no...the TE won't make a team
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This is the most horrendous example I've ever heard on here:crazy: Don't you know it takes a total team effort like good offense, good defense, and good special teams play for a team to have a chance of making it to the Super Bowl? One single position will not propel a team to the Super Bowl, but if you are getting great, and consistent productivity from that position then it will likely help your chances.

The two TE's you mentioned made a huge impact to their respective teams offense and I don't see how you can sit up here and try to discredit those guy's productivity just because their team didn't make it to the Super Bowl. The TE does play a huge role into a team's success on offense and if you ask any QB they will tell you the same thing themselves.

It don't matter how you try to spin your biased opinion about these TE's, the fact of the matter is these dudes had more of a impact to their team's offense than the WR's on their team. If a TE has the ability to lead the team in receptions and recieving yards, then how could you possibly think that cannot benefit the offense and the WR's?
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
If a TE is the no brainer pick take him . It seems a TE does not have to be a high pick to be good . For every Gonzales , Clark , or Shockey who were first round picks theres a Gates and Cosby who were college basketball players . Todd Christianson who was a fullback and Novacek were picked up off waivers . Mark Bavaro was not a high round pick 4 th rd. . The Titans got Wychek (6 th rd ). of waivers . etc etc etc
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Picking a guy up off the the street to become a solid TE is rare, and other postions have players that come from nowhere as well. This is one of the toughest positions in the NFL, and the game changes and evolves, so in today's NFL the TE is more important than ever. It's pretty obvious if you look around the league.
 
:howdy: I believe TEs are being picked higher I don't know if it means their better . If you go to NFL .com , then to NFL draft . You can isolate by positions since 1982 . Its interesting to see higher picks being used on a TE . I do not believe I (as in me ) would not pick a TE in the first 2 rounds . My picks of needs in order of priority . DL , OL , CB , RB , TE , WR , LB , S , QB , P , K .
 
That is because the nature of the game is changing. Teams use more slot WR/TE hybrid receivers now then ever before. Defenders are quicker and larger and the use of larger men in the slot has been the trend the last few years (used to be tiny, quick guys in the slot almost exclusively). TE's don't always play "tight" to the line now and split out to create mismatches (we can't do that because its hard to fake a blocker in Miller and hard to fake a threat in the passing game in Bruenner...teams just don't respect Miller as a blocker or Bruenner as a receiver) and are deeply incorporated into the passing schemes of many of the NFL's top offenses.
 
Then your not looking for a true do the dirty work type of TE . Your looking for a bigger version of a wide out . Winslow jr. was perfect for that role . Joppru was rumored to have the best hands on the team but I don't know about the speed element . I bet Mike Williams in 5 years will weigh in at 240 . He and Winslow might be the same type of player . :hmmm:
 
No, you are talking about the 70's and 80's TE who's primary duties were simply blocking and catching the occassional pass. I'm talking about guys like Gonzo, Gates, Wiggins, Pollard, Clark, Winslow, Shockey, McMichael, Crumpler, Watson, Heap, Stevens, Graham, Troupe, L.J Smith, and Kris Wilson. Hopefully Joppru is one of them because we don't have one on our roster otherwise.
 
Some of the guys on your list are not so good . Stevens if he's the Seahawk guy is more of a Cowboy player cause hes in trouble with the law . He's also a bust . Watson though a high pick did not play much . Graham caught a pass a game in the playoffs for the Pats . Mcmichael was a 4th rd pick . Up until this year Ben Coats a 5th rd. pick had the most catches by a TE . Maybe that was Shannon Sharpe a 7 th rd. pick . who was not a blocking TE but a pass catcher first who you stick in the slot to run by big LBs . and can push by safetys . You can have Watson and Stevens I'll take Coats and Sharpe . Now can I go and draft with the 1st round picks you gave up for these guys .
 
All the players I listed can play. If you can't see that I can't help you. I can name 4th, 5th, 6th round players on several teams that made the pro bowl at every positon on the field...So what? Watson was on IR all year, Stevens is a young player that is developing. Your knowledge of the players and their situations is weak.

The Patriots spread out the Eagles with WR's because it kept them out of their base defense. To say Graham wasn't one of the factors in their reguar season is just being ignorant of reality. Either that or I guess they were morons for spending first round picks on a useless position.

You can have Coates and Sharp because last time I checked they are out of the league and too old to play.
 
:howdy: You realize Graham only had 30 catches right . Stevens had 31 . They both came out of the 2002 draft . Stevens has 63 for a career . I 'm not ignorant anymore I see the light . I'll take Gates the FA basketball player he had 81 with 13 TDs this year .
 
I think your last post signals the fact that I'm done debating you.

Football is a complex game and has 11 players on the field at once. The positions are not mutually exclusive and weakness is always exploited in the NFL.
 
:howdy: Its really not if my OL can drive your DL off the ball your dead . Theres nothing more demoralizing than 5 yds a pop . If I can hold you to 3 a pop I usually win . This is against the cover two or any defense . If they bring up eight you have a deep threat now . It has nothing to do with a slot guy . The Eagles had 3 pro bowl DBs and lost .
 
I'm not sure what the arguement is about. Being able to run the ball well is great, but what's the harm in having more than one way to beat a team. You know ... just in case that other team happens to gameplan before hand and is able to take away your strength. I know that the chances of that happening on an NFL level are slim to none, but just in case why not try to have more than one way to beat a particular defense. So if that's the case wouldn't it be handy to have a TE who can block and catch well rather than one who catches well and one who blocks well. Do we have to pick one of these 'hybrid' TEs high in the draft? Not neccessarily. We can find value picks like Everett or Driessen, and we can hope that Joppru is healthy. I'm not sure what the hang up is about TEs. They're an integral part of the offense, and they must be versatile enough to be a receiver and a blocker. It seems as though people are making it out to be like the Texans are trying to take a waterboy with one of their draft picks.
 
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