Orlando Pace a Texan? | Day 2

[Blake]

I hear alot of talk about getting 2 first round picks for Pace, but I have to ask everyone, does shouldnt our #1 pick being in the top half, hold more water than lower 1st round picks?

***Note This thread has more replies, and views, in 18 hours, than the Sharper trade had in over a week. Amazing.

 

[ccdude730]

the texans arent going to give away 2 first round picks to the rams, its just not gonna happen. nobody is worth that.

id still rather see us address C before LT, but thats why i dont run things

 

[Blake]

the texans arent going to give away 2 first round picks to the rams, its just not gonna happen. nobody is worth that.

id still rather see us address C before LT, but thats why i dont run things

I believe you can upgrade the C position in the draft. There are 3-4 center's that I believe would be able to do a better job than Steve. But the LT position, there is only 1 player I think would be better than Wand, and not by much.

 

[ccdude730]

well the reason i say that is because if we have a dominating center - and he might come from the draft - but wouldnt that allow him to take a DT 1 on 1 while letting the guard help the LT when matching up on a very good passrusher?

no doubt pace is an upgrade, thats obvious. but why make such a big commitment to a player when he might not completly solve the equation. thats my only beef with these actions.

my idea would have been to get a new center, preferrably from the draft, and continue to work with wand who will deffinatly get better as time goes on.

 

[Blake]

I see your points. But I have to ask you a question. If the center gets the DT, and the LG, and LT get the DE, who gets the 1-2 linebackers doing a delayed blitz?

Also with run blocking, Pace will not get help with his man. The center will probably shoot through and get a linebacker.

You want a LT who can take on a DE without help. When ever you have to use 2 on 1 at any position, you are weakening the whole team.

Same thing on the other side of the ball. If a CB needs help to contain a WR, that means the rest of your team is playing 9 vs. - 10 football.

 

[ccdude730]

well we are getting into what ifs, but hopefully the qb either knows this or a back is ready to throw a block or he buys some time and moves around in the pocket. several scenarious...but again - this is a what if and nobody knows what will happen

we did pretty well i thought with the zone blocking toward the end of the season. looked like the line started to gel and DD was doing good.

i want a LT who can take on a DE without help also - but when you go up against d freeney and a few others, all you can do is double...

 

[Erratic Assassin]

Our goal was a veteran line with young developing, emerging skill players. With Pace we have what we wanted in Boselli all along. A veteran line with one of the best Tackles in the league to support young, developing skill players.

It's like having a Bruce Matthews in place in order to give Brad Hopkins enough time to develop at his own pace.

Having Orlando Pace will give Seth Wand time to develop.

 

[gcolby]

I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. I spend a good chunk of time trolling the NFL pages in all the other NFL cities (I'm a programmer, it's automated), and I've been reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch for 5 years now. The Rams have issues with this guy during every off-season. They have issues with him reporting in training camp. And yes, they HAVE had issues with his durability when you get deep into the season.

Pace has been a fine OT, but he is also one that has been run into the ground, and he is one that wants too much money. The fact that the Rams have been unable to make a deal with his agent for THREE YEARS RUNNING should give you a good idea about how reasonable Pace and/or his agent is. Don't forget, when you apply the Franchise tag in successive years, you pay the average of the top 5 players at the position OR you pay a 20% increase over the previous year's salary, whichever is more favorable to the player. So Pace got two 20% raises in a row. That had to have hurt the Rams capwise, and I'm sure they'd have given anything to change the siging to a long-term deal so as to forgo the cap hit, but they were unable to.

Pace's pay demands are not going to change just because he came to Houston. He has consistently demonstrated a 'me first' attitude that all of you slam other players for. He was 'me first' on a team when it was a perennial Super Bowl contender; how do you think he is going to react when he lands on a team that just hopes to make the playoffs before his knees go out? Casserly's MO for the Texans has been to stay away from this kind of selfish player.

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill.

Glen

 

[Marcus]

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill. Glen

I agree. To be honest, I hope the deal falls through.

 

[Tailgate]

You guys are DEFINITELY in the minority. And thats for a reason. Pace would immediately improve ALL facets of our offense. Yes he costs money, yes he isnt 24.... but again, he is an immediate impact.... and a known result.

What if we kept our first rounder and drafted a bust? What if Wand NEVER materializes? There are a bunch of what ifs in the original scenario I am willing to risk to take a for sure thing....not only a for sure thing... but a frickin ALL PRO left tackle.

As long as we dont give up anything more than a 1st... and a player or maybe a 3rd... then its definitely worth it.

 

[ccdude730]

if you want to include what ifs dont forget "what if he gets the injury bug and doesnt play up to his all pro potential" pace would cut down the sacks but he would not eliminate them. the rams gave up plenty of sacks last season

I agree. To be honest, I hope the deal falls through.

me too

 

[beerlover]

I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. I spend a good chunk of time trolling the NFL pages in all the other NFL cities (I'm a programmer, it's automated), and I've been reading the St. Louis Post Dispatch for 5 years now. The Rams have issues with this guy during every off-season. They have issues with him reporting in training camp. And yes, they HAVE had issues with his durability when you get deep into the season.

Pace has been a fine OT, but he is also one that has been run into the ground, and he is one that wants too much money. The fact that the Rams have been unable to make a deal with his agent for THREE YEARS RUNNING should give you a good idea about how reasonable Pace and/or his agent is. Don't forget, when you apply the Franchise tag in successive years, you pay the average of the top 5 players at the position OR you pay a 20% increase over the previous year's salary, whichever is more favorable to the player. So Pace got two 20% raises in a row. That had to have hurt the Rams capwise, and I'm sure they'd have given anything to change the siging to a long-term deal so as to forgo the cap hit, but they were unable to.

Pace's pay demands are not going to change just because he came to Houston. He has consistently demonstrated a 'me first' attitude that all of you slam other players for. He was 'me first' on a team when it was a perennial Super Bowl contender; how do you think he is going to react when he lands on a team that just hopes to make the playoffs before his knees go out? Casserly's MO for the Texans has been to stay away from this kind of selfish player.

No thanks. Pass on Pace. It ain't worth it. Draft an OT with 10+ years left in him, rather than get a franchise OT with maybe 3-4 years left and a bank account he wants to fill.

Glen

AGREED​

the cap hit alone would stunt the Texans growth for years, how much $$$$ would the Texans then have tied up in the offensive line alone & just when Wand is ready to take the reigns he'll also command big $$$$ & thats assuming the Texans can absorb the cap hit now in the short term. no thanks I'd rather draft & develop our own people.

 

[JustBonee]

Two years ago at this time, I was really excited at the talk of Pace coming to the Texans. This time around, I have my reservations about signing him. Too many questions about him .. his attitude and play ethics... talk about a BIG head .. in more ways than one.
Can't say I didn't enjoy watching him during his days at Ohio State though. He's been a fun player to watch! ..........

The award winner: Pace was among the most decorated players of all-time as the first sophomore to ever win the Lombardi Award and the first two-time winner taking the award again as a junior. In that junior season, Pace won the Outland Trophy and finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy voting behind Danny Wuerffel, Troy Davis and Jake Plummer.

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_100_Players/Top_100_Players_29_Orlando_Pace.htm
But I worry about his baggage at this point, playing at the end of his career. Does he have enough left to give, and at what price to the future of the team?

 

[Runner]

I'm not real hot on Pace either. Yes he'd have an immediate impact, but I worry about the long term consequences. I think we should shore up the interior of the line, and we can do that for less money.

Although the NBA isn't a direct comparison, I'm a big fan of the Spurs, and their long term approach (with a lucky draft lottery) has paid off. It was tough in the beginning and middle years though.

 

[nunusguy]

I'm defintely in the minority on this one, because I think Pace is not worth our first round pick 'plus extras' as the AP news story said. Glen

Hey Gcolby, you make a lot of good points and I agree with many of them. But you know how Cass and Capers have been telling us that Wand was showing development and was gonna get it done this year - I think what we
have here is a lot of rationalizing and wishful thinking on the part of the Texans about Wand and when the opportunity came along to acquire the
best perceived solution since Bosseli to protect Carr's blindside and just
in general upgrade the whole offense with a "second chance" to get a
Bosseli - they seized the opportunity.

 

[Marcus]

He could play at a Hall of Fame level for another 7 years. Plus he is better than anyone we get w/13pick. Why are some people so objective toward a 5 time Pro-Bowler and our 1st Hall of Famer(when he comes here).

What's wrong with being objective? I think you might want to choose a different word.

 

[O.G.]

He could play at a Hall of Fame level for another 7 years. Plus he is better than anyone we get w/13pick. Why are some people so objective toward a 5 time Pro-Bowler and our 1st Hall of Famer(when he comes here).

I would have to agree. Who's out there at the 13th pick and a pic in the 3rd round that will be a pro bowler this year? This year is a good draft on corners and wide receivers but everything else is so so. People are still trying to figure out who the the top 5 picks will be, those are changing daily. Plus, we can't forget 13th pick is going to hit us for some money as well as signing bonus or holding out etc.

 

[TexanBacker93]

I'd hate to see the Texans give up too much of their future to get Pace, but if they can get him for no more than one 1st round choice and some lower picks I don't think you can turn it down. Pace will improve the blocking in a domino like effect. This will give Carr a few extra seconds to make the throw he needs to make. It will allow the Texans to use the TE in pass routes more often. This can only help.

It wasn't Pace not reporting for camp that was the problem. He couldn't without a contract. The Rams wouldn't give him the long term he wanted. His agent was one of the Poston brothers. By far the worst thing to happen to NFL players. 95% (a number I am using only for emphasis, but most of them do involve the Postons) of contract disputes/holdouts are their clients. Pace has fired them and has a new agent. This will make dealings much better.

 

[Team-Sport]

Can they really get 2 first rounders for him? TO and Corey Dillon were traded for 2nd rounders, I can't see Pace being worth that much more. I'd definantly give up a 1st and 3rd though since a player drafted at 13 probably has a 5% chance of being as good as Pace is.

Terrell Owens was viewed by many as a cancer, and Corey Dillon was coming off a sub-par year. IMO, they do not compare with Pace, who is ranked by some pubs as a TOP 10 Player. (Not just Top 10 O-Linemen, Top 10 Period.)

 

[Tailgate]

if you want to include what ifs dont forget "what if he gets the injury bug and doesnt play up to his all pro potential" pace would cut down the sacks but he would not eliminate them. the rams gave up plenty of sacks last season

But you can also equate those HEALTH what ifs to a draft pick, etc as well. (see Joppru).

But you cant equate thier FOR SURE play as you can in Pace. And ALL PRO play at that.

 

[Blake]

It wasn't Pace not reporting for camp that was the problem. He couldn't without a contract. The Rams wouldn't give him the long term he wanted.

Everybody read this one more time. It says that he didnt report to camp because of contract disputes. Its not like he didnt want to go, its the fact that the Rams, and Pace, couldnt work out a deal, and you dont go to camp without a contract.

 

[Team-Sport]

The Rams had the 8th ranked defense in the NFL that season.

Yeah, in 1999, we had one of the easiest schedules, and routinely jumped out to huge leads and coasted to victory. I think any knowledgable football fan would agree it is much easier to play Defense when your opponent has to shut down their Running Game and get Pass Happy (although the Rams actually get away with it). In 2000, the Rams Defense returned with almost all its starters and gave up over 500 points on a much tougher schedule.

My Point? If your Offense can routinely jump out to big leads, a suspect Defense will appear to be better than it actually is. However, if you get into close games - like a playoff game might likely be - you will need to have decent Defensive Personnel.

 

[Lucky]

But I worry about 'the baggage' at this point.

The "baggage" Pace carries has to do with getting a contract worked out with the Rams. Orlando has gotten the franchise tag 3 years in a row. After his rookie contract, Pace has never received the long term contract that players of his stature get. The responsibility for the acrimony that ensued was due as much the disjointed Rams front office (that likes to negotiate through the media) as it was Pace's choice of the Postons as agents. Pace dumped the Postons, bargained in good faith with someone in the Rams FO, and still couldn't make a deal with a team that he has excelled with for years.

Loyalty cuts both ways. Then Pace comes to Houston and agrees to a deal in a day. That tells me that maybe the Rams deserve to carry some of that "baggage".

 

[infantrycak]

The "baggage" Pace carries has to do with getting a contract worked out with the Rams. Orlando has gotten the franchise tag 3 years in a row. After his rookie contract, Pace has never received the long term contract that players of his stature get. The responsibility for the acrimony that ensued was due as much the disjointed Rams front office (that likes to negotiate through the media) as it was Pace's choice of the Postons as agents.

Yup. I tend to agree that players like Pace, Jones and Darius that get repeat franchised (and in the process are being told you are worth top money) have a complaint. When a CBA extension gets worked out I won't be surprised at all to see the franchise tag get re-worked.

 

[Team-Sport]

Yup. I tend to agree that players like Pace, Jones and Darius that get repeat franchised (and in the process are being told you are worth top money) have a complaint. When a CBA extension gets worked out I won't be surprised at all to see the franchise tag get re-worked.

I agree 100%. Although the Franchise Tag directly impacts very few players, teammates of tagged players are affected by the holdouts that often result. Pace's teammates are on his side on the one hand, and not appreciating him holding out on the other hand. Either way, the NFLPA will likely strongly oppose a similar Tag arrangement in the next CBA.

Let UFA's really be Free Agents, I guess. The downside is that the great players will routinely leave their teams for ones that have the greater cap space to give them. Edgerrin James would have already been signed by someone, and so would Pace. Compensation is the only debate, since most teams won't give up 2 #1s for a Franchise-type player.

The Rams made a very generous offer ($51M) to Pace, IMO, that fits OUR Cap. Pace is saying - in essence - that he really doesn't care what our Cap issues are, just "Show me the money". Part of that stance is probably due to this being the 3rd Consecutive year being Tagged. Bridges are burning.

 

[TheOgre]

A good rule would be that a team cannot franchise tag the same player in consecutive years. That is an easy solution to the problem IMO.

 

[Blake]

The Rams made a very generous offer ($51M) to Pace, IMO, that fits OUR Cap. Pace is saying - in essence - that he really doesn't care what our Cap issues are, just "Show me the money".

I wonder if maybe the 51 million dollar deal wasnt favorable to him. Maybe some clauses it that he didnt like.

 

[TheOgre]

Pace has been a great player. His issues with the Rams have all stemmed from the lack of a long-term deal.

The Bengals were lucky to get a 2nd for Corey Dillon because RB's don't last long and he has milage on him. Also, there is a perception he is a whiner, and that hurt his value. Personally, I would whine too if I had to endure the type of teams he did in Cincinnati.

T.O. was run out of town. The 49ers just got whatever they could. He is worth about 2 1st rounder IMO.

 

[Texans32]

we just need to get pace cause he's awesome and would help out our line a whole lot

 

[Vinny]

The other thread is quite long and I am starting a new one so we can have two enourmous threads to dig through instead of one.

This would be the biggest transaction for a player since we got the rights to Earl Campbell. I can't remember trading for a more dominant position player here in Houston since then (if it works out of course). Fingers crossed.

 

[dmt217]

You guys are DEFINITELY in the minority. And thats for a reason. Pace would immediately improve ALL facets of our offense. Yes he costs money, yes he isnt 24.... but again, he is an immediate impact.... and a known result.

I wonder if Capers is getting flashbacks of his coaching job at Carolina...I'm sure we all know what happened, right?

 

[TheOgre]

I hear alot of talk about getting 2 first round picks for Pace, but I have to ask everyone, does shouldnt our #1 pick being in the top half, hold more water than lower 1st round picks?

No it is 2 1st rounders regardless of where they are. It is something you have to consider before you make a move like this.

It is like if someone said, "Bring in 5 canned goods and you get a free blender." If all you have is 5 cans of lobster bisque (expensive), you have to ask yourself if it is worth it. Whereas the guy with 5 small cans of tomato sauce might jump on that deal.

 

[TheOgre]

*EDIT* (nothing to see here)

 

[Hervoyel]

Rename the old thread to something like "Orlando Pace Day 1" and if people keep posting at this "pace" then tomorrow add "Orlando Pace Day 3".

Just a suggestion.

 

[Team-Sport]

I wonder if maybe the 51 million dollar deal wasnt favorable to him. Maybe some clauses it that he didnt like.

No doubt. He wanted a deal identical to Walter Jones. Walter Jones' $52M deal is heavily front loaded (I believe $27M is pretty much guaranteed). The Rams still have a big Cap Hit from Kurt Warner, and possibly another one coming for Kyle Turley. What Pace is doing IMO, is using the Texans to negotiate a deal with the Rams. It may or may not work. The Rams FO has a good poker face right now. They probably think Pace is actually bluffing, and using the Texans to do it.

ANOTHER ITEM ->> WHY NOT 2 1st Rounders for Pace?
Think about this. This year's #13 is not particularly high. If your team goes to the playoffs in 2005, the 2006 #1 pick might be somewhere in the mid-20s, almost in high 2nd Round territory.

 

[Lucky]

...They probably think Pace is actually bluffing, and using the Texans to do it.

Pace knows for the 1st time what he's worth on the market. He won't sign for less. If the Rams don't trade him, he'll likely holdout through camp and the preseason. Maybe even into the season to try to force a trade. The best time to deal Pace is now, before the draft where the Rams can get some value for the '05 season. The Rams FO better wise up, this isn't a bluff.

 

[Blake]

ANOTHER ITEM ->> WHY NOT 2 1st Rounders for Pace?
Think about this. This year's #13 is not particularly high. If your team goes to the playoffs in 2005, the 2006 #1 pick might be somewhere in the mid-20s, almost in high 2nd Round territory.

Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace?

 

[F-minus67]

I think the reason why he had trouble with the contract the rams proposed was that they tried to low ball him on the signning bonus.

 

[Vinny]

Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace?

I would. Kennedy is not real special and a back close to Jackson is much easier to find than dominant LT's.

 

[Team-Sport]

Would you give up #12 pick, Jimmy Kennedy, & #24 pick, Steven Jackson, for the rights to sign someone like Pace?

Sure?

 

[Xman]

If the Rams refused to deal - could we trade down and only give up 2 low 1st round picks?

If so, we could work out a deal to swap our #13 for two low #1s - according to the NFL draft pick chart, the numbers are fair. Of course we migh have to add a low pick or two to make the deal work.

for instance:
we could deal #13 to Philly for #31 and #35 (a fair pick as shown by the chart numbers below) - then add a little to the #35 (like a 3rd or 4th) to swap it with NE at 32 or Pitt at 30.
- -according to the NFL Draft Pick Value Chart (on ESPN), that most GMs consult to valuate their draft picks (I think JJ made this a hot item a few years back) - The #13 pick is worth 1150 points; #31=600; #35=550.
#32 is worth 590 points; our 4th rounder (#108) is worth 78 points, so a swap of #35 and #108 is worth #30 or #32.

Or, could we trade #13 (1150) and 78 (200) to Dallas for #20 (850) and 42 (480). Then work with the teams with the few picks to see if thye would like to move up to 20 or down to 42 or 47.

Either way, we could trade our #13, and add another draf tpick or two (a 3rd at the most) to get 2 low 1st rounders.

 

[Xman]

Draft Pick Value Chart
Round 1 Round 2 Round 3 Round 4 Round 5 Round 6 Round 7 Other
1 3000 33 580 65 265 97 112 129 43 161 28 193 15.2 225 2.9
2 2600 34 560 66 260 98 108 130 42 162 27.6 194 14.8 226 2.8
3 2200 35 550 67 255 99 104 131 41 163 27.2 195 14.4 227 2.7
4 1800 36 540 68 250 100 100 132 40 164 26.8 196 14 228 2.6
5 1700 37 530 69 245 101 96 133 39.5 165 26.4 197 13.6 229 2.5
6 1600 38 520 70 240 102 92 134 39 166 26 198 13.2 230 2.4
7 1500 39 510 71 235 103 88 135 38.5 167 25.6 199 12.8 231 2.3
8 1400 40 500 72 230 104 86 136 38 168 25.2 200 12.4 232 2.2
9 1350 41 490 73 225 105 84 137 37.5 169 24.8 201 12 233 2.1
10 1300 42 480 74 220 106 82 138 37 170 24.4 202 11.6 234 2
11 1250 43 470 75 215 107 80 139 36.5 171 24 203 11.2 235 1.9
12 1200 44 460 76 210 108 78 140 36 172 23.6 204 10.8 236 1.8
13 1150 45 450 77 205 109 76 141 35.5 173 23.2 205 10.4 237 1.7
14 1100 46 440 78 200 110 74 142 35 174 22.8 206 10 238 1.6
15 1050 47 430 79 195 111 72 143 34.5 175 22.4 207 9.6 239 1.5
16 1000 48 420 80 190 112 70 144 34 176 22 208 9.2 240 1.4
17 950 49 410 81 185 113 68 145 33.5 177 21.6 209 8.8 241 1.3
18 900 50 400 82 180 114 66 146 33 178 21.2 210 8.4 242 1.2
19 875 51 390 83 175 115 64 147 32.6 179 20.8 211 8 243 1.1
20 850 52 380 84 170 116 62 148 32.2 180 20.4 212 7.6 244 1
21 800 53 370 85 165 117 60 149 31.8 181 20 213 7.2 245 0.95
22 780 54 360 86 160 118 58 150 31.4 182 19.6 214 6.8 246 0.9
23 760 55 350 87 155 119 56 151 31 183 19.2 215 6.4 247 0.85
24 740 56 340 88 150 120 54 152 31.8 184 18.8 216 6 248 0.8
25 720 57 330 89 145 121 52 153 31.2 185 18.4 217 5.6 249 0.75
26 700 58 320 90 140 122 50 154 30.8 186 18 218 5.2 250 0.7
27 680 59 310 91 136 123 49 155 30.4 187 17.6 219 4.8 251 0.65
28 660 60 300 92 132 124 48 156 30 188 17.2 220 4.4 252 0.6
29 640 61 292 93 128 125 47 157 29.6 189 16.8 221 4 253 0.55
30 620 62 284 94 124 126 46 158 29.2 190 16.4 222 3.6 254 0.5
31 600 63 276 95 120 127 45 159 28.8 191 16 223 3.3 255 0.45
32 590 64 270 96 116 128 44 160 28.4 192 15.6 224 3 256 0.4

 

[keyfro]

look bottom line is carr would finally have someone dependable to protect his blindside...giving him an actual chance to throw the ball and open up lanes for DD to run through...plus it would give indy a much harder time to sack carr with freeney out of the equation with pace on his side

 

[dirty steve]

i wouldn't say freeney would be out of the question, but it would ease the concern a little.

 

[SESupergenius]

3 more hours until decision time.

 

[infantrycak]

look bottom line is carr would finally have someone dependable to protect his blindside...giving him an actual chance to throw the ball and open up lanes for DD to run through...plus it would give indy a much harder time to sack carr with freeney out of the equation with pace on his side

The guys on 610 am this morning were speculating that Pitts would look like a pro-bowler at LG if he wasn't worried about assisting weak players on each side of him.

Ses, isn't the deadline 3 pm Wednesday?

 

[erickwsmom]

Yep, the deadline is Wednesday at 3 pm

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Big trades in Houston football history , the Oilers got Leon Gray from New England . That trade really solidified the OL .

 

[Team-Sport]

For What Its Worth

Someone on Rams Talk is saying the Rams and Texans have agreed in principle on a Pace Trade, with the Rams getting the Texans #1 Picks in 2005 and 2006. It was reportedly announced on the NFL Network.

I Would Take This With a Grain of Salt. I will believe it when I read an actual News Report.

 

[SESupergenius]

My bad, wishfull thinking.