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Mathias Kiwanuka versus Mario Williams
- Thread starter texansfaninla
- Start date
Wolf
100% Texan
I can't believe yall are comparing these two..
We are asking Mario to become the Michael Strahan of the Texans where Kiiwanuka has to just be a role player right now and work off of Strahan and Osi Umenyiara with william joseph at Dt..
Heck Mathias isn't even playing against the starters.
Unbelieveable.
and yes Mario hasn't provided stats in preseason, I am willing to wait and see when it really is time to "get after it" and go from there
We are asking Mario to become the Michael Strahan of the Texans where Kiiwanuka has to just be a role player right now and work off of Strahan and Osi Umenyiara with william joseph at Dt..
Heck Mathias isn't even playing against the starters.
Unbelieveable.
and yes Mario hasn't provided stats in preseason, I am willing to wait and see when it really is time to "get after it" and go from there
LBC_Justin
Rookie
I agree but if there was a postion that Bench press mattered it is for Linemen who use their upperbody strength on every play. Being 266 pounds and wanting to be a stud DE in the National Football League and only benching 225 pounds 17 times. That is a big Red Flag. 17 times, that is very very low.Vinny said:
Combine that with a below average Vertical Jump, which many scouts believe is a key component of explosiveness.
I am not saying he isn't going to be a good player, but lets not even act like he would have been a logical pick before Mario Williams, which is what the first post in this topic is putting up for debate.
LBC_Justin
Rookie
If all it took was heart, then that guy from the Movie "Rudy" would be a star in the NFL.Vinny said:
If all it took was technique then Jerry Rice would still be the best WR in football.
If all it took was brains then the Patriots would just send Coach Bill out on the field and wouldn't have even needed Tom Brady.
If all it took was confidence then Muhammad Ali would be our QB.
If all it took was instinct, then guys like Elway and Montana would still be starters instead of owning Car dealerships.
But for some strange reason all the O-line men now weight around 300 pounds, and the wide recievers and defensive backs are superfast and can jump high.
.....wait a second. Maybe physical characteristics, and measurables are somewhat important.
TexanStatGuru
Practice Squad
Ummm....also try comparing apples to apples. Kiwanuka played one game that M.Williams sat and he did not play even one whole quarter against the opponents 1s. All he did was play against 2s and 3s. Gimme a break.
HeartofHouston
Waterboy
like it was stated some people's responbilities are different in the defense. Some people are meant to pin their ears back and some people are meant to take up blockers and free other people up around them and some people are meant to do both. It just all depends on your Coaches.
So I wouldnt look into this too much and beside as stated b4 Kiwi has been against 2s and 3s while Mario gets the ones and his time is often shorten cause he's a starter and we want to keep him healthy..
So I wouldnt look into this too much and beside as stated b4 Kiwi has been against 2s and 3s while Mario gets the ones and his time is often shorten cause he's a starter and we want to keep him healthy..
TK_Gamer said:
There was one play against StL, with Weaver playing DT, and Peek on the weakside DE.
It was kinda like a stunt. Peek(who looks a lot bigger than 270lbs) gets a great jump off the ball & crashes the LT into the LG........ Weaver comes around & runs through the Tailback as he drops a hammer on MarcBulger.....
it wasn't a sack(Bulger got rid of the ball quick) but Dunta got burnt, and if it wasn't for the hurried throw, it would have been 6 for StL.
This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
Vinny said:
I'm not arguing with you...... but did you see. In the Denver game, there was a tightend...... #88. One on one, he'd lock up with Mario, and he stayed in front of Mario for the whole play.
Then Babin got chest to chest with him, and blew him up with is arms(a bench press move) knocked 'ole 88 back two or three steps, then moved on to the Tailback.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
TANGENT WARNING:
I used to train with the Air Force strength coach from back in the early 90's when they had that dominating rushing attack. Although it's definitely not entirely responsible for their success, he shifted the strength training emphasis for linemen from bench press to incline bench press. His theory was that linemen generally don't interact with each other in the same plane as the straight bench press and that the incline bench more closely mimics the motions made during the game.
When he got to Air Force, none of their linemen could incline bench more than 300#; when they were at their peak, most if not all of them could incline bench 325#.
BACK ON POINT WARNING:
I thought that Mario had some pretty good bench numbers? About 35 or so with 225? If that's right, I doubt that Babin had better. I think this would be an example of gym strength not being translated to game strength.
Although this could also be an example of type of training. If you've been "bodybuilding" training, then you've probably been doing relatively slow reps for lots of reps instead of training acceleration/speed strength. It might be that Mario has been training slow instead of working on acceleration and so he doesn't have that "pop" that comes from working on speed strength.
Couldn't a similar thread be made comparing Lundy's preseason stats to Bush's? I am sure one has already been made however I am pretty sure that Lundy has much better stats. So are we ready to say the Saints missed out by not drafting Lundy over Bush?
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Its funny cause I looked at Babin as a non explosive player until this year . Why you ask is Babin an explosive player now ... well he playing his natural position and not thinking and reading . I bet Mario is still thinking , give him some time .
HeartofHouston
Waterboy
also he's mostly playing first halfs of preseason games think about what he could possible do when it's 4th quarter and we're up and our defense is more of attack mode and can rush the QB that's dropping back for a pass.
Smash_Mouth_Mario
Waterboy
texansfaninla said:
But if Mario gets only 4 sacks this year, 7 the next, and 10 the third. Will it still be "stupid" in the era of free agency? Yes, I know you want it NOW. But ya know? There's that post about getting the "world to spin in reverse on its axis and change the course of Texans' history." We could try that.
Hey, Dexter McCleon got 7 tackles in pre-season! Therefor, I shall anoint him "better" than Mario.
Ye Olde Pro
Practice Squad
You can always tell when a post is written by somebody who has never played a down!
Without casting any stones, let me 'splain somthin' to you Lucy.
What this staff has done with Mario this pre season is give him a Crash Course in the NFL! IF, you had been paying attention.......you would have noticed that Mario is been switched around situationally! I know I'm sorry for the big words, but I get pissed sometimes.
This is a solid kid. And will be, a major league player for a very long time in this league. The guy has a Howie Long kind of motor that will not quit! Under the circumstances, I believe that he has played very well. And has shown the staff exactly what they wanted to see. What is that??? Can he play against different schemes and react to things like pulling guards and o lone stunts like block downs.
HEY WHINNERS!!! FORGET REGGIE BUSH!! FORGET VINCE YOUNG!!!
THIS IS YOUR FOOTBALL TEAM!!! Get behind it! And get behind Mario Williams! You won't be sorry.
Without casting any stones, let me 'splain somthin' to you Lucy.
What this staff has done with Mario this pre season is give him a Crash Course in the NFL! IF, you had been paying attention.......you would have noticed that Mario is been switched around situationally! I know I'm sorry for the big words, but I get pissed sometimes.
This is a solid kid. And will be, a major league player for a very long time in this league. The guy has a Howie Long kind of motor that will not quit! Under the circumstances, I believe that he has played very well. And has shown the staff exactly what they wanted to see. What is that??? Can he play against different schemes and react to things like pulling guards and o lone stunts like block downs.
HEY WHINNERS!!! FORGET REGGIE BUSH!! FORGET VINCE YOUNG!!!
THIS IS YOUR FOOTBALL TEAM!!! Get behind it! And get behind Mario Williams! You won't be sorry.
texansfaninla
Waterboy
He sure didn't have a "Howie Long motor that just won't quit" in college. He even got benched as started for a game last year.
And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall
And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Regie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Jackson .texansfaninla said:
Erratic Assassin
Rookie
LBC_Justin said:
Mario Williams is a workout warrior, which doesn't always translate into being a great football player.
Demeco Ryans doesn't have any of the measurables, but he gets results and that's what really matters.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Dang ... Cutler had 23 reps on the bench . Mathias better hit the weights .
Ye Olde Pro
Practice Squad
Perhaps all these stats are true. But from all reports, the kid is coachable, and that goes a long way when you consider his physical attributes and talent. Stas do not equate to performance. We all know that.
And neither do Heisman trophy's. There is a long list of Heisman busts. We'll see where Bush shakes out in all this. But I still believe that he won't be nearly as effective against NFL talent, just as his performances in college tended to dwindle when they faced quality defenses.
I'll stick with the Williams pick. And if Kubiak can shoot some adenaline in T Johnsons butt, we may have one hell of an Defensive line!
And neither do Heisman trophy's. There is a long list of Heisman busts. We'll see where Bush shakes out in all this. But I still believe that he won't be nearly as effective against NFL talent, just as his performances in college tended to dwindle when they faced quality defenses.
I'll stick with the Williams pick. And if Kubiak can shoot some adenaline in T Johnsons butt, we may have one hell of an Defensive line!
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
texansfaninla said:
We've been all through this.
He got benched along with the whole defense. It's not like he wasn't performing and got benched or he had done something that he personally was being disciplined for. Jeez.
And what exactly do you want this kid to do in college to prove to you that he should be taken #1? How about 13 sacks in a season? OK. Did that. How about 20 tackles for losses? OK. Did that. How about being so dominating that teams doubled and tripled him all season long and ran away from him? OK, did that.
Does the fact that he was #1 or #2 on most draft boards have any weight whatsoever?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Erratic Assassin said:
WTH are you talking about? Where is this workout warrior crap coming from?
What more could he have done in college? This guy produced where it counts, on the field. He had people running away from him all year. He doesn't quit. The highlight reel for his college last year was Mario coming all the way around the far side and running down a running back from behind. This guy had the sacks and the tackles for losses and all that even though most teams were doubling him AND running the other direction.
The guy is a player.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
You look at the numbers as a ceiling . If Mario ran a 5.2 forty , he has a lower ceiling . Jordan had a great vertical , Elway had a great arm , Munoz was so athletic he once pitched for the USC baseball team . This is upside potentiel ... its a way of dividing players .Erratic Assassin said:
Mario was not only a workout warrior he was of the chart . They measure explosive lineman by adding the reps of the benchpress , the broadjump , and the vertical . The watermark number is 70 ... anything over that is an explosive athelete . Mario had an 85.5 which is the highest ever I believe . Mathias has a 59.9 , does'nt prove anything except who's got a higher ceiling .
LBC_Justin
Rookie
He was not benched for his motor.texansfaninla said:
He violated a team rule or something so they followed their team policy and they didn't start him.
LBC_Justin
Rookie
Actually Demeco Ryans has GREAT measurables. Have you seen them?! They aren't that different from AJ Hawks. Very similar in fact.Erratic Assassin said:
Don't believe every BS scouting report you read. Sometimes it pays to look at the numbers and watch the film yourself.
You know what two guys last year were known as "Workout warriors"....DeMarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman. We all know how that turned out. They were both absolute Monsters last year.
Erratic Assassin
Rookie
The Pencil Neck said:
Take a pill.
Workout warrior means he has all the measurables. Unfortunately he doesn't get paid to do cone drills.
As far as his accomplishments on the field Mario has a lot to prove. He wasn't known as a high motor guy in college, so I don't know where you get the idea that "he doesn't quit." They couldn't even get him started the first half of the season. He had a good half-season at USC.
Mario benefitted greatly from having 6'5", 240 lb sack machine Manny Lawson (who runs a 4.48) as a teammate providing huge mismatches for opponents. He doesn't have that luxury anymore.
You can't evaluate a player on the highlight reel. I could make a highlight reel of Moochie Norris that would leave you with the impression that he never missed a shot.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Erratic Assassin said:
You've already taken the pill. If you think that the only reason that Mario was drafted high was because of how he performed at the combine, then you're on drugs and need to stop taking those pills.
Workout warrior doesn't mean "he has all the measurables." Workout warrior means he ONLY has measurables and that he can't produce on the field.
Mario has produced on the field. Therefore, he's not a workout warrior.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Mario benefitted greatly from having 6'5", 240 lb sack machine Manny Lawson (who runs a 4.48) as a teammate providing huge mismatches for opponents. He doesn't have that luxury anymore .
So Mario benefitted from Manny ... Then why did'nt Manny go 1st ?
So Mario benefitted from Manny ... Then why did'nt Manny go 1st ?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Also, Manny has said that it was the other way around. Manny benefitted from teams doubling Mario and running away from Mario.
CaptainPatriot
Waterboy
I watched the PATS vs Giants Game last night(Thanks to TIVO).Kiwanuka was going against a OT that was a 3rd stringer and he wasn`t being double teamed from what I saw
texansfaninla said:
Never before in the history of the NFL draft, has a running back been taken with the #1 overall, that hasn't proven he can run between the tackles.
Never before in the history of the NFL draft, has a running back been taken with the #1 overall, that hasn't proven that he can carry the ball 20-to-30 times a game.
Even the best running back of recent times has not been taken with the #1 overall. Not LT(who is as good as anyone can expect Reggie to be), not RonnieBrown(who a lot of people believe is better than Reggie Bush), not RickyWilliams or Ron Dayne (who has proven they can run between the tackles, and carry the load for their teams.)
There were a lot of things that would have to be over looked to pick Reggie with the #1 overall. His size, the fact that he wasn't the best running back on his team, the fact that he wasn't the best reciever on his team. The fact that he didn't run between the tackles. The fact that he rarely carried the ball more than 15 times a game.
And even after all that, we were still going to take him with the #1 overall. We agreed to a deal with him. All we had to do, was get him to sign on the dotted line, and answer a few questions about a certain NCAA fair competition violations.
But............... we can only overlook so much.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
Erratic Assassin said:
umm... no comment.
Edit: Fine, I'll comment. It looks like you have mixed up your ESPN propaganda.
TexanFanInCC
Veteran
Divebomb said:
i agree. besides, how many double and triple teams does this Kiwanuka draw? i know mario is consistently being doubled.
R
real
Guest
TexanFanInCC said:
Thats not true either....
texansfaninla
Waterboy
And let's see what Mario can do without Manny Lawson (and the other NC State defensive lineman who also was picked in the first round) on the other side of him.
R
real
Guest
texansfaninla said:
Better yet....let's see what those two do without Mario Williams....
LBC_Justin
Rookie
AGREED.xtruroyaltyx said:
I have family in North Carolina and most of the local opinion there is that Mario made both of those guys a lot of money.