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Mathias Kiwanuka versus Mario Williams

T

texansfaninla

Waterboy
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
 
To the best of my knowledge, one has also had the luxury of playing only one position on the line, I could be wrong though. I honestly believe you would see more production from Mario at this stage if he wasn't being moved around a lot. Let's see where Mario is in 3-5 years.
 
The thing about defensive lineman is what are their duties within the scheme.

Mario could have done everything that was expected of him.

Not all lineman are responsible getting sacks or even tackles. In all lot of 4-3 schemes, the lineman are responsible for tieing up the line to allow the linebackers to make plays.

I think you need to know what was expected of Mario first before you make your assessment.

When they expect him to get sacks and schemes are designed for that and he doesn't get them, then he hasn't performed.

Case in point, Steve McMichael of the Bears. Considered one of the best football players of all time and defensive tackle. But, Steve McMichael's job was to tie up the line to allow Mike Singletary get the glory. It worked great. And after retiring and watching game film, Singletary called McMichael and thanked him for all his work.
 
It could be because Kiwanuka is playing against the 3rd stringers. He is listed as a 3rd string player on their depth charts. I'm sure if we allowed Mario to go out there vs 2nd string O-Line he would have nice stats too.
 
texansfaninla said:
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
Click to expand...

pretty good stats by kiwanuka for a rook....come back when the games count... or after both have had some meaningful playing time. Too early to tell right now whos better.
 
Playa, you must not have seen the Giants in preseason. The guy was pretty much playing against SCRUBS. He never once lined up against first teamers, put Mario in that situation and then holla back at me about his performance. I'm not even worried about MW, the guy is doing what's asked of him during the preseason, so ask this ? after a few games and him playing every down.
 
texansfaninla said:
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
Click to expand...

Wow.. the classic stupid statement of the week. You win!

Lets see.. One is on a team that didnt rank last in defense last year.. I wonder who that was. One has a good defense, and molded players. One cannot measure someone by thier play alone, but what he does to the others around him. In addition, he was even on the first team, but the THIRD team. Do me a favor and stop talking till you learn how the game is played.
 
On what percentage of plays (against non-starters, mind you) was Kiwanuka double-teamed (I honestly don't know)? I haven't seen a single play this pre-season on which Mario was not double-teamed. Oh, except for the plays on which he was triple-teamed.
 
RiotCommander said:
It could be because Kiwanuka is playing against the 3rd stringers. He is listed as a 3rd string player on their depth charts. I'm sure if we allowed Mario to go out there vs 2nd string O-Line he would have nice stats too.
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Is this guy even a starter? If not, than I think we should stop talking.
 
i dont think its a big deal, but its definitely worth bringing up... based on statistics alone, it looks like kiwanuka is a force, and mario is nothing special. mario has to produce more than he has thus far in his career.
 
texansfaninla said:
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
Click to expand...

Now that you have convinced me, how do we get the world to spin in reverse on its axis and change the course of Texans' history? :superman:
 
quicksilver said:
On what percentage of plays (against non-starters, mind you) was Kiwanuka double-teamed (I honestly don't know)? I haven't seen a single play this pre-season on which Mario was not double-teamed. Oh, except for the plays on which he was triple-teamed.
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You weren't watching very closely then. There were numerous times he was in one on one situations.
 
I personally wanted Kiwanuka with the pick back in November(back when I figured we would be top 5, not #1. I'm happy with the Mario pick as well, but still to this day prefer Kiwi. It could be my BC bias, but I also think he is the more polished player and think they have similar upsides.
 
Porky said:
You weren't watching very closely then. There were numerous times he was in one on one situations.
Click to expand...

a Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

so were you for drafting vince or reggie?

what the poster was saying that he wasnt exclusively at the end position like kiwanuka is. take the garnet or burnt orange contacts out and you can read a little better.

concerning? it's four preseason games. on the back of the football cards that you still collect, you wont see 2006 preseason on them. give this thing a little time.
 
WOW, I can't even believe we are compaing Mario to Kiwanuka. I have watched the Giants this offseason and kiwanuka has not played one down against the first team in any game. He mostly playes on the third string and many times he gets destroyed on running plays. There is no comparison.
 
Bring this one back when kiwi actually plays in the regular season, if he ever does. I never understood why the Giants took this guy when they had two stud DE's. They had a chance at Demeco they'll likely regret that for the next decade. He may end up being their missing link. I guess they think Lavar is the answer. Too many personnel mistakes I gotta give that division to the other Texas team.
 
The Preacher said:
Bring this one back when kiwi actually plays in the regular season, if he ever does. I never understood why the Giants took this guy when they had two stud DE's. They had a chance at Demeco they'll likely regret that for the next decade. He may end up being their missing link. I guess they think Lavar is the answer. Too many personnel mistakes I gotta give that division to the other Texas team.
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Because Strahan is going to be 35 years old. If Strahan is off the books in two years, you have a first round freak to put in his place and an extra 5+ mil to shore up another part of that team. Kiwi was a top 15 pick for a majority of the season and only fell because of a cheapshot from that scumbag Butler.
 
hollywood_texan said:
The thing about defensive lineman is what are their duties within the scheme.

Mario could have done everything that was expected of him.

Not all lineman are responsible getting sacks or even tackles. In all lot of 4-3 schemes, the lineman are responsible for tieing up the line to allow the linebackers to make plays.

I think you need to know what was expected of Mario first before you make your assessment.
Click to expand...
That sounds like the 3-4 to me.
 
texansfaninla said:
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
Click to expand...

Kiwanuka is playing with the 3rd team means he's playing against OLine guys that will be bouncers at strip clubs next week. He also saw a lot more time on the field. Let's see what happens when Mario actually gets to play a full game.
 
one joined a very good defense while the other is asked to anchor a new defense. Big diference. Mario's influence on the oppositions play calling and blocking schemes is a key factor to the very good defense the Texans have displayed during pre-season games. Their is a lot of upside when the defense continues to improve as the season progresses. With the much improved defense and the players in the skill positions on offense we are in for one exciting season.
 
It's actually a good thread in thought. The way it was shown is a bit flawed. Going into last college football season, Kiwi was the sure fire #1 DE with Tamba Hali being #2. Mario started shooting up charts based on his size and good performances. Kiwi fell off the map after the Butler cheapshot because he played the next few games at probably 70%(Though against NC St later in the year, Kiwi absolutely blew by everyone on NC St while Mario looked average. I gave my impressions on page two of this thread http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=12990 ). Both players were physical freaks who were considered top 15 talent for a majority of their season, one slipped while the other shot way up.
 
TexanBacker93 said:
Kiwanuka is playing with the 3rd team means he's playing against OLine guys that will be bouncers at strip clubs next week. He also saw a lot more time on the field. Let's see what happens when Mario actually gets to play a full game.
Click to expand...


Mario starting aginst #1 offensive Line, also Mario working of double teams allowing his teammates to get the glory:cowboy1:
 
texansfaninla said:
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
Click to expand...

So what you are saying is that 30 teams other than the Texans passed on Kiwanuka(cool name.......... I wish my name was Kiwanuka)..... and the only team that wasted a Draft pick on him(a first at that) was a team with Michael Strahan & Osi Umenyiora??

So I guess that means we should have went out and got undrafted FA Mike Bell, right??
 
thunderkyss said:
So what you are saying is that 30 teams other than the Texans passed on Kiwanuka(cool name.......... I wish my name was Kiwanuka)..... and the only team that wasted a Draft pick on him(a first at that) was a team with Michael Strahan & Osi Umenyiora??

So I guess that means we should have went out and got undrafted FA Mike Bell, right??
Click to expand...

Mike Bell or Chris Taylor. I'm sorry, I missed the comparison there. Bell may have made a big impact on this team and we aren't exactly stacked @ the RB position. I wouldn't see anything wrong with getting Bell.
 
RiotCommander said:
It could be because Kiwanuka is playing against the 3rd stringers. He is listed as a 3rd string player on their depth charts. I'm sure if we allowed Mario to go out there vs 2nd string O-Line he would have nice stats too.
Click to expand...


this is right on, in addition this guy is less likely to get as much attention as a mario williams. I dont doubt that the giants guy is good, I just think its a little early to be jumping to statistical based conclusions.

Even though the guy was playing 2nd 3rd stringers, he definitely was exciting to watch. Perhaps even more exciting when lines up opposite of strahan.
 
The knocks on Kiwi in this thread are funny.

People, Kiwi was ranked AHEAD of Mario for the majority of last season. He only slipped because a player took a pathetic cheapshot at his knee, which he played through for the rest of the season. He rose up a bit again towards the end of the season, but he tweaked an injury at the senior bowl and was unimpressive. He is just as tall as Mario, with close to the same speed. The knock on him was he was thin, which he promptly added 8-10lbs to his frame already. I don't see why everyone is bringing up the Giants as an excuse to knock him based on their depth. It actually says MORE about his talent, since they decided to take a player at a position they were more than comfortable at.
 
Tyr said:
To the best of my knowledge, one has also had the luxury of playing only one position on the line, I could be wrong though. I honestly believe you would see more production from Mario at this stage if he wasn't being moved around a lot. Let's see where Mario is in 3-5 years.
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3-5 years is a bit too long for my liking....they said mario was a better prospect coming out of college than julius peppers and peppers piled up 10-14 sacks or something in the reg season........i got high expectation of mario this year

....
 
You should have high expectations of the No. 1 overall pick this year. Waiting 3-5 years to develop a defensive player (especially one that you're paying $54 million to) in the free agency era is just stupid.

We'll find out Sunday how Mario looks "in regular season mode". Everyone says he's been holding back. Kiwanuka certainly hasn't been.
 
im not gonna make excuses for Mario.

All im gonna say is that maybe...just maybe... it takes more than 4 preseason games to fully judge the worth of a player.

Mathis Kiwanuka may be a future hall of famer..or he may never be as good as he was this preseason. Same for Mario...same for any other rookie this year.

The only thing i know for certain is that chastising mario for not coming in and immediatly being the best player on our defense is both stupid, and annoying.. and yall need to cut it out.
 
this reminds me of demarcus ware v shawn merriman last year...ware was a first ballot pre-season HoFer (thank you infantryak if i remember right) but by the end of the year it was clear merriman was the better player...not saying this will happen to mario and kiwi but people shouldn't jump too much on pre-season stats
 
Does Kiwanuka move from spot to spot like Mario?
It was like the coaches weren't sure they wanted him on the end.
 
WildBlackBear32 said:
The knocks on Kiwi in this thread are funny.

People, Kiwi was ranked AHEAD of Mario for the majority of last season. He only slipped because a player took a pathetic cheapshot at his knee, which he played through for the rest of the season. He rose up a bit again towards the end of the season, but he tweaked an injury at the senior bowl and was unimpressive. He is just as tall as Mario, with close to the same speed. The knock on him was he was thin, which he promptly added 8-10lbs to his frame already. I don't see why everyone is bringing up the Giants as an excuse to knock him based on their depth. It actually says MORE about his talent, since they decided to take a player at a position they were more than comfortable at.
Click to expand...

There aren't any knocks on Kiwanuka(that's a cool name........ I wish my name was Kiwanuka)........ nobody doubts his talent, or his potential. We're all just acknowledging the fact that he's playing 2s & 3s, and he's got All-Pro players all around him, to help him look better.

It's a different situation with Mario. He's playing the 1st team, and we are hoping he is the guy to make the rest of our players look good.

wicked_wayz said:
3-5 years is a bit too long for my liking....they said mario was a better prospect coming out of college than julius peppers and peppers piled up 10-14 sacks or something in the reg season........i got high expectation of mario this year

....
Click to expand...

I'm with you. If we are going to say this guy is a better prospect than JP, then we should expect him to perform as well, if not better.

But we also must recognize that we are asking him to do a lot more than JP, so his stats might be lower.

dat_boy_yec said:
Mike Bell or Chris Taylor. I'm sorry, I missed the comparison there. Bell may have made a big impact on this team and we aren't exactly stacked @ the RB position. I wouldn't see anything wrong with getting Bell.
Click to expand...

Fans dream of finding that guy in the draft, UDFAs, and what not. There are probably fans of 30 different teams thinking, "............. man we should've picked up MikeBell." But the fact is that Mike Bell could've gone anywhere else, and chances are he wouldn't have got the opportunity that he did in Denver. Most coaches wouldn't have seen what Shanahan saw.

A lot of things have to happen for a particular player to have success with a particular team.

Kiwanuka having success in NewYork.(when they already have a top 5 defense) IMHO is about the same as MikeBell being successful in Denver..( a top 5 rushing team). & neither can be compared to Mario here(last in defense) or NewOrleans.
 
hollywood_texan said:
The thing about defensive lineman is what are their duties within the scheme.

Mario could have done everything that was expected of him.

Not all lineman are responsible getting sacks or even tackles. In all lot of 4-3 schemes, the lineman are responsible for tieing up the line to allow the linebackers to make plays.

I think you need to know what was expected of Mario first before you make your assessment.

When they expect him to get sacks and schemes are designed for that and he doesn't get them, then he hasn't performed.

Case in point, Steve McMichael of the Bears. Considered one of the best football players of all time and defensive tackle. But, Steve McMichael's job was to tie up the line to allow Mike Singletary get the glory. It worked great. And after retiring and watching game film, Singletary called McMichael and thanked him for all his work.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the apologists are out in force for Mario as well as Carr. Mario has looked average to good but hardly like a No.1 Overall pick, but as we have seen in the past 4+ years, it doesnt matter in Houston. All these homers will still make excuses just like they continue to do so for David Carr.

doug ftw
 
Well it's been decided. Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, and Vince Young will all be busts in the NFL. The expert conclusions reached by four preseason games carry throughout their careers. Kiwi, Lundy, and Cutler will outperform them by leaps and bounds.
 
Why are be even doing this the Carr vs Sage talk has slowed down so now lets dump om Mario. Mario was a top 5 pick plain and simple and I would wont a guy with no injury's compared to someone who slip because he had one. Lets stop tearing down our own players every chance we get this guy has been told he is not wanted since we drafted him. What happens if he goes crazy and just starts killing QB and RB and is one of the best in league and gets a chance to become a free agent and leaves who would blame him. Some of us know this game but not to the point that we should be working in the front office of a NFL team. I can not wait until this guy is tearing it up and I can sit back and read how everybody just knew this guy is the man and never said any thing bad about him. I for one was one of the few who wanted to draft Super Mario, I would like to have traded down to get him but if we could but seeing that we couldn't oh well I am happy about it regardless. Here is to hoping Super Mario can find that flower power and start throwing fireballs at QB's.:fireball:
 
thunderkyss said:
Fans dream of finding that guy in the draft, UDFAs, and what not. There are probably fans of 30 different teams thinking, "............. man we should've picked up MikeBell." But the fact is that Mike Bell could've gone anywhere else, and chances are he wouldn't have got the opportunity that he did in Denver. Most coaches wouldn't have seen what Shanahan saw.

A lot of things have to happen for a particular player to have success with a particular team.

Kiwanuka having success in NewYork.(when they already have a top 5 defense) IMHO is about the same as MikeBell being successful in Denver..( a top 5 rushing team). & neither can be compared to Mario here(last in defense) or NewOrleans.
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Alright I get you now, that was well put. Thanx for clearing that up. I still think Bell would have had a good shot here in Houston though.
 
texansfaninla said:
Secondhoneymoon...I agree with you completely. Stop making excuses for Mario's underwhelming performances.
Click to expand...

Its funny how you always agree with him and vice versa, its like your one mind!, slightly deranged, but one mind nonetheless.

A 3rd string O-lineman could totally manhandle me (5-8 129lbs), but does that mean he should be the starter because he can play better against inferior opponents?
 
The thing with Mathias is that if he does play regulary during the season, he's going to have Strahan and ... I forgot who else working the other side of the line, so to say that Mathias's pre-season stats are more impressive than Mario's doesn't really hold a lot of value. Mario will be fine, and will contend for DROY.
 
Mario's dominance won't just be reflected in individual stats... it will be reflected in the performance of the D-Line and defense overall. The point of Mario is drawing two blockers, stuffing the run, and getting sacks. He's the point man for everything... if he's as good as he's made out to be, the interior should thrive and the linebackers should be freed up to make plays, pressure will be put on the QB and the DBs won't be hung out to dry. Yes, he's expected to put up double digit sacks... and the better the defense plays, the more 3rd and longs the opposition faces and the more opportunities Mario, Peek, et al. will have to tee off. Individual stat-lines won't tell the truth on a game-by-game basis, final scores and total D stats should.
 
personally I think mario will prolly get bout 6 to 9 sacks if he shifts around , about 8 to 13 sacks if he plays the outside, next year the numbers will virtually double. but im just a fan. what do I know
 
Ok i will be the first to tell you that stats don't always mean everything, especially in football, but I think the measurables at the combine are very telling about these two players.

Mathias Kiwanuka
Height - 6'5 1/2
Weight - 266
Bench press - 17
Vertical - 32.9
Broadjump - 10.0
run time 10 yd - 1.63
run time 20 yd - 2.79
run time 30 yd - 4.74
Short Shuttle 20yd - 4.13
Short Shuttle 60yd - 11.65
3 cone - 7.27

Mario Williams
Height - 6'7
Weight - 295
Bench press - 35
Vertical - 40.5
Broadjump - 10.0
run time 10 yd - 1.59
run time 20 yd - 2.75
run time 30 yd - 4.73
Short Shuttle 20yd - 4.36
Short Shuttle 60yd - DNR
3 cone - 7.19

Mario is 30 pounds heavier, bench pressed over twice as many times, is faster or at the minimum just as fast, can jump 20% higher, is taller and has longer arms.

Mathias Kiwanuka was one of the weakest at the bench press of all DE in the draft. I think this made his stock drop fast.

Mathias Kiwanuka needs to be a very smart player and play with great technique because he does not possess the same physical gift that Mario has. I think both guys will be good, and I like Kiwi, but look for Mario to be a freak.
 
The thing is, measurables dont mean everything. I like the Mario pick, I am glad we took him, but how well they do at the combine does not mean everything. It is how they play the game.
 
I hate to say it but Mario hasn't impressed me much this preseason once I look past stuff like "measurables". Carr has every measurable also, but look what that's done for him in 60 NFL starts.....

So far I'm not all that excited, but I'm behind the pick and hope for the best. Workout stats and drafting for 'need' at the top of the draft is not something I'm fond of myself....we shall see how this pans out long term.
 
rmartin65 said:
The thing is, measurables dont mean everything. I like the Mario pick, I am glad we took him, but how well they do at the combine does not mean everything. It is how they play the game.
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Your right they don't mean everything but in this case they are telling.

Kiwi is not super strong. He isn't going to overpower lineman.

Heck on the bench press he is much weaker than Reggie Bush...who at the time only weighed 200 pounds.
 
The bench press is probably the most overrated measurable ever. Having nice triceps and good delts or short arms will make you a big bencher. Trunk strength is much more important.
 
football is a game of leverage and drive with the legs, bench press prolly helps an offensive lineman in pass blocking more than anything
 
LBC_Justin said:
Your right they don't mean everything but in this case they are telling.

Kiwi is not super strong. He isn't going to overpower lineman.

Heck on the bench press he is much weaker than Reggie Bush...who at the time only weighed 200 pounds.
Click to expand...
Lots of players have insane measurables, but only a few make it into the NFL. Strength is important, but some guys can get around being weaker than average. Acceleration and smarts also have alot to do with beating the OL. Mario is the better pick. I believe he will have a better career than Kiwi.

All I am trying to say is people seem to inflate the combine workouts. Bush is a pretty good example. He flew at the combine, and was strong. But he has not done as well as other backs with less impressive workouts(Lundy, for example).
 
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