Interesting that anyone would think that Carroll was convinced Marshawn would absolutely go down before the end zone on the play before.
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Marshawn Lynch, what I think...
- Thread starter SW H-TOWN
- Start date
yeah, but you'll have a tough time convincing me that his butthead act didn't cost him a chance to score the winning TD.
How much is that worth?
I don't buy it. In that moment to win another Super Bowl, I simply cannot believe that the head coach and OC were concerned about anything other than winning that game.
I heard a stat that Lynch had been given the ball five times last season a yard from the goal-line. In those five attempts, he got one TD. There is no guarantee that the Patriots defense would have let him in. We see epic goal-line stands all the time in football.
So you think the pass play was the better option?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
No, I hated the call...
But those anti-Lynch conspiracy theories are off the wall, man.
There's an adage coaches have, players, not plays -- meaning go with your best guys, not your trickiest play. A lesson even pro-level coaches have to learn and learn again. Some in league circles felt one of Bevell's weaknesses was he tended to outsmart himself. This was being bandied about in the media during the season. SEA takes a lot of chances, this one didn't work. It happens.
I know. But GP (he may be before your time) isn't here any more to do his
thing any more so I thought I'd give it a shot.And to be honest, that DB made a damned good play. He had made another earlier in the 4th when he broke up a deep throw with an equally outstanding play.
Like you say, Carroll rolled the dice and lost. I would have used my sledgehammer.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I know. But GP (he may be before your time) isn't here any more to do his
Okay, cool. Didn't "sound" like you... guess I missed the sarc.
It really wasn't a bad call if you're objective about it. Teams make that TD 9 out of 10 times.
If the outside WR had jumped off the ball at the snap and pushed his defender back a little quicker, Butler would not have had the chance.
In the end, the defense just made a great play. It's as simple as that. I cannot crucify Carroll for a call that many pro coaches are saying was solid in the big picture.
What if they had given it to Lynch and he fumbled? People would be screaming "why didn't they pass it on 2nd down?!!!". You cannot win when you lose like that.
eriadoc
Texan-American
It was a bad call IMO for two reasons:
1.) It's a lower percentage call than other options available to them, irrespective of run or pass. A pass play in itself wasn't a bad call, but they could have done a WR screen, a shuttle pass, a pass from a bootleg (read option or not), or a pass to the back of the end zone (fade or otherwise). While the latter might be a lower success percentage, it is also a lower risk, IMO. How often do you see a fade intercepted?
2.) It completely neutered the best skills of their play-making QB. Wilson is intelligent and mobile. They removed any post-snap decision making by him with that play call. The decision was made pre-snap and the execution happened with no post-snap decision because of the type of play and speed with which it needed to be ran. Furthermore, they removed any threat of Wilson running or moving the defense with his mobility with that play call. A bootleg, read option, or even a dropback giving him the option to read the defense and take off if called for would have been a better call, IMO.
We always hear about how important a QB is in the NFL. Well, Carroll removed the QB from the equation with that call, at least beyond the point that any basic QB could make that throw. Put the ball in the hands of your playmakers with the game on the line.
You make good points, man, but, but the same token, NFLN ran stats and that has been a bread-and-butter play for Wilson for awhile.
And maybe that's the problem. A football genius like Belichick picked up on that tendency and taught his rookie CB well. Butler acted on instinct as he had been trained in practice.
Wilson could have changed it at the line, though. He felt confident enough that he could make that play. He said after the game that he never saw Butler.
I'm telling you, if that other WR had done his job, Butler would not have been in position to make the play. Players have to *ahem* execute.
I'm not saying it was a great call. But, I'm also not on the landslide of opinion saying it's "the worst call in the history of the NFL". I'm not one for bandwagon hyperbole, but rather I form my own takes based on analysis. Bad call because it did not work out. But let's be honest, if they had scored, not one mofo would have called it a bad playcall.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Meh, maybe. But when it first happened, I didn't know it was intercepted. Thought it was just knocked down. As the pass came out of his hands, I was yelling "idiot!"
So maybe it's just me. I personally had predicted a read option with Wilson making the decision in real time.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
As was I, "They're gonna pass... they're gonna pass... no!"
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
This call isn't much different than the Texans deciding to pass on 3rd and 2 in OT in the Dallas game, instead of giving it to Foster who had just picked up 30 yards on 2 carries in that drive, and had 157 yards at a 6.8 yard per carry clip for the day. IIRC, no one thought the Texans passing in that situation was a good call.
I get that the play (Seattle) in and of itself is not a bad play, and if you run it any other time during the game, fine. And I get that that play would likely work 8 out of 10 times. But when the game is on the line and you need that TD to win it, or that 1st down to keep an OT drive alive, you've got to play to your strengths. For me, it's as simple as that.
For the Texans, you win or lose that game against Dallas with Foster, not on the arm of Fitzpatrick. For Seattle, you win or lose with Lynch, or even Wilson, running - their strength - not their pass game.
And if they gave it to Lynch and he was stopped, I doubt anybody would be screaming why didn't they pass. You don't get 2nd guessed when you play to your strength. You get 2nd guessed when you gamble and play away from your strength.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I should also say I'm taking the 3 points before the half instead of going for the TD with 6 seconds left. Different strokes.
Agreed. I understand the, "You hand it to beastmode three times" group, but I can understand Carroll expecting Wilson to make good decisions throughout the process. He looks at the defense & sees the cover he wants against the routes they have called. He gets a good look at his target, at a quick glance, it looks like a safe throw, or you'd get that penalty with Browner mugging Kearse with the ball in the air.
It didn't even look like it was going to be close, looked like it was going to be an easy score, but Butler made a heck of a play.
Bad call, maybe. Worst in a Super Bowl, doubt it. Worst in history, not even close.
That call was even worse, because we didn't even line Foster up in the backfield to fake the run.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
I wasn't yelling at my TV but a pass in that situation surprised the hell out of me. I was thinking run all the way. Pete Carrol tried to be the smartest man in the room and it cost him the Super Bowl.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I agree, Gary.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
Seattle had Lynch in the backfield but they didn't fake the run. Everybody assumed Lynch would get the ball there and Seattle didn't utilize him at all. Even a play-action would have set up the pass better.
Malcolm Butler making the play of his life cost them the Super Bowl, not that play call itself. I'm not sure why that gets lost on just about everyone.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Because there were better play call options that would have made it extremely difficult and unlikely that Butler or any other Patriot could make such a play.
Looking at it calmly (took 3 days to get here), I think the flaw in that play was sending Lynch out wide to the left.
[imgwidthsize=450]http://urbynloft.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/super-bowl-play.jpg[/IMG]
If he had remained next to Wilson, then the defense would have had to respect the possibility of a draw or delay. The indecision or moment to read whether it was a delay or not would have probably held the DB and kept him from jumping the route. With Lynch way out on the left all they had to do was cover the pass.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
You're right. That great play by Butler won the Patriots the Super Bowl. I don't think the Patriots would have stopped Lynch from the 1 on two running plays though.
That's all completely hypothetical. Other play calls would have had their own thousands of other possible permutations.
The only thing anyone can say definitively is Butler made a tremendous play and it sealed the game for his team.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Because you can't say the bold.
It's not an either or proposition. Both can be true.
Great analysis. Like you said, at any other time in the game, the call was solid.
Seeing all the sideline talk that NFL Films is showing is clearly reveals that Carroll had absolute confidence in his QB to make that play. He even made a comment to Wilson that they were giving him an easy one with three TOs and a minute left on the clock. I don't think it every crossed Carroll's mind that the Patriots could have that play figured out like they did.
As far as the last point, Carroll said there was going to be a pass on at least one of those three plays. They had to stop the clock. I think their mentality was if they ran on 2nd and got stopped, they'd have to use the timeout. Then passing on 3rd is obvious, because they need to stop the clock.
With as much confidence as Carroll had in his QB and team, there had to be a little seed of doubt with that mentality. They were trying to think two steps ahead if the Patriots had stopped them instead of going all in for the play.
I definitely understand the "hand it to Beastmode three times" folks. Like everyone else, I was surprised they threw the ball when it happened. Like you said, thought, Carroll thought they had the right play for that specific defense, and they were 99% correct. It was that 1% chance with Butler jumping on the ball that made all the difference.
Great screen grab. When you see that point when Wilson was about to release, you can see why he thought he had the play. It's almost wide open field and never saw Butler breaking on it.
For me, I just credit Butler and his coaching more than I criticize the playcall. It was a bang-bang play and truly an epic way to end the game for the Patriots.
The play call itself having more possible outcomes than what happened allows me to say it wasn't necessarily what cost them. I can definitively point at happened directly, Butler's outstanding break on the ball and the result. Credit where it's due in lieu of "the worst call in all of the history of the word call".
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
This can be said of every play ever called and therefore is meaningless.
Playcalling is subject to criticism regardless of the outcome of the play called. Even if Butler hadn't made the play and the Seahawks had gotten a TD it wouldn't make the call any better.
In 4 years in the league on 3 teams including the WR poor Seahawks Lockette had failed to make himself a factor in ordinary play. That's not who you go to with the SB on the line.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Why? Jumping the route moves the DB directly towards the QB and RB next to him. For Butler, he'd be defending the pass and running towards Lynch.
Belichick had seen the formation, knew the tendencies, and specifically practiced against it telling Brown what he had to do. The defensive alignment set up the play call.
I think the flaw was putting the ball at risk. Carroll said he wanted to waste a play or something similar. Throw to a boundary, throw it away, don't throw into a crowd. Go with your best guy.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Of 40 rushing and receiving TDs this season, Lynch & Wilson had 23 with no receiver other than Lynch (4) having more than 3.
I've got nothing more to add, but GREAT DISCUSSION, guys! This kind of open, respectful dialogue is what makes Texans Talk so freakin' great. Seriously, when everyone else in your life is tired of hearing you babble on about football, you can always come to this forum to find others that never get tired of it! 
Criticize it. Judge it against alternatives. That's all very fair. But saying it did cost them the game doesn't point an accurate finger. Not like the one I can point to with the one outcome we got. I can say Butler made the play. The rest is conjecture.
yeah... can't argue that at all.
I've got nothing more to add, but GREAT DISCUSSION, guys! This kind of open, respectful dialogue is what makes Texans Talk so freakin' great. Seriously, when everyone else in your life is tired of hearing you babble on about football, you can always come to this forum to find others that never get tired of it!
Yep!
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
That's all that needs to be said. Your 2 best players are Wilson and Lynch and the ball shouldn't be put in anyone else's hands but theirs. The zone read was the way to go....If you insist on throwing it there, you throw it off a zone read fake. Even if Lynch doesn't get in on that play, you've got a TO.
It was an atrocious call
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
If utilized correctly the clock would not have been a factor with the three play calls. Seattle let forty seconds run off the clock after their first down run. Seattle could have called three running plays and there still could have been 15-20 seconds remaining in the game. They didn't want to give Brady the ball with 45+ seconds left.
yeah, you're right about that. I kept wondering why Belichick didn't call a TO, but figured he'd had enough in past SB losses of giving the other team time to figure things out. He left it in the hands of his D, which ended up being the right decision in the end.
Speaking of Belichick and that Seahawks playcalling:
Belichick defends Seahawks' play call
He's saying what a lot of coaches have said, but then again, they do not tend to question their own while still in the profession.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
[IMGwidthsize=300]http://www.awesomecooltees.com/products/6853674.png[/IMG]
He seems to be insinuating that his number wasn't called because of some type of concerns about him being SB MVP. Yet, he had the ball the play before and could have scored, and he most likely would have gotten the ball 1-2 more times on that drive if the Patriots had not intercepted it.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Yeah, that's why I posted it...
PC: What play do you want to go with?
DB: Let's go with #24.
PC: We can't let Marshawn score here... he'll be Super Bowl MVP... he wears the wrong shoes and those gold headphones... and he doesn't interview well!
DB: Let's go with #24.
PC: We can't let Marshawn score here... he'll be Super Bowl MVP... he wears the wrong shoes and those gold headphones... and he doesn't interview well!
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Last edited:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Where did you get those figures? None are mentioned in the linked article.
That's Clayton's spin. It's a 3 year deal 12 guaranteed in the form of 4.5 1st year salary and 7.5 signing bonus. There is speculation the Seahawks have a wink agreement not to seek repayment of the signing bonus if he retires next year.
That's according to profootballtalk.
Thanks.