Cerberus
Hall of Fame
That would appear to be the case.
For what? Do you mean Marvin Lewis and the BeenGals?
I forgot about that; Raider fans had a great laugh over that one.
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Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million
- Thread starter gafftop
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That would appear to be the case.
For what? Do you mean Marvin Lewis and the BeenGals?
I forgot about that; Raider fans had a great laugh over that one.
Cerberus
Hall of Fame
We will see. If they don't do something this coming year there are going to be many changes. That tends to motivate most people. They're defense hasn't been the same since Merriman (sp?) faded away. They need someone in the worst way that can get to the QB in the worst way.
I was surprised when his rookie contract came without a signing bonus. I would have thought it rare for a #1 overall to not have a signing bonus in his contract.
If I were Mario's agent, I would demand a signing bonus... more money in my pocket, plus you're right, makes it unlikely that he would get cut, when the guaranteed portion of the contract runs out.
However, a good GM would counter with a smaller salary over the first 3 or 4 years of the contract. The numbers would still be the same..... $36M-$40M guaranteed.
Here was my proposal...
The signing bonus ($25M) & the first 3 years' salary ($13M) are the only guarantees ($38M)
But if we can do basically the same thing without a bonus, I'd be all for it.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Ok,1 more time. If mario signs the kind of deal I suggested and has a career ending injury week 1 of the season, the texans will still owe 36m. If the texans give him a 6yr deal worth 7280m with a 36m signing bonus and he has the same career ending injury in week 1, they will owe him 36m. Its the same money except a bonus can be prorated through the 6yrs and the 1st 3yr guarantee is paid in the 1st 3yrs. Again, one is paying cash and the other is credit card. The fully guarantee 1st 3 yrs for 36 m protectes the team after the 3 yrs. The signing bonus has the ability to have dead money and lingering effects.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Mario should jump & shout halleluyah if he is tagged. His one year salary would be apprx $17m and then the following year as a relatively young defensive specialist he is rigth back looking at a long term deal with lots of upfront dollars and 2-3 years guaranteed.
$17 + $20 m bonus for next deal + say $7m first year base = $44m in two years.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Am I not correct in saying that upfront bonus is just that? He gets the "$20m" bonus in his checking account immediately while the guaranteed is his but gets paid over the guaranteed years? If I 'm correct, I'd want the highest upfront bonus NOW and then the highest guaranteed amount in as fewest years as possible. Guaranteed money is his just not NOW.
Allstar
Bona fide
Not disagreeing, but what evidence do you have that convinced you of this?
Trail.Blazr
Hooked up to a Kool-Aid IV
Mario being a Carolina native, I wouldn't rule out Tampa, Atlanta, Tennessee or DC area. I shudder to think of him as a TACK
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
And that's one reason why I say sign him. Sign our guys, with Mario and Foster being the main guys, and call it a Free Agency.
nero THE zero
All Pro
There's an article in the AJC today about the Falcons' needs, one of which being DE, and what they should do. The writer dismisses Mario as an option due to (1) the Texans likelihood, in his opinion, of re-signing Mario and (2) the inability of the Falcons to compete in a bidding war for him. But, check out the comments section; the commenters are lusting over Mario like a group of 13 year boys and a skin flick.
There was also this somewhat unrelated gem that I felt I must share.
heh
badboy
Hall of Fame
Apologise for repeating my past posts but to answer: Mario was 1st #1 pick to not demand an upfront bonus indicating not overly consumed by cash. He never tried to renegotiate as did Andre Johnson (not blasting AJ as I'd done same thing but it is true). I think Mario has a relationship with Bob McNair different than other Texans. Remember his early years when he was stopped by Houston PD and Bob had private meeting informing him he was a Texan and his behavior was a negative? Mario apologised & thanked McNair for treating him like a man. I just think both sides will do all possible keep Mario a Texan.
What are we calling big bucks?
I think the Texans would be willing to pay him up to $14M/yr..... that's below Peppers, but about the other guys. They'll be able to work his cap number to $10M or so for 2012 & still have a manageable number for 2013 & 2014. I think they'll have about $36M or so guaranteed.. maybe $38M
I don't think anyone is going to offer him much more than that.
False Start
On # 69
badboy
Hall of Fame
If you are talking $14m base salary, Williams should jump on that. I'm expecting offer in 8-12m CAP. I can see $36m guaranteed with some of that upfront bonus.
No, I mean his average salary. This is my Mario deal:
I doubt he'll get a better "overall" or "guaranteed" offer. He may get a bigger signing bonus... but I'd find it hard to believe it would be a deal breaker.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Yeah that is what threw me off as I saw your earlier post. My fear is Texans may think they can pay him his 2011 salary first two years of new deal. They can cut enough to pay Foster and re-negotiate others to pay the FA they want to keep.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
One more time, if mario gets 36m guarantee with a 20m signing bonus, bob can cut him a check for 20m now and then 16m later. If they guarantee the 1st 3 yrs of a 36m bonus deal,mario is going to get the same 36m. 36m guarantee whether its 1st 3 yr guarantee or a 20m signing bonus is the same. When you get a chance, google the haynesworth deal. He had 40m guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. Anyway it went,they had to cough up 40m withing that 3 yr span. After year 3, he was a tradeable player because his salary was only 4m.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I don't know why you continue to push this as if I can't possibly comprehend the complexity of your idea. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know, my argument is that Mario isn't going to want that type of deal. He's 26, the headliner of this defensive class and lots of teams have enormous amounts of money to spend. I think there will be much better offers on the table for him than what you propose. There are at least half a dozen teams out there that have 40+ million to spend in free agency this year.
Yes the Texans can offer him the type of deal you proposed, no I don't think it is comparable to what other teams will offer. Go look at the Julius Peppers deal if you want to get some perspective, he's the most recent example of a comparable player. His guaranteed money was paid by the end of his second year and then some.
Right, and those "lingering effects" favor the player, not the club, which is why I expect him to get a signing bonus. It ties the player to the club and make it more likely that the player will earn those future year salaries so he can get the full value of the contract. That's the whole point of my previous post, it's in the best interest of Mario or any player for that matter, to get a signing bonus.
TheDrifter
Rookie
I fully expect Mario to be gone.
Some terrible team with a boatload of cap space is going to way over pay for his services. He'll end up somewhere like Cleveland or Tampa and lucky to see the playoffs again until well past 30.
Some terrible team with a boatload of cap space is going to way over pay for his services. He'll end up somewhere like Cleveland or Tampa and lucky to see the playoffs again until well past 30.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Pepper deal was different because it happened in an un capped world. That's why they paid his money in 2 installments. Even if 40m is the magic number,that's still not hard to do with a 1st 3yr guarantee.
6m sal 7.5 roster
6.5m sal 7m roster
6m sal 7m roster
There is 40m guarantee in the 1st 3yrs. That 6 yrs 80m with 40m gurantee. In the next 3 yrs, you just have more salary and a smaller roster bonus so if they need to cut or restructure, its easier to move salary to bonus.
10.5 sal 3m roster
10m sal 3.5 roster
10m sal 3m roster
6yr 80m with the guarantee money he's looking for plus the club protection added. Not so hard. The contract can be worth more by adding snaps bonus and probowl incentive as well as report to camp bonus.
False Start
On # 69
Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. Mario may never experience playoffs if he goes for the money.
badboy
Hall of Fame
One more time, that is what I've said. Upfront bonus is prorated over the contract and non bonus guaranteed $ is base salary. What confuses me and evidently others is when you state first 3 yrs of a 36m bonus deal. That should be two separate things imo. Other than incentive bonus paid seasonally, most of us refer to "bonus" money as upfront (before the contract begins). Upfront money has been paid so if you want to consider it guaranteed ok but that is a bit riiculous.
While the player wants as much upfront money and guaranteed years of money, there are benefits for both to owner. As you have said, salary money guaranteed or not, can be set up in agreed amounts over the life of the contract.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I thnk something you are not bringing up is roster bonus is not good for the player. Much better for Mario to get upfront money or fully guaranteed salary.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Good point. Another thing that is missed is that the signing bonus actually guarantees much of the salary (essentially).
In other words, if Mario is given a $36 million signing bonus in a six year deal, the Texans wouldn't be able to cut him until the fourth or fifth year, even if they wanted to. Otherwise, all that money would rush into one cap year.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
"Up front" bonus can come in the form of either a signing bonus or roster bonus. Roster bonuses are not frequently used because the teams want to prorate the money. But where teams have the cap space they will do it such as when Antoine Winfield signed with the Vikings.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Agreed but still not a plus for player which we have to consider with Mario. He may agree as he did the first time but that will surprise me a bit.
Just curious on your take as why a team would pay a roster bonus before player "makes" the annual roster?
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
While it may be a capped year, teams like the Jaguars have upwards of 60 million dollars in capspace this year. The cap really won't have much effect on those teams this year and gives them the opportunity to pay huge sums of salary up front. Here's a partial list of 2011 rollover capspace that teams will have at their disposal in this free agency:
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1900571&posted=1#post1900571
Now double those numbers and you have the cap space available to each team due to rollover from 2011 before the 2012 free agents are removed from their rosters. That is an insane amount of money for those teams to use to get a guy like Mario or even Arian Foster. None of those teams will need to structure a deal like the one you're proposing, the Jags, Broncos or Bucs could easily give Mario 25 million in year 1 and still have money leftover from their 2011 cap. That's almost double year 1 of your proposed deal, and that's why I don't think we will have a chance to re-sign him with the one you propose. 13 mill a year with no signing bonus isn't going to cut it if he hits free agency. The only way the Texans can compete with those huge numbers is to increase the guaranteed money to 50-60 mill or give him a huge signing bonus to assure him that he will get that money and be with the team in years 4,5,6,7.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Well just to continue the Antoine Winfield example the Vikings carried over a bunch of not likely to be earned cap space from the prior season. They knew they wanted Winfield and could take the one year roster bonus hit and not prorating freed up space on the later years.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Understood. Have you posted your thoughts on Mario being gone or re-signed?
Allstar
Bona fide
It'd be more fair if we gave them a draft pick for taking Dunta off of our hands.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Change the playoffs and AFCC bonuses to salary and he might go for it. Team based incentives are rarely used on players that aren't the QB. Or change those to some other individual incentives like "start 14 or more games that season", "voted to All-pro team", "Super Bowl MVP" or "40+ tackles". Something that puts the incentive directly on him in games rather than the team's performance.
This comes directly from a video editor in the Texans scouting department posting on another site earlier today:
"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."
and...
"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."
Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.
"Well this past week I had to go through and make reels of every sack John Abraham and Cliff Avril have gotten in their careers, so I think we're splitting ways with Mario. Stanford Routt is visiting tomorrow. As for the draft all's I'm hearing is they're going to try and build depth all across the roster."
and...
"Well it's pretty much guaranteed we're going after a WR in the first round. The only way we keep Mario is if he's willing to take a pay cut to stay with us. Sadly, I think he's going to take whoever is offering him the most money even if they're a bad team. I know they're looking at Vinny Curry out of Marshall."
Gives us a little insight on where they might head-and for better or worse it's away from Mario.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Sounds pretty accurate to me. This is Mario's big payday and he has earned it. He's not going to leave tens of millions on the table to stay with the Texans. I expect him to be the highest paid defensive player in the league next year, if not top 5 at the very least. The Texans simply can't compete with that.
I'm surprised John Abraham would be a target of the Texans though, I'm pretty sure he has always be a 4-3 DE and is about 35. Doesn't seem like the right kind of guy to come in and convert to OLB. Avril would be nice, but I think he will be a bit expensive. Might be able to snag him for reasonable money.
Do you have a link? Not calling bull or anything on him, but when did personnel departments start evaluating based on a "highlight film" in essence?
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
It's probably so they can quickly view their pass rush moves more than anything. Both of them are 4-3 DEs though, so they might be looking more to see if either could convert to OLB or 3-4 DE.
Makes enough sense I guess. I just don't see how you can make that determination by just viewing nothing but positive plays. I know its not how its done through the college scouting department, but I'm not really familiar with the pro personnel side.
I'm headed off to work--but I'll send ya a link to the conversation if it's that important when I get back. I was reticent to post a link cause I didn't want this to turn into something the guy might regret. His name is his handle and the specific info makes it easy enough to figure out who he is even without a name. It's obvious he's nobody in the know--just a kid that's having the time of his life doing the bidding of higher ups and wanted to share with texans fans on a small message board. And they had him compile the aforementioned plays for review by somebody unmentioned on the texans staff. Interesting stuff.
Definitely don't want to get anyone in trouble...... so its no biggie. Thanks for the info.
Peppers didn't get a bonus & his money wasn't guaranteed over 2 years
He got the $20M for the 2010 season, the uncapped season.
So in 2 years, Peppers collected $32M in two years, leaving $9M guaranteed left to be paid in 2012. 2013, his cap number will be $15M if he plays, $6M dead money. If they need it, they can cut Peppers before the 2013 season & save $9M in cap money.
I'm a Mario fan. But if he leaves because we offer him $36M guaranteed over 3 years instead of $40M ($1.33M/yr difference) then he doesn't want to be a Texan. If someone offers him $45M guaranteed over 3 years ($3M/yr difference) then more power to him.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Ok, well there does seem to be some conflicting reports about his contract. Rotoworld says this:
http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/chi/bears
It looks to me like he got the 20 million in 2010 along with a signing bonus of 6.5 mill. Then he got another 11.5 million in 2011, but 10.5 of that was converted from a roster bonus to a signing bonus, which is prorated over the last 5 years a 2.1 mill a year. That's a total of 37 mill of his 42 guaranteed paid so far. He's scheduled to make 9 mill in 2012, which would put his total at 46 million after three years + any incentives he earns. So if those numbers are right, the first 3 years are guaranteed, and he will get a little more than that by staying on the roster.
The problem then becomes the ~3.2 million in signing bonus that is now prorated over the last 4 years of the deal. Thats a lot of cash to have in dead money if they cut him before the 2013 season. 9.6 million in dead money to cut him next offseason makes it tough to let him go, but he will count about 16 mill against the cap. Tough spot for a GM, but great spot for a player.
So... that brings us back to what is Mario worth. We were looking at someone's offer, $36M guaranteed over the first 3 years. Thats $3.3M/yr difference from what Peppers will make. Don't forget that includes an uncapped year.
My deal, I'm offering Mario $38M guaranteed in the first 3 years. $2.6M/yr difference. Like Peppers, there is a lot of money in there, $6M/yr that Mario can make if he & the team performs well over the first three years. Over the first two years of the contract, Mario can earn $42M..... that's pretty comparable. Plus my deal would keep Mario on the team at least through the first 4 years.
So, it's very "similar" & "affordable"
redwhiteblue
Waterboy
Thanks for sharing the insight. I don't think gathering tape of free agents means they have moved on from Mario or is any indication that he won't sign, it just sounds like a professional team doing its homework
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
3.3 million per year sounds small, but that's actually 10 million total over the first 3 years. That's a big discount for Mario to give, and I don't think he will be willing to do it. As I said earlier in this thread, a half dozen other teams have 40+ million in cap space this year and it will be like an uncapped year for them. The Texans won't be able to win a bidding war if it comes to that. I won't be the least bit shocked to see Mario get a 6 year 100 million dollar deal.
If you're talking about your proposed deal from this post:
...then no, it's not that similar. Peppers doesn't have 30 million tied up in incentives and 6 more in roster bonuses. Your deal (if I'm reading this right) offers 27 million in salary and 25 mil in signing bonuses over 5 years + 36 mill in potential incentives. That's an average of 10.4 million base salary over the whole contract. I don't think Mario is going to go for that. That's why in the other post I said you should change the team incentives to salary or reasonable individual incentives. Adding that 20 mill in salary would make the average 14.4 million before roster bonuses and sack incentives, but increases the value of the contract to 72 million. The total could be up to 88 million over 5 years for an average of 17.6 million, which seems out of the Texans' range to me.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I've said it before... Mario, sign a "cap" friendly deal with the Texans -or- don't let the door hit ya, where the good Lord hit ya!! (BTW, I'm on record as being someone that like Mario... a lot.... and wants him to be a Texan).
At the end of the day, I can see him signing with Carolina.