kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
You don't need to spend 1:1 to get a system quarterback which you are basically describing.
We could trade for Seneca Wallace.
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Manziel
- Thread starter Wolf
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You don't need to spend 1:1 to get a system quarterback which you are basically describing.
We could trade for Seneca Wallace.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Bright Lights isn't scripted workouts in the comfort of your home gym against a broom. We won't know how those guys react until we have see them in the 4th quarter against a Rex Ryan (type) defense and behind on the scoreboard.
'Johnny Time' was meant as a dig for his penchant for going off schedule and improvising. Which is useful but not compared to knowing and working your progression under duress.
hmmm... I hadn't heard of the Willie Roaf plot twist - or, more accurately, stab in the Texans' back by the NFL.
...I'll be damned....
maybe that's what happens when you make a deal with the devil...
TEXANRED
Texan-American
hmmm... I hadn't heard of the Willie Roaf plot twist - or, more accurately, stab in the Texans' back by the NFL.
...I'll be damned....
maybe that's what happens when you make a deal with the devil...
Not making the deal with the devil is how we ended up with the Texans.
Yes but Tebow didn't have the talent to go along with it.
markn
All Pro
Yes, but people aren't taking about talent, they're talking about "it" factor and the last played to be lauded this strongly with the "it" factor mantle was lord timmy.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Refresh my recollection. The last two QBs I remember with a lot of "it" conversation going into the draft were Tebow and VY. Who else has had similar "it" hype?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Jamarcus Russell?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I remember his hype mainly surrounding having a cannon for an arm and being a winner (which is kind of related).
Allstar
Bona fide
Basically any polarizing college player gets tagged with the 'IT' factor.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
RGIII had "IT", too, right?
When you have people trying to define a two letter word, "it" then yeah you know its been a looooong offseason.
Agreed. He, his trainer, & his agent set out to show the interested parties that he can work from under center & by all accounts he did so at his pro day.
The other guy set out to prove he can throw accurately without the glove & did not.
hmmm... I hadn't heard of the Willie Roaf plot twist - or, more accurately, stab in the Texans' back by the NFL.
...I'll be damned....
maybe that's what happens when you make a deal with the devil...
I followed the Saints pretty close at that time & had mixed feelings about Roaf wanting to come here. It might have been the thing that could turn this franchise around.... but I felt most of the players on the team were already in the "give me my paycheck" mode & Willie might have fell right into that groove & never seen a pro-bowl afterwards.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Not trying to define "it," trying to identify "it" and whether "it" translates to the NFL. "It" ended up meaning sh"it" for the 1st two examples so where are the positive ones?
Which team are you referring to with the bold?
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Selling the play action is a bout the entire offense. Not one player.
Watch the Ravens offense this year. Flacco is going to become a master play action guy in some people's minds.
I'm really thinking about the 2005 & 2006 team... obviously I'm way off on my Willie Roaf comment as I thought he was available to us in '05, '06, but looking at his history he would have been available to us in 2002...
So my memory's gotten the better of me again.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Pretty sure everyone involved in the conversation understands that. The QB is the key piece and Schaub was elite at that one aspect of the game. If the QB is bad at it, the rest is for naught.
Wrong on both accounts.
The QB is not the key piece and Schaub was not some special play action fake guy.
Yeah , Schaub really sold the handoff and hid the ball well after. Probably his best attribute.
I do not think Pro Days are as influential as the media circus makes them out to be.
Every single talent evaluator talks about film. What matters is what players can do in games, not how great they can work out without opposition.
What a great Pro Day - and it's alleged "pressure with lights on" - tells me is that a specific player will be good at shooting television commercials.
I would lose respect for any franchise that values Pro Day and/or combine performances over actual game film.
Different type of player, but same media and fan driven overhype as that UT kid everyone wanted in 2006.
Totally disgree with you here. Qb is not the only piece that needs to sell it but is the most important by far. Schaub was much better at it than most
Thanks for the personal insults to those that don't agree with you. I'm sure you know more than everyone else combined
When you look at the film , all the kid does is make plays .... against the very best competition the NCAA has to offer.
That other guy everyone wanted in 2006 .... was his own worst enemy.
You are right , film > pro day. But you have to understand that pro day is a pressure packed situation as its basically an interview for their future - Bridgewater flunked that test , Bortles made a C- and Manziel passed with flying colors.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
By all means please explain away our ignorance and in anticipation of your anticipated undisputeble wisdom I won't argue with you.
I thought Bortles received very good grades about his pro day?
The Manziel-Vince Young comparisons are getting ridiculous.
First off, the outcry and support for Manziel to get drafted is probably about 1/4th what is was for VY in 2006. Why? Because UT has many many more t-shirt fans in southern Texas than A&M does. Meaning that there are a lot more people who root for UT just because than for A&M. Most of the staunch support for Manziel comes from Aggies themselves, and we are not nearly the dominating force that the UT/Young fans were after the National Championship in 2006.
Second, they are two totally different players with totally different situations. Vince Young was a far more dominating physical athlete than Manziel. Young succeed on mostly having outstanding athleticism and physical tools for his position. Manziel, as shifty and quick as he may be, is nowhere near the physical specimen that Young was. Johnny has had to actually work very hard at his craft to get where he is today. People forget that he was very raw coming into his freshman year at A&M, and many didn't think he had what it took to be a QB at the college level.
I know it's easy to just compare Johnny and VY, but it really is a lazy comparison. Everyone wants to compare one player and their situation to someone else. Why can't we just look at him as an individual player in a unique situation, it doesn't always have to be tied to some player from the past...
First off, the outcry and support for Manziel to get drafted is probably about 1/4th what is was for VY in 2006. Why? Because UT has many many more t-shirt fans in southern Texas than A&M does. Meaning that there are a lot more people who root for UT just because than for A&M. Most of the staunch support for Manziel comes from Aggies themselves, and we are not nearly the dominating force that the UT/Young fans were after the National Championship in 2006.
Second, they are two totally different players with totally different situations. Vince Young was a far more dominating physical athlete than Manziel. Young succeed on mostly having outstanding athleticism and physical tools for his position. Manziel, as shifty and quick as he may be, is nowhere near the physical specimen that Young was. Johnny has had to actually work very hard at his craft to get where he is today. People forget that he was very raw coming into his freshman year at A&M, and many didn't think he had what it took to be a QB at the college level.
I know it's easy to just compare Johnny and VY, but it really is a lazy comparison. Everyone wants to compare one player and their situation to someone else. Why can't we just look at him as an individual player in a unique situation, it doesn't always have to be tied to some player from the past...
Receivers have to sell PA by selling that they are blocking and then breaking into routes, and the O line has to sell they are blocking for a run play and then break formation to pass protect....BUT, the defense pays the most attention to the QB therefore his "sell" of the PA pass is the most important of all; after all he is they one with the ball in his hands. Defenses always look to the QB for cues on what the offense does.
You can try to teach us whatever you want but the above it the cold hard truth.
Ok.
Whatever you say. Not going to try and teach you anything since apparently y'all know it all.
You're wrong, but who care doesn't matter. But if anyone wants to actually learn something just let me know.
:vincepalm:
Seriously, if you have something to say then just say it...If we are wrong please tell us how, because I am actually curious to hear what you have to say about it.
Stemp
Brew Master
It's better for wannabe Know-it-alls and fakes to act like they are wiser and more knowledgeable and just give a "you wouldn't understand" or "it's not worth explaining to you dummies" answer than to provide an actual explanation that he would may have to defend with people who actually ARE knowledgeable
It's far easier to hurl insults than to provide a reasonable discussion on why you have an opinion that disagrees with most
I didn't say people wouldn't understand.
People would understand, but I'm not going to argue.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You're being a drama queen. Just give your explanation.
Goatcheese
Texan
I think the O-line is the most important when it comes to selling playaction. If they're rolling back in pass protection at the snap, it doesn't really matter what the QB does. The defense knows it's a pass or a draw.
The QB is still very important though. Some guys just don't sell the fake well at all. You see them give an empty hand fake and then immediately turn around and start reading like any other drop back. Schaub was a master of the play fake. He put the ball into the back's hands and then slid it out and hid it while moving just like he would after a normal handoff. That's the difference between not biting at all and AJ running in open space without a defender within 10 yards.
Oh, I definitely understand the pro day emphasis on pressure.
However, "pro day pressure" reveals nothing about the pressure that really matters: post snap decisions when dudes are truly pressuring a QB.
As far as VY, nobody knew anything of the head case he would become. Dude had just won a national championship and the media analysts were already taking measurements for his yellow jacket.
Two different players, but same hype, IMO. NONE of these QBs have proven jack in the NFL, but to hear some of the experts, they are a "sure fire pick" (their words, btw, not mine).
I'll root for whoever the Texans take. I can only comment on the overbearing hype around some of them. I'm not a talent evaluator and I do not play one on the internets. I'm just a fan.
I'll ignore the face palm and go ahead and reply.
First of all, the defense isn't keying off of the qb. Before they even look for the ball they are reading keys. What are the linemen doing. TE, backs, receivers. The DLine and lb'ers in particular are generally reading the OL. Lb's May key in on RB's.
The scheme itself and getting the team, mainly the oline, to sell the play fake is the key. There is a reason the play action works with sage, Schaub, Plummer, yates, keenum, elway...there is a reason the zbs has produced many successful RB's. There is a reason some unheralded linemen have been great players in it.
The play action stretch play that we saw often times fools defenses is designed to look exactly like the stretch play until the qb pulls the ball.
Schaub wasn't some master play action guy. He did a good job "performing the dance" that is the zbs. It minimizes the importance of having super talent. But if you are super talented you should reallllly shine in it.
Just following the scheme itself does a lot of the work. Don't all teams scheme? Yes. But most other offenses rely in superior athletes beating your players. Zbs doesn't require superior athletes. But superior guys can be even more special in it IMO.
But I say all that to say that Schaub wasn't some master magician with the playfake. He was good. Solid. Ok. That's how I'd describe his playfake and everything else he brought to the table.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Well thanks for providing your explanation. You didn't educate a single person one iota. Some just differ with your conclusions.
Now who's being the drama queen?
So you speak for everyone now. You know that no one learned Anything?
If you still think you are right that Schaub was a master playfake guy, whatever. I'm not going to argue that. Believe what you want to.
Someone said they were interested so I explained the best I could on my phone on a message board while I work out.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Well when you talk down to certain people on said message board by telling them they are wrong and that you will teach them if they want to learn something, I think we all expected a little bit more than some lengthy incoherent paragraph that did very little to even address the point that you had tried to argue in the first place...
Telling someone they are wrong and that you will teach them if they want to learn is talking down to them?
Probably shouldn't be so sensitive.
And if my paragraph was incoherent, that's a you problem.
bah007
Hall of Fame
In the manner in which you implied that you had the answer, yes it looked that way. Until it turned out that you didn't have the answer.
It looks pretty clear to me who the sensitive one is.
You are a wise man, I think.
You should probably be asking to learn something instead of being so obtuse.
http://smartfootball.com/passing/a-...-you-better-pull-a-guard#sthash.6DVv4oRd.dpbs
If you don't know what the defenders are reading then of course you'd think the QB was "The most important" aspect of the play action success.
But you guys seem to be rejecting any education on the matter, so I'll let you wallow. Conversation has been fun though.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You provided Captain Obvious level generalities about play action and ZBS. I am well aware that the folks you were talking to Corrosion, JB, Stemp, etc. are well beyond that level of football knowledge so yes it is very safe to say you didn't teach anyone anything.
Nothing to argue as you provided no analysis. You basically said its easy with ZBS so nobody is good. Frankly pretty silly assertion as if multiple QBs being successful in a system means there are no differences how good they are within the system. But that's your position. I was hoping you actually had something to back up your position with - a criticism of has hand off technique, differences noted in what he does on runs v. play action, etc., even maybe some examples of QBs you think do have great play fakes. But apparently you don't.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Except that you didn't provide any analysis, facts, or proof that your answer is the right one, only that you have a differing opinion.
I do happen to know what the defenders are reading. As a LCB, my first key was the RG. My second key was the QB. And then I lock onto my WR. You seem to be under the impression that the defense only reads one key, as if what the QB does is unimportant as long as his line makes the play look like a run. That is simply untrue.
In fact, the link you provided would actually be a good argument that the defenders should be reading the QB more often than the OL.
If you are interested, I would love to continue the conversation.
This is me saying no one was good right?
This is the original quote I disputed:
Again, You are wrong on both accounts.
The reason I gave the break down of the zbs was to outline why the QB wasn't THE key piece. Why it's more scheme based, and why no one player has to be extra special or in your words "elite" at faking the pass.
You should stop looking for reasons to have your football intelligence insulted and just be open to learning.
Hell I am, but I'm also going to tell you you're wrong when you tell me 2+2 = 5.
You're wrong.
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