Just how short did his arms measure?
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LZ Report Draft Show....
- Thread starter LZ
- Start date
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Only three guys pushed out "mid-30" reps:
Long, Jake 37
Zuttah, Jeremy 35
Barton, Kirk 34
Three more guys did 31, and two more did 30.
Anything 30+ is exceptional for an OL, not the norm.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
NM, crappy source material.
Will try again soon.
Take 2:
William's arms ar 32 7/8, which makes them 3/8" shorter then Joe Thomas'. I don't think his arms will be a big issue to any team.
Will try again soon.
Take 2:
William's arms ar 32 7/8, which makes them 3/8" shorter then Joe Thomas'. I don't think his arms will be a big issue to any team.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Look, I stated he's still likely to go in round one, but you can't spin 21 reps for an Olineman into being a good thing. The DB's averaged around 20 reps
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Look, I stated he's still likely to go in round one, but you can't spin 21 reps for an Olineman into being a good thing. The DB's averaged around 20 reps
First off the DBs did NOT average 20 reps. If you take the top six DBs and average their lifts you get 20 1/3, once you start adding in all the guys who lifted 16 times and less that number starts to nosedive.
Secondly, I don't disagree that 21 reps is below average for a potential LT, but I do disagree that his arm lenght is going to be a concern. The reps will be more of a conerns then his wingspan. Williams will definitly need to lift better at his pro-day.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Still, if the guy's got short arms, he has a mechanical advantage for the bench. Only getting 21 should be a bit of a warning flag. He should be at least into the mid-20's.
I really wish they used the incline bench instead of the flat bench. Inclines have more of a strength carryover to the actions that players perform.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I agree with what you're saying about arm legth concerns. I mentioned the short arms because if anything, it should help his bench reps. I don't think I mentioned anything about how short arms effect an Olineman on the field.
From what I gather, we're on the same page here.
BTW, I was only looking at the top ten DB's when doing my comparision
If I remember correctly, he didn't lift very well either. I still think he'll be snatched up fairly quick too.
His had 21 reps. You would like for it to be higher, but I can tell you for a fact that fans make WAY too big of a deal about numbers like that for LTs. There is football strength and then there is muscle endurance that helps you lift longer. As long as a LT doesn't get pushed around on tape and as long as he has a strong core, then teams don't mind LTs who lift 20 to 24 reps. For a guard, on the other hand, that can be a problem since they play against power players. LTs get matched up against player who are usually 250 to 285 pounds so their rep numbers aren't as important as their quick feet.
I can tell you for a fact that short arms ARE a factor in draft posiitioning for some teams. Eric Winston fell to the 3rd round in part because some teams were scared off of his arm length and felt like he would have to be a RT instead the LT position he played in college.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
The running backs that lifted averaged roughly 20-21 reps. Not counting fullbacks, who all lifted above 20.
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
I don't deny that but the question is, how short is to short?
According to this as a source:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_y...=jm-prosconstackles041807&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Joe Thomas has an arm lenght of 32 1/2. And yes I've had trouble findin more then one source that states the same arm length for Joe Thomas.
From the combine we know that Chiris Williams has an arm length of 32 7/8.
And our beloved T-Rex, Eric Winston, has an arm length of 32 1/4.
Are we really to believe that the 1/4" difference between Thomas and Winston determines were they play? Or is it more a function of overall strength, hips and foot work, the ability to generate leverage and overal short distance speed and burst?
I'm checking up on it, but Thomas' arm lenght was longer than 32.5. I'm almost positive of that. However, he certainly didn't have long arms, that is for sure. Once a defender gets his hands on you, you are in trouble which is why arm lenght is a concern for NFL coaches when it comes to tackles and really all linemen.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I am confused on this and most likely it is due to my analytical side and being a former basketball coach teaching how to create space on the perimeter and how to leverage contact in the low post.
It would seem to me, and please correct if I am wrong, that once someone as their hands on you (the defense) it then becomes all about leverage, as it is all in your lower strength and balance.
I would think that long arms are beneficial as an offensive measure in taking the battle of attrition to the other side (defense) perhaps by punching the speed rush to the outside. I just cannot see them being beneficial once you are engaged.
I would like to be schooled on this by any member on this situation LZ presents.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I would think arm length increases the distance a DE has to travel to get to the QB .
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
I understand and trust that I versed that in my post. My post was based on the point of engagement.
Fox
Rookie
I get a different interpretation of what LZ said.
"However, he certainly didn't have long arms, that is for sure. Once a defender gets his hands on you, you are in trouble which is why arm lenght is a concern for NFL coaches when it comes to tackles and really all linemen."
It sounds like you interpreted that as saying once the defender gets his hands on you you need longer arms to win that battle or you're toast. I interpret that as saying you need long arms so you can hold the defender at a greater distance, otherwise he will get his hands on you and you're toast.
In other words, I agree that long arms don't seem like they'd be much of an advantage once you've let the defender get up in your grill, but I don't think that was his point. I think longer arms let you pop the defender and hold him back without letting him get close enough to really engage you.
texasguy346
Mod Squad
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
badboy
Hall of Fame
For me, I am more interested in a guy with a solid strong base, quick feet and knows how to slide and has good upper body strength. I have seen DEs blow around our guys and all you can do with your long arms then is to hold on and pray your QB does not get killed. I want a guy that can slide outside with the DE.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
More times than not, once the DE has won the hand battle he can manipulate the direction he wants to move you in order to get to the QB. Once he has his hands under the T pads, he now has the leverage advantage.
I'm not sure I'm typing what I really want to say. I feel like I'm stoned. I need more coffee....
badboy
Hall of Fame
How many times has our LT da jour chased the DE to the QB? Think of all the LTs we've flung into that quicksand hole and most can't go to the left. We need a LT with the feet of a short stop. Yes, if our guy gets his hands under the pads... thats why I gave my criteria. Too often, our LT is using his hands to brush off the QB as he gets up spitting dirt or commiting a hold.More times than not, once the DE has won the hand battle he can manipulate the direction he wants to move you in order to get to the QB. Once he has his hands under the T pads, he now has the leverage advantage.
I'm not sure I'm typing what I really want to say. I feel like I'm stoned. I need more coffee....
Great analysis Fox ! That seems logical.
OK, so why is this physical attribute of arm length more important for LTs than RTs. I think I know, but I'd like to have my theory confirmed by someone like yourself who apparently knows for sure ?
BTW, I'd echo the request of the guy who said he'd really like to have Lances
Thursday night Draft sessiosn also put on podcast format.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Long arms are especially important for the Tackle protecting the QB blindside (in most cases it's the Left Tackle). If there is a DE coming around the edge of the RT, a right handed QB can see this a lot easier and avoid the rush by stepping up or protecting the football from an arm slap. The QB has a much harder time seeing the edge rusher from behind him (blindside/left side). In this situation it's important for the LT to have Long arms the push the DE farther away from the QB or essentially making the the DE do a larg arc around the LT to get to the QB. In most cases the QB will take his 3 step drop and get rid of the ball- having a few extra split seconds that the LT is forcing the DE to take maybe 2 more steps (instead of a straighter line to the QB) is very important in protecting against QB Sacks, Hurries, or Fumbles as the DE slaps the QB's arm as it's going back.
That's my theory at least- but as mentioned arm length alone isn't going to get it done.
There was a great episode on The Discovery Channel (it was like myth busters but not sure if that's the show)- and they do a technical analysis of real NFL DE's rushing the QB. The have the blocking dummy (LT) in different spots (only inches apart from the original spot) to demonstrate a left tackle forcing the DE to move 6inches farther away from the QB. In most cases just that small amount of time allowed the QB to get rid of the ball. They also compared I think it was Roethlisberger and Culpeppers throwing motions and the effect of what a quick release vs. a long wind up throw would do- in allowing the DE to get to the QB. I'll try and find a link to the video it was VERY VERY interesting.
badboy
Hall of Fame
6 inches makes a huge difference and that should be taken care of by one step by the LT, yet our guys have had a hard time doing that. One of the reasons I was so high on Charles Spencer in TC as the guy was huge, strong and pretty good feet. Hopefully Gibbs will fix this problem for us. Salaam has held up pretty good considering.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I think that show was called Sport Science or something like that. Very interesting.
Well basically you are right. However, if a defensive end (or any player) gets his hands positioned on you first, it puts him in a position of strength and he can "steer" the linemen in the direction he wants - at least in theory. If I were to come up with a parallel in basketball it might be with blocking out. You want to get your butt in your defenders lap as quickly as possibly so he can't create space as he attempts to go for the offensive rebound. The quicker you shut down that attempt to create space, the harder it will be to get to the object of his desire - the rebound (the QB).
Obviously the arms are just one part of the equation. Feet are more important than arm length, but teams take strenght, intelligence, arm length and feet all into consideration.
- We look at who helped and hurt themselves at the combine.
- We talk about cap casualties and which free agents could be on the Texans radar starting tonight.
- We talk about WRs in this year's draft.
- We speak with Houston-based sports agent Jeff Nalley about the draft and free agent process.
Next week we will start doing the show live and will be taking calls. If you want to hear a clip from tonight's show (It goes every Thursday from 6 to 7 PM on 1560thegame.com (1560 AM), then go to my blog on the Chronicle.
- We talk about cap casualties and which free agents could be on the Texans radar starting tonight.
- We talk about WRs in this year's draft.
- We speak with Houston-based sports agent Jeff Nalley about the draft and free agent process.
Next week we will start doing the show live and will be taking calls. If you want to hear a clip from tonight's show (It goes every Thursday from 6 to 7 PM on 1560thegame.com (1560 AM), then go to my blog on the Chronicle.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Sweet, you can count me in on listening!
Just out of curosity, what athletes does Jeff Nalley represent?
Here's there web-site:
http://selectsportsgroup.com/main.shtml
Not yet. It hasn't been officially reported to the NFLPA so there is no way to find out yet.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Lance, you ever get an offical measurement on J. Thomas' arm length?
Sweet, you can count me in on listening!
Just out of curosity, what athletes does Jeff Nalley represent?
They have guys like Welker, Derrick Johnson, Ben Leber, Adam Carriker, Kevin Kolb, Charles Tillman and many others but in this year's crop they have:
David Roach, FS, TCU
Donnie Avery, WR, UH
Chase Ortiz, DE, TCU
Zach Bowman, CB, Nebraska
Jordy Nelson, WR, Kansas State
Alvin Bowen, LB, Iowa State
Marcus Walker, CB, Oklahoma
Chris Harrington, DE, Texas A&M
No. I'm trying to see if I can get my dad to dig it up but for some reason it isn't on the top of his priority list at the moment. I'll get someone to find it.
Tommy Blake is the DE and I'm almost positive he won't be drafted. He has a severe public anxiety disorder and I believe I read he was bi-polar as well. He is weighing in the 280s right now and that his 30 pounds over his playing weight. He easily had first round talent entering the season but he started acting strange before the season and had one famous episode in front of scouts who were there to see him practice before the season started. I just think his baggage makes him almost undraftable.
SEC Guy's Top 10 Draft Prospects
1. Chris Long
2. Glenn Dorsey
3. Darren McFadden
4. Quentin Groves
5. Jacob Hester
6. Matt Ryan
7. Marcus Howard
8. D.J. Hall
9. Brian Brohm
10. Jordy Nelson
Fox
Rookie
Unfortunately I'm not much of an expert either, but I agree with much of what Ole Miss said. Since most teams have right handed QB's, the best pass rushers line up at RE so they can attack from the blind side, leaving the QB clueless to his impending meeting with the turf. Longer arms allow you to better keep the rusher at bay or force him to take a longer arcing approach that causes them to overshoot the QB and temporarily take them out of the play. I can't think of a reason why it'd be a bad thing to have longer arms as a RT, but it seems you'd want to have the guys who do have that advantage paired up against the D's best pass rushing threat.
TexansFanatic
Extremist
I found this:
Texans re-signed WR Andre Davis to a four-year, $16 million contract. NFL Network's Adam Schefter reports the deal contains $8 million guaranteed.
http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/Houston_Texans_resigned_Andre_Davis/172788
badboy
Hall of Fame
Thanks, I had not been able to pin down the guarantee. Kind of steep but I am ok with it cause I think he will be a player and it sends a message to others that they will be taken care of if they step up.
Specnatz
Hall of Fame
My ex has delt with this a lot (ok one of the ex's) it is not something that you snap yor fingers at and you are cured. Maybe a 7th round or FA contract so you have rights to him might be possible Teams always are willing to take a chance on things like this because you never know. This last sentece is said because of experience.
I do not envy Blake because I know how hard it is on him. He does not want to feel this way it is just at times he has no choice.