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Luck, Mahomes, or Watson

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
The question is unfair on Watson, because we've seen the other two in good offenses. From what we have seen though you can't really pick against Mahomes. Watson may be the best, but we also may never find that out.
It's really no different than the idea of putting together a sort of mock draft, and to a larger extent scouting. Different kids from different offenses/defenses/schemes/coaching staffs/competition/etc and we do our best to decipher which one we feel the best about having on our team.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
The question is unfair on Watson, because we've seen the other two in good offenses. From what we have seen though you can't really pick against Mahomes. Watson may be the best, but we also may never find that out.
Depends on how you look at it. We know how Watson handles adversity & less than optimal situations. Aces.

We don't know how the other guys will do.

We have to hope & it is likely he will play better when things around him improve.
 

markn

All Pro
It's really no different than the idea of putting together a sort of mock draft, and to a larger extent scouting. Different kids from different offenses/defenses/schemes/coaching staffs/competition/etc and we do our best to decipher which one we feel the best about having on our team.
Yeah, I get that. I didn't really explain myself very well. It very much depends on the scheme you intend to run and the HC view on what he wants to do. If you're picking a QB and then are going to build everything, including philosophy and coaching around them, I'd pick Mahomes, but you can make a case for all of them.
 

markn

All Pro
Depends on how you look at it. We know how Watson handles adversity & less than optimal situations. Aces.

We don't know how the other guys will do.

We have to hope & it is likely he will play better when things around him improve.
That's a good point too. If you're planning on putting a dogs-breakfast of an O-line in front of your star QB, then Watson has shown he can cope.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Yeah, I get that. I didn't really explain myself very well. It very much depends on the scheme you intend to run and the HC view on what he wants to do. If you're picking a QB and then are going to build everything, including philosophy and coaching around them, I'd pick Mahomes, but you can make a case for all of them.
I hope BO'b invests in some good books this summer.

Something by Bill Walsh maybe....
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
That's a good point too. If you're planning on putting a dogs-breakfast of an O-line in front of your star QB, then Watson has shown he can cope.
Gotta fix the OL if you want to maximize Watson's talents and get him another WR.
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Mahomes
Luck
Watson
Wentz
Goff
Mayfield
Tannehill
Winston
Darnold
Garoppolo
Jackson
Prescott
Trubisky


Next season is going to be exciting
 

thunderkyss

It's good to be me... again.
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Brady/Rodgers/Brees?
Rivers, Cam, Wilson... I was just naming the young up & comers. Luck probably shouldn't have been included, seems like he's been around forever. I threw Tannehill in there just to see if I could sneak him past
 

Norg

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
well so far tom brady and crew have wipped all 3 QBs you have named

so ill take a 44 year old brady of them lol
 

Sonny

TexSon Proud
The kid via Clemson.
Mr. Trevor Lawrence

Ironic how our qb is via Clemson but I'll be honest.. I would toss Watson out like yesterday's newspaper (if anyone remembers those) if I could have T.Law as that kid is gonna reset the bar.

A caveat to that.. will someone explain why he's forced to stay in college ANOTHER 2 YEARS instead of going pro asap?

Side Note: Someone will offer three 1st round picks to move up and snag him when is finally 'allowed' to go pro.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
The kid via Clemson.
Mr. Trevor Lawrence

Ironic how our qb is via Clemson but I'll be honest.. I would toss Watson out like yesterday's newspaper (if anyone remembers those) if I could have T.Law as that kid is gonna reset the bar.

A caveat to that.. will someone explain why he's forced to stay in college ANOTHER 2 YEARS instead of going pro asap?

Side Note: Someone will offer three 1st round picks to move up and snag him when is finally 'allowed' to go pro.
- Because kids would generally get killed coming out of high school or after their freshman year of college. Yes there are exceptions to this - Fournette probably could've done it, Clowney, Herschel back in the day, and a few others - but those are very rare and many more would have their careers ruined early or worse could happen physically to those who aren't really ready. I think it's by and large a good role for this sport and this league.

- And I'd rather beat Lawrence with Deshaun at this point. He's our dude now.
 

Sonny

TexSon Proud
- Because kids would generally get killed coming out of high school or after their freshman year of college. Yes there are exceptions to this - Fournette probably could've done it, Clowney, Herschel back in the day, and a few others - but those are very rare and many more would have their careers ruined early or worse could happen physically to those who aren't really ready. I think it's by and large a good role for this sport and this league.

- And I'd rather beat Lawrence with Deshaun at this point. He's our dude now.
I dig D.Watson but 5 (maybe 6) years from now T.Law is gonna go H.A.M. on the NFL.

That said....
So, you believe it's fair that a kid has to hang in college for 3 years making money for the University and the NCAA rather then going pro and making money for himself? Because, and I'm just spitballing here, why would you want to take a chance on being forced to play 3 years of college ball and the chances that go with it ie. having an injury and throwing away "his" deserved millions.?.

I don't care if you're 12.. if someone is willing to pay you and you're willing to take a shot.. you shouldn't have a bullshit biased institution telling someone they can't.
It's horse pucky.
This coming from a former NCAA slave but I still preach the truth.

I defy anyone to debate that resolve.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
I dig D.Watson but 5 (maybe 6) years from now T.Law is gonna go H.A.M. on the NFL.

That said....
So, you believe it's fair that a kid has to hang in college for 3 years making money for the University and the NCAA rather then going pro and making money for himself? Because, and I'm just spitballing here, why would you want to take a chance on being forced to play 3 years of college ball and the chances that go with it ie. having an injury and throwing away "his" deserved millions.?.

I don't care if you're 12.. if someone is willing to pay you and you're willing to take a shot.. you shouldn't have a bullshit biased institution telling someone they can't.
It's horse pucky.
This coming from a former NCAA slave but I still preach the truth.

I defy anyone to debate that resolve.
And I'll gladly debate it in full when I have more time today after work..
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
I dig D.Watson but 5 (maybe 6) years from now T.Law is gonna go H.A.M. on the NFL.

That said....
So, you believe it's fair that a kid has to hang in college for 3 years making money for the University and the NCAA rather then going pro and making money for himself? Because, and I'm just spitballing here, why would you want to take a chance on being forced to play 3 years of college ball and the chances that go with it ie. having an injury and throwing away "his" deserved millions.?.

I don't care if you're 12.. if someone is willing to pay you and you're willing to take a shot.. you shouldn't have a bullshit biased institution telling someone they can't.
It's horse pucky.
This coming from a former NCAA slave but I still preach the truth.

I defy anyone to debate that resolve.
In my opinion I don't think ANYONE is deserving of "millions" for being able to play a sport, but that's not for me to say as that is the world we live in. He will get that easily in due time. That said if a college offers a scholarship (education in exchange for athletic ability) then it is only right that the kid full fill his end of the bargain if he accepts that scholarship. Accepting the offered coaching, training and facilities to increase your value and then bailing on the institution that provided it for you is self serving. Risk of injury is something all athletes understand and take willingly when they play the sport.....and....accept scholarships based on sport.

Again...just my opinion.
 

Sonny

TexSon Proud
And I'll gladly debate it in full when I have more time today after work..
I should have been more specific... You and anyone can debate it all you/they want... but you(they)'d still be wrong.

There is zero room for... meh... you read me the first time.

All do respect Molly but even Clinton couldn't grease me into agreeing with NCAA's pro-slavery..
 

Sonny

TexSon Proud
In my opinion I don't think ANYONE is deserving of "millions" for being able to play a sport, but that's not for me to say as that is the world we live in. He will get that easily in due time. That said if a college offers a scholarship (education in exchange for athletic ability) then it is only right that the kid full fill his end of the bargain if he accepts that scholarship. Accepting the offered coaching, training and facilities to increase your value and then bailing on the institution that provided it for you is self serving. Risk of injury is something all athletes understand and take willingly when they play the sport.....and....accept scholarships based on sport.

Again...just my opinion.
There are so many things wrong with your pov I can't really wrap my head around it. Not trying to be a dick but.. really, bro?
 

theCATALYST

"Fake" Fan
There are so many things wrong with your pov I can't really wrap my head around it. Not trying to be a dick but.. really, bro?
No offense taken, like I said...all opinion.
That said, if I am being short sighted, and you have the time. Educate me. I am never against learning something new.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
And I'll gladly debate it in full when I have more time today after work..
Yet, MLB has figured out how to exist with both options on the table. NFL needs a NFDL, so football players have the same option as well. CFB wants this rule in place to keep the money flowing into their coffers, they don't care about the student/athlete.
 

OptimisticTexan

Hall of Fame
When Trevor Lawrence becomes draft eligible and if he's maintained his success while remaining grounded.....I wouldn't be surprised to see some NFL teams throwing a Herschel Walker or Ditka/Williams type of deal at the team who holds the first pick.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
Yet, MLB has figured out how to exist with both options on the table. NFL needs a NFDL, so football players have the same option as well. CFB wants this rule in place to keep the money flowing into their coffers, they don't care about the student/athlete.
And I don't disagree with this.

My argument isn't beholden to the success of the NCAA.
 

Mollywhopper

Facilitator
Staff member
I should have been more specific... You and anyone can debate it all you/they want... but you(they)'d still be wrong.

There is zero room for... meh... you read me the first time.

All do respect Molly but even Clinton couldn't grease me into agreeing with NCAA's pro-slavery..
Well if that's your firm position then I suppose there's not much reason for me to reply.

And like I just stated, my reasons aren't tied to what's best for the NCAA. It's about kids being ready or not for this specific league.
 
I should have been more specific... You and anyone can debate it all you/they want... but you(they)'d still be wrong.

There is zero room for... meh... you read me the first time.

All do respect Molly but even Clinton couldn't grease me into agreeing with NCAA's pro-slavery..
So in other words you are not looking for a debate/discussion you are looking to brow beat someone with your OPINION. As Molly said if that is the hill you have chosen to die on then there really isn't much point in trying to discuss it with you. To bad, actually sounded like an interesting topic, oh well, on to the next circus.
 

FuzzyLogic

Mathematically Possible
NCAA slavery huh...

What school did you go to? Did you go on a full ride scholarship? How much is the tuition per year?

As others said, no real point in trying to have this discussion - since you KNOW you are right - even though your opinion is completely wrong.

Any way -

- NCAA players should be paid at some level (given the amount of cash the NCAA and schools make from their effort) scholarship/tuition should be part of that package.
- Would agree with an NFL development league, some kids don't want to go to college, don't take advantage of the opportunity while there - it shouldn't be the deciding factor if they have the talent.
- No, they shouldn't come straight from high school to the NFL - outside the handful that have been named, very few could survive the physical punishment of the NFL (e.g. not strong enough, need a program to add some bulk, strength, endurance etc.)

We can still discuss - regardless if certain 'know it all's' think they already have it figured out.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
Reid is an excellent offensive mind in the NFL. OB needs a helmet and a mouthpiece.
I would like to see how BOB could do with the Chiefs talent.

Probably not as good, because as of right now Mahomes is better than Watson. This doesn't mean Watson cant become as good as Mahomes.
 
NCAA slavery huh...

What school did you go to? Did you go on a full ride scholarship? How much is the tuition per year?

As others said, no real point in trying to have this discussion - since you KNOW you are right - even though your opinion is completely wrong.

Any way -

- NCAA players should be paid at some level (given the amount of cash the NCAA and schools make from their effort) scholarship/tuition should be part of that package.
- Would agree with an NFL development league, some kids don't want to go to college, don't take advantage of the opportunity while there - it shouldn't be the deciding factor if they have the talent.
- No, they shouldn't come straight from high school to the NFL - outside the handful that have been named, very few could survive the physical punishment of the NFL (e.g. not strong enough, need a program to add some bulk, strength, endurance etc.)

We can still discuss - regardless if certain 'know it all's' think they already have it figured out.
I agree with you on pretty much all points. Its one thing I would actually like the XFL to become, if Vinny Mac can control himself. Almost a minor leagues for young players or a place for vets that can't compete at NFL level any more to still get some play time and make some money.

Also you are 100% right about not going from high school straight to the NFL. Anyone who says this clearly understand nothing about how the human body develops or doesn't care how badly a young kid gets hurt. If an 18 year old kid gets hammered by someone like a JJ Watt its going to cause permanent damage to them. They need those extra years to allow their body to develop and that weight program that they will teach them in college. High schools can't and shouldn't teach kids that kind of thing.

Also college allows some kids to actually get noticed by an NFL team. The Texans, for example, can't send scouts to every high school out there. Hell I'm not sure they could to every high school in Houston. So they focus on college and just keep an ear on what is happening at high school level. Colleges, however, have that relationship with the high schools and mostly scout the high schools so a kid from a D2 or 3 High school may still get a chance to play for a D1 college which in turn will get NFL eyes on them.
 

steelbtexan

Hall of Fame
I dig D.Watson but 5 (maybe 6) years from now T.Law is gonna go H.A.M. on the NFL.

That said....
So, you believe it's fair that a kid has to hang in college for 3 years making money for the University and the NCAA rather then going pro and making money for himself? Because, and I'm just spitballing here, why would you want to take a chance on being forced to play 3 years of college ball and the chances that go with it ie. having an injury and throwing away "his" deserved millions.?.

I don't care if you're 12.. if someone is willing to pay you and you're willing to take a shot.. you shouldn't have a bullshit biased institution telling someone they can't.
It's horse pucky.
This coming from a former NCAA slave but I still preach the truth.

I defy anyone to debate that resolve.
The kid doesn't have to accept a scholarship. The courts ruled the kid has to be out of highschool for 3 yrs before they are eligble to play.

If a poor black kid went to the pros straight out of highschool and failed would this be considered racist? The courts ruled for a happy medium.
 

Sonny

TexSon Proud
I played at Oklahoma and then transferred and played at Texas Tech. I'll jump on all the other points later, gentlemen.

Real quick though... I was still half in a bottle when I tossed out the last several posts if you couldn't tell by the timeline. That said I'm still right. But I'll try not to quote browbeat unquote anyone or their opinion as I have respect for everyone on the board.

Peace
 

BOBdaFRAUD

Waterboy
2 maaaaybe 3 till he's broken and he will keep winning rings as long as the game is decided by ringer refs.

:D

I am really gravitating to NBA and hockey lately. These refs are killing me.........


I mean Brady is the GOAT, a line hell bent on protecting the GOAT and great coach in Bill B (best adjusting EVER) and you hit Brady's hand and its a ROUGHING the PASSER and free 15. OMG its impossible. I hate to whine about it, but man the odds are so rough.

Even the golden state warriors are palatable as these are players that choose to take less, play unselfish for rings. I mean the refs are external forces changing outcomes of the game.


pass interferance and roughing the passer should have been reviewable a long time ago. It has soured the game
 
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BOBdaFRAUD

Waterboy
I think the league is getting choked out of fresh air. What I am saying is the great ones always proved a point and walked away. This guy wont walk on a era where QBs can't be touched.
 

Shishkabob

All Pro
:D

I am really gravitating to NBA and hockey lately. These refs are killing me.........


I mean Brady is the GOAT, a line hell bent on protecting the GOAT and great coach in Bill B (best adjusting EVER) and you hit Brady's hand and its a ROUGHING the PASSER and free 15. OMG its impossible. I hate to whine about it, but man the odds are so rough.

Even the golden state warriors are palatable as these are players that choose to take less, play unselfish for rings. I mean the refs are external forces changing outcomes of the game.


pass interferance and roughing the passer should have been reviewable a long time ago. It has soured the game
you are gravitating towards the NBA because of bad officiating in the NFL..... well you won't be watching that league very long lol

the NBA has by far the worst officiating out of the 3 major sports, which is why they started doing the last 2 minute reports so they can tell everyone about all the calls they missed or got wrong that costs teams the game.
 

EVOLVIST

Kid A
Watching Mahomes this weekend, and I'm taking Watson.

1.) Nothing Mahomes did in the field was something that Watson couldn't do with the same talent around him.

2.) Mahomes has had zero hardship outside of football compared to Watson. Give me the intestinal fortitude that Watson has over a glass of warm milk any day of the week.

That said, I know we don't have an offensive line; nonetheless, it's a sad state that OB can't scheme for sh!t like some of these teams going to the dance.

I have no doubt that Watson could have dinked and dunked like Brady or made some air like Goff.
 

eriadoc

Texan-American
Watching Mahomes this weekend, and I'm taking Watson.

1.) Nothing Mahomes did in the field was something that Watson couldn't do with the same talent around him.

2.) Mahomes has had zero hardship outside of football compared to Watson. Give me the intestinal fortitude that Watson has over a glass of warm milk any day of the week.

That said, I know we don't have an offensive line; nonetheless, it's a sad state that OB can't scheme for sh!t like some of these teams going to the dance.

I have no doubt that Watson could have dinked and dunked like Brady or made some air like Goff.
Yeah, like I said upthread, I'd take Reid and Watson over OB and Mahomes. I really don't think anyone can convince me that Andy Reid couldn't have accomplished the same things this season with Watson on that team. And that's not taking anything away from Mahomes.
 
Yeah, like I said upthread, I'd take Reid and Watson over OB and Mahomes. I really don't think anyone can convince me that Andy Reid couldn't have accomplished the same things this season with Watson on that team. And that's not taking anything away from Mahomes.
Agreed, the biggest thing is KC, whether Reid or Bieniemy, saw what kind of QB they had and they adjusted the game plan around that. You know you have a gunslinger, Favre style QB that is going to shoot from the hip then you make sure the targets are a lot closer so he can hit them on the move. Watson, a mobile QB with a laser targeting system, though is playing under pretty much the same game plan as a stationary turret with the aim of Stevie Wonder, Osweiler, a cannon that only knows how to throw at one speed, Mallet, or a backup that curls up on the field in the fetal position, Hoyer. Not sure WTF Savage was other than a failure.

The point is whether true or not the perception is that BoB tries to adjust the QB to fit the system rather than the system to fit the QB. Part of that, exactly how much is up for debate, is the level of talent we have around Watson but part of that, again up for debate how much, is that BoB goes back to the plays he feels comfortable with. Hopefully after this off season and when we get some new talent it will look better. All I know is for me this is the make or break year, if we don't make some noise in the next year or so then we might as well go into rebuild mode and if we are doing that anyway then lets clean house.
 

Shishkabob

All Pro
Agreed, the biggest thing is KC, whether Reid or Bieniemy, saw what kind of QB they had and they adjusted the game plan around that. You know you have a gunslinger, Favre style QB that is going to shoot from the hip then you make sure the targets are a lot closer so he can hit them on the move. Watson, a mobile QB with a laser targeting system, though is playing under pretty much the same game plan as a stationary turret with the aim of Stevie Wonder, Osweiler, a cannon that only knows how to throw at one speed, Mallet, or a backup that curls up on the field in the fetal position, Hoyer. Not sure WTF Savage was other than a failure.

The point is whether true or not the perception is that BoB tries to adjust the QB to fit the system rather than the system to fit the QB. Part of that, exactly how much is up for debate, is the level of talent we have around Watson but part of that, again up for debate how much, is that BoB goes back to the plays he feels comfortable with. Hopefully after this off season and when we get some new talent it will look better. All I know is for me this is the make or break year, if we don't make some noise in the next year or so then we might as well go into rebuild mode and if we are doing that anyway then lets clean house.
Reid is still running the same offense he did with Alex Smith, it just looks better because he has a QB with some balls
 
designed rollouts? yea its about the same, Mahomes will just leave the pocket more often
To be fair when Smith did throw it he was pretty good at hitting his target, 90+ QB every year except rookie year, he just should have maybe done more to give himself time to throw it. He always struck me as your classic pocket passer, give him 3-5 seconds and he'll hit the target every time but if he has to move then best you can hope for is a short run or throwing it away. Wonder if they had an O line like Dallas has always tried to put in front of their QB if Smith could have done more.
 


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