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Listening to Mark Vandemere on 610.....

J

jayseed2002

Guest
I was on the way home yesterday and he brought up an interesting stat on David YUGO and Joey Harrington:
Games JH-58 DY-60

Games started JH-55 DY-58

ATT JH-1802 DY 1628,

COMP. JH-986 DY- 941

PCT. JH-54.7 DY-57.8

Yards JH-10,242 DY-10,624

Yards per Attempt JH-5.68 DY-6.53

LG. JH-86 DY-81

TD'S JH-60 DY-48

INT. JH-62 DY-53

20+ pass plays JH-118 DY-118

40+ pass plays JH-19 DY-18

Passer Rating JH-68.1 DY-73.7

The numbers are scary!!!! They are VERY SIMILAR! One not only loses his job but gets cut..... the other gets a multi-year, multi-million dollar extension. Detroit also won MORE games with Harrington than we won with David Yugo.... please draft VY! :redtowel:
 
You have to look at the talent level around the two. Harrington went to an established team that surrounded him with three first round draft choice recievers and a decent offensive line. David CARR went to an expansion team that didn't exactly stockpile the roster with talent. Carr has also been hurt more than Harrington, maybe because of the aforementioned offensive line. It's unfair to compare the two.

This being said without even mentioning the coaching, which I'll choose not to dwell on. I'd rather pretend it never happened.
 
A big stat that you are missing is SACKS!!! I think Joey was sacked about 78 time in his career. While David was sacked 250+ ( and still able to put some numbers up) I'm for drafting Young, and keeping Carr. Who knows what is going to happen :twocents:
 
Harrington had an established team.

DC went to a team composed of players noone else wanted, and 3 years of rookie drafts
 
you have to be freakin kiddin me....if you really think they are that close as players...i dont even know I'm beside myself

Hey here's an idea...acually watch games...don't just look up stats.
 
jayseed2002 said:
Yes Detroit is LOADED with talent, that is why they have all of those HIGH first round choices! Established team huh......:ok: seems they have been pretty bad for awhile now.:)
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You seem to be missing the point on what I'm saying.:brickwall Harrington was put in a much better position to succeed than Carr. They actually gave him some weapons, and he was about the same as Carr. If Carr was given the opportunity (and coaching) Harrington was, he would have had a much better chance to succeed. I don't think Detroit's talent is horrible, they coaching an QB play has been suspect.

By established team, I meant that they had an organization in place, and had some players. The Texans were starting from scratch. I think that would qualify them as less established than a team that has been in existence for over sixty years.

Carr may not be an NFL caliber QB, but we don't know yet. He needs a chance to fail with a real NFL offense with real NFL talent before he can be called a bust.
 
jayseed2002 said:
Yes Detroit is LOADED with talent, that is why they have all of those HIGH first round choices! Established team huh......:ok: seems they have been pretty bad for awhile now.:)
Click to expand...

Harrington also got rid of the ball to the other team on a frequent basis. I'd rather have the sack.
 
jayseed2002 said:
Let's see how established Detroit was... in 2001 they were 2-14, the Texans were NON-Existent....
2002 Houston goes 4-12..... the "established NFL team" goes 3-13

2003 Both teams go 5-11

2004 Houston goes 7-9..... Detroit with all its talent goes 6-10

2005 Houston goes 2-14..... JH wins 150% more games than David Yugo ( 5 wins ) and he gets cut!

This must be the Board of The David Yugo family.... CALL A DUCK A DUCK!!!!! 4 years....that was his "learning" time..... now he gets a new system..... guess he gets to draw ANOTHER 4 years worth of paychecks before anybody will hold him accountable. :brickwall
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Ok, you obviously have an agenda here, so I'll ask. Who do you want to be the QB for the Texans in 2006?
 
PS: Most sportswriters are agreeing that JH's problem was that the Lions (including his teammates) gave up on him way too early. They didn't believe in him, and he didn't feel "wanted." Carr's got new coaches and teammates now who want to believe in him. Thats why Gaff was let go I bet. He didn't fit the profile
 
Carr and Harrington both have not lived up to expectations. Carr has been extended and will be the Texans QB next year and Harrington is looking for a job. That is really all we need to know until the games start being played.
 
Carr is easily the better of the two. Not saying he has been great, but clearly he has better physical ability. I still wonder about the mental part of the game for him, but it's very obvious to me that Kubes is surronding him with enough weapons to take any excuses away from him. If he is still miserable, then we will replace him. Not this year, and not with Vince. And of course, the best scenerio is that he steps up and at least gives us decent Quaterbacking.
 
There's a reason Pendry doesn't have a job anywhere right now, and a reason Capers didn't get a HC job with all the openings as well.
 
jayseed2002 said:
and there a reason they BOTH GOT THE JOB to begin with......seems that Charlie and Bob have made mistakes before by hiring both of them..... now it looks like they made a mistake with David Yugo as well. They cut their ties with bad coaching..... now cut the ties with a quarterback who can't take them where they want to go. DRAFT VY!
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Ok, it makes sense now. You want them to draft Vince Young, so David Carr must be the second coming of Satan.:ok:

Look, they have made enough adjustments to be a real NFL offense next year. If they add Moulds and Bush, they'll have plenty of talent around Carr. How do you know that Carr can't take them where they want to go? Because he can't win with Corey Bradford, Jabar Gafney, Mark Bruener, and one of the worst coaching staffs in league history means he can't win at all? I think your burnt orange glasses are making you a little short sighted on this issue.
 
jayseed2002 said:
You watch how this thing plays out. I LOVE THE TEXANS, but they are going to MAKE a HUGE mistake! They need to admit that David Yugo was NOT WORTHY of a first pick overall. I have no doubt in my mind that Tony Banks or just about any NFL journeymen could have quartebacked them to a 18-46 record over the first 4 years. People always say David needs this, David needs that, It's ALWAYS somebody elses fault.... The OL, the receivers, play calling, coaching, etc..... when will the finger be pointed at DAVID and realize he is part of the PROBLEM and NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION! :deadhorse
Click to expand...

I guess we'll find out this season.
 
jayseed2002 said:
You watch how this thing plays out. I LOVE THE TEXANS, but they are going to MAKE a HUGE mistake! They need to admit that David Yugo was NOT WORTHY of a first pick overall. I have no doubt in my mind that Tony Banks or just about any NFL journeymen could have quartebacked them to a 18-46 record over the first 4 years. People always say David needs this, David needs that, It's ALWAYS somebody elses fault.... The OL, the receivers, play calling, coaching, etc..... when will the finger be pointed at DAVID and realize he is part of the PROBLEM and NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION! :deadhorse
Click to expand...

David was PART of the problem. I have no qualms with that statement. Saying he is not part of the solution is just wrong though. You have ZERO idea if he is or isn't yet. I take it your name is not God or Kreskin. He now has the weapons he needs. If he doesn't produce decently, we can get another QB. They have them every year in the draft ya know. Or oh I forgot, VY is the only decent QB to ever hit the draft in the history of the NFL. Ya, we get it already. :brickwall
 
Can we wait and see how the new scheme and new players help David before we continue to blame all of our problems on him? I still don't see how people can blame hime if he doesn't have a line
 
jayseed2002 said:
You watch how this thing plays out. I LOVE THE TEXANS, but they are going to MAKE a HUGE mistake! They need to admit that David Yugo was NOT WORTHY of a first pick overall. I have no doubt in my mind that Tony Banks or just about any NFL journeymen could have quartebacked them to a 18-46 record over the first 4 years. People always say David needs this, David needs that, It's ALWAYS somebody elses fault.... The OL, the receivers, play calling, coaching, etc..... when will the finger be pointed at DAVID and realize he is part of the PROBLEM and NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION! :deadhorse
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Well, David Carr did need this and that. Carr hasn't had an offensive line at all in his career. Carr has been sacked 208 times. Harrington was sacked 77 times. You could put God behind center, and he won't be able to work wonders with the protection we had. You're making it sound like it was all Carr's fault. It wasn't. We had AJ as our reciever and no one else. We had no NFL quality tight end. And once again, our O-line. We started Victor Riley for half our games last season. It doesn't get much worse than that. Yes Carr had a terrible season, but to blame it all on him is being stupid and ignorant. And either way, we've signed him to a contract and there's a very, very, very small chance Vince Young will be drafted. Sorry.
 
Man, he's going to have a real line and a ton of real options this season. With that arm of his, if he has more than half a second to make a decision he is going to be dangerous...for every defense in this league.
 
jayseed2002 said:
I was on the way home yesterday and he brought up an interesting stat on David YUGO and Joey Harrington:
Games JH-58 DY-60

Games started JH-55 DY-58

ATT JH-1802 DY 1628,

COMP. JH-986 DY- 941

PCT. JH-54.7 DY-57.8

Yards JH-10,242 DY-10,624

Yards per Attempt JH-5.68 DY-6.53

LG. JH-86 DY-81

TD'S JH-60 DY-48

INT. JH-62 DY-53

20+ pass plays JH-118 DY-118

40+ pass plays JH-19 DY-18

Passer Rating JH-68.1 DY-73.7

The numbers are scary!!!! They are VERY SIMILAR! One not only loses his job but gets cut..... the other gets a multi-year, multi-million dollar extension. Detroit also won MORE games with Harrington than we won with David Yugo.... please draft VY! :redtowel:
Click to expand...

This is really getting sad...sad.
 
el toro said:
Man, he's going to have a real line and a ton of real options this season. With that arm of his, if he has more than half a second to make a decision he is going to be dangerous...for every defense in this league.
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I'm not sure the "Real Line" thing is not all that certain at this point. The left side and center are looking good, but the right side is still a big question mark IMO. Still have the draft ( an OT in the 2nd and a Gaurd in the 3rd would be good) and possibly a reasonably solid gaurd after the June 1 cuts. We are very thin and shaky at RT gaurd. Wiegert's good, but has proven to be less than relable due to injury and the jury is out on whether Wade or Wand can play RT in the system. One injury to just about ANY of our O-line guys and we will be in seriouse trouble.
 
jayseed2002 said:
David Yugo.... please draft VY! :redtowel:
Click to expand...


Look, obviously you want us to draft VY. Unfortunately for you, I believe that it will not happen.
We all get your agenda... VY VY VY...

also,

The David Carr as an actual automobile metaphors were old stale and played out long, LONG before you came here to troll for VY.
I'd suggest that you just stop trolloing around here, but I know your type, and I'm pretty sure that you enjoy the attention.
Do yourself a favor and stop with the silly Yugo metaphor... even if you had a valid point (you don't) and even if you did not have an agenda (you do), you weaken your argument with the silly and childish presentation of your idea.
 
mike230765 said:
Can we wait and see how the new scheme and new players help David before we continue to blame all of our problems on him? I still don't see how people can blame hime if he doesn't have a line
Click to expand...

I agree. I think the new coaching staff and scheme is going to do wonders for Carr and the O line.
 
i think the main difference between the two is carr actually has the toughness to carry on and become a productive qb like he was two years ago...people keep forgetting that carr threw 3600+yds in 04...granted his TD numbers weren't what you would expect of a 3600+yds season but look at who he had to throw the ball too...a rookie wr...dropford...and gaffney who was underacheiving like a mofo that year
 
TexanSam said:
Well, David Carr did need this and that. Carr hasn't had an offensive line at all in his career. Carr has been sacked 208 times. Harrington was sacked 77 times. You could put God behind center, and he won't be able to work wonders with the protection we had. You're making it sound like it was all Carr's fault. It wasn't. We had AJ as our reciever and no one else. We had no NFL quality tight end. And once again, our O-line. We started Victor Riley for half our games last season. It doesn't get much worse than that. Yes Carr had a terrible season, but to blame it all on him is being stupid and ignorant. And either way, we've signed him to a contract and there's a very, very, very small chance Vince Young will be drafted. Sorry.
Click to expand...
Hey! Leave me out of this. Last time I got involved, look what happened to me. Signed, God
 
Frills said:
There's a reason Pendry doesn't have a job anywhere right now, and a reason Capers didn't get a HC job with all the openings as well.
Click to expand...

Capers could not even get a coordinators job, though several other fired HC did (Hasselett-Tice-Mularkey-Sherman/Asst HC,etc.)
 
2006 season looks to be shaping up for David Carr being expected to win some games and start at least a 3 game winning streak.

A new coach and the personnel moves mean no more excuses.

Which makes me wonder, if Kubiak can draft good running backs in later rounds (the Denver philosophy) and he is relatively comfortable with all other positions, does he take VY as insurance for a quarterback since we are sitting at #1 in the draft?

That's in interesting scenario and would put more pressure on Carr.
 
tsip said:
Capers could not even get a coordinators job, though several other fired HC did (Hasselett-Tice-Mularkey-Sherman/Asst HC,etc.)
Click to expand...


Didn't Coach Capers go to the Dolphins as their new DC?
 
Porky said:
Carr is easily the better of the two. Not saying he has been great, but clearly he has better physical ability. I still wonder about the mental part of the game for him, but it's very obvious to me that Kubes is surronding him with enough weapons to take any excuses away from him. If he is still miserable, then we will replace him. Not this year, and not with Vince. And of course, the best scenerio is that he steps up and at least gives us decent Quaterbacking.
Click to expand...

I've been an advocate for taking 'all' Carr's excuses away so we can see if he's the answer for us at QB. Like many others, I'd love it for Carr to be an ALL-PRO! However, on the other hand, if Carr still fails with all the 'new' things being done for him, the Carr 'lovers' need to accept that and not start making more excuses. From day one IMO we made 2 big mistakes with David--first, he had no competition/no one to learn the 'ropes' from and,second, he was surrounded by excuses instead of expectations.

Please let the blame game be over with-give Carr what he needs-and lets see the results on the field!!
 
Yes, Dom is the DC of the Dolphins, and look for their D to rock on. He was an excellent DC but he got in over his head as a HC. He also brought his buddies (Pendry) along and really paid for it.
 
jayseed2002 said:
Let's see how established Detroit was... in 2001 they were 2-14, the Texans were NON-Existent....
2002 Houston goes 4-12..... the "established NFL team" goes 3-13

2003 Both teams go 5-11

2004 Houston goes 7-9..... Detroit with all its talent goes 6-10

2005 Houston goes 2-14..... JH wins 150% more games than David Yugo ( 5 wins ) and he gets cut!

This must be the Board of The David Yugo family.... CALL A DUCK A DUCK!!!!! 4 years....that was his "learning" time..... now he gets a new system..... guess he gets to draw ANOTHER 4 years worth of paychecks before anybody will hold him accountable. :brickwall
Click to expand...


Man, look at the success Brooks has had in N.O., compared to Carr, and look what they did to him.

Joey has more INTs than David Carr, so does Bret Favre, Steve McNair, and a slew of other QBs......... does that make Carr better than all of them, or is he just more likely to take a sack??

The only stat we have, to judge an Oline, is sacks allowed. Any 5 guys sitting in front of Carr is at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the league. 5 years running, there hasn't been a large turnaround on our OLine. Through two different coaches. You can't say we don't have talent, especially when one of our draft picks get signed in the first week of FA to start for another team. Another draft pick gets signed as a WR.

Then you look at all the WRs Detroit has...... very rarely on the field at the same time. It's not like he had three #1 picks to throw the ball to....... at the same time, it never happened.

I don't think Harrington got a raw deal though. I'm glad he is getting out of Detroit. I don't think the cowboy fans are going to think too highly of him, but I'm confident he will proove them wrong.

Carr too. I think it is detrimental to his career to stay in Houston 2 more years. He needs to make a clean break, and start new while he still can. 7 years of what we've given him will ruin him IMHO.

I can't explain it. But I think he can turn it around for another team, but can't turn it around on the same team.
 
Your post = YP

Times that a post like YP has been posted: 5,000,000,001
Worth of YP: $0
Validity of YP: 0
Chance that YP is by a UT homer: 99.99999%
Chance that YP is by someone who cares about the Texans: 0.00001%
Chance that this is the last worthless post on the subject: 0%

The numbers are SCARY! Dont ever post here again!
 
I love how y'all say Harrington went to an established team "loaded with talent." Charles Rogers has never been on the field an entire season, Roy Williams has missed a lot of time in his two years, Mike Williams was playing last year having not played football at all for a year. It would have helped Harrington if that "talent" could acually play.

I've said it before: the only difference between Carr and Harrington is Harrington's coaches were never shy to bench him.
 
michaelm said:
I'd suggest that you just stop trolloing around here
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jayseed2002 said:
Very eloquently said...........:sarcasm:
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Oh my goodness, my finger hit the o and the i while trying to type a word.
I give... you're right about everything...:sarcasm:


p.s. $100.00 says you were very careful to spell check the word 'eloquently' before you posted... lol
 
i've gone and collected everyone's :twocents: on this debate and i've been able to pay down the national debt. Thanks everyone for helping america :superman: .
 
Fiddy said:
I love how y'all say Harrington went to an established team "loaded with talent." Charles Rogers has never been on the field an entire season, Roy Williams has missed a lot of time in his two years, Mike Williams was playing last year having not played football at all for a year. It would have helped Harrington if that "talent" could acually play.

I've said it before: the only difference between Carr and Harrington is Harrington's coaches were never shy to bench him.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you have said it before and once again you are ignoring tons of other advantages. Let's see how about an offensive minded head coach running a WCO, a 1st round RB, a total of 7 1st round draft picks playing on O including 2 playing on the OL such as the LT vs. 2 (Carr and AJ) with Carr playing behind horrible coaching. One of the coaching mysteries of the world is going to be why a defensive minded coach meddled horribly with his OC but let his DC pansy them both out of a job. Acting as if AJ equals all the advantages Harrington had even if the WR's haven't panned out (despite still playing more games total than AJ has) is specious.
 
infantrycak said:
Acting as if AJ equals all the advantages Harrington had even if the WR's haven't panned out (despite still playing more games total than AJ has) is specious.
Click to expand...

Speaking of specious . . . another thread full of Carr excuses. Why don't you guys just face the music? Kubiak MAY be able to turn Carr into a journeyman-quality QB. If he is, call yourself lucky.

Look for a QB in '07.
 
Nighthawk said:
Speaking of specious . . . another thread full of Carr excuses. Why don't you guys just face the music? Kubiak MAY be able to turn Carr into a journeyman-quality QB. If he is, call yourself lucky.

Look for a QB in '07.
Click to expand...

Oh look, another off-topic, redundant Carr bashing thread.
 
infantrycak said:
Yeah, you have said it before and once again you are ignoring tons of other advantages. Let's see how about an offensive minded head coach running a WCO, a 1st round RB, a total of 7 1st round draft picks playing on O including 2 playing on the OL such as the LT vs. 2 (Carr and AJ) with Carr playing behind horrible coaching. One of the coaching mysteries of the world is going to be why a defensive minded coach meddled horribly with his OC but let his DC pansy them both out of a job. Acting as if AJ equals all the advantages Harrington had even if the WR's haven't panned out (despite still playing more games total than AJ has) is specious.
Click to expand...

Fine, let's say harrington had all the advantages........... What happened to Batch?? What happened to Garcia?? WHat happened to any QB that tried to play their?? Has there ever been a succesful QB in Detroit??

No one is saying David had it better than Joey............ but that Joey had it as bad........... different situations, but neither were good.
 
Typically, a QB gets a majority of the blame when the team loses & a majority of the praise if they win.

David Carr is at least partially responsible for his play his first four seasons, so he should be open to some criticism. Why does this surprise some of you?

I mean, If Carr gets 0% of the blame right now for losing, he should get 0% of the credit when the team plays well right? I just want to keep things consistent.

What happens if Carr underperforms next year? Will you guys at least think of new excuses to throw around? It's the fault of the O-line, coaches, (enter name of 2007 scapegoat here).

Also, does any other player get the benefit of the excuse gravy train? How come nobody made excuses for Matt Stevens or Phillip Buchanon? They couldn't help the fact that we had no pass rush. How could anyone expect them to cover a WR for more than 6 or 7 seconds? It's all the D-line & coaches fault. So, they shouldn't be held responsible either.
 
I personally just think that people should think logically...instead of following some set of illogical guidelines about who you should be blaming when the team does well..or praising when they do poorly.

That way.. we are having intelligent conversations instead of ignoring facts so that we can spread around insults and point fingers.
 
infantrycak said:
Yeah, you have said it before and once again you are ignoring tons of other advantages. Let's see how about an offensive minded head coach running a WCO, a 1st round RB, a total of 7 1st round draft picks playing on O including 2 playing on the OL such as the LT vs. 2 (Carr and AJ) with Carr playing behind horrible coaching. One of the coaching mysteries of the world is going to be why a defensive minded coach meddled horribly with his OC but let his DC pansy them both out of a job. Acting as if AJ equals all the advantages Harrington had even if the WR's haven't panned out (despite still playing more games total than AJ has) is specious.
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Davis has been just have, if not more, productive than Jones so yes, Harrington had a 1st round back, Carr had the more productive back.

I don't understand this reasoning that because the WRs played more total games then AJ, it is an advantage. AJ and Gaffney (109) played in more games than Rogers, M.Williams and R.Williams (56) so was Gaff more of an advantage? He defintely was more productive then both M.Williams and Rogers.

So minus himself, the WRs who have been useless with two being outperformed by a WR that barely saw a read goes his way and a first round RB that was outperformed by a 4th round running back, Harrington had a first round LT. Woo-hoo.

And dont forget that Harrington was not the only one to play the quarterback position horribly, no one who stepped in when he was benched did either.

So yes, Harrington had a line (he also probably had more pocket presence than Carr has, but that's another subject) but if all you needed was a line to win in the NFL I would figure that the top picks in every NFL draft would be offensive lineman. Harrington had nothing to work with on the field, the trainers room held all the talent.
 
Fiddy said:
So yes, Harrington had a line (he also probably had more pocket presence than Carr has, but that's another subject) .
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There you go again O... Bush is coming to houston, get over it partner.. see ya tonight
 
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