amazingandre
Rookie
BOBO and I are in this heated debate. WHo is better Capers (any of his 4 years) or Gary Kubiak in his 1st year, as head coach????????
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Kubiak Vs. Capers
- Thread starter amazingandre
- Start date
Exascor
Veteran
Depends on what the criteria are. Some people think wins are everything and a winning team can't have problems. I think you have to look at the entire picture when evaluating a coach. Are the players motivated? Are they playing hard? Did the coaching have a lot of influence on the wins (ie good play calling, basic team strategies...)? Did they play well and lose or did they play bad and lose? Lots of things to compare.
Capers has years of experience as a HC and had one OK season in Houston. 7-9. It wasn't a good season because the team seemed to lose it in the second half of the season. The first 2 seasons were about what was expected. Poor results from a team with little talent.
Kubiak has no experience as a HC but I believe in his systems more than Capers apparent play-not-to-lose gameplan.
That said...If Kubiak was hired in 2002, I don't see much changing in the first 3 years in the win column. I would have expected the team to be a little more competetive in the losses though. Year 4 could have been bad even with Kubiak but I doubt it. At worst either coach should have been able to repeat the previous year's performance of 7-9.
To answer the original question: I'm going with Capers. I don't think Kubiak will reach 7-9 this season but do feel the team will be in more games than games where they are just plain blown out.
Capers has years of experience as a HC and had one OK season in Houston. 7-9. It wasn't a good season because the team seemed to lose it in the second half of the season. The first 2 seasons were about what was expected. Poor results from a team with little talent.
Kubiak has no experience as a HC but I believe in his systems more than Capers apparent play-not-to-lose gameplan.
That said...If Kubiak was hired in 2002, I don't see much changing in the first 3 years in the win column. I would have expected the team to be a little more competetive in the losses though. Year 4 could have been bad even with Kubiak but I doubt it. At worst either coach should have been able to repeat the previous year's performance of 7-9.
To answer the original question: I'm going with Capers. I don't think Kubiak will reach 7-9 this season but do feel the team will be in more games than games where they are just plain blown out.
amazingandre
Rookie
don't agree but i do like how you evaluated both and came to jogic, but bobo wow he makes me angry:brickwall anyway ya i know but you said they both should i least repeat the season of 7-9 right? well i htink they will do better because they have the same weapons and more now. i think that Kubiak is doing one thing superb he has the team so hyped it's unreal.... the fans are more excited than recent years. anyway i think that kubiak can take the talent we have and mould (lol) this team into a contender this year, i say w go wild card and possibly win, lets go TEXANS
Hey.... I'm siding with Bobo on this one.
It would be nice, if Capers would be a little more agressive, and play to win the game on both sides of the ball. That said, there's a fine line, between being aggressive, and being stupid. Why throw the ball, when all we have to do, is run out the clock??
Why Blitz, instead of keeping the ball in front of you, when it's 3rd and 34, and you've got the lead??
We have no clue where Gary is going to fall in regards to that line. & while we'd appreciate an aggressive offense, a complex offense, we don't know that Gary will deliver.....
How much worse can it get?? we may very well find out......
What if Dom did everything he could, to get this team over .500?? But the one thing he wanted to do...... replace David.... was something he couldn't do?? If David is still starting at the end of '06, then we can be assured, that was not the case. If Sage makes more than one start........
In all honesty... what did we expect Capers to do?? He started with nothing. We won some games in '02.... we won some in '03.... we won some in '04... We didn't make the playofs like Jacksonville/Carolina did. But those were different circumstances. different players......
The team went backwards, second half of '04, & in '05. why?? the play book has been scaled back since '02. why?? why have we never pulled our QB to protect him?? If my job is on the line, and I know we have to win games..... & I see my team moving the ball, scoring TDs..... why wouldn't I let them go?? It's not like they were losing their lead before I jumped in... & If I made that decision, to get in the way, and slow the offense down, why would I do it again, the next week..... and the week after, and the week after?? Don't forget, it's my job on the line.
Something doesn't sound right to me..... something else is/was going on, and we won't have a clue, till next season plays itself out.
It would be nice, if Capers would be a little more agressive, and play to win the game on both sides of the ball. That said, there's a fine line, between being aggressive, and being stupid. Why throw the ball, when all we have to do, is run out the clock??
Why Blitz, instead of keeping the ball in front of you, when it's 3rd and 34, and you've got the lead??
We have no clue where Gary is going to fall in regards to that line. & while we'd appreciate an aggressive offense, a complex offense, we don't know that Gary will deliver.....
How much worse can it get?? we may very well find out......
What if Dom did everything he could, to get this team over .500?? But the one thing he wanted to do...... replace David.... was something he couldn't do?? If David is still starting at the end of '06, then we can be assured, that was not the case. If Sage makes more than one start........
In all honesty... what did we expect Capers to do?? He started with nothing. We won some games in '02.... we won some in '03.... we won some in '04... We didn't make the playofs like Jacksonville/Carolina did. But those were different circumstances. different players......
The team went backwards, second half of '04, & in '05. why?? the play book has been scaled back since '02. why?? why have we never pulled our QB to protect him?? If my job is on the line, and I know we have to win games..... & I see my team moving the ball, scoring TDs..... why wouldn't I let them go?? It's not like they were losing their lead before I jumped in... & If I made that decision, to get in the way, and slow the offense down, why would I do it again, the next week..... and the week after, and the week after?? Don't forget, it's my job on the line.
Something doesn't sound right to me..... something else is/was going on, and we won't have a clue, till next season plays itself out.
"why??"
Your questions all have one thing in common--all were decisions/choices made by Capers. Too, these decisions all contributed to one thing-- a losing team. You've identified many of the things that Capers could have done to put us on a winning track but did not. Instead, he made choices that gave the team no chance to win. Coaches. Players. Game plans. Defense/offensive schemes. When you 'add up' all the choices'decisions that Capers made, they translate into 2/14.
Capers was in charge. He was not a puppet. McNair did not hire Caper's to build the worse team in the NFL but, rather--from day one-- to be a top team among its peers.
Brick wall. You can climb it. you can go around it. You can dig under it. Heck, you can even blow it up. But not Capers, no way. Dom was determined he was going to move that brick wall. He failed to do so in Houston. He failed to do so in Carolina, and not learning from his mistakes in those 2 places is probally why he'll never be a HC in the NFL again.:brickwall
Capers had one goal in mind and that was for 'his' team to be in a position to win the game in the 4th qtr, and his teams met that goal many times. Winning was not a requirement Think about it. If your goal is to win in the 4th qtr, you've got to do 1 of 2 things. If your'e ahead, you got to keep the other team from scoring. If you're behind, you've got to score. This means you have to prepare your team to be able to do both, and the Texans were not. The Texans were only coached to get to 'point A' and not 'point B.' Effective game planning and making adjustments were not a part of Caper's 'resume.' Unfortunately, getting to 'point A' meant success in Caper's Philosophy.
For me, it would be a 'hoot' to watch Capers be a HC of a losing NFL team, not a 'new' expansion team. However, for the Caper's supporters, I believe he would face many of the same obstacles as he did in Houston/Carolina--new coaches/players/new offense/defense.,etc. And, of course, he would face these challenges the same way he has in the past....sorry, but every year begins anew for every team, regardless of age.
Kubiak is nothing like Capers. Winning, like Lombardi said, is everything. More than ever, the NFL is becoming a part of the 'what have you done for me lately' concept. Each season is a new one and that means what worked last year or the year before or even the last game, may not work today. Too, being a winning coach in the past doesn't translate into tenure when you have a losing season-- gone are the coaching 'eras' of people like Tom Landry. Then, good/experienced coaches were 'few and far between'--now, these coaches are everywhere. Dom Capers got something another coach may never get again in the NFL-- 4 yrs to build winning programs on TWO NFL teams.
IMO, the Texans 2006 season will evolve into an 'eye opening' realization that will translate into a 'fan fun ' season. And, finally, this time next year-as it should be-Dom Capers will be a faded memory..............
Your questions all have one thing in common--all were decisions/choices made by Capers. Too, these decisions all contributed to one thing-- a losing team. You've identified many of the things that Capers could have done to put us on a winning track but did not. Instead, he made choices that gave the team no chance to win. Coaches. Players. Game plans. Defense/offensive schemes. When you 'add up' all the choices'decisions that Capers made, they translate into 2/14.
Capers was in charge. He was not a puppet. McNair did not hire Caper's to build the worse team in the NFL but, rather--from day one-- to be a top team among its peers.
Brick wall. You can climb it. you can go around it. You can dig under it. Heck, you can even blow it up. But not Capers, no way. Dom was determined he was going to move that brick wall. He failed to do so in Houston. He failed to do so in Carolina, and not learning from his mistakes in those 2 places is probally why he'll never be a HC in the NFL again.:brickwall
Capers had one goal in mind and that was for 'his' team to be in a position to win the game in the 4th qtr, and his teams met that goal many times. Winning was not a requirement Think about it. If your goal is to win in the 4th qtr, you've got to do 1 of 2 things. If your'e ahead, you got to keep the other team from scoring. If you're behind, you've got to score. This means you have to prepare your team to be able to do both, and the Texans were not. The Texans were only coached to get to 'point A' and not 'point B.' Effective game planning and making adjustments were not a part of Caper's 'resume.' Unfortunately, getting to 'point A' meant success in Caper's Philosophy.
For me, it would be a 'hoot' to watch Capers be a HC of a losing NFL team, not a 'new' expansion team. However, for the Caper's supporters, I believe he would face many of the same obstacles as he did in Houston/Carolina--new coaches/players/new offense/defense.,etc. And, of course, he would face these challenges the same way he has in the past....sorry, but every year begins anew for every team, regardless of age.
Kubiak is nothing like Capers. Winning, like Lombardi said, is everything. More than ever, the NFL is becoming a part of the 'what have you done for me lately' concept. Each season is a new one and that means what worked last year or the year before or even the last game, may not work today. Too, being a winning coach in the past doesn't translate into tenure when you have a losing season-- gone are the coaching 'eras' of people like Tom Landry. Then, good/experienced coaches were 'few and far between'--now, these coaches are everywhere. Dom Capers got something another coach may never get again in the NFL-- 4 yrs to build winning programs on TWO NFL teams.
IMO, the Texans 2006 season will evolve into an 'eye opening' realization that will translate into a 'fan fun ' season. And, finally, this time next year-as it should be-Dom Capers will be a faded memory..............
tsip said:"why??"
Your questions all have one thing in common--all were decisions/choices made by Capers. Too, these decisions all contributed to one thing-- a losing team. You've identified many of the things that Capers could have done to put us on a winning track but did not. Instead, he made choices that gave the team no chance to win. Coaches. Players. Game plans. Defense/offensive schemes. When you 'add up' all the choices'decisions that Capers made, they translate into 2/14.
Capers was in charge. He was not a puppet. McNair did not hire Caper's to build the worse team in the NFL but, rather--from day one-- to be a top team among its peers.
Brick wall. You can climb it. you can go around it. You can dig under it. Heck, you can even blow it up. But not Capers, no way. Dom was determined he was going to move that brick wall. He failed to do so in Houston. He failed to do so in Carolina, and not learning from his mistakes in those 2 places is probally why he'll never be a HC in the NFL again.:brickwall
Capers had one goal in mind and that was for 'his' team to be in a position to win the game in the 4th qtr, and his teams met that goal many times. Winning was not a requirement Think about it. If your goal is to win in the 4th qtr, you've got to do 1 of 2 things. If your'e ahead, you got to keep the other team from scoring. If you're behind, you've got to score. This means you have to prepare your team to be able to do both, and the Texans were not. The Texans were only coached to get to 'point A' and not 'point B.' Effective game planning and making adjustments were not a part of Caper's 'resume.' Unfortunately, getting to 'point A' meant success in Caper's Philosophy.
For me, it would be a 'hoot' to watch Capers be a HC of a losing NFL team, not a 'new' expansion team. However, for the Caper's supporters, I believe he would face many of the same obstacles as he did in Houston/Carolina--new coaches/players/new offense/defense.,etc. And, of course, he would face these challenges the same way he has in the past....sorry, but every year begins anew for every team, regardless of age.
Kubiak is nothing like Capers. Winning, like Lombardi said, is everything. More than ever, the NFL is becoming a part of the 'what have you done for me lately' concept. Each season is a new one and that means what worked last year or the year before or even the last game, may not work today. Too, being a winning coach in the past doesn't translate into tenure when you have a losing season-- gone are the coaching 'eras' of people like Tom Landry. Then, good/experienced coaches were 'few and far between'--now, these coaches are everywhere. Dom Capers got something another coach may never get again in the NFL-- 4 yrs to build winning programs on TWO NFL teams.
IMO, the Texans 2006 season will evolve into an 'eye opening' realization that will translate into a 'fan fun ' season. And, finally, this time next year-as it should be-Dom Capers will be a faded memory..............
Umm, when you add up all the decisions that Capers made, they also included a team that improved every year except the last and a team that hit 7-9 in just their third year of existence. It seems that your post indicates that you have a very selective memory indeed. As far as a "fan fun" season this year, I don't think so -- IMO. In fact, I think you'll find that aura of excitement and anticipation that characterized Capers tenure strangely missing this year. In fact, I know it will -- at least for me.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
So may ways to qualify my answer, but to go with one it would be excitement. The fan in me desperately needs to be excited due to the last four seasons being anything but. I really do feel that I will be out of my seat this year due to cheers more so than jeers. I am a die hard, but even diehards need to be charged.
Kaiser Toro said:
I think anybody who has actually been to the games in the past four years will see this statement as just another case of either revisionist history or a very, very failing memory. You can legitimately say that year four was not all that exciting -- though the Rams game was a great one, even though the Texans lost. But for those who were not there from 2002-4, let me clearly and succinctly inform you that Reliant Stadium was indeed rocking. And not just selectively. It was going crazy every ... single ... game. After all, the opposition doesn't get socked with those delay of game penalties if your fans aren't going crazy. And if Kaiser Toro was even in Reliant Stadium during the first three years, he must have been spending all of his time in the parking lot eating barbecue. Unfortunately, I do not see that same kind of intensity this year. I don't see Kubiak really bringing anything substantial to the table except a lot of years as an assistant -- some which have been good, others not so good. I think most fans will be sitting on their hands, waiting for something to happen.
powerfuldragon
Enchilada Aficionado.
i think this year it could go either way. eventually, however, kubiak will emerge as the better coach.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Bobo said:
My whereabouts are definetely known during home games and it is in section 124. If Capers ball the last four years excited you then I have the Days of Our Lives: Let's Get Physical DVD box set for you at $99 in nine easy installments.
I will give you that the defense has been really the only side of the ball that brought us out of our seats.
I just do not understand why you are so spiteful regarding Kubiak. I am the first to critique someone as long as they have a record in their role as a Texan. But what gives you the goose bumps, or lack there of, from Kubiak not putting together a better product than Capers? Please give me something tangible.
Kaiser Toro said:
Umm, you just gave "something tangible" and you didn't even know it. And I quote: "I am the first to critique someone as long as they have a record in their role as a Texan." Fact is, Kubiak has NO RECORD AT ALL as a head coach anywhere -- maybe not even Pop Warner! And this is the guy they pick to replace a man who led the team to the cusp of a .500 record in just three years with nothing but NFL rejects and raw rookies to work with? Nuff said.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Bobo said:
Nuff saying nothing about nothing. The subject was excitement. The tangible request has to do with your spite.
Coach C.
Veteran
Bottomline Kubiak comes from a nice pedigree. He may be one of those guys like Capers and Mularkey and Saunders who are better assistant coaches than head coaches, but from what I know of the man he should have the better results. Hell he definately has a better team than Dom ever had.
Kaiser Toro said:
When somebody has no experience and a spotty record, that has nothing to do with spite but has everything to do with questioning somebody's qualifications. If you've ever been to a job interview, you should realize that. Just because somebody doesn't hire somebody for a job due to lack of qualifications does not mean they are being spiteful.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Bobo said:
Yeah I know that side of the debate, but why do you dislike him? Is it the hype?
Coach C. said:
A.) His "pedigree" has been spotty. Some success with Elway but spotty achievement after Elway left the building. B.) Capers was a fine head coach and to deny his accomplishments in his first three years is revisionist, disingenuous and unfair. C.) Seeing that he has absolutely no record as a head coach anywhere, I question your "knowledge of the man" in this capacity and your declaration of better results. D.) Seeing that most of the good players on his team are from the Capers era, I have to wonder why you say he has a better team than Dom ever had.
Kaiser Toro said:
I think he is unqualified for the position and that he is several steps back from the person who should still be there. To think that I "personally" don't like him is pretty ridiculous since I wouldn't know him if I walked into him on the street. As far as the "hype" goes -- what hype?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Bobo said:
Easy Cochise. Thank you for the first sentence. I could care less if you know him or not and recognize the sarcasm regarding hype. Looks like a win/win.
texan279
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
Mario Williams, Eric Winston, Anthony Weaver, Kevin Walter, Charles Spencer, Ephraim Salaam, Wali Rainer, Eric Moulds, Mike Flanagan, Jameel Cook, Sam Cowart, N.D. Kalu, Jeb Putzier, all brought in during the Kubiak era,by far the best off season we have ever had and the most talent we have added in one offseason.
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
No record > 2-14 record
Kubiak has only been here for one offseason. I would only hope that the Capers era had more good players. Although the main "good" players that come to mind are...AJ, DD, D-Rob, Pitts, Mathis...ummm...AG was pretty good for awhile. Sharper had his moments. Both of those guys are gone though. Faggins was a pretty good value pick. Everyone else has something to prove or has proven to be crap or gone from the team due to FA/Age..
Kubiak has only been here for one offseason. I would only hope that the Capers era had more good players. Although the main "good" players that come to mind are...AJ, DD, D-Rob, Pitts, Mathis...ummm...AG was pretty good for awhile. Sharper had his moments. Both of those guys are gone though. Faggins was a pretty good value pick. Everyone else has something to prove or has proven to be crap or gone from the team due to FA/Age..
texan279 said:
That is the mantra, but I would say that this is somewhat mediocre. Williams was a first rounder, so was AJ who was drafted by Capers. Winston was a third rounder. Davis was a fourth rounder, again, grabbed by Capers. The rest of these guys are highly questionable. It's not like they went out and grabbed a guy with the abilities of Muhsin Muhammad, Tony Gonzalez, Jonathan Ogden or Ray Lewis. After all, Cowart and Kalu may not even start, Weaver can't rush the QB effectively, Moulds is in his declining years and Flanagan is no spring chicken either, Cook can hardly be seen as any better than his predecessor, Putzier was not even necessary due to the need to keep the TE in to protect the QB until the situation gets straightened out, and Walter has a grand total of 30 catches in three years. Now, is that "by far the best off season" the Texans have had? If so, then the other offseasons haven't been much to write home about either. From what I see, these changes really weren't anything of much consequence and were simply transactions made so Kubiak could put his little stamp on his team and call it his own -- at least in some form or another since the core of the team still comes from the previous regime.
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
The most recent record trumps the record before it. He might have been 7-9 at one point but as far as most recent samples, 2-14 carries more weight. We aren't talking about other coaches either or the hindsight associated with them. This is Dom Capers and the little team that couldn't.
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
I don't see any trap. Under Capers: 4-12, 5-11, 7-9....2-14. And not just a bad luck 2-14, an extremely inept looking 2-14. Of Capers records with the team, 2-14 is the most relevant because it's the most recent.
ledzeppelin269 said:
When Paul Brown went 3-11, that was his most recent record. When Holmgren went 6-10, that was his most recent record. When Cowher went 6-10 as well, that was his most recent record. Of course, you can't simply say "other coaches' situations don't count." If you are going to pass judgment on a coach, you have to have some basis on making that judgment and the only way you can do it is by finding examples of what happened in previous and similar situations. Oops, here comes that trapper! he must have heard the trap snap! He sees his trapped prey and he ...
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:When Paul Brown went 3-11, that was his most recent record. When Holmgren went 6-10, that was his most recent record. When Cowher went 6-10 as well, that was his most recent record. Of course, you can't simply say "other coaches' situations don't count." If you are going to pass judgment on a coach, you have to have some basis on making that judgment and the only way you can do it is by finding examples of what happened in previous and similar situations. Oops, here comes that trapper! he must have heard the trap snap! He sees his trapped prey and he ...
Yes, I've seen this argument in your posts several times. I don't like comparing coaches to other coaches. You've picked 3 ideal turnarounds and conveniently ignored the multitude of mediocre to bad coaches that had crappy records and had crappy records the season after it. The judgement of Capers should have nothing to do with the careers of Brown, Cowher, Holmgren.
texan279
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
Moulds is 33 and had 816 yards receiving last season. Jimmy Smith just retired at the age of 37. I am not worried about Mould's or Flanagan's age. Putzier was #3 in receiving last season with the Broncos, he will be used in the passing game. Walter only had 30 catches in 3 seasons, but he was the Bengal's #4 WR behind Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and Chris Henry. Those 3 guys are no scrubs. Walter also had 33 special teams tackles. Walter also has good size and speed being 6'3'' 214 and running a 4.59 40. He also catches everything thrown near him. In 3 seasons of college ball, he had 211 receptions for 2838 yards and an average ypc of 13.5 and 20 TD's. And yes, I still think this is the best offseason we have ever had.
texan279 said:
Moulds production has declined every year. That's been discussed previously. He did have more yards than Gaffney, but not any more catches. And he only had three TDs. That's not all that much of an improvement. If Flanagan's injury in 2004 and his age doesn't bother you, then perhaps it should. Putzier won't catch many passes if Carr is on his back because they are sending him out on futile passing routes instead of keeping him in to block. That's also been discussed. As far as Walter goes, you're only giving more cause for concern. His production has been non-existent and you are expecting a fourth-stringer for the Bengals to actually contribute to the Texans. That's asking quite a lot. The only stats that matter are the ones he has made in the NFL. His college days are way, way beyond him. As far as this being "the best offseason the Texans have had," well, I certainly don't see much there. Lots of second-team guys and over-the-hill gang members does not a great offseason make. Seems to me that its very easy for Kubiak to meet what I would see as minimal expectations of yours while you were expecting the moon from Capers.
texan279
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
Gaff had 55 catches for 492 yards, 8.9 ypc and 2 TD's last season. Moulds had 81 catches for 816 yards, 10.1 ypc, and 4 Td's last season. Moulds production has not declined every year, only fluctuated, he has had 4 seasons with over 1000 yards receiving, 2 season over 900 yards, and 4 season with less than 900 yards, and they have all been mixed. Flanagan's injury is done and over with, he started 14 games last season and only had 2 penalties against him and only allowed 2 sacks. That is just plain improvement on our offensive line, I don't care if he is 33 or 133, he got the job done. As far as Putzier, you act as if he doesn't stay in to block Carr will get killed or something, there are 5 guys on the line and a FB and RB who block also. As far as Walter, he has only been out of college 3 seasons, and what kind of stats do you expect him to put up behind Chad Johnson, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, and Chris Henry? Last season Walter had 19 catches for 211 yards, 11.1 ypc, and 1 TD, all behind 2 great WR's and one good WR. Compare that to Derick Armstrong last season who had 9 catches for 115 yards and 0 TD's behind AJ, Gaff, and Bradford. I never expected the moon from Capers, but to go from 4-12 to 5-11 to 7-9 to 2-14 is pretty horrible IMO. By our 4th season we should at least have been up to 8-8, but we go from 7-9 to 2-14 instead.
texan279 said:
Moulds YPC and his TDs have steadily declined. You forgot to note that Moulds has just 10 TDs in the last three years as well. If Carr would have been able to get some passes off, then perhaps Gaffney would have caught more passes for more yards. After all, the guy who led the team in TDs was Corey Bradford -- with three. Some guy who has been in the NFL 11 years and had an injury that kept him out for almost the entire season in 2004 isn't all that reliable a pickup, let's be realistic. As for the TE, the Texans had a hard enough time blocking folks with the TE in last year. And at times the opposition was only rushing three or four guys. It will be even worse with one less guy there. As for Walter, bottom line: He's been in the league 3 years with hardly any production. He's been a fourth stringer for Cincy and you are expecting that kind of guy to contribute? If you didn't like Capers going from 7-9 to 2-14, then you certainly wouldn't have stood for a guy named Cowher who went from 13-3 to 6-10 in just two years, now, would you? After all, let's be fair. Now, no one is arguing that the fourth season wasn't a setback. But as I've said plenty of times before, other coaches have had the same kinds of setbacks in similar situations and righted the ship. Capers didn't get that opportunity -- and he should have.
ledzeppelin269 said:
If you don't compare coaches with other coaches, then how can you say that Kubiak is going to be better? After all, that is making a comparison, now, isn't it? Seems to me that if you are going to judge performance, the scale is set up by other coaches' achievements. It just seems to me that you "don't like comparing coaches" because you simply can't contradict the examples I have brought up.
ojthecat
Waterboy
Bobo said:
Bobo, Last year our Texans were one of the worst teams in the history of the NFL -- Period. They were a disgrace and Bob McNair had to do something.
Firing Capers was called for and I do not know of anyone other than you that thinks he should have been give one more year. The fans were not comming to the games what is the owner supposed to do?
ojthecat said:
The owner was supposed to do what the owner of the Steelers, Bengals and Seahawks did. The fans would come to the games again if Capers was still here and you'd be offering the same arguments I'm offering now if he did just that. Firing Capers was as much called for as the dismissal of Cowher when he went from 13-3 to 6-10 and when Paul Brown went from 8-6 to 3-11. Yep, I may be the only guy on this board who wanted Capers to stay on. But then again, it seems like I'm also one of the few who knew the facts about Paul Brown and the two SB coaches of this year and one of the few folks who believe that Capers first three years were good ones. Obviously, those who think Capers was "awful" simply aren't giving Capers his just due and have somehow come down with selective amnesia when it comes to his tenure here. Sometimes it's better to be right rather than wrong, no matter how many people are mistaken. And I will also remind you that only two guys out of the entire Hebrew nation voted to go into the Promised Land.
texan279
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
Moulds production has not steadily declined, only fluctuated. And Moulds has been Buffalo's leading WR for 8 straight seasons.
Rec Yards Y/R TD
20 279 13.9 2
29 294 10.1 0
67 1368 20.4 9
65 994 15.3 7
94 1326 14.1 5
67 904 13.5 5
100 1287 12.9 10
64 780 12.2 1
88 1043 11.9 5
81 816 10.1 4
As far as Flanagan, the guy came back last season and started 14 games and did a helluva job with no problems. Just because he was injured in 2004 means squat. With that mindset we should give up on DD since he was injured last season and hasn't recovered from a knee scope in 5 months. As far as the TE goes, last season we had one good blocking TE in Bruener. And there is a difference between going from 7-9 to 2-14 and going from 13-3 to 6-10. 6-10 is one game off from where we were at two seasons ago which was our best season to date. And Cowher went from 13-3 to 10-5-1 then to 6-10 then to 15-1 then 11-5. So Cowher's worst season in 13 seasons is one game worse than our best season in 4 seasons.
texan279 said:
Moulds YPC -- declining. Catches -- also declining. TDs -- declining and not a lot of them there to begin with. The only thing that's not declining: his age. Too bad for him. As far as Cowher goes, he took over a team that had been around for a long, long time and had an infrastructure that had been around for, well, years. Capers took over a team that, well, hadn't even existed before! Of course his record over four years was not going to be as good as Cowher's since Cowher had a much more stable situation and took over a team that had been to Super Bowls! Seems like you're really stretching the bounds of credulity in trying to respond to my Capers vs. other coaches analogy. Actually, there is a difference in going from 7-9 to 2-14 and going from 13-3 to 6-10. Going from 13-3 to 6-10 is much, much worse both in terms of total games and also due to the fact that you have taken an established winning team and turned it into a loser. And let us also remember than Capers never will get a chance to right the ship like Cowher did. Thus your statement about what he did after going 6-10 only buttresses my argument about what Capers might have been able to do if he stayed on. I don't think that you can say if a guy who has been in the league for 11 years gets hurt and misses almost an entire year that his injury "doesn't mean squat." Especially a serious knee injury. That's being kind of naive, doncha think? When you go through something like that, it's sure to affect you in the long run. And I don't think you got anywhere when you said the Texans had one good blocking TE. If anything, it only helps bolster my point in that the Texans need to keep a TE in to block even moreso since they had problems with pass protection even when the TE stayed in.
texan279
Hall of Fame
Bobo said:
Who has Moulds had throwing to him the last 3 season? Kelly Holcumb, J.P. Losman, and Drew Bledsoe. Not an all star lineup at QB. And the last 2 seasons Buffalo has had Lee Evans across the field from Moulds, so neither will put up 1200 yards and 12 TD's, in fact the last 2 season they have put up similar numbers yardage wise. And as far as Cowher goes, before he came along the last time the Steelers won 10 games or more was 1983. Cowher took over in 1992 and went 11-5 in his first season. As far as Flanagan, the guy came back last season and did his job with no problems. As far as keeping a TE in to block, fullbacks and running backs can also block.
"Seeing that most of the good players on his team are from the Capers era, I have to wonder why you say he has a better team than Dom ever had."
Aren't you kind of getting ahead of yourself on this one? Why don't you wait until the final roster is set before the first game. Of course, we can't replace the entire Caper's roster 'over night,' but I bet Kubiak gets better performace from the entire team, including Caper's selection of players.
I'm still waiting an answer from you on why Capers was 1 of only 2 HC that was not hired as a HC/Coor/ or position coach last year after leaving their previous job? And, for now, how many more years would it have taken for Capers to field a winning team if he'd stayed? Too, can you say anything about Capers without 'making excuses' for him?
Aren't you kind of getting ahead of yourself on this one? Why don't you wait until the final roster is set before the first game. Of course, we can't replace the entire Caper's roster 'over night,' but I bet Kubiak gets better performace from the entire team, including Caper's selection of players.
I'm still waiting an answer from you on why Capers was 1 of only 2 HC that was not hired as a HC/Coor/ or position coach last year after leaving their previous job? And, for now, how many more years would it have taken for Capers to field a winning team if he'd stayed? Too, can you say anything about Capers without 'making excuses' for him?
Bobo said:When Paul Brown went 3-11, that was his most recent record. When Holmgren went 6-10, that was his most recent record. When Cowher went 6-10 as well, that was his most recent record. Of course, you can't simply say "other coaches' situations don't count." If you are going to pass judgment on a coach, you have to have some basis on making that judgment and the only way you can do it is by finding examples of what happened in previous and similar situations. Oops, here comes that trapper! he must have heard the trap snap! He sees his trapped prey and he ...
You set the trap for yourself!! What do these other coaches have in common that Capers never came close to? Hint--answer is kinda important.
" waiting for something to happen."
Bobo, what Texans games were you watching? First, what did Capers make happen last year except losing? Fans supporting Capers? Did you see the empty seats last year? My seats are on the 50 yd line, about 20 rows up--maybe I just missed all the excitement and happy fans...nottttttttttttt
S
SESupergenius
Guest
Bobo, while I may agree with you that we jumped the gun a little and that Capers should have at least been here another year, your comparison of Capers 13-3 to 6-10 is off base considering that Cowher had already established himself as a a solid coach through the years, something that Capers hasn't. Cowher estabished a winner percentage of 67% his 1st 4 years after previous coach Chuck Noll notched only 47% his last 4 years. Capers' best year was a good one, but certainly not a trend nor in the neighborhood of Cowhers. If you saw the games last year you could just tell that the team had lost all confidence and wasn't playing with heart, something that is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. Once you lose that, just like he did with Carolina, it's extremely hard to get it back. Capers' biggest foley has always been his offense and it showed its head here in Texas.
SESupergenius said:
Your post starts out by saying Capers should have been given another year, and then you proceed to give most of the reasons he got fired. In light of what you said and the team in a 'state of flux,' what kind of record do you think the Texans would have had in year 5 if Capers was still the HC?
Exascor
Veteran
Hehe. Realist with a touch of pessimism would be more accurate. Has anyone called you sarcastic?TEXANRED said:Has anyone ever called you a pessimist? Know of anyone?
Back to the subject: The original question was "Who will have a better year?" I picked a 6-10 record for the Texans in 06. Capers went 7-9 once so the vote went to Capers.
Some posters make excuses for Capers using "expansion team" or "give it another year". I don't. If you can't see beyond the win-loss records (7-9 and 2-14) then how can Capers be properly evaluated? Capers had the team UNDERperforming. As has been stated, it started in mid 04 and carried through all of 05. Yes even with a weak roster they weren't performing well. His idea of staying in the game until the 4th quarter really was a horrible concept that backfired time and time again. Fangio ran a joke of a D. That's Capers field. Capers seemed incapable of adjusting his system. When things got bad it was always because the players weren't "executing".
I wanted Kubiak to be the initial coach of the Texans. I understood the logic behind bringing in someone that had experience with expansion teams so got completely behind Capers when he was hired. He was reported to have learned why the Panthers collapsed after the great season they had. He was detailed and methodical. Sounded great on paper. Capers failed to deliver a team that challenged the opponents. The team regressed and players like Sharper wanted some changes. He had 4 years. Enough was enough.
I believe in Kubiak. I'm not like Bobo that thinks Capers is better than Kubiak. I also think it is obnoxious to think that because Kubiak has no HC experience that he'll fail. Everyone has to get a chance sometime. But...I'm not a believer in a new coach, installing new systems in both offense and defense, turning over a large portion of a weak roster being successful in their first year. It could happen but I wouldn't bet on it.
Exascor
Veteran
You know, I blame the old regime completely for the sack problems. They addressed the problem without thinking of the consequences.Bobo said:
Problem: The QB gets pressured and sacked too much
Solution: Run more max-protection and run shorter routes
That was scary when I first heard it. Hmm...we have trouble protecting the QB so we're going to let the defense play a red zone defense every down? Short pass routes allow the safeties to play run support. Using a TE as just another o-linemen let's the defense attack the QB even more-not less. It was exposed in the preseason and they adjusted by changing the playbook and reducing it at the same time.
Scary.
:bananasplit: