Kubiak Supporters: Why should he stay?

[infantrycak]

My #1 problem with Kubiak regarding the way he has built this team is that we have no running game, and their really hasn't been much of an effort to build one.

I don't see how that statement is accurate in a couple different ways. Number 1 we had a running game last year. If we simply had that running game we would be in the playoffs this year. Number 2 he has done quite a bit to build the running game, it just failed this year. He brought in one of the top three OL coaches, drafted 4 OLmen on the first day (what was traditionally first day) plus grabbed another 1st day guy and fixed his medical issue that got him waived, traded for another OLmen plus drafted Slaton on the 1st day.

 

[mussop]

Excellent points, Scooter [must spread rep, yada, yada...]

Unfortunately, they all fall on deaf ears. See, some of the earlier posters were right; this thread should have ended long ago or never been started. The self-proclaim "Soapers" have their minds made up. No logical discussion brought to the board in good faith will sway them.
The man made excellent arguments and the next response was "...to toss a cup of bullshit juice all over your long post".

Real classy...

Y'all don't want discussion.
Y'all just want to vent.

...disappointing.
Go Texans

You stopped too soon. Read a few pages more page 15 is where his arguments were put to rest.

 

[HOU-TEX]

I admit that I was wrong about OD going down. I really didn't think there would be too much of a drop off. Plug and play. Well it's abundantly obvious I was woefully wrong.

Oh, there will be a huge amount of pressure. They thought expectations and pressure was tough this year? Just wait. If the Texans get off to a slow start next season with Kubiak at the helm, I will call for his head.

All the other things that are concerns I can attribute to youth and inexperience.Inconsistency - youth. Bad penalties - youth. Buckling under pressure - youth. All of those things get better with experience. That said, in order for it to happen players have to perform and coaches have to coach. Hell think about it, AJ is our oldest team leader at 28. He's never "been there done that."

Unfortunately, I thought the same thing for the most part. I knew OD was a beast at TE, but I thought Dreessen and Casey would step up in their own way and fill in admirably. I'm not the coach and don't watch miles of tape, but I thought for sure we'd see a lot more of Casey than we have. He's got the hands to easily fill in for OD, but lately it seems obvious that Kubiak wants everyone to be great at blocking (see Chris Brown).

 

[Texaninlild]

I don't see how that statement is accurate in a couple different ways. Number 1 we had a running game last year. Number 2 he has done quite a bit to build the running game, it just failed this year. He brought in one of the top three OL coaches, drafted 4 OLmen on the first day (what was traditionally first day) plus grabbed another 1st day guy and fixed his medical issue that got him waived, traded for another OLmen plus drafted Slaton on the 1st day.

I agree. The running game just went way south this year instead of Denver zone blocking north. If we shore up the middle 3 on our line that will make huge strides in the running game. If Steve remembers he is very fast and led the league in runs over 40 yds just a year ago, and he might also apply to the Tiki ball carrying school we could be ok. I wouldn't mind stealing a Michael Bush or Jonathan Stewart type in the draft or offseason as the #2.

I know we all want a stud safety from Santa this coming year. We can all feel we are on the cusp of being very good and that is why we are so pissed.

 

[TexansSeminole]

I don't see how that statement is accurate in a couple different ways. Number 1 we had a running game last year. Number 2 he has done quite a bit to build the running game, it just failed this year. He brought in one of the top three OL coaches, drafted 4 OLmen on the first day (what was traditionally first day) plus grabbed another 1st day guy and fixed his medical issue that got him waived, traded for another OLmen plus drafted Slaton on the 1st day.

We had a running game last year but it was entirely dependent on one person playing extremely well. That approach did not work this year.

I'll give Kubiak Alex Gibbs. That was the best move he made in trying to improve the running game.

Eric Winston was drafted to be a pass blocker. He wasn't exactly brought in to be a road grader. Caldwell was a nice addition IMO, but has not seen the field enough for me to really see where he is at, especially conditioning wise. Myers was brought in to pass block, there is no doubt about that.

Duane Brown was a good addition both in the passing game and the running game. Good move here.

Is there something I am leaving out?

Look at what we did to improve our RB situation. Wali "kids got a future" Lundy, Ahman "slip and fall" Green, Chris "bonehead" Brown, and now Arian Foster. Slaton is he only real contributor that Kubiak has brought in.

 

[Mr. White]

When OD went out, I wasn't expecting another TE to come in and fill his shoes.

I thought that the ball would get spread around the WR's more. Especially Walter. Seems like he used to be the guy to catch those passes down the middle.

 

[mussop]

What are you talking about. Most of us here who are on the other side of things have laid out point by point FACTS compared to made up future possibilities and yet they get skipped because people only want to see what they want to see.....something good in the future, despite the 4 years. I can post them again just so we can press "end" and you know they are out there.

1) Kubiak is 1-5 in the division. He has never sniffed having a winning division season.

2) Out of Kubiak's 29 wins, only 7 have been against winning teams.

3) Having players that like you doesn't make you a good coach. In fact most coaches that have been successful have been ones who can get the most out of a team while still maintaining the distance and fear they need to get respect..Lombardi, Knoll, Landry, Parcells, Bilechick, Jimmy Johnson, etc. Players don't need a BFF. This point also works against Kubiak. Players have loved the guy for 4 years yet they can't seem to win games for him and they keep making the same mistakes. How has liking him worked out?

4) Losing is losing. You are what your record is. I don't care if you lose by 7 or 30, it is still a loss. It is amazing that people support Kubes and point to more talent, a better offense and a better defense. Yet with all of that, they are at 6-7 after 13 games for the 3rd year straight. That is coaching. (just like I thought the Rams win was pathetic and uninspiring but in the end it was a "W" and 20 years from now you see "W"s and "Ls")

5)Injuries happen. It is why you drafted Casey and have Driessen. Look at the Colts when they played us:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/091201&sportCat=nfl

"With Bob Sanders and Marlin Jackson out for the season, and Dwight Freeney missing the contest with an injury, the Colts' defense started no one drafted higher than the third round. Big plays were made by Colts defensive starters Gary Brackett, Daniel Muir, Melvin Bullitt and Jacob Lacey, all of whom were undrafted free agents. Pierre Garçon, out of Division III Mount Union, caught a touchdown pass. Chad Simpson, undrafted out of Division I-AA Morgan State, scored a touchdown, breaking three tackles when Houston players tried to strip the ball. Robert Mathis, a low draft pick out of Division I-AA Alabama A&M, not only stripped Matt Schaub of the ball to set up the game-icing touchdown, he did so while being held by the Moo Cows' offensive line. I don't know what's in the water in Indiana, but it seems to turn unknowns into football players."

6) People accept mediocre. Their standard of success if deplorable. People hate the Cowboys, yet their standard is playoffs and SB. It is why Wade is on the hot seat. Most NFL teams have that same standard. Even the Jets with a rookie QB and new coach expect success because of their talent. Yet here people think 4 years of looking better and having .500 results is awesome. They act like Kubiak walks on water. Chan Gailey went to the playoffs as a coach. People here need to shoot higher. Bill Maas said he was on the Cheifs when they couldn't get over the hump. He said they were just like the Texans. They then got Marty in he said they learned that there was discipline to things they didn't even know about. That is this situation. Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami all turned it around. Changing coaches doesn't have to equal rebuilding again.

7) As for Scotters arguments...
instant offense - Yes, the offense is improved and the team is still at .500
improvement - Yes, everyone seems to agree that there is improvement yet the team is still at.500
building from the inside out -And where are the sacks?
potential - One of the dirtiest words in sports. Ask any coach.
developement - guys like Amobi and who?Our RBs who have taken a step back.
competitiveness - really?A team that can't win the big ones and still falls short in big games?
consistancy - So losing one week, winning the next and never puitting two good halves together is consistency?

All of the arguments but 1 in #7 above are talking points, not facts. The only one that is substantial and can be proven is the offense being better. The rest are talking points for next year and have been the same for 4 years. That is most of our points....you can add up all his arguments, even if you believe them..and yet they still end at the same road...500. That leads to one person...coach.

With all of this said, I won't comment anymore. I just wanted to show you that these arguments have been out there and they contradict alot of what I'm hearing in the other camp. But to each their own.

Nice job. Rep your way.

 

[DexmanC]

What are you talking about. Most of us here who are on the other side of things have laid out point by point FACTS compared to made up future possibilities and yet they get skipped because people only want to see what they want to see.....something good in the future, despite the 4 years. I can post them again just so we can press "end" and you know they are out there.

1) Kubiak is 1-5 in the division. He has never sniffed having a winning division season.

2) Out of Kubiak's 29 wins, only 7 have been against winning teams.

3) Having players that like you doesn't make you a good coach. In fact most coaches that have been successful have been ones who can get the most out of a team while still maintaining the distance and fear they need to get respect..Lombardi, Knoll, Landry, Parcells, Bilechick, Jimmy Johnson, etc. Players don't need a BFF. This point also works against Kubiak. Players have loved the guy for 4 years yet they can't seem to win games for him and they keep making the same mistakes. How has liking him worked out?

4) Losing is losing. You are what your record is. I don't care if you lose by 7 or 30, it is still a loss. It is amazing that people support Kubes and point to more talent, a better offense and a better defense. Yet with all of that, they are at 6-7 after 13 games for the 3rd year straight. That is coaching. (just like I thought the Rams win was pathetic and uninspiring but in the end it was a "W" and 20 years from now you see "W"s and "Ls")

5)Injuries happen. It is why you drafted Casey and have Driessen. Look at the Colts when they played us:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/091201&sportCat=nfl

"With Bob Sanders and Marlin Jackson out for the season, and Dwight Freeney missing the contest with an injury, the Colts' defense started no one drafted higher than the third round. Big plays were made by Colts defensive starters Gary Brackett, Daniel Muir, Melvin Bullitt and Jacob Lacey, all of whom were undrafted free agents. Pierre Garçon, out of Division III Mount Union, caught a touchdown pass. Chad Simpson, undrafted out of Division I-AA Morgan State, scored a touchdown, breaking three tackles when Houston players tried to strip the ball. Robert Mathis, a low draft pick out of Division I-AA Alabama A&M, not only stripped Matt Schaub of the ball to set up the game-icing touchdown, he did so while being held by the Moo Cows' offensive line. I don't know what's in the water in Indiana, but it seems to turn unknowns into football players."

6) People accept mediocre. Their standard of success if deplorable. People hate the Cowboys, yet their standard is playoffs and SB. It is why Wade is on the hot seat. Most NFL teams have that same standard. Even the Jets with a rookie QB and new coach expect success because of their talent. Yet here people think 4 years of looking better and having .500 results is awesome. They act like Kubiak walks on water. Chan Gailey went to the playoffs as a coach. People here need to shoot higher. Bill Maas said he was on the Cheifs when they couldn't get over the hump. He said they were just like the Texans. They then got Marty in he said they learned that there was discipline to things they didn't even know about. That is this situation. Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami all turned it around. Changing coaches doesn't have to equal rebuilding again.

7) As for Scotters arguments...
instant offense - Yes, the offense is improved and the team is still at .500
improvement - Yes, everyone seems to agree that there is improvement yet the team is still at.500
building from the inside out -And where are the sacks?
potential - One of the dirtiest words in sports. Ask any coach.
developement - guys like Amobi and who?Our RBs who have taken a step back.
competitiveness - really?A team that can't win the big ones and still falls short in big games?
consistancy - So losing one week, winning the next and never puitting two good halves together is consistency?

All of the arguments but 1 in #7 above are talking points, not facts. The only one that is substantial and can be proven is the offense being better. The rest are talking points for next year and have been the same for 4 years. That is most of our points....you can add up all his arguments, even if you believe them..and yet they still end at the same road...500. That leads to one person...coach.

With all of this said, I won't comment anymore. I just wanted to show you that these arguments have been out there and they contradict alot of what I'm hearing in the other camp. But to each their own.

I notice when people respond to our posts, they continually gloss over
points like the ones I've bolded. These points are VITAL to building a
WINNING franchise, not one that LOOKS GOOD WHILE LOSING!!!

The Texans are 6-1 vs. Teams that have a .500 or lower record. (Jets)
The Texans are 1-6 vs. Teams that have a winning record. (Bengals)

The Texans ARE consistent. They CONSISTENTLY BEAT BAD TEAMS.
They CONSISTENTLY LOSE TO GOOD TEAMS!

Those FACTS can't be argued, but DON'T IGNORE THEM EITHER!!

 

[Texan_Bill]

I notice when people respond to our posts, they continually gloss over
points like the ones I've bolded. These points are VITAL to building a
WINNING franchise, not one that LOOKS GOOD WHILE LOSING!!!

The Texans are 6-1 vs. Teams that have a .500 or lower record. (Jets)
The Texans are 1-6 vs. Teams that have a winning record. (Bengals)

The Texans ARE consistent. They CONSISTENTLY BEAT BAD TEAMS.
They CONSISTENTLY LOSE TO GOOD TEAMS!

Those FACTS can't be argued, but DON'T IGNORE THEM EITHER!!

Apparently you don't read. Kind of hard to with blinders on, huh??

 

[HoustonFrog]

Frog, you are very level headed and open minded. Surely you know that there has been good arguments in this thread for Kubiak remaining another season. However, if people are wearing blinders or already have their agenda set, of course they won't reasonably discuss the merits of one's argument.

Instead, what they'll do is


Oh yeah, "...to toss a cup of bullshit juice".


I can't argue the divisional losses. That's the most relevant argument for the naysayers. Really disappointing when I expected them to be 3-3 or maybe even squeek out a 4-2 record.

All I can do is look at things open mindedly. For example: what's the biggest thing wrong with this team: For me inconsistency. Then I think about what leads to inconsistency. Primarly things like youth and yes coaching to a degree. Mix in a a bad seed or two (ie Dunta and his pay me Rick stunt.)

I also look at other issues, i.e. Red Zone woes. What's the problem with scoring in the red zone this season? 3 things IMO. A) Our O-line B) no running game (although that kinda goes hand in hand with A) and lastly who is our best Red Zone threat. I would like us to go to AJ more often but really it was Owen Daniels for the first half of this season. He was on pace for 10 TD's. Originally I thought that there wouldn't be too big of a drop off, but I was wrong - see Dreessen's drop last weekend.

I don't care who you are, it's hard to be consistent when nearly 40% of your offensive starters from last year are on the IR.

Not sure why you brought up the Colts defense. They're in the bottom half of the league in total defense. They're defense helps them out sometimes, but that team is all about Peyton and the their offense..

I've seen some very good arguments from both sides. I just wanted to respond to Obi because he said no one was listening or pointing out anything worthwhile and that is amounted to complaining vs the people who want to keep him. So I laid out the main arguments

The Colts D is just an example of losing playmakers on one side of the ball....their defense is much better with Sanders..and still being able to patchwork a win. Is Sanders as importanrt to their D as OD is to our O...I think so. Yes Peyton is that team but their defense did enough once they settled in to beat the Texans. They were considered Top 10 until their injuries. You still have to stop teams .I just hate blaming a season or a group of losses on one guy like OD. Teams get hit with this stuff yearly. Shockey was big to the Giants and Boss came in and they won a SB. Stuff happens. As some have said, we have Dreissen, we drafted Casey, we have Walters(who was hurt earlier and who has been underused at times). I don't see the offensive woes because of OD as the thing that is haunting this team. I don't think OD makes 16-13 vs the Rams any better a win since they were passing at will to AJ. The issue becomes being ready to play and who is in charge of that in my book.

 

[Texan_Bill]

I've seen some very good arguments from both sides. I just wanted to respond to Obi because he said no one was listening or pointing out anything worthwhile and that is amounted to complaining vs the people who want to keep him.

The Colts D is just an example of losing playmakers on one side of the ball....their defense is much better with Sanders..and still being able to patchwork a win. Yes Peyton is that team but their defense did enough once they settled in to beat the Texans. I just hate blaming a season or a group of losses on one guy like OD. It's lame since teams get hit with this stuff yearly. Shockey was big to the Giants and Boss came in and they won a SB. Stuff happens.

I don't mind discussing or debating with you because you know how it's done. You also know I'm not one to blame refs or injuries and I'm not saying those 4 losses were just because OD was out. However, I do think there is a correlation there.

Problem with using Sanders as an example is that last season he only played in 6 games, this season two. He's effective when he plays, he just doesn't play that often anymore.

2004 - 4 games started
2005 - 14 gs
2006 - 4 gs
2007 - 15 gs
2008 - 6 gs
2009 - 2 gs

Out of 96 possible starts (excluding playoffs), he's only started 45 games.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I don't mind discussing or debating with you because you know how it's done. You also know I'm not one to blame refs or injuries and I'm not saying those 4 losses were just because OD was out. However, I do think there is a correlation there.

Problem with using Sanders as an example is that last season he only played in 6 games, this season two. He's effective when he plays, he just doesn't play that often anymore.

2004 - 4 games started
2005 - 14 gs
2006 - 4 gs
2007 - 15 gs
2008 - 6 gs
2009 - 2 gs

Out of 96 possible starts (excluding playoffs), he's only started 45 games.

I know what you are saying. Nice stats on Sanders. I thought he had only 2 years of problems, not that many. OD makes a difference. Just, IMO, not to a point where there is major reason to lose some games that were there for the taking. I know you weren't blaming all woes. I've just seen the argument. And I thought the Shockey comparison could be made.

As for another spin on coaching and OD. Here is another train of thought. So before the year the team decided to wait signing him to an extension. Many thought he was overrated and that this offense was made to plug guys in the same spots and they would succeed. Along those lines, they keep Dreissen and draft Casey. Many took that as a sign as OD would be leaving the next year. So he starts having a Pro Bowl year and goes down. The offense is still very good but not as good. Casey and Dreissen aren't interchangeable parts with OD. So where does the fault lie here?Not that an injury is anyones fault but 1) Was OD undervalued; 2) Were the Texans, despite having Casey and Dreissen, unprepared for such a situation, that it affected the offense THAT much. ; 3) Was Casey coached up right or is he just raw; 4) Why hasn't Walter picked up some of the slack...............................just things that also make me wonder about where Gary's head was in all of this. To me the offense still looks potent. However, teams adjust to them pretty quickly in a game and then it is like they have no other options besides AJ. I have a hard time believing that the middle of the field. flats and other areas OD roamed couldn't be exploited with one of thier other WRS...it is a strong position on the team.

 

[Texan_Bill]

I know what you are saying. Nice stats on Sanders. I thought he had only 2 years of problems, not that many. OD makes a difference. Just, IMO, not to a point where there is major reason to lose some games that were there for the taking. I know you weren't blaming all woes. I've just seen the argument. And I thought the Shockey comparison could be made.

As for another spin on coaching and OD. Here is another train of thought. So before the year the team decided to wait signing him to an extension. Many thought he was overrated and that this offense was made to plug guys in the same spots and they would succeed. Along those lines, they keep Dreissen and draft Casey. Many took that as a sign as OD would be leaving the next year. So he starts having a Pro Bowl year and goes down. The offense is still very good but not as good. Casey and Dreissen aren't interchangeable parts with OD. So where does the fault lie here?Not that an injury is anyones fault but 1) Was OD undervalued; 2) Were the Texans, despite having Casey and Dreissen, unprepared for such a situation, that is affected the offense THAT much. ; 3) Was Casey coached up right or is he just raw; 4) Why hasn't Walter picked up some of the slack...............................just things that also make me wonder about where Gary's head was in all of this. To me the offense still looks potent. However, teams adjust to them pretty quickly in a game and then it is like they have no other options besides AJ. I have a hard time believing that the middle of the field. flats and other areas OD roamed couldn't be exploited with one of thier other WRS...it is a strong position on the team.

I think the Texans had and have every intention in retaining OD, although that was interesting perspective or scenario. I think Dreessen is here simply because Bruener or another back-up tight end is not and Casey was drafted because he's an intriguing guy with potential at doing some different things. It's also nice to have a guy as a back-up in the long snap game. I just don't think they've really figured out what to do with the guy, yet. This is one area that I am critical of the coaching staff.

Personally, I would change his number into the 30's and see how effective he can be running the ball. Really, it can't be any worse.

 

[Second Honeymoon]

Kubiak sucks. That is all. Thank you and good night.

 

[thunderkyss]

As for another spin on coaching and OD. Here is another train of thought. So before the year the team decided to wait signing him to an extension.

I heard on the OD show one day, that they offered to make him a top three (paid) TE in the league, & OD turned it down. He was saying he regrets that.

 

[ObsiWan]

I've seen some very good arguments from both sides. I just wanted to respond to Obi because he said no one was listening or pointing out anything worthwhile and that is amounted to complaining vs the people who want to keep him. So I laid out the main arguments

The Colts D is just an example of losing playmakers on one side of the ball....their defense is much better with Sanders..and still being able to patchwork a win. Is Sanders as importanrt to their D as OD is to our O...I think so. Yes Peyton is that team but their defense did enough once they settled in to beat the Texans. They were considered Top 10 until their injuries. You still have to stop teams .I just hate blaming a season or a group of losses on one guy like OD. Teams get hit with this stuff yearly. Shockey was big to the Giants and Boss came in and they won a SB. Stuff happens. As some have said, we have Dreissen, we drafted Casey, we have Walters(who was hurt earlier and who has been underused at times). I don't see the offensive woes because of OD as the thing that is haunting this team. I don't think OD makes 16-13 vs the Rams any better a win since they were passing at will to AJ. The issue becomes being ready to play and who is in charge of that in my book.

And I repped you for your compelling arguments and solid points. Credit where credit is due.

 

[ObsiWan]

Oh hell naw.

Are you freaking kidding me? Logic? The people who want Kubiak replaced are talking logic and cold, hard FACTS. Those who want him to stay are talking emotion and hyperbole: "Oh, he'll get better." "Another coach couldn't do what he's done."

And, note that Scooter wrote the following:
"improvement - in every area but the one that matters (wins)."

Are you kidding me? This person writes this long-ass post and say there's been improvement in every area but the one that matters, winning? That is the ONLY thing that matters. If we can't win games, what's the point?

Yes, I tossed a cup of bullshit juice over his post, and I will do it again.

It took me three tries to get past that because I could just imagine your expression - okay, my expression (since I've never actually seen you) - if had I said that. No offense, but it just struck me funny.

Anyway, back to topic.
I have no answer for the "win or you haven't accomplished crap" folks. Life isn't binary like that for me. In my little corner of the universe, grades come A, B, C, D, or F, not just "Win or Get the 'Eff' out".
I don't expect that when I plant a few apple seeds to have bushels of apples the next year.
Some things just take time.

and it's not that we "can't win" we just can't win every time.

 

[ObsiWan]

I heard on the OD show one day, that they offered to make him a top three (paid) TE in the league, & OD turned it down. He was saying he regrets that.

Wow. I hadn't heard that. I thought the idiots (yeah, I think of them that way too sometimes) hadn't given him an offer at all.

 

[HoustonFrog]

And I repped you for your compelling arguments and solid points. Credit where credit is due.

Thanks. And so you know I wasn't trying to rip you, I just wanted to spell out some of the arguments and leave it at that so you knew that there were arguments to be made.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Wow. I hadn't heard that. I thought the idiots (yeah, I think of them that way too sometimes) hadn't given him an offer at all.

They offered OD, ryans, and Dunta long-term contracts this off-season assuming the reports are all true.

 

[houstonspartan]

It took me three tries to get past that because I could just imagine your expression - okay, my expression (since I've never actually seen you) - if had I said that. No offense, but it just struck me funny.

Anyway, back to topic.
I have no answer for the "win or you haven't accomplished crap" folks. Life isn't binary like that for me. In my little corner of the universe, grades come A, B, C, D, or F, not just "Win or Get the 'Eff' out".
I don't expect that when I plant a few apple seeds to have bushels of apples the next year.
Some things take just time.

and it's not that we "can't win" we just can't win every time.

LOL. I was at work when I read that other person's post, and my mouth was literally hanging open and I was squinting my eyes.

Anyway, sorry, man, but your argument STILL doesn't hold water. This is football. It's either win or lose. Yes, I am like you, and I like to look at the complexities of things. That's me. That's who I am as a person.

But sports doesn't work that way. Win or lose. Period.

Gary has had four years to grow a healthy apple tree, to use your analogy. It's quite possible he has planted the wrong seeds.

 

[ObsiWan]

I notice when people respond to our posts, they continually gloss over
points like the ones I've bolded. These points are VITAL to building a
WINNING franchise, not one that LOOKS GOOD WHILE LOSING!!!

The Texans are 6-1 vs. Teams that have a .500 or lower record. (Jets)
The Texans are 1-6 vs. Teams that have a winning record. (Bengals)

The Texans ARE consistent. They CONSISTENTLY BEAT BAD TEAMS.
They CONSISTENTLY LOSE TO GOOD TEAMS!

Those FACTS can't be argued, but DON'T IGNORE THEM EITHER!!

The Kubiak Supporters are missing ONE HUGE GLARING FLAW in their argument!

This regime has been PERFECTLY CONSISTENT in who they WIN against, AND
who they LOSE to!

Houston Texans 2009 Overall Record: 7-7

Houston Texans record against Teams at .500 or below: 6-1

Houston Texans record against teams with winning records: 1-6

How do you EXPLAIN THIS!!???

Simple: We AREN'T THAT GOOD.
I've said that before.

We are not yet Elite.
We can beat the teams that aren't as good as us and we can hang with - but not always beat - the teams that are considered Elite (more or less).
I keep trying to remind folks of our preseason discussions. Remember all the pieces we said we lacked to be truly "playoff ready":
- Myers replacement
- Brisiel upgrade
- Run-stuffing, stud DT
- Ball-hawking FS
- Stud pass rusher to bookend Mario
- Quality backup RB for Slaton
- Upgrade for Walter (although the need for this was greatly debated)
- Upgrade for Wilson (no one was convinced Barber was the answer) and Ferguson (ok, we found that)

And we identified those needs in PRESEASON... before the injury bug hit us. We were good but NOT "elite" before the injury bug.
We're worse now.
But even so, we're in every game.
Every game.

Now the question is:
Do we need someone else to make us Elite or can Smithiak do it?
The Soapers don't think they can. We aren't winning enough for them. They've seen enough. They want Change. (didn't I hear that tune last Oct/Nov? - sorry, almost slipped into politics )

Given the undeniable level of improvement I've seen under them, I think they will.

 

[houstonspartan]

Simple: We AREN'T THAT GOOD.
I've said that before.
...with all the injuries we are not that good.
We are not yet Elite.
We can beat the teams that aren't as good as us and we can hang with - but not beat - the teams that are considered Elite (more or less). I keep trying to remind folks of our preseason discussions... Remember all the pieces we said we lacked:
- Myers replacement
- Brisiel upgrade
- Run-stuffing, stud DT
- Ball-hawking FS
- Stud pass rusher to bookend Mario
- Quality backup RB for Slaton
- Upgrade for Walter (although the need for this was greatly debated)
- Upgrade for Wilson (no one was convinced Barber was the answer) and Ferguson (ok, we found that)

And we identified those needs in PRESEASON... before the injury bug hit us. We were good but "elite" before the injury bug. We're worse now.
But even so, we're in every game.
Every game.

Now the question is:
Do we need someone else to make us Elite or can Smithiak do it?
The Soapers don't think they can. We aren't winning enough for them. They've seen enough. They want Change. (didn't I hear that tune last Oct/Nov? - sorry, almost slipped into politics )

Given the undeniable level of improvement I've seen under them, I think they will.

I know what you want. You want to give Kubiak a lifetime contract so he has time to figure things out. Unfortunately, that's not how the NFL works these days. 25 years ago? Yes. Now? No.

The NFL has coaches that have been in their jobs for two years or less and are on the hot seat, yet we are being cruel because we want improvement after FOUR YEARS?

Go sell it someplace else.

 

[GlassHalfFull]

I know what you want. You want to give Kubiak a lifetime contract so he has time to figure things out. Unfortunately, that's not how the NFL works these days. 25 years ago? Yes. Now? No.

We have coaches that have been in their jobs for two years or less and are on the hot seat, yet we are being cruel because we want improvement after FOUR YEARS?

Go sell it someplace else.

Obsi put out a rational and unbiased post. Exactly what people have been asking for in this thread. Nowhere did I see him say anything about a lifetime contract.

He can sell me whatever he wants.

 

[houstonspartan]

Obsi put out a rational and unbiased post. Exactly what people have been asking for in this thread. Nowhere did I see him say anything about a lifetime contract.

He can sell me whatever he wants.

He's saying that we're being unreasonable by expecting more wins. Ok, so how many wins should we expect by now? How many years should we wait?

No, he didn't say that per se. I was being faceteous (sp?). But my question still stands: How many years should we give Kubiak?

I agree with some of the other points he's made about the improvents this team has made and how we're "in" every game. But, still, it all comes back to W's and L's.

That's how sports works. I didn't make the rules.

 

[ObsiWan]

I know what you want. You want to give Kubiak a lifetime contract so he has time to figure things out. Unfortunately, that's not how the NFL works these days. 25 years ago? Yes. Now? No.

The NFL has coaches that have been in their jobs for two years or less and are on the hot seat, yet we are being cruel because we want improvement after FOUR YEARS?

Go sell it someplace else.

Like I said, the Soapers have their minds made up. So I'm not trying to "sell" you guys anything. I'd have a better shot trying to "sell" Obama to Rush Limbaugh (damn, I did the politics slip again... my bad).
I just told you where my head was at on this subject.
It's okay to agree to disagree. Happens all the time.

 

[infantrycak]

But my question still stands: How many years should we give Kubiak?

I haven't seen anyone suggest anything other than one more year.

But, still, it all comes back to W's and L's.

Apparently not since now somehow Sparano is a better coach with the same record since their W for beating Buffalo counts for more than our W for beating Buffalo.

 

[Goldensilence]

Simple: We AREN'T THAT GOOD.
I've said that before.
...with all the injuries we are not that good.
We are not yet Elite.
We can beat the teams that aren't as good as us and we can hang with - but not beat - the teams that are considered Elite (more or less). I keep trying to remind folks of our preseason discussions... Remember all the pieces we said we lacked:
- Myers replacement
- Brisiel upgrade
- Run-stuffing, stud DT
- Ball-hawking FS
- Stud pass rusher to bookend Mario
- Quality backup RB for Slaton
- Upgrade for Walter (although the need for this was greatly debated)
- Upgrade for Wilson (no one was convinced Barber was the answer) and Ferguson (ok, we found that)

And we identified those needs in PRESEASON... before the injury bug hit us. We were good but "elite" before the injury bug. We're worse now.
But even so, we're in every game.
Every game.

Now the question is:
Do we need someone else to make us Elite or can Smithiak do it?
The Soapers don't think they can. We aren't winning enough for them. They've seen enough. They want Change. (didn't I hear that tune last Oct/Nov? - sorry, almost slipped into politics )

Given the undeniable level of improvement I've seen under them, I think they will.

I'm just curious. You say these needs were identified(just by fans nonetheless), but how many of them were approached in the pre-season.

We signed Shaun Cody, when we really should've gone after a bigger DT like a Grady Jackson. Cody hasn't been what we needed.

Myers replacement and Brisiel upgrade. Didn't really address it other then drafting Caldwell and then decided he wasn't ready. I'm just wondering barring the run at injuries on the interior if we would've even seen Caldwell this year.

Ball-hawking FS...well they came into the season with the idea Barber and Ferguson could handle SS and took another late round flyer on a FS in the 7th. There were some good candidates out there and the "old man" Sharper sure has helped solidify the Saints backend, and in the process should get some mention as defensive MVP. Once again wasn't address nearly a high priority as it should have been. Got lucky KC cut Pollard, who probably other then the play of Cushing, has played a big role in the defense turning into something respectable.

Antonio Smith was supposed to be that bookend rusher across from Mario. I think he's been effective and disruptive, but I'm not sure he's what I'd call a stud pass rusher. Got good overall game though. Then drafted Conor Barwin, who is a second year DE project. I personally am still not sold on him being much more then a Jason Babin clone. Just my opinion though.

Part of what could've been done with a quality backup at RB went away when we failed to address it in the draft. Two guys who I had my eye on fell into the second Shonn Greene and LeSean McCoy.

McCoy is getting a lot of snap with Westbrook out. As of now 606 yards with a 4.1 YPC and 4 Tds.

Greene has been getting limited carries because Thomas Jones is really bowling through people lately. However, he's made good with what little time he's gotten 383 yards, 4.8 YPC and 2 TDs.

Both proved they could tote the rock at their perspective schools and both were available in the second when we took Barwin. I don't Kubiak could help himself taking another player in the place of someone who could've been much more immediately productive.

I'm not sure about upgrading KW. To be honest I'm not exactly sure, other then OD taking looks away from him why his numbers have dropped this year. Honestly I would think he would've be a bigger target for the open spaces in the middle of the field like he has in the past. Perhaps he's been a bit of a forgotten guy in the offense. Honestly overall I really like his game and he's a good blocker on the edge. IMO upgrading his presence is going to be an interesting proposition. There's no one on the team behind him who is ready to step into a #2 role. JJ is explosive but inconsistent. I'm still not sold on DA being as good as some of his fanboys make him out to be. Davis will be gone along with his bloated contract. If we don't resign him we're looking at likely a higher draft pick investment or singing someone in FA that can replace his production.

The problem I keep running into Obsi is they had a great chance to really address some critical spots this off-season, but stuck with Kubiak's guys.

I feel like Rick Smith reminds me a lot of the job Kubiak has done, probably because their jobs are so intertwined. There is no doubt they each have done a good job of upgrading the talent on this squad as opposed to the job Capers and Casserly did. However, I'm left wondering if they both just can't get the roster and the team over the hump.

 

[Runner]

I haven't seen anyone suggest anything other than one more year.

I'll give you that, but it's been pretty thinly veiled that they also consider people who think this should have been Kubiak's last year unreasonable and closed-minded at best.

=================

Another year at 8-8 wouldn't change anything. It would still be just as "difficult" to find an above average coach, we could still "hope" Kubiak would get it in year six, we'd still have one more draft to fill more holes, and the kids would have one more year to become older.

If it truly is just one more year and they would say they've seen enough, then the line between the soapers and the sunshine club is nothing more than an arbitrary number.

Four years is unrealistic, but five years is "right". That seems baseless, and as closed-minded as the soapers are being portrayed.

I also don't believe five years of mediocrity would be enough for many. There will always be player screw-ups, injuries, and holes in the line up to excuse Kubes.

==========

Of course, Kubiak may finally get it, the kids may become men, and the team goes 11-5 next year. The recent history of the team doesn't really support that, but stranger things have happened. Hope springs eternal, if not constant improvement.

 

[Mr. White]

I haven't seen anyone suggest anything other than one more year.

Until next year comes and there'll be some other excuse.

Apparently not since now somehow Sparano is a better coach with the same record since their W for beating Buffalo counts for more than our W for beating Buffalo.

That W against Buffalo doesn't make for a better coach. Taking a team from 1-15 to the playoffs in one season makes for a better coach.

 

[ObsiWan]

I'm just curious. You say these needs were identified(just by fans nonetheless), but how many of them were approached in the pre-season.

We signed Shaun Cody, when we really should've gone after a bigger DT like a Grady Jackson. Cody hasn't been what we needed.

Myers replacement and Brisiel upgrade. Didn't really address it other then drafting Caldwell and then decided he wasn't ready. I'm just wondering barring the run at injuries on the interior if we would've even seen Caldwell this year.

Ball-hawking FS...well they came into the season with the idea Barber and Ferguson could handle SS and took another late round flyer on a FS in the 7th. There were some good candidates out there and the "old man" Sharper sure has helped solidify the Saints backend, and in the process should get some mention as defensive MVP. Once again wasn't address nearly a high priority as it should have been. Got lucky KC cut Pollard, who probably other then the play of Cushing, has played a big role in the defense turning into something respectable.

Antonio Smith was supposed to be that bookend rusher across from Mario. I think he's been effective and disruptive, but I'm not sure he's what I'd call a stud pass rusher. Got good overall game though. Then drafted Conor Barwin, who is a second year DE project. I personally am still not sold on him being much more then a Jason Babin clone. Just my opinion though.

Part of what could've been done with a quality backup at RB went away when we failed to address it in the draft. Two guys who I had my eye on fell into the second Shonn Greene and LeSean McCoy.

McCoy is getting a lot of snap with Westbrook out. As of now 606 yards with a 4.1 YPC and 4 Tds.

Greene has been getting limited carries because Thomas Jones is really bowling through people lately. However, he's made good with what little time he's gotten 383 yards, 4.8 YPC and 2 TDs.

Both proved they could tote the rock at their perspective schools and both were available in the second when we took Barwin. I don't Kubiak could help himself taking another player in the place of someone who could've been much more immediately productive.

I'm not sure about upgrading KW. To be honest I'm not exactly sure, other then OD taking looks away from him why his numbers have dropped this year. Honestly I would think he would've be a bigger target for the open spaces in the middle of the field like he has in the past. Perhaps he's been a bit of a forgotten guy in the offense. Honestly overall I really like his game and he's a good blocker on the edge. IMO upgrading his presence is going to be an interesting proposition. There's no one on the team behind him who is ready to step into a #2 role. JJ is explosive but inconsistent. I'm still not sold on DA being as good as some of his fanboys make him out to be. Davis will be gone along with his bloated contract. If we don't resign him we're looking at likely a higher draft pick investment or singing someone in FA that can replace his production.

The problem I keep running into Obsi is they had a great chance to really address some critical spots this off-season, but stuck with Kubiak's guys.

I feel like Rick Smith reminds me a lot of the job Kubiak has done, probably because their jobs are so intertwined. There is no doubt they each have done a good job of upgrading the talent on this squad as opposed to the job Capers and Casserly did. However, I'm left wondering if they both just can't get the roster and the team over the hump.

You're emphasizing the very things we were discussing during the draft and training camp. Basically we made only slight upgrades and other than Pollard and Cushing, there were no immediate "home runs".

That begs the question, was it McNair not wanting to be a Houston-based Daniel Snyder; i.e., not make mega F/A moves
or did Smithiak convince him we could get by with what amounts to tweaks?
OR were they afraid of the approaching uncapped year and all the soon-to-be home-grown Texan F/As they wanted to be able to make attractive offers to - i.e., Ryans, O.D., etc... so their hands were somewhat tied...??

I found this PFW read interesting..

Houston Texans

Potential UFAs: RB Chris Brown, ILB Khary Campbell, S Nick Ferguson, QB Rex Grossman, OG Chester Pitts, OG Tutan Reyes, CB Dunta Robinson, OLB Chaun Thompson, P Matt Turk, WR Kevin ­Walter, DT Jeff Zgonina.

Potential RFAs: DT Tim Bulman, S John Busing*, OT Rashad Butler*, TE Owen Daniels*, RB Ryan Moats*, S Bernard Pollard*, ILB DeMeco Ryans*, C Chris White*.

Analysis: The Texans' focus in free agency figures to be on keeping their own. They would like to re-sign DeMeco Ryans, Owen Daniels and Dunta Robinson, but bringing back all three players could prove challenging, considering the financial commitment it would take, as well as the interest all would draw if they hit the market. It would be surprising if the Texans didn't use the franchise tag on one of the three aforementioned players. Ryans is one of the game's top middle linebackers and is a fit in any defense. Daniels was playing as well as any tight end not named Dallas Clark when he suffered a season-ending knee injury in the Nov. 1 victory at Buffalo. If Daniels' recovery is coming along nicely, expect the Texans to try to sign him for the long term, but he is also likely to have other suitors. The same can be said for Robinson; above-average cornerbacks don't hit the market often. He received the franchise tag last offseason and doesn't want it again. Chester Pitts, who has been with the franchise since its inception, could be back if he's sufficiently recovered from a knee injury that ended his season. Ex-Chief Bernard Pollard has done enough in his short stint in Houston to merit being part of the defensive plans next season, but the outlook may be a little murkier for Kevin Walter, who could be supplanted by the speedier Jacoby Jones.

 

[houstonspartan]

I'll give you that, but it's been pretty thinly veiled that they also consider people who think this should have been Kubiak's last year unreasonable and closed-minded at best.

=================

Another year at 8-8 wouldn't change anything. It would still be just as "difficult" to find an above average coach, we could still "hope" Kubiak would get it in year six, we'd still have one more draft to fill more holes, and the kids would have one more year to become older.

If it truly is just one more year and they would say they've seen enough, then the line between the soapers and the sunshine club is nothing more than an arbitrary number.

Four years is unrealistic, but five years is "right". That seems baseless, and as closed-minded as the soapers are being portrayed.

I also don't believe five years of mediocrity would be enough for many. There will always be player screw-ups, injuries, and holes in the line up to excuse Kubes.

==========

Of course, Kubiak may finally get it, the kids may become men, and the team goes 11-5 next year. The recent history of the team doesn't really support that, but stranger things have happened. Hope springs eternal, if not constant improvement.

Thank you. That is the point I was trying to make in my smart-alec comment earlier about a lifetime contract. You explained it so much better.

What's the huge difference between four years and five years? And, why is five years "enough" time but four years isn't?

And, as you said, there will surely be bad plays, bad calls by refs, and likely some injuries next year. People who want Kubiak to stay will be using the same excuses then as they are using now.

The reason this argument has become so divided and heated is because people who want Kubes gone are talking about FACTS and people who want him to stay are talking about possibilites and maybes and coulda, shoulda, woulda.

 

[infantrycak]

I'll give you that, but it's been pretty thinly veiled that they also consider people who think this should have been Kubiak's last year unreasonable and closed-minded at best.

I am very on the fence about the whole issue. Having said that I think it is fair to say some of the most vocal anti-Kubiak are closed-minded and ham handed insisting anyone who opposing dumping him is insane, unable to reason, whatever. I don't see as much antagonism from the pro-Kubiak crowd. But that seems to be the nature of all get rid of him or keep him discussions over the years.

Four years is unrealistic, but five years is "right". That seems baseless, and as closed-minded as the soapers are being portrayed.

I just don't think that comment is correct. From what I read and contemplate myself it is nothing about an arbitrary number of years, it is a perception of improvement despite the record. I think a lot more people would be anti-Kubiak if you reverse this year and 2007 such that each .500 (to date) team looks worse.

 

[ObsiWan]

I haven't seen anyone suggest anything other than one more year.



Apparently not since now somehow Sparano is a better coach with the same record since their W for beating Buffalo counts for more than our W for beating Buffalo.

that's all I'm sayin'
I want to see one more.
Bud stuck with Jeffy thru a 1-6 season, 7-9 season, and three straight 8-8 seasons. He was rewarded with two straight 13-3 seasons.
Damn if I'm less patient than Bud "break-up-the-Oilers-cause-they-missed-the Super Bowl" Adams.

 

[infantrycak]

The reason this argument has become so divided and heated is because people who want Kubes gone are talking about FACTS and people who want him to stay are talking about possibilites and maybes and coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Runner, here is what I am talking about. Is this open-minded? No it is a self-congratulatory canard. I have no problem with folks who want to see Kubiak gone, but the rhetoric from the anti camp is much more bombastic.

 

[houstonspartan]

Runner, here is what I am talking about. Is this open-minded? No it is a self-congratulatory canard. I have no problem with folks who want to see Kubiak gone, but the rhetoric from the anti camp is much more bombastic.

Bombastic?

What's bombastic in what I said? Facts are facts.

Gary is 1-5 in the division this year, and he is 7-17 in the division overall in his career here.

What's bombastic about that? There is nothing self-congratulatory about anything. You guys want to play victim and accuse us of beating up on you for no apparent reason. We aren't. We are discussing facts.

Why is that so complicated?

 

[Runner]

Runner, here is what I am talking about. Is this open-minded? No it is a self-congratulatory canard. I have no problem with folks who want to see Kubiak gone, but the rhetoric from the anti camp is much more bombastic.

Hmmm. Not sure I agree with the rhetoric comment. I know I could find some similar comments from the keep Kubiak side if I looked - there are some less than stellar posts coming from there too. I know I tend to be more of a smart ass than I should be when I start getting patronized by holders of the opposing view, and that happens often enough on this topic.

However, defending the extremists and more poorly spoken isn't what I'm trying to do, so I'll freely and honestly admit sometimes I'd prefer not to get "help" from some of those on "my side". Lopping off the outlying couple of standard deviations of posters from both ends of the curve would help most discussions.

 

[Runner]

I just don't think that comment is correct. From what I read and contemplate myself it is nothing about an arbitrary number of years, it is a perception of improvement despite the record. I think a lot more people would be anti-Kubiak if you reverse this year and 2007 such that each .500 (to date) team looks worse.

I think the comment is correct in answer to your original assertation that no one is asking for more than one more year. If so, than those people would be ready to get rid of Kubiak after next season if he goes 8-8 again, regardless of perceived improvement.

However, if people are asking for more than one year if further 8-8 seasons show this perceived improvement, then I wouldn't have talked about an arbitrary number of years. I probably would have addressed the arbitrary nature and value of "perceived improvement" with no significant improvement in the win/loss ratio.

 

[infantrycak]

Lopping off the outlying couple of standard deviations of posters from both ends of the curve would help most discussions.

Very true.

I think the comment is correct in answer to your original assertation that no one is asking for more than one more year. If so, than those people would be ready to get rid of Kubiak after next season if he goes 8-8 again, regardless of perceived improvement.

However, if people are asking for more than one year if further 8-8 seasons show this perceived improvement, then I wouldn't have talked about an arbitrary number of years. I probably would have addressed the arbitrary nature of "perceived improvement" with no significant improvement in the win/loss ratio.

I can't think of a single person (and there very well may be one) who has said keep him next year with another 8-8 season with perceived improvement. I have seen a whole bunch of folks say one more year and if the playoffs are missed can him.

Please address my assertion - many more people would be calling for Kubiak's head now if the 2007 and 2009 seasons were reversed. I get the W/L thing but I also think we are capable of more discernment.

 

[houstonspartan]

Hmmm. Not sure I agree with the rhetoric comment. I know I could find some similar comments from the keep Kubiak side if I looked - there are some less than stellar posts coming from there too. I know I tend to be more of a smart ass than I should be when I start getting patronized by holders of the opposing view, and that happens often enough on this topic.

However, defending the extremists and more poorly spoken isn't what I'm trying to do, so I'll freely and honestly admit sometimes I'd prefer not to get "help" from some of those on "my side". Lopping off the outlying couple of standard deviations of posters from both ends of the curve would help most discussions.

Well, I personally don't think I'm one of the "poorly spoken" people coming from the anti-Kubiak camp. My opinion of him has been shaped over the last 15 months or so. It was last season that I first started to suspect something, but I gave him this year. I have been rational.

If I'm too smart ass sometimes, it's because, as you pointed out, there are patronizing people on both sides of the fence. Someone called people who didn't want Kubiak back so-called fans.

Me a so-called fan? When I've been a season ticket holder for five year and pay the bills for this team? I don't think so. I don't take kindly to that kind of "rhetoric" and it offends me. So when people offend with rhetoric, I sometimes strike back with rhetoric. It happens.

But even when I strike back with facts (Gary being 1-5 in the division, as an example), they scream and say we're being unreasonable. I don't get it.

 

[houstonspartan]

I will also say this: A comment by a pro-kubiak person (couldn't remember if it was on this board or another one) really opened my eyes to something.

This person said that we basically have too many rookies starting, and that's rare for the NFL, but we really don't have any choice, for the most part.

You know, that was the one thing that really made me think. He's right. We do start a lot of rookies, which hinders development as a unit. (though, I haven't looked it up officially) That is a fact. It's not opinion or hyperbole.

That argument I will buy. But I have a hard time with the Tom Landry comparisions.

 

[steelbtexan]

I'm in the pink soap crowd because I dont think Kubes can win the city of Houston a championship. I think Kubes will do much better if he gets a second chance with another team. (Belichek)

However I dont want Kubes fired if McNair isn't willing to pay to get the best coach that's available and that list is getting shorter by the day. Holmgren,Shanny Sr.)

 

[Runner]

I can't think of a single person (and there very well may be one) who has said keep him next year with another 8-8 season with perceived improvement. I have seen a whole bunch of folks say one more year and if the playoffs are missed can him.

I think there are many that won't commit to "playoffs or can him". I spent an afternoon trying to get a yes or no answer to the following question. (I'd like to see Kubiak supporters answer it now, for that matter. It might clear up this "only one more year" question).

If the 2010 Texans go 8-8 with the same "improvement" as this year, should Kubiak get a new contract?

Only one person attempted to answer, and in several attempts could not say yes or no. The final answer was that it was too complex a situation without seeing the 2010 season because he couldn't picture the improvement or something. What was complex about it in reality was that he was caught in a quandary within the context of that discussion:

If he said no, he wouldn't have been able to answer my obvious follow up question: What makes this year any different? Why should Kubiak be kept as a lame duck coach under the same circimstances of mediocre record but the same perceived improvement?

If he said yes, than he wouldn't have been able to deny that continued mediocrity in the W/L column was acceptable. Claiming improvement was more important than winning.

I think we will again find that most Kubiak supporters won't answer the question.

====================

There are also those posters who claim they'd rather see a "much improved" Texans team with a losing record than a 12-4 team that lucks its way into the winning record and goes to the Super Bowl. Most of that was in last year's off-season though. (However a variation just popped up again today.) I think it was a mechanism to avoid holding the team accountable for this year's performance, even though the same posters were confident in their predictions of playoff glory. I don't know though; they may really believe it.

Please address my assertion - many more people would be calling for Kubiak's head now if the 2007 and 2009 seasons were reversed. I get the W/L thing but I also think we are capable of more discernment.

I don't know; probably. Frankly, it is a "what-if" that I don't think too much about.

Personally, I don't think the team has progessed much this year overall, but others have claimed that it shows great improvement. Perhaps I'm just not capable of the discernment of which you speak, but I see a pattern of futility: some areas have improved significantly, but some have regressed just as significantly while others stayed about the same. The regression must be subtracted from the progression to get a true picture.

I do think there are some die hards that could "prove" that 2007 was better than 2009 if the order was reversed. The argument has reached the point where holding your position is more important than being consistent or making sense.

 

[steelbtexan]

I will also say this: A comment by a pro-kubiak person (couldn't remember if it was on this board or another one) really opened my eyes to something.

This person said that we basically have too many rookies starting, and that's rare for the NFL, but we really don't have any choice, for the most part.

You know, that was the one thing that really made me think. He's right. We do start a lot of rookies, which hinders development as a unit. (though, I haven't looked it up officially) That is a fact. It's not opinion or hyperbole.

That argument I will buy. But I have a hard time with the Tom Landry comparisions.

Smithiaks biggest failure is that they have not brought in enough vets that can still play and show the young guys how to win when they face adversity. IMO

I dont know if this was by design or if this philosophy came from upper management. I wonder why McNair didn't tell Kubes you can hire Bush if you want to but I want you to interview other DC candidates and pick their brains about what they woud do to contain the VY's and Mannings of the world.

It never hurts to gain knowlege from other qualified defnsive minds in the NFL. This conversation never occurred among the Texans braintrust. IMO

 

[houstonspartan]

Smithiaks biggest failure is that they have not brought in enough vets that can still play and show the young guys how to win when they face adversity. IMO

I dont know if this was by design or if this philosophy came from upper management. I wonder why McNair didn't tell Kubes you can hire Bush if you want to but I want you to interview other DC candidates and pick their brains about what they woud do to contain the VY's and Mannings of the world.

It never hurts to gain knowlege from other qualified defnsive minds in the NFL. This conversation never occurred among the Texans braintrust. IMO

Well, McNair let Kubiak run the team on decisions like that. That's not a bad thing. It's great that we have an owner that doesn't micromanage.

I do agree that we should have looked around for another D cord though.

 

[ObsiWan]

Bombastic?

What's bombastic in what I said? Facts are facts.

Gary is 1-5 in the division this year, and he is 7-17 in the division overall in his career here.

What's bombastic about that? There is nothing self-congratulatory about anything. You guys want to play victim and accuse us of beating up on you for no apparent reason. We aren't. We are discussing facts.

Why is that so complicated?

at the risk of restarting when we've (at least I thought) agreed to disagree - this is sorta "bombastic"

I know what you want. You want to give Kubiak a lifetime contract so he has time to figure things out. Unfortunately, that's not how the NFL works these days. 25 years ago? Yes. Now? No.

The NFL has coaches that have been in their jobs for two years or less and are on the hot seat, yet we are being cruel because we want improvement after FOUR YEARS?

Go sell it someplace else.

I never said or implied (I don't think) that Kubiak should be given a "lifetime contract". I don't think anyone said that. Yet, you know that's what I want....
I don't remember reading where anyone said you guys were "being cruel". Well, I know I didn't.

Anyway, that's the kind of stuff I-Cak is referring to.

to borrow a classic line from Broadcast News...
You're mad as hell and you can't take Kubiak any more.

I get that.
I'm not there yet, but I get it.

I'm willing to give Smithiak one more year because we're going in the right direction and I think one more draft ought to do it.
You want change now.


The discussion really doesn't have to get any more intense (for lack of a better word) than that.

 

[ObsiWan]

Well, I personally don't think I'm one of the "poorly spoken" people coming from the anti-Kubiak camp. My opinion of him has been shaped over the last 15 months or so. It was last season that I first started to suspect something, but I gave him this year. I have been rational.

If I'm too smart ass sometimes, it's because, as you pointed out, there are patronizing people on both sides of the fence. Someone called people who didn't want Kubiak back so-called fans.

Me a so-called fan? When I've been a season ticket holder for five year and pay the bills for this team? I don't think so. I don't take kindly to that kind of "rhetoric" and it offends me. So when people offend with rhetoric, I sometimes strike back with rhetoric. It happens.

But even when I strike back with facts (Gary being 1-5 in the division, as an example), they scream and say we're being unreasonable. I don't get it.

That's not unreasonable.
Hell, I'd like to see us go 6-0 in the division. At the end of preseason, I honestly thought we had a decent shot at 3-3 in the division - no more than that though. I actually thought we had enough firepower to split home-and-home with everyone if our defense played halfway decently.
Nothing unreasonable about that.

 

[steelbtexan]

Obsi

What were our needs going into this offseason?
1. CB, LB,RB,S,DT, depth on OL

What are our needs this offseason?

CB,S,RB,OL,DT

Are you starting to see a theme in the Smithiak regime?

 

[ObsiWan]

Obsi

What were our needs going into this offseason?
1. CB, LB,RB,S,DT, depth on OL

What are our needs this offseason?

CB,S,RB,OL,DT

Are you starting to see a theme in the Smithiak regime?

First, I'd argue with you about RB still being on that list - unless you've given up on Slaton
and second, I remember that the year before the list was even longer:
CB (remember Petey Faggins),
OLB (Greenwood/Danny Clark),
OL (no solid LT or C),
#1 RB (R.Dayne) & #2 RB (D. Walker),
DE (A.Weaver),
FS & SS (C.C.Brown, Von Hutchins?),
DT (Travis Johnson),

so yeah, I see a theme; the list has gotten shorter every year.

 

[Brisco_County]

I wonder how different this conversation would be if we had lost to the Rams.

I'm not sure where I stand yet. I am decided on two things though: Keeping Kubiak depends on who's available, and also that the inexperience of players on a completely rebuilt team is a considerable factor in the decision. On a team like this, you're going to see irregular progression, regression, inconsistency, and learning curves.

I do believe that this is a better team than last year on both sides of the ball, with the exception of run blocking. If McNair decides to keep Kubiak, the man had better draft at least two O-linemen, or get one off the market.