Kubiak Supporters: Why should he stay?

[spurstexanstros]

There is a simple solution for you. Don't click the link that says "Kubiak Supporters: Why should he stay?" and you will never be bothered by it.

I think we can all agree it is alot better than the start sage threads that went on adnauseum.

 

[Double Barrel]

Please see Silver Oaks post.

Pease see my reply to his post.

His reply would be like one of us entering one of those goofy NSZ political threads that goes on forever just to whine about why is it still going on. Just avoid it and it's problem solved.

p.s. to continue our discussion, I've got the MOTHER LODE:

Kubiak inheriting Bob McNair as owner >>>>>>>> Fisher inheriting Adams as owner.

 

[Texan_Bill]

Kubiak inheriting Bob McNair as owner >>>>>>>> Fisher inheriting Adams as owner.

Game over. /End Thread.

 

[thunderkyss]

psssst...little secret, man....

Every losing head coach in the history of the NFL can point to the players not executing. I do not believe any given unsuccessful head coach purposefully put their team in a position to lose, so inversely, they all tried to put their teams in position to win. In every case, the players did not execute.

Players fumble, throw interceptions, don't catch interceptions, miss blocks, miss tackles, etc......

We had a bunch of that in those games against winning teams, & we still could have won those games, or tied. Is that just a talented team that is able to do that?

I watched the Redskins the other night, playing the Giants. That was an embarrasing performance that should go all the way to the coaching level. Not any of the performances we've put on the field, was that bad.

With of course the exception of the Jets game. The Jets game I'll put completely on Kubiak. We acted like we had no idea who Rex Ryan was.

The first Jax game, I think that was the game we took out half the play book, because Schaub was gimpy. I'll put that one on Kubiak as well.

Other than that, I think the play-calling plus the talent on this team kept those games close enough for us to win in the end.

& Kris Brown missed 2 field goals in the second game vs Tenneessee. A game we lost by 3.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I think we can all agree it is alot better than the start sage threads that went on adnauseum.

I think if Sage were here we might be over the hump already

 

[steelbtexan]

First, I'd argue with you about RB still being on that list - unless you've given up on Slaton
and second, I remember that the year before the list was even longer:
CB (remember Petey Faggins),
OLB (Greenwood/Danny Clark),
OL (no solid LT or C),
#1 RB (R.Dayne) & #2 RB (D. Walker),
DE (A.Weaver),
FS & SS (C.C.Brown, Von Hutchins?),
DT (Travis Johnson),

so yeah, I see a theme; the list has gotten shorter every year.

How has the list gotten shorter?

CB we still need at least 1 or 2
OLB Cushing solved this problem so I'll give you this one
OL I think it's obvious that this problem hasn't been solved
RB Slaton was drafted to be a 3rd down RB with durability ? We still need a RB
DE Adding A.Smith and Barwin has helped but there's still no pass rush
S Wilson is OK, They got lucky with Pollard and if they had traded a 7th rd pick for Pollard in TC Kubes job security probably wouldn't even be a ?
DT Still need a run stuffing DT IMO

Smithiak have only improved 2 positions Cushing and A.Smith (Pollard was pure luck and they didn't sign him early enough. IMO At this rate they should be a consistently winning team in 4/5 years. That means this was a 10/12 year building project. (Ridiculous) IMO

This is not enough progress for my taste. I wonder how much of this is Rick Smiths doing?

Anytime you think Kubes should be retained thnk how you felt when C.Brown threw that HB pass and ask youself who callrd that play? Who has final authority and why did Kubes think it was a good idea to call that play in that situation?

 

[DexmanC]

Keep in mind that 5 years is around the AVERAGE CAREER for a player!
We just don't have the time, in the modern NFL, to stick with mediocre
coaching for decades at a time.

The only thing that's changed about Kubiak's regime in FOUR YEARS , are the
excuses for winding up 8-8.

 

[axman40]

If you want to kill a thread you have to compare someone to Bud errrr I mean Hitler!

 

[Ndevine7]

In Kubiak's four years he has brought this program from the joke of the league to a highly feared team. He has racked up 6 8 8 wins in the last three seasons, and if not for the slow start of the Texans last year in response to the hurricane, this team would've been a potential playoff team. You cant blame poor play by Kris Brown and Chris Brown solely on Kubiak,and he has not let this team stay cold for too long.

 

[Pantherstang84]

I'll see your

uggh. this thread deserved a Dr. Kevorkian pages ago.

and raise you

 

[J_R]

In Kubiak's four years he has brought this program from the joke of the league to a highly feared team. He has racked up 6 8 8 wins in the last three seasons, and if not for the slow start of the Texans last year in response to the hurricane, this team would've been a potential playoff team. You cant blame poor play by Kris Brown and Chris Brown solely on Kubiak,and he has not let this team stay cold for too long.

I wouldnt say we are a feared team. Maybe by bottom feeder teams like the Bills, Browns, Bucs, Chiefs, Lions, Rams, etc. Not to say we are a joke either, but I dont think we are feared. I'm sure we're not a team that others would hate to face. Slow starts? That's nothing new - whether it be a slow start to the season or slow start to a game - starting slow is not new. And I will partially blame Kubiak for Brown & Brown. He keeps putting them out on the field. Why? Each have blown games and have cost us [to at least tie] games in the past. Same with Dunta. Why? Put your best "foot" forward so to speak. Put your best players on the field who give you the chance to win and leave them there. Don't take your star reciever out in goal line situations, in the red zone, or at the end of games. That's a bit silly if you ask me. As 'Dre has said, sometimes I'm left scratching my head.

 

[ObsiWan]

How has the list gotten shorter?

CB we still need at least 1 or 2
So you're saying Reeves and Robinson are just as bad as Robinson and Faggins? We'll have to agree to disagree here. We thought the #2 CB issue was solved when we picked up Reeves and were thinking that Bennett, based on his good rookie year production, would be our #3 - maybe push for Reeve's spot. He regressed his soph year and this year the Quin/McCain combo have played well enough to (maybe) make him expendable. Two years ago we had one quality CB to play with Petey Faggins, Jamar Fletcher (remember him?) and Von Hutchins. Now we have two, maybe three if the one or both two rooks continue to develop and/or Bennett returns to his rookie play level. You can't tell me you believe our secondary is as poor now as it was two years ago. I know you're smarter than that.

OLB Cushing solved this problem so I'll give you this one
Oh no, I claim two upgrades here - BOTH OLBs. Two years ago we had Greenwood and Danny Clark. Now we have Cushing and Diles. Both are playmakers and definite upgrades over what we had. In fact, with Adibi and K. Bentley as the backups, one could argue it's the deepest group on the team.

OL I think it's obvious that this problem hasn't been solved
No one was satisfied with Salaam so we drafted Brown last year and Caldwell this year. We have yet to see how that plays out.

RB Slaton was drafted to be a 3rd down RB with durability ? We still need a RB
Hold up! ...after Slaton posted 1600+ yds and ten TDs his rookie year, everyone pencilled him in as THE starter who " just needed someone to spell him so we don't shorten his career". During this past draft, I don't remember a single soul (there may have been some but *I* don't recall any) that said Slaton needed replacing as the starter "because he's just a 3rd down back". Now that he's had an off year, he's back to 3rd down back status. And think about where we came from. Wali Lundy/Samkon Gado/Ron Dayne/Chris Taylor (remember when we were thinking he'd develop into something special?) to Ahman Green/Ron Dayne/Darius Walker to Steve Slaton/Ryan Moats/Chris Brown (with Chris Henry waiting in the wings). Maybe you'd like to have Samkon Gado and/or Ahman Green back...?? Since there's been no progress, they must have been as good as what we have now. Agreed? No? Didn't think so.

DE Adding A.Smith and Barwin has helped but there's still no pass rush
I kind of actually agree with this assessment. While the Smith/Barwin combo is an definite upgrade over A. Weaver, I agree that there needs to be more production in the pass rush dept. I was hoping for Williams/Smith to be our version of Freeney/Mathis. That hasn't happened. But I do think that (after they finally got their act together) they're currently better against the run than what we had the year before.

S Wilson is OK, They got lucky with Pollard and if they had traded a 7th rd pick for Pollard in TC Kubes job security probably wouldn't even be a ?
I dunno about the trade scenario because I'm unsure if Pollard was even on the trading block when we were in camp. He may have been, I just don't know that. At least they had the good sense to snap him up when they found he was available. And while Wilson is better than Hutchins who was better than C.C.Brown, I'd still like to see us spend a quality (rd 1-3) pick on a real stud at FS; then let Wilson teach him the ropes for a while then turn him loose. Two years ago we needed two safeties. Now we just need one with more speed.

DT Still need a run stuffing DT IMO
No argument here. But you have to admit, real quality at that position is hard to come by. We'd have to trade up into the top 5 get Suh or McCoy to get the quality you want. If we do, good-bye stud RB or quality FS and maybe two 2nd day picks. Suh might be worth it.

Smithiak have only improved 2 positions Cushing and A.Smith (Pollard was pure luck and they didn't sign him early enough. IMO At this rate they should be a consistently winning team in 4/5 years. That means this was a 10/12 year building project. (Ridiculous) IMO
Tell ya what, go here...
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2007_roster.htm
look at the roster from two years ago, compare it to this year's roster, and tell me who from two years ago you would swap - spot for spot - with who we have now. Tell me who you wish we still had over what we've got now. Looking back at that roster, I'm amazed we won 8 games in 2007.

This is not enough progress for my taste. I wonder how much of this is Rick Smiths doing?
Don't forget the scouting department. I'm actually calling them on the carpet for the misses too. It's their scouting reports that Smithiak uses to make acquisition decisions. Having said that - you'll love this - it's on Smithiak to assess how accurate and truly useful those reports have been. If the scouts have been missing more than hitting, it's time for new scouts.

Anytime you think Kubes should be retained thnk how you felt when C.Brown threw that HB pass and ask youself who callrd that play? Who has final authority and why did Kubes think it was a good idea to call that play in that situation?
I addressed that in another thread. You cannot convince me that if that play had not been working in practice that Shanny or Kubiak would have trotted it out in a game. Hell, Kubiak is so paranoid that if a guy fumbles in practice, he doesn't get to play. Kubiak is too paranoid to 'draw something up in the dirt' then use it in the game. So if Brown hadn't SHOWN he could pull that pass off successfully during practice they would have never called it. Brown screwed the pooch.

so yeah, when I look at past rosters and compare them to the current one, I see progress; the list of obvious holes IS getting shorter.
Can we/should we continue to upgrade.
Hell yes. Forever. You say we need to upgrade the coach now. I say not yet. It's that simple.
But to say we've only upgraded two spots says to me you didn't look close enough.

 

[ObsiWan]

I still think the 4 stadiums in 4 years trumps all of this. This about all fo the talk last year and how the Texans got screwed because of the Katrina (guys weren't sleeping at home, had no permanent place to call home, practices were thrown off, homefield jacked) Then do that 4 years straight where every season was jacked up. To me I think it is even more incredible that he got them to where they were.

That's a tad dramatic don'tcha think?
Jeff Fisher took over for Pardee - in Houston - in 1994. They played here in '94 (1-5), '95 (7-9), and '96 (8-8). They moved to Tenn. in '97 where they initially played in Memphis' Liberty Bowl (8-8) then moved to Nashville in '98 (8-8).

So the first three yrs they played here in Houston.

I might agree with the 97 year where they played in Memphis as "jacked up" since everyone knew Memphis was temporary. Nashvillians had to drive to Memphis to see the games and the Memphis folks stayed away in droves because they were pouting at the fact Nashville, not them, got the Oilers.

But in '98, they were home in Nashville (Vandy stadium) with a brand new stadium under construction. But that's still only three stadiums during the "mediocre" years under discussion.

...but, honestly, all this is digression...

 

[beerlover]

so yeah, when I look at past rosters and compare them to the current one, I see progress; the list of obvious holes IS getting shorter.
Can we/should we continue to upgrade.
Hell yes. Forever. You say we need to upgrade the coach now. I say not yet. It's that simple.
But to say we've only upgraded two spots says to me you didn't look close enough.

confirmation from me, rep your way

 

[ObsiWan]

Wait a minute, let's re-examine your initial statement:



Fisher was hired as HC in November 1994.

He did not inherit Eddie George. Fisher drafted him in 1996.

He did not inherit Frank Wycheck. He picked him up from the Redskins in 1995.

Dishman filed for free agency after the 1996 season and did not play for the Oilers after that point.

And let's not act like ANYONE on the Oilers even compared to Andre Johnson. Seriously, bro', Kubiak - an offensive minded coach - inherited his BEST OFFENSIVE WEAPON.

AJ > entire 1994 Oilers team that Fisher inherited.

And Fisher's team played in four different home stadiums in four seasons.

Excuse me?
let me get this straight you're saying AJ is better than...
- Ray Childress (5x pro bowl; 1x 1st team All-Pro)
- Bruce Matthews (6x pro bowl; 4x 1st team All-Pro)
- Lorenzo White (1x pro bowl)
- Ernest Givens (2x pro bowl; 2x UPI All-Pro, 1x AP All-Pro)
- Haywood Jeffries (3x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)
- Webster Slaughter (2x pro bowl - just one w/Oilers)
- Al Smith (MLB) (2x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)
- Cris Dishman (1x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)
- Marcus Robertson (1x AP All-Pro)

There were others, Blaine Bishop, Bubba McDowell to name a couple who made the pro bowl or All Pro later so you could say Fisher inherited that level of talent too.
And before you poo-poo the pro bowl selections as the popularity contest it is today, remember only the players and coaches could vote a guy into the pro bowl before '96.

And with all that talent it still took Fisher five years to get over the hump

I love AJ to death but to say he's better than that whole team...
Come ON, Man!

OBTW, compare that list to the squad Kubiak inherited.

You just threw that B/S out to make me research it didn't you.
and it worked too
:o)

 

[steelbtexan]

Obsi

1. I would put CB at the top of the list. I hope Quin and McCain dont regress like Bennett but their isn't a no.1 CB on this team and this is the top priority. IMO

2. Getting Cushing did upgrade 2 LB spots. But one Lb spot would have been upgraded last year if Diles had stayed healthy. So I will reluctantly give you this point.
3.OL I think we agree that the OL is one of the weakest positions on this team. Brown is a middle of the road LT and I find it sad that the 3rd rd pick Caldwell cant beat out an undersized White. He would essentially would be running 3rd team if Briesel hadn't gotten hurt.

4. Most people on this board were in agreement that a RB needed to be drafted as a compliment to Slaton. I was on board for using a 3/4th rd pick last year. I feel the same way this year. Although I would try to adress it in FA (Ronnie Brown)
5. We agree

6. Pollard was cut after the Chiefs tried to trade him and couldn't find a taker. Even if this isn't true (not) Smithiak waited till after week two to sign Pollard. The defense was one of the worst in NFL history until Pollard got up to speed and played in week four. This bad decision helped contribute to the Jax defeat. IMO
7. Agreed I would try to sign Hampton or Seymour in FA or trade for Rodgers. This is due to my lack of faith in Smithiak being able to draft a competent run stuffer DT.
8. I didn't say that they haven't upgraded the roster at all but they aren't this super talented team. In fact I would say their roster is average and the holes are still there. Smithiak have been average in the war room. Look at this year draft how many impact players are in it ? If you're going to build through the draft you need to draft 3 impact players and 2 starters each year.

9. Agreed Who hired the scouting department? (Smithiak) Why does Bobby Greir still have a job?

10. That was a stupid call that cant be defended. (C.Brown Really) It showed o lack of confidence in Schaub and Johnson. IMO

Thanks for the reply I really like hearing other peoples thoughts.

 

[mussop]

That's a tad dramatic don'tcha think?
Jeff Fisher took over for Pardee - in Houston - in 1994. They played here in '94 (1-5), '95 (7-9), and '96 (8-8). They moved to Tenn. in '97 where they initially played in Memphis' Liberty Bowl (8-8) then moved to Nashville in '98 (8-8).

So the first three yrs they played here in Houston.

I might agree with the 97 year where they played in Memphis as "jacked up" since everyone knew Memphis was temporary. Nashvillians had to drive to Memphis to see the games and the Memphis folks stayed away in droves because they were pouting at the fact Nashville, not them, got the Oilers.

But in '98, they were home in Nashville (Vandy stadium) with a brand new stadium under construction. But that's still only three stadiums during the "mediocre" years under discussion.

...but, honestly, all this is digression...

If you were around those years you know that Fisher did a great job of keeping that team playing hard despite the fact that in 95 and 96 they knew they werent going to be here any longer. There is no comaparison to the coaching job Fisher did in those years and what Kubiak has done here. Kubiak is a below average coach and Fisher is one of the brightest and soundest coaches out there. To even mention them in the same breath as HC's is a joke.

Fisher = member of the competition commitee
Kubiak = turns his back on important plays because he cant handle the pressure.

How is Kubiak sopposed to handle the pressure of being on the hot seat coming out of the gate next year when he cant even handle watching important plays?

Thats what scares me the most about him coming back next year. If we get off to ANOTHER slow start our season will be over before we even have a chance to enjoy it.

 

[houstonspartan]

If you were around those years you know that Fisher did a great job of keeping that team playing hard despite the fact that in 95 and 96 they knew they werent going to be here any longer. There is no comaparison to the coaching job Fisher did in those years and what Kubiak has done here. Kubiak is a below average coach and Fisher is one of the brightest and soundest coaches out there. To even mention them in the same breath as HC's is a joke.

Fisher = member of the competition commitee
Kubiak = turns his back on important plays because he cant handle the pressure.

How is Kubiak sopposed to handle the pressure of being on the hot seat coming out of the gate next year when he cant even handle watching important plays?

Thats what scares me the most about him coming back next year. If we get off to ANOTHER slow start our season will be over before we even have a chance to enjoy it.

Gary turning his back during kicks is kind of weird and quirky and - in my opinion - wimpy and weak. But it shouldn't be a judge of whether or not he's a good coach.

I do think, however, that it is possible - and fair - to judge a coach's ability to handle pressure based on how his team responds to pressure situations. I agree 100 percent with the rest of your point. I've been saying it for weeks: If Kubiak can't handle the hot seat now, how will he respond next year when the seat gets 100 times hotter?

I almost feel sorry for the guy. If he returns next year, his life will be a living hell.

 

[beerlover]

1. I would put CB at the top of the list. I hope Quin and McCain dont regress like Bennett but their isn't a no.1 CB on this team and this is the top priority. IMO

yeah that sure would be nice spend it on another #10 overall draft pick (which we won't have this year) then when his contract expires wants 80 mil. seriously, I'll probably have to wait until the combine to see if there is a CB worthy of a 1st rd. grade for Texans who fits their style. Haden is going to be long gone I feel, after him I just don't know I think the Texans would be reaching & we don't want anymore reaching. It's easy to say we need a lock down corner every team needs/wants one so they're expensive & hard to get.

2. Getting Cushing did upgrade 2 LB spots. But one Lb spot would have been upgraded last year if Diles had stayed healthy. So I will reluctantly give you this point.

I'm confussed by Adibis regression, since I don't know the particulars I will not speculate suffice to say a 7th rounder beats out a 4th hey it happens, but the Adibi I know is explosive & can cover space alot quicker than Diles.

3.OL I think we agree that the OL is one of the weakest positions on this team. Brown is a middle of the road LT and I find it sad that the 3rd rd pick Caldwell cant beat out an undersized White. He would essentially would be running 3rd team if Briesel hadn't gotten hurt.

It's been weak since the franchise inception, it takes both investment & time to develop the rawer talents who otherwise have the make-up they look for. Brown is not a middle of the road LT he is a legitimate NFL starting LT last I knew at best there are only 32 in existance & I would argue some other teams don't have one but not Brown. Caldwell they are being careful to bring up slowly, so not to miss key fundemental changes in his technique they see as required to move forward, just remember everyone has a different timetable, not everyone can come out & be Brian Cushing.

4. Most people on this board were in agreement that a RB needed to be drafted as a compliment to Slaton. I was on board for using a 3/4th rd pick last year. I feel the same way this year. Although I would try to adress it in FA (Ronnie Brown)

I'm jaded (huge Steve Slaton fan). I really love this guy & hope he returns to form in 2010. Having said that yeah I thought a 3rd/4th a done deal. It's important to keep pecking away before a weakness becomes expoused like it has this season. I would add the priority just went up to a 2nd possibly a 1st given some excellent talent avaialble (Ryan Mathews, Fresno just declared he is coming out early, if he is there in 2nd I would jump on it).

6. Pollard was cut after the Chiefs tried to trade him and couldn't find a taker. Even if this isn't true (not) Smithiak waited till after week two to sign Pollard. The defense was one of the worst in NFL history until Pollard got up to speed and played in week four. This bad decision helped contribute to the Jax defeat. IMO

that's hindsight isn't it? I mean nobody is biting, the Texans are the ones who end up signing him & they're at fault? I can almost imagine David in there pleading his case on Pollards behalf & I'm sure Smith had to get the clearnence from Bob McNair himself with rampant rumors of character issues, that's been a turnoff for this organization since the beginning. I would think they should get props for taking a chance on him & his aggressive personality.

7. Agreed I would try to sign Hampton or Seymour in FA or trade for Rodgers. This is due to my lack of faith in Smithiak being able to draft a competent run stuffer DT.

your setting sights a little high, but hey that would be cool. Unless you want to burn another first on a DT it is safer to go the experienced route.

8. I didn't say that they haven't upgraded the roster at all but they aren't this super talented team. In fact I would say their roster is average and the holes are still there. Smithiak have been average in the war room. Look at this year draft how many impact players are in it ? If you're going to build through the draft you need to draft 3 impact players and 2 starters each year.

With a healthy roster the Texans are above average & I believe with Kubiak their record would reflect that despite the turnovers.

9. Agreed Who hired the scouting department? (Smithiak) Why does Bobby Greir still have a job?

where do I apply? Bobby Beerlover Greir

10. That was a stupid call that cant be defended. (C.Brown Really) It showed o lack of confidence in Schaub and Johnson. IMO

The reason it worked in practice & not the game is that Chris Brown is a choke, its as simple as that. (I like the Golf analogy where if I could just take my pratice range swing to the course I could be dangerous) It was a brilliant call but a blunder to put the ball (game) in his hands with that play. Your right the coaching staff has to do a better job getting the ball in key situations to their playmakers. Not sure how you simulate practice to compare with actual game situations (maybe keep a tigher schedule, timing plays etc...) but the game plan doesn't transfer enough from practice to Sunday, there is a serious disconnect which has to be addressed.

 

[thunderkyss]

Gary turning his back during kicks is kind of weird and quirky and - in my opinion - wimpy and weak. But it shouldn't be a judge of whether or not he's a good coach.

I do think, however, that it is possible - and fair - to judge a coach's ability to handle pressure based on how his team responds to pressure situations. I agree 100 percent with the rest of your point. I've been saying it for weeks: If Kubiak can't handle the hot seat now, how will he respond next year when the seat gets 100 times hotter?

I almost feel sorry for the guy. If he returns next year, his life will be a living hell.

If Kubiak couldn't handle the pressure, he would have been blaming the players a long time ago, or Shanahan, or stopped taking questions from the media a long time ago. Instead he looks them in the eye & says, "it's on me!" & U guys think he can't handle the pressure?

I do agree it's a quirk. Bit maybe that's his way of staying calm & rational.

 

[Thorn]

If the Texans go 9-7, Kukiak is a lock for next year, and that's probably true at 8-8 also. The only way Kubiak is not back next year is we drop the last two games, and I just don't see that happening. The players want Kubiak back, and they'll take one of these two games, if not both.

Kubiak has improved this team immensely, so he's got that going for him. However after four years, he hasn't installed a total winning attitude yet, so that's a pretty heavy knock on him. I think he's back for another year, and I think most of us all agree with that even if some of us don't like it.

However, I'm getting sick of the phrase "next year". I think those two words should be banned, and instead we all use NxY instead. Kind of like HWNSNBM. Because we all have a heavy bowl full of NxY to eat as there ain't nothing else being served at this table.

 

[ObsiWan]

I have a question for the "Soapers"...

why pink?

if you're really pissed, and some of you are really, truly, inconsolably pissed, then why not something tougher like Brillo or better yet, Lava


....I'm just sayin'...

 

[Thorn]

The Sarge ain't so soaper. The Sarge don't need soap.

 

[mussop]

I have a question for the "Soapers"...

why pink?

if you're really pissed, and some of you are really, truly, inconsolably pissed, then why not something tougher like Brillo or better yet, Lava


....I'm just sayin'...

Thanks I like it!

 

[Lucky]

Excuse me?
let me get this straight you're saying AJ is better than...
- Ray Childress (5x pro bowl; 1x 1st team All-Pro)
- Bruce Matthews (6x pro bowl; 4x 1st team All-Pro)
- Lorenzo White (1x pro bowl)
- Ernest Givens (2x pro bowl; 2x UPI All-Pro, 1x AP All-Pro)
- Haywood Jeffries (3x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)
- Webster Slaughter (2x pro bowl - just one w/Oilers)
- Al Smith (MLB) (2x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)
- Cris Dishman (1x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)
- Marcus Robertson (1x AP All-Pro)

There were others, Blaine Bishop, Bubba McDowell to name a couple who made the pro bowl or All Pro later so

Most of the guys you listed were over the hill by the time Fisher took over and never contributed to his teams. Matthews and Bishop being major exceptions.

The constant comparisons of Kubiak to other coaches is lopsided. Why not mention Kubiak with coaches who never found success over 4 seasons, like David Shula or Bruce Coslet? Kubiak has a lot more in common with these guys.

 

[El Tejano]

Because I remember the days when getting a first down was a hope that the team has turned the page. Since Kubiak has been here, our offense has been in the top 5 offenses in the league. People say he can't get us in the endzone but at some point you have to look at the players. Our OL isn't what it was a year ago and neither are our RBs.

You look at our rival Tenn. and they stuck with their coach after two 8-8 seasons. He now has the longest tenure of amongst active coaches. Even if we fall short of the playoffs, the mere fact that we are still in discussion for the playoffs with only two games left in the season is a sign of improvement. People want to throw Kubiak away because we are 7-7 but 5 other teams in the hunt for playoffs are 7-7 and we are only one game out of owning a wildcard spot. That is improvement among the AFC.

Looking at the QB position. We are one of very few teams who can say we have a QB who has grasped the system after only 38 starts or so. If we start over, Matt has to start over and we possibly begin a search all over again for the most important position on the field. Right now Schaub and Johnson have a real good chemistry. Any coach who comes in and we start showing a sign of rebuilding and/or declining on offense - Andre Johnson is gone.

Say what you want, but Kubiak has even helped the defense get better. In 3 years of football for the Texans he has brought his team up to the 12th ranked defense. I say Kubiak is responsible for that because he's wanted Frank Bush all along and only settled for Richard Smith when Bush was held back by Arizona.

In three years of drafting, he's had more hits than misses in the 1st round - Mario and Cushing. Amobi is a miss but he does stuff sometimes that makes you say - one more year.

The team loves Kubiak and plays for him. That's very hard to find in this league of over paid millinaires.

Please understand that I was in the fire Kubiak group only a week ago. After sitting back and thinking about how it could potentially mess up our offense, I'm thinking I will stick with Kubiak for one more year because after that he will have had 4 years and Schaub 4 years. If there are no playoffs at that point it's time to look around and go in a different direction altogether.

 

[axman40]

The Sarge ain't so soaper. The Sarge don't need soap.

The Sarge reeks?

 

[Thorn]

The Sarge reeks?

The Sarge bathes in the blood of his enemys. This weekend, it's Dolphin steaks. LOL

 

[HJam72]

Well....somebody needs 2 be fired.

...so...let's talk about our starting center and D-Robbing-our-cap-space...

...oh, and anyone named *ris Brown.

 

[thunderkyss]

However, I'm getting sick of the phrase "next year". I think those two words should be banned, and instead we all use NxY instead. Kind of like HWNSNBM. Because we all have a heavy bowl full of NxY to eat as there ain't nothing else being served at this table.

I agree. This year started with a lot of "play-offs or bust" talk, & I always thought that was a bit pre-mature. Not that I thought we weren't capable of getting to the play-offs, but there are just so many things going on, that a play-off spot can be won or lost depending on so many variables.

Last year, The Patriots couldn't get in at 11-5. This year, as of know, it is possible to have two 9-7 teams in the AFC play-offs.

Next year, based on what I've seen this year, I think play-offs is reasonable, because I think the division is reasonable.

 

[thunderkyss]

I have a question for the "Soapers"...

why pink?

if you're really pissed, and some of you are really, truly, inconsolably pissed, then why not something tougher like Brillo or better yet, Lava


....I'm just sayin'...

You know the pink soaper thing is a spin off of the movie "Fight Club" I don't think anybody gave a thought to the color of the soap.

 

[ObsiWan]

Most of the guys you listed were over the hill by the time Fisher took over and never contributed to his teams. Matthews and Bishop being major exceptions.

The constant comparisons of Kubiak to other coaches is lopsided. Why not mention Kubiak with coaches who never found success over 4 seasons, like David Shula or Bruce Coslet? Kubiak has a lot more in common with these guys.

Okay, you're on.... In both cases, we're talking the Cincinnati Bengals. And I'll throw in Coslet's successor, Dick LeBeau.

Shula, came to the 3-13 team left by Sam Wyche. Still had Boomer Esiason @ QB. And quite frankly, I thought he got the job largely on his daddy's name.
Year 1: 5-11
Year 2: 3-11
Year 3: 3-11
Year 4: 7-9
Year 5: 1-6 (was fired @ that point)
19-48; 0.286 pct.

Coslet, followed Shula.
Year 1: 7-2 (looks promising; brought them from 1-6 to finish 8-8)
Year 2: 7-9 (uh oh, slight regression)
Year 3: 3-13 (oh snap! major regression)
Year 4: 4-14
Year 5: 0-3... (see ya!)
21-41; 0.339 pct.

Dick LeBeau took over for Coslet
Year 1: 4-9
Year 2: 6-10 (some improvement)
Year 3: 2-14 (oh snap!!)
Year 4: N/A, replaced by Marvin Lewis
12-33; 0.267 pct.

They sucked @ head coaching. None of these guys produced a .500 year and even they were given a fifth year to fix things - albeit they were on a short leash.

Kubiak, came to a 2-14 team:
Year 1: 6-12
Year 2: 8-8
Year 3: 8-8
Year 4: 7-7 (to date)
29-33; 0.468 pct.

The takeaway, for me, looking at these guys plus Jeff Fisher's and Tom Landry's starts (he didn't even make it to .500 until year 6), is: sometimes it takes that fifth year to see exactly what the coach has built.

Sometimes you miss, sometimes you hit. There are no sure bets. Not even Cowher.

 

[ObsiWan]

Most of the guys you listed were over the hill by the time Fisher took over and never contributed to his teams. Matthews and Bishop being major exceptions.

yeah, I'll kinda give you that point.

Ray Childress was at the end of his career when Jeff took over but he still had 6 sacks during Jeff's first year. I wish Capers had left us a perennial pro bowler or two so we could have had something to build on in the trenches.

Not to mention the basis of a decent, no, solid secondary in Dishman, Daryll Lewis, Bishop, and Marcus Robertson. Those two safeties were fixtures for years. He got three good years out of Dishman before replacing him.

 

[Double Barrel]

Excuse me?

You're excused.

- Ray Childress (5x pro bowl; 1x 1st team All-Pro)

Great player...in his prime. He was with the Oilers to 1995, then for the Cowboys for 1996.

- Lorenzo White (1x pro bowl)

1994 was his last season with the Oilers, which is the year Fisher took the job.

- Ernest Givens (2x pro bowl; 2x UPI All-Pro, 1x AP All-Pro)

Givins was gone after 1994. He played with the Jags in 1995.

- Haywood Jeffries (3x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)

Jeffires last season with the Oilers was 1995. He played for the Saints to end his career.

- Webster Slaughter (2x pro bowl - just one w/Oilers)

Slaughter was gone after 1994, as well. He went on to play for the Chiefs, Jets, and Chargers.

- Al Smith (MLB) (2x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)

Al Smith - gone in 1996.

- Cris Dishman (1x pro bowl; 1x AP All-Pro)

Dishman gone after 1996.

Bubba McDowell

Bubba McDowell was gone after the 1994 season.

And with all that talent it still took Fisher five years to get over the hump

"All that talent" was washed up for the most part, and he still had to deal with a lame duck season, as well as moving the team to different home stadiums.

You're bending yourself into a pretzel trying to make the comparison with Kubiak and Fisher.

I love AJ to death but to say he's better than that whole team...
Come ON, Man!

Reading comprehension is FUNdamental.

"Kubiak - an offensive minded coach - inherited his BEST OFFENSIVE WEAPON."

Do you think Kubiak would have preferred Bruce Matthews and Blaine Bishop over Andre Johnson for his offense? These are the only two players you mentioned that were still in their prime when Fisher got them over the hump after much adversity.

OBTW, compare that list to the squad Kubiak inherited.

You just threw that B/S out to make me research it didn't you.
and it worked too
:o)

Perhaps you should have conducted a bit deeper research to learn that the overwhelming majority of players inherited by Fisher were either gone and/or over the hill.

Most of the guys you listed were over the hill by the time Fisher took over and never contributed to his teams. Matthews and Bishop being major exceptions.

Exactly. You said in two sentences what I had to counter and research.

The constant comparisons of Kubiak to other coaches is lopsided. Why not mention Kubiak with coaches who never found success over 4 seasons, like David Shula or Bruce Coslet? Kubiak has a lot more in common with these guys.

Or Dick Jauron.

 

[infantrycak]

Or Dick Jauron.

In Buffalo? Why is that a more appropriate comparison than Fisher? His 4th and last year the team was worse. He also had three losing seasons prior to his 4th season. I guess if we lose the next two games the comparison would be more apt.

Doesn't really matter. I don't think any of the comparisons have any predictive capacity.

 

[ObsiWan]

You're excused.
Thank you

"All that talent" was washed up for the most part, and he still had to deal with a lame duck season, as well as moving the team to different home stadiums.

You're bending yourself into a pretzel trying to make the comparison with Kubiak and Fisher.

Reading comprehension is FUNdamental.

"Kubiak - an offensive minded coach - inherited his BEST OFFENSIVE WEAPON."

Do you think Kubiak would have preferred Bruce Matthews and Blaine Bishop over Andre Johnson for his offense? These are the only two players you mentioned that were still in their prime when Fisher got them over the hump after much adversity.

Perhaps you should have conducted a bit deeper research to learn that the overwhelming majority of players inherited by Fisher were either gone and/or over the hill.

Exactly. You said in two sentences what I had to counter and research.

I've already conceded your and Lucky's point - partially anyway.
If you had read down one or two more posts, "Mr. Reading comprehension is FUNdamental", you'd have seen that.

note:

yeah, I'll kinda give you that point.

Ray Childress was at the end of his career when Jeff took over but he still had 6 sacks during Jeff's first year. I wish Capers had left us a perennial pro bowler or two so we could have had something to build on in the trenches.

Not to mention the basis of a decent, no, solid secondary in Dishman, Daryll Lewis, Bishop, and Marcus Robertson. Those two safeties were fixtures for years. He got three good years out of Dishman before replacing him.

Yeah, perhaps some of them were on the downhill side of their careers but "washed up"? Naah. Hell, Childress was good for six sacks Fisher's first year. A 32-yr old Ray Childress is still >> Travis Johnson + Anthony Maddox + Anthony Weaver.

And this is the remark in your post that I challenged...

AJ > entire 1994 Oilers team that Fisher inherited

As good as A.J. is - and no doubt he's the best WR on the planet - he's not effective without sommmebody to reliably get the ball to him.

 

[thunderkyss]

woooo


saaaaah


wooo saaah

 

[ObsiWan]

In Buffalo? Why is that a more appropriate comparison than Fisher? His 4th and last year the team was worse. He also had three losing seasons prior to his 4th season. I guess if we lose the next two games the comparison would be more apt.

Doesn't really matter. I don't think any of the comparisons have any predictive capacity.

truth be told, neither do we.

 

[steelbtexan]

yeah that sure would be nice spend it on another #10 overall draft pick (which we won't have this year) then when his contract expires wants 80 mil. seriously, I'll probably have to wait until the combine to see if there is a CB worthy of a 1st rd. grade for Texans who fits their style. Haden is going to be long gone I feel, after him I just don't know I think the Texans would be reaching & we don't want anymore reaching. It's easy to say we need a lock down corner every team needs/wants one so they're expensive & hard to get.



I'm confussed by Adibis regression, since I don't know the particulars I will not speculate suffice to say a 7th rounder beats out a 4th hey it happens, but the Adibi I know is explosive & can cover space alot quicker than Diles.



It's been weak since the franchise inception, it takes both investment & time to develop the rawer talents who otherwise have the make-up they look for. Brown is not a middle of the road LT he is a legitimate NFL starting LT last I knew at best there are only 32 in existance & I would argue some other teams don't have one but not Brown. Caldwell they are being careful to bring up slowly, so not to miss key fundemental changes in his technique they see as required to move forward, just remember everyone has a different timetable, not everyone can come out & be Brian Cushing.



I'm jaded (huge Steve Slaton fan). I really love this guy & hope he returns to form in 2010. Having said that yeah I thought a 3rd/4th a done deal. It's important to keep pecking away before a weakness becomes expoused like it has this season. I would add the priority just went up to a 2nd possibly a 1st given some excellent talent avaialble (Ryan Mathews, Fresno just declared he is coming out early, if he is there in 2nd I would jump on it).



that's hindsight isn't it? I mean nobody is biting, the Texans are the ones who end up signing him & they're at fault? I can almost imagine David in there pleading his case on Pollards behalf & I'm sure Smith had to get the clearnence from Bob McNair himself with rampant rumors of character issues, that's been a turnoff for this organization since the beginning. I would think they should get props for taking a chance on him & his aggressive personality.



your setting sights a little high, but hey that would be cool. Unless you want to burn another first on a DT it is safer to go the experienced route.



With a healthy roster the Texans are above average & I believe with Kubiak their record would reflect that despite the turnovers.



where do I apply? Bobby Beerlover Greir



The reason it worked in practice & not the game is that Chris Brown is a choke, its as simple as that. (I like the Golf analogy where if I could just take my pratice range swing to the course I could be dangerous) It was a brilliant call but a blunder to put the ball (game) in his hands with that play. Your right the coaching staff has to do a better job getting the ball in key situations to their playmakers. Not sure how you simulate practice to compare with actual game situations (maybe keep a tigher schedule, timing plays etc...) but the game plan doesn't transfer enough from practice to Sunday, there is a serious disconnect which has to be addressed.

BL

1. Agreed Apick shouldn't be forced. I think Haden is the only CB that merits a high 1st rd grade and he will probably be gone when the Texans pick. In the 2nd rd Ghee(my favorite),Lindley and Dowling are quality CB's that should be available in the 2nd rd. or Wilson in the 3rd can replace Duntas production at a fraction of the cost. Freeing up FA money to go out and sign Hampton or R.Brown.

2. Agreed Dont know what happened to Adibi either his intincts are poor,lacks intelligence (I didn't see this in college) or he got a case of the big head after his rookie season.

3. Disagee Brown is in the range of 12-20 starting LT's which is in the upper middle of the pack of LT's. Good news is Brown has the talent to improve on this ranking. Because he's new to the position and has a good work ethic.
I hope Kubes stops playing his LT on ST. The OL still needs to be fixed 8 yrs in and counting. This should be anther top priority in the draft and FA. Ihope they sign a veteran OL in FA to help with leadership and an upgrade in talent.

4. Agreed I love Slaton too but he doesn't have the size to be a 300 carry RB. He can still be a feature RB but he needs help. Kubes admitted that it was a mistake not signing Benson. They are paying for this mistake. BTW I was against signing Benson. Shows what I know.

5. I called for signing Pollard after he was cut at the end of preseason. I dont know why they waited 2 weeks into the season to sign him. it shouldn't take that long to do a background check especially with Gibbs as his DB coach in K.C. If that was the reason for the delay in signing the Texans organization is screwed up.

6. The Texans are going to be well under the cap espcially if they dont sign Dunta. They have plenty of room to sign 2 impact FA's my choice is R.Brown and Hampton. Yes I set my sights high, I want a winner. The Texans a 6th in rvenue in the NFL and have enough cap space to make it happen. The fans have done their part now it's time for McNair and Co. to step up the plate.
If you dont set your sights hgh medocrity will be the order of the day. Like the last 3 yrs.

7. It's unrealistic to ask a team to remin healthy for an entire season. Planning for the unexpected should be part of the job. Smithiak have failed in this respect. IMO

8. You and many others on this MB could do a better job identifying talent than Greir.

9. I wouldn't let C.Brown take out my trash. (He'd probably fumble it and make a mess that he would leave for me to clean up) Much less let him be a part of a play that had to be sucessful or miss the playoffs. That's on Kubes.

10. Part of the failure this year has been Kubes undying faith in the Browns. (Chris and Kris) If Kubes loses his job he can look at those two decisions as the main reason for his unemployment.

11. I want a new HC only if they can find somebody better. (Dont think McNair is going to pay for a top tier coach like Cowher/Gruden.(They wont be walking through the door at Reliant anytime soon. IMO) If this is the case they might as well let Kubes coach next year.