Pure conjecture. Do you have a clue where the Texans had those guys slotted?
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Keenum, is this another case of Chris Myers and KJax?
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Yes. So is anything else that can be "derived" from signing Ryan Fitzpatrick.
The Cowboys finished 1-15 Aikman's rookie yr. (0 talent)
Johnson was a better HC as a rookie than Kubiak was after 8 yrs. IMHO (Johnson was a GOAT type HC)
I think you're vastly overrating the talent on offense and the league caught up with Kubiak and the WC offense.
silvrhand
All Pro
Or the fact that we never threw a ball deeper than 20 yards when Matt was under the center..
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
vastly overrating?
HOFer WR who had a typical year = AJ..that 1989 cowboys team didn't have anything close to that.
very capable 2nd WR who had a solid rookie season = Nuk which = a young Micheal Irvin for that 1989 cowboys squad.
pro bowl LT & center = Albeit Brown had a down year, but there's nothing that shows Myers was awful. Wade Smith and Brooks/Jones were average & Brooks might've won the starting gig for this year as the RG based on his play last year. Newton was the only guy below average/terrible. - The cowboys had just drafted Stepnoski who wasn't ready....that's pretty much all they had at the time.
a solid back up TE who's likely gonna be a starter this year....1989 cowboys had nothing even close to that.
and for all the talk about how Tate was ineffective b/c he had a few broken ribs late in the season, his total production for the season was better than that 1989 cowboys top 2 rbs combined. that not only speaks to the talent at the rb position for the cowboys, it also speaks to how terrible that o-line for them was..again, the texans o-line wasn't nearly as bad.
Add in the fact that you have a qb friendly offense and no, i don't think i am overating this offense's capability.
There's also no way you can assert that Jimmy Johnson at that time was a better HC than Kubiak was 8 years in without the use of hindsight. Kubiak for all his warts took over a team just as bad record and talent wise in 2005 and won more games with a worse qb in his rookie HC campaign. The most you can say without using hindsight is that they were even.
The league may have caught on to Kubiak's tendencies but if Jimmy Johnson were coaching today he very well would've been fired after that 7-9 1990 campaign which would've been his 3rd straight losing season.
That Cowboys Oline was full of great players.
At Center they had the wily veteran Raferty to start the first eight games before gave way to the youngster Stepnoski.
At LT, there was Tunei entering his seventh year; this guy eventually became a two - time probowlers.
At RT, there was Kevin Gogan, a third year player who eventually became 3 - time probowler.
At G, there were Nate Newton (an eventual 8 - time probowler) and Crawford Ker, a veteran that they were comfortable with to trade away the #29 pick overall Wisniewski (who was good enough to make the probowl the following year and many more.)
They used one of those picks on Daryl Johnston, an eventual probowler at FB.
The running game featured more of Aikman than the Texans with their QBs.
If you separate the numbers of all the RBs, you will find that the backs did not run as well in games that Keenum played (basically because they were facing 5 out of 8 top ten defenses in the league.)
The Texans running game averaged at most ten yards per game for Keenum, but the Cowboys ST made it up for Aikman.
Their D limited opponents to about 3 points fewer.
Michael Irving averaged 20.4 yards per catch the year before, and just 14.5 with Aikman because Aikman's 3.8 AYA was just horrible.
He didn't improve that by much the following year at 5.0 which pales in comparison to Keenum's 6.8
Aikman threw for 11 TDS and 18 INTS in his second year behind a line that was even better.
And he took 39 sacks.
This was with the addition of Emmit Smith, Alonzo Highsmith at RBs, Alexander Wright at WR (overall #26 pick) and Jay Novacek at TE.
His defense also got better with even more big names.
What are the excuses for him in his second year?
At Center they had the wily veteran Raferty to start the first eight games before gave way to the youngster Stepnoski.
At LT, there was Tunei entering his seventh year; this guy eventually became a two - time probowlers.
At RT, there was Kevin Gogan, a third year player who eventually became 3 - time probowler.
At G, there were Nate Newton (an eventual 8 - time probowler) and Crawford Ker, a veteran that they were comfortable with to trade away the #29 pick overall Wisniewski (who was good enough to make the probowl the following year and many more.)
They used one of those picks on Daryl Johnston, an eventual probowler at FB.
The running game featured more of Aikman than the Texans with their QBs.
If you separate the numbers of all the RBs, you will find that the backs did not run as well in games that Keenum played (basically because they were facing 5 out of 8 top ten defenses in the league.)
The Texans running game averaged at most ten yards per game for Keenum, but the Cowboys ST made it up for Aikman.
Their D limited opponents to about 3 points fewer.
Michael Irving averaged 20.4 yards per catch the year before, and just 14.5 with Aikman because Aikman's 3.8 AYA was just horrible.
He didn't improve that by much the following year at 5.0 which pales in comparison to Keenum's 6.8
Aikman threw for 11 TDS and 18 INTS in his second year behind a line that was even better.
And he took 39 sacks.
This was with the addition of Emmit Smith, Alonzo Highsmith at RBs, Alexander Wright at WR (overall #26 pick) and Jay Novacek at TE.
His defense also got better with even more big names.
What are the excuses for him in his second year?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Using your own words, Aikman evetually had guys developed around him that turned out to be good to great.....Keenum already had a few guys around him that were pretty good to great.
That Cowboys team may have had the bullets in the chamber, but they were not 90's Cowboys as we came to know them....they were far from it and these aren't "excuses" for Aikman. He was bad...and if he'd been a smallish undrafted FA like Case is, he likely would've been relegated to back up status if not outright cut after his 1st year of starting let alone getting a 2nd year...but he wasn't. He was the antithesis of Keenum in every sense of the word from draft status to physical tools. So naturally, he got more of a chance to develop b/c he had more to work with.
Case's situation ironically is more comparable to the guy Aikman competed with in Dallas for the starting gig.....Steve Walsh. I suspect that it will follow the same course as well.
I actually agree with this.
As to your Johnson/Kubiak assertion in the previous post. It's true that you cant compare Johnson as a rookie to Kubiak as an 8 yr vet HC.
However both started off with terrible teams. Johnson built his team into a 3 time in 4 yrs SB champion and retired as a SB champion. Kubiak started 2-14 and finished 2-14 with a couple of wildcard wins in 8 yrs. So I feel comfortable in saying Johnson even while building his team was a better HC with a better vision for the future than Kubiak ever had and was a better HC as a rookie than Kubiak ever was.
I think you're missing the point.
The point is that Aikman was a young QB and most of them need time to develop.
Some people uses the fact the Keenum was 0- fer
Well then so was Aikman; actually, he was worse.
Whether they develop or not is a different matter.
The cowboys spent their next year first on Walsh in the supplementary draft because Walsh was Johnsons guy in Miami.
That was also a high price.
And the fact that Walsh won a game and had better numbers than Aikman playing on the same team further shows that numbers of wins alone don't mean anything.
Johnson only became convinced of Aikman in his second year and traded Walsh away.
Or maybe he was forced by Jerry.
On the other hand, Bledsoe, despite being a first round pick, basically lost his job to a 6th rounder.
It works both ways.
Just a matter of which guy becomes a better pro.
The point is that Aikman was a young QB and most of them need time to develop.
Some people uses the fact the Keenum was 0- fer
Well then so was Aikman; actually, he was worse.
Whether they develop or not is a different matter.
The cowboys spent their next year first on Walsh in the supplementary draft because Walsh was Johnsons guy in Miami.
That was also a high price.
And the fact that Walsh won a game and had better numbers than Aikman playing on the same team further shows that numbers of wins alone don't mean anything.
Johnson only became convinced of Aikman in his second year and traded Walsh away.
Or maybe he was forced by Jerry.
On the other hand, Bledsoe, despite being a first round pick, basically lost his job to a 6th rounder.
It works both ways.
Just a matter of which guy becomes a better pro.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I love ya 76, but i think it's you who's missing the point. Premium talents at all positions are afforded time to develop. Everyone else not in that realm has to get in where they fit in, seize on one of their few opportunities and make due with what they have to work with. I'm not saying its fair, i'm just saying that's how it is. There's a reason there aren't that many Tom Brady-like stories. & that's b/c as much as we like to downplay it, NFL scouts are right more often than not on prospects and their ceilings. As far as the texans & BoB go, you can't hang your hat on what Case did in those last 8 games and say "if he just had this corrected he could be good..". Premium talents usually don't need that...which is why they're coveted and given more leeway.
As for the Bledsoe thing, look Bledsoe had skins on the wall but he was just about past his prime by the time Brady came along and unseated him. If Brady was drafted 1-2 years after Bledsoe, Brady has 0 shot to unseat Bledsoe once he comes back from injury and the legend of Brady (at least in NE) is never written. Likewise, if Brady was the incumbent & put up the numbers he did his 1st & 2nd year starting for NE & then Bledsoe is drafted 1-2 years later, trust Brady's out the door. Premium talent is always given the benefit of the doubt; and as you know, Case isn't a premium talent.
Mr Tex,
Two guys on that offensive 5 were undrafted.
A third was dr as feed in the 8th round.
They went on to become multiple - time Probowler s and All-Pros.
The main thing is that they do need talent.
Keenum was not just any UDFA.
Some people thought he did not have enough of an arm, but that myth has been dispelled on the field.
Two guys on that offensive 5 were undrafted.
A third was dr as feed in the 8th round.
They went on to become multiple - time Probowler s and All-Pros.
The main thing is that they do need talent.
Keenum was not just any UDFA.
Some people thought he did not have enough of an arm, but that myth has been dispelled on the field.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
That is pretty impressive to say the least, that is one advantage i see in hiring an ex NCAA coach as a head coach. They have been there and seen it, you cant fully judge someone by their college stats.
I am hoping for the same results from BOB, thats why i like this Savage pick. I think he knows if he had played a full college career he would of been first round talent.
I like Savage potential.
We'll see what OB can do with it.
I'd rather not see the Texans draft another QB for a while.
Unless they tank again , LOL!
But Johnson only won one game as a rookie HC. Kubiak won 6 with as little talent as JJ had & a QB that eventually busted out of the league. Johnson had a HOF'r pulling the trigger, a HOF WR & no salary cap.
I think you're arguing different points. You're saying it doesn't happen a lot. 76 is saying if it happens this time.
Every team? How many teams gave Warner a shot? Far as I know, only one. He took it & kicked some butt. Had he went 0-8 that first season, the Rams would have moved on to 8th rounder Trent Green, maybe 6th rounder Marc Bulger, or some equally talented never was.
Too many talented QBs come into the league every year, with only 32 starting jobs, to "waste" too much time on someone who "most likely" won't amount to much.
I do agree with you though, if we're having to choose between Case & a first rounder, let's go with the first rounder. But since we're not... why not go with Case?
& as futile as it looked, with Mr. Keenum under center in the second half, I can't think of any reason for anyone to "root" for Fitzpatrick other than pure Case Hate.
Did you know that you could save 15% on insurance.....
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
ok.
so Keenum is on his way to the HOF again?
Just checkin'
so Keenum is on his way to the HOF again?
Just checkin'
PapaL
Loose Screw
silvrhand
All Pro
You could see the Aikman had the tools, Keenum was struggling and he couldn't find a way to score a single touchdown in some of those games. There have been a few QB's that have beat the odds, but if you really throw the odds out there that over the last 20 years each team has probably had 2-3 QB's on the roster, and the % of them that are great, it's a very low chance.
Case is pretty much done IMHO, let's move on right now I find it hard not to like a big QB with a ridiculous arm that can actually throw an out route with me having a heart attack. Tom is big, strong, and it will be interesting to see how quickly he can adapt.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
The ability to find the open receiver. He was a natural at scoping the field on any play and finding a guy that was open that he could throw the ball to. In those first two SB runs, Brady would constantly have games where he threw to like 7 to 9 guys. He had so many barely above average receivers back then. He managed to move the chains on 3rd downs a lot and performed well in the clutch.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Yeah, that's really the heart of it. It'd be one thing to root for our shiny new high round draft pick over Case Keenum. But you've got a collection of nobodies. May as well root for the guy who showed a little promise last year, while recognizing that you want the best man to win, regardless of who it is. A few posters on here just want Case to fail and go away, no matter who starts.
S,
Did you watch his game vs UNC and Fla. St.
Savage isn't ready.
He will need to learn to read defenses first.
All the things that everybody complaints about Keenum and Schaub was there.
Savage got sacked repeatedly on overload BJ kites or miss the free Blitzer often.
.
INT (including at least a pick six that I remember) resulted from his inability to read defenses.
How is he going to be ready for NFL defenses in his first year.
Give the guy some time to develop and hope that the light comes on in his head.
TK,
Warner went undrafted.
The Packers gave him a try out but cut him before TC.
He played 3 years in the Arena League before making it to the NFL.
FYI, Aikman didn't score a single touchdown in 6 of his games as a rookie, 5 games as a second year starter, & 4 games his third year.
I do not think that means what you think it means.
And what were the reasons for him to last until the sixth? May I ask?
According to a book quoted by Wikipedia, the Pats were considering him and Tim Rattay (who went in the 7th) before settling on him as a developmental project.
FYI, Aikman didn't score a single touchdown in 6 of his games as a rookie, 5 games as a second year starter, & 4 games his third year.
I do not think that means what you think it means.
Actually Aikman went scoreless in 6 games his first two years.
He went scoreless in 4 games the next 2 years.
He went scoreless in 3 games his 5th year.
4 games his 6th year
5 games his 7th year
7 games his 8th year.
On the other hand, Keenum did have a rushing TD in one of the games he didn't throw for one.
But what is the big deal with all the numbers?
I had liked for Hopkins to do what he was drafted for.
He could have helped Case by reeling in two TDS in the end zone the way he's supposed to.
And for a guy with such big hands that everybody says he can catch any ball near him, Hopkins dropped too many damn balls.
But he has the tools so he gets a pass.
Now you're catching on.
Ummm...don't you mean Constitutional Rebublicism? Democracy ALWAYS leads to either tyranny or anarchy. ALWAYS. Every time.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Well it does when the elections are no longer made by the people and instead the leaders are bought by corporations who see benefit in having them in office, all the while the richer are getting richer while the poor get poorer. Just so some smuck can build a house on some little island with money he sent to offshore accounts so he did not have to pay tax on it (which the government allows) that i eventually hope gets blown away while he vacations there by a Hurricane.
Yeah forget that last part..........
11% favorable rating and 90%+ re-election ratio. We are post-Constitution.
But did he kill his father? THAT is the question. Mr. Hernandez......................
Nitrofish
Let The Big Fish Eat!
Why root for Fitzpatrick? Because he's the Amish Rifle of course, and he had his own theme song in Buffalo. Would could be better than to have a nickname, AND a theme song?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icw1SBn_DcQ
All kidding aside I think many of us may be underestimating Fitzpatrick, and even though I am not thrilled that he is our potential starter, I am willing to see what he plays like before I make judgements. I have seen him play well in Buffalo, and decent games with the Titans, and we all know what he did to the Texans when he was with the Rams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ontS5NnoC0o (I recommend turning the sound off while watching, but you may be into it)
As far as Keenum goes, if he wins the job then great, but I think that will be incredibly hard to do when he is competing with QB's who actually have experience in a pro style offense, as Keenum always seems to revert to his spread offense mentality when pressured. Which is why the other QB's will always have the advantage over him, especially Fitzpatrick since he has been a starter in the league and has a great deal more experience in a pro style offense.
Stop taking sides and lets just let the OTA's and camps play out and see where we are. Whoever wins the job deserves it and deserves for everyone to be behind him not grumbling because their guy did not win the job.
Well yeah, there's that.
I've seen him plenty. I laughed when the Titans picked him up. I laughed when they cut him for Whitehurst. I stopped laughing when Rick signed him.
I agree. My post was pointed at those vehemently taking Fitzpatrick's side.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
My perception of the situation is that the Case love has started reaching VY Fanboi status and others are naturally gravitating toward supporting Fitzie because they are tired of hearing all of the apologetics and excuses for Case.
I doubt a single poster on here is rubbing one out over the possibility of The Amish Rifle being the Game 1 starter. No one.
PapaL
Loose Screw
QFT...
dc_txtech
All Pro
Hopkins dropping too many balls? This is the first I've heard of that. PFF has him rated as second best in the league last year behind only Larry Fitzgerald.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/03/24/sig-stats-drop-rate-wrs/
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
This guy gets it...Nobody's rooting for Fitzpatrick to start...we just know what Fitzpatrick is. More importantly he knows what he is and how he likely will fit into this team's long term plans...a stop gap guy for the short term...possibly an experienced back up long term. That same role seems to be earmarked for Case as well...but b/c he's got a few pretty stats, folks in here don't want to accept that.
They say if we could just do this to the team and get better here and there he could be better. & in doing this they don't realize that not only is this the same train of thought we unsuccessfully followed with Schaub, but also everything they think would help to improve Case's play would also help every other qb on the roster too. & when you put the pros and cons up for why each guy should start over the others, Case's resume can't compete with any of the other guys with experience.....& he only slots above Savage b/c of the little experience he does have.
I mean it's a very real possibility we still won't have any more of an idea of what he is after another 10 games b/c we're in rebuild mode with a new offense in which case the overall process has likely set his potential growth back another year....if he hasn't already peaked to begin with. I'd hate to trudge through another year watching him and this team getting rolled only to reach the end and still not know much more about Case's potential than we do now....Or worse, he puts up overall mediocore numbers and we delay seeing what Savage is or hold off drafting a potential franchise guy b/c we can "fix" everything else around him to make him better.
It's about time the team got them a stud and started looking for 1. Savage & a few guys coming out next year have that potential...Case doesn't.
NCTexan
Veteran
Shhhh. Facts don't belong here! This is the off-season and we're talking about Case Keenum man.
He doesn't deserve the chance he's getting because he is destined to be the best QB to ever play the game!
Guys, he's getting an even chance along with everyone else. What do you Keenum lovers want besides him being gifted the starting job? If he's as good as you guys think he'll win it.
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
QFT again...
And that should tell you a little something about "I watched every play, did you" superiority fanaticism. Watching film is great IF you don't have an agenda.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
QFT again
I look at our draft and what we currently have on our roster and get a tad bit optimistic....But, then I get to the QB position and the optimism is quickly neutered.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
So why even start him? He's a 31 year old back up. Unless we're expecting him to be the next Rich Gannon (which wouldn't be bad thing). But if we know he's not going to be anything special, I don't get why we want to put him out there. He is what he is & frankly that is not good enough. We know it's not good enough.
Well, like you said, the 31 year old is what he is. A back up. I like Tj, but the last game I saw him really play, he was tossing the ball up for Ed Reed to go get it. Last year's game against St. Louis, pretty much ended the same way. If OB can teach him to make better decisions, it would make more sense to me to start Tj.
Keenum, the only problem I've got with him is not knowing the situation & knowing when he can/should extend a play & when he can/should throw it away, or take a sack. I don't recall ever thinking, "Why did he throw that there?"
& we definitely won't know if Fitzpatrick is the starter. Personally, I don't care if it's Tj or Case.
Not a rebuild.
Definitely won't know anything more about his potential if he's on the bench.
Kinda like Stafford, Ryan, Bradford, Newton, Flacco, Rivers.... everybody but Brady, Peyton, & obviously Luck? It's a team game, whether Case is starting or not.
See... I think "people" want Fitzpatrick to start because he is not a threat to our "future" QB. Whether we're winning or not, we're going to continue to look for a "future" QB.
If Case is winning, not so much. & regardless how well Case plays, that' just not good enough. If he sucks, fine, we'll toss him & move on. But if we're 10-6 and 1 & done in the play offs... we're going to pass on a first round QB. & some people are just not good with that.
It's like some people think we'd be better off as a franchise if we miss the play offs in 2014 & draft a QB than if Case Keenum (or Tj Yates for that matter) gets us to the AFC Championship game.
First of, let me apologize to Mr. Hopkins for saying that he dropped a few too many balls that I would have liked (just like I had apologized to Antonio Smith before. )
Once in a while I can get frustrated and say something before I really verify all the infos.
In this case, on the drops.
Let me rephrase that.
It is never my style to purposely aggravate people.
It is never my style to try to feel superior; I've professed many times that I don't have a superiority complex nor an inferiority complex.
I feel peace within myself for the most part that when I screw up, I will admit it.
(Where on the scale, it's not for for me to judge. I try not to judge people.)
On the other hand, I'm always interested in putting things out there so that everybody can ask questions and have their own says.
This is how I think we learn from each other, by exchanging ideas.
So what that I watched a play a hundred times or more when some may only watch it ten times.
Did I ever claim that my conclusion on a particular play is gospel?
But it is a fact that I did watch plays a lot of time.
I like to make an effort to discuss about each play so that each person can come to their own conclusion on that particular play.
For some, they might not need to watch a play a hundred times.
There are plenty of people who are smarter than I.
I welcome their input on any play so I may learn something or see a different view point.
Once in a while I can get frustrated and say something before I really verify all the infos.
In this case, on the drops.
Let me rephrase that.
It is never my style to purposely aggravate people.
It is never my style to try to feel superior; I've professed many times that I don't have a superiority complex nor an inferiority complex.
I feel peace within myself for the most part that when I screw up, I will admit it.
(Where on the scale, it's not for for me to judge. I try not to judge people.)
On the other hand, I'm always interested in putting things out there so that everybody can ask questions and have their own says.
This is how I think we learn from each other, by exchanging ideas.
So what that I watched a play a hundred times or more when some may only watch it ten times.
Did I ever claim that my conclusion on a particular play is gospel?
But it is a fact that I did watch plays a lot of time.
I like to make an effort to discuss about each play so that each person can come to their own conclusion on that particular play.
For some, they might not need to watch a play a hundred times.
There are plenty of people who are smarter than I.
I welcome their input on any play so I may learn something or see a different view point.