Keenum In The 5th Or 6th Round?

[Lucky]

I don't think Green Bay is a good offense for him personally. They ask for their QB's to drive the ball down the field and I think that would expose his lack of arm strength more than anything.

Aaron Rodgers drives the ball down the field, but Matt Flynn has a very average arm. He runs that offense almost as well. At its roots, Green Bay still runs a West Coast offense based on timing. If Keenum gets the ball out on time, he's fine.

The combine didn't even expose what I believe to be Keenum's biggest weakness. I think he has real trouble with pressure up the middle and is too quick to bring the ball down rather than slide in the pocket. It probably has a lot to do with his size and inability to see over the rush. That's another reason why I think he should go to a team that moves the pocket around. Like the Packers do.

 

[76Texan]

In his last collegiate game, against Penn St., Keenum "struggled" to the tune of 532 yards in net passing whie facing nearly similar pressure (27 times as I had mentioned earlier.)
And by pressure, I mean that the QB has to get the ball out of his hand in less than 2-3/4 of a second or the pass rush will be on top of him
That's the maximum time, if the QB holds the ball longer than that, then it's entirely his fault.
Obviously, there were times pressure got there (or almost got there) sooner that that (as little as just a tad more than one sec.)

I'll take that struggling QB any day of the year.

 

[76Texan]

Aaron Rodgers drives the ball down the field, but Matt Flynn has a very average arm. He runs that offense almost as well. At its roots, Green Bay still runs a West Coast offense based on timing. If Keenum gets the ball out on time, he's fine.

The combine didn't even expose what I believe to be Keenum's biggest weakness. I think he has real trouble with pressure up the middle and is too quick to bring the ball down rather than slide in the pocket. It probably has a lot to do with his size and inability to see over the rush. That's another reason why I think he should go to a team that moves the pocket around. Like the Packers do.

I have to disagree with this.

Luck and RG III are the two who didn't do well in this area last year.

 

[Texn4life]

In his last collegiate game, against Penn St., Keenum "struggled" to the tune of 532 yards in net passing whie facing nearly similar pressure (27 times as I had mentioned earlier.)
And by pressure, I mean that the QB has to get the ball out of his hand in less than 2-3/4 of a second or the pass rush will be on top of him
That's the maximum time, if the QB holds the ball longer than that, then it's entirely his fault.
Obviously, there were times pressure got there (or almost got there) sooner that that (as little as just a tad more than one sec.)

I'll take that struggling QB any day of the year.

And in the biggest game of his life against a USM team who lost to a pitiful UAB. A game that if its won could have made him a Heisman finalist and led his team to a BCS game he went 41/67 with 2 TD and 2 INT outplayed by Austin Davis. See I can play this game too.

Look, I like the kid but I don't ignore facts. He's going to have the same problem that the Texas Tech QB's have had for years.

 

[Texn4life]

Aaron Rodgers drives the ball down the field, but Matt Flynn has a very average arm. He runs that offense almost as well. At its roots, Green Bay still runs a West Coast offense based on timing. If Keenum gets the ball out on time, he's fine.

The combine didn't even expose what I believe to be Keenum's biggest weakness. I think he has real trouble with pressure up the middle and is too quick to bring the ball down rather than slide in the pocket. It probably has a lot to do with his size and inability to see over the rush. That's another reason why I think he should go to a team that moves the pocket around. Like the Packers do.

Matt Flynn has a stronger arm than I think a lot of people give him credit for. Its not a major strength of his, but I don't think its a weakness either. They're still able to run a lot of the same things in their offense they run with Rodgers.

As for Keenum's pocket presence I'm not sure I agree with that. He seems to have much better pocket presence than a lot of QB's who run a shotgun spread. Blaine Gabbert is someone I said would struggle coming out of UM and that's exactly what happened. His pocket presence is terrible. Keenum is actually better in the pocket than Kolb was as this point in their UH careers in my opinion. Kolb did a lot of what Gabbert did in college which is see "ghost" pressure and immediately run backwards out of the pocket and to their right taking their receivers out of the play. Keenum tends to make some decent plays at time after facing pressure.

 

[Texn4life]

I just went back to check my own thread (breaking down of the S. Miss game, in this same subforum - you probably missed it.)

Keenum did not attempt any pass longer than 29 yards due to:
- Coverage scheme taking Edwards and any deep route (that I can see from the TV screen)
- Constant pressure with either 3 or 4 man pass rush.

There are a few highlights out there showing Keenum completed nice passes downfield on the run.
I have a bunch of highlights bookmarked, but I don't think I want to spend the time digging for throws on the run.

If you want to, I can provide all the link and you can look for yourself.

No need...... I watched the game and if you want to go back and watch the game yourself you'll see exactly what I talked about. The majority of his yards came throwing with the wind. He struggled throwing against the wind and USM knew that he may face some problems because he struggled at times against the wind the previous game against Tulsa. Fedora gave a radio interview right after the game where he went into detail about this.

Also I can show you plenty of throws where he was terrible throwing on the run. Go back and watch the ECU game his junior year and and the following game against Air Force. They picked him off I think about 6 times during those games forcing him into mistakes. A few of those were on the run.

 

[steelbtexan]

Keenum=McCoy IMHO

 

[76Texan]

And in the biggest game of his life against a USM team who lost to a pitiful UAB. A game that if its won could have made him a Heisman finalist and led his team to a BCS game he went 41/67 with 2 TD and 2 INT outplayed by Austin Davis. See I can play this game too.

Look, I like the kid but I don't ignore facts. He's going to have the same problem that the Texas Tech QB's have had for years.

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89651

This is the thread where I broke down the game.
Tell me on which play you think Keenum should have or could have done better and I'll be glad to upload some screen shots to photobucket.com

 

[76Texan]

No need...... I watched the game and if you want to go back and watch the game yourself you'll see exactly what I talked about. The majority of his yards came throwing with the wind. He struggled throwing against the wind and USM knew that he may face some problems because he struggled at times against the wind the previous game against Tulsa. Fedora gave a radio interview right after the game where he went into detail about this.

Also I can show you plenty of throws where he was terrible throwing on the run. Go back and watch the ECU game his junior year and and the following game against Air Force. They picked him off I think about 6 times during those games forcing him into mistakes. A few of those were on the run.

How does a QB struggle when he never even attempt such passes?
The Golden Eagles dropped 7-8 men back into coverage, taking away the deep throws.
Keenum only attempted a 29 yd pass that a receiver dropped (he could have ran for a TD- I believe it was Carrier.)

And why would we want to go back 3 years ago to evaluate a QB?

 

[Texn4life]

Correction I went back and he threw 9 INT's his full junior season the last 2 games against ECU and Air Force. Most of those were on the run. I'll check out your game breakdown tomorrow.

 

[Texn4life]

How does a QB struggle when he never even attempt such passes?
The Golden Eagles dropped 7-8 men back into coverage, taking away the deep throws.
Keenum only attempted a 29 yd pass that a receiver dropped (he could have ran for a TD- I believe it was Carrier.)

I remember that play and yes it would've been a TD. But your breakdown doesn't include video or screen shots. If that's the case then I'll get a copy of the game and watch it again myself. Teams dropped 7-8 men into coverage against UH all year. You really think that's the first time they've seen that this year? lol Tulsa did the same thing against them the previous game and they had a better defense statistically. The reason they weren't successful against USM was because they were unable to sustain drives against the wind. Case threw some terrible balls against the wind that he normally makes in good weather. I'll get a copy of the game and break it down based on that.

 

[76Texan]

No need...... I watched the game and if you want to go back and watch the game yourself you'll see exactly what I talked about. The majority of his yards came throwing with the wind. He struggled throwing against the wind and USM knew that he may face some problems because he struggled at times against the wind the previous game against Tulsa. Fedora gave a radio interview right after the game where he went into detail about this.

Keenum struggled so much against Tulsa, he netted 457 yards with 5 TDs and no INT.

I'm flabbergasted as to how you come up with these ideas.
I did watch the Tulsa game, but I will go back and watch all those 13 incompletions to see exactly where he "struggled".

I must have missed them and only saw the 33 completions.

 

[76Texan]

I remember that play and yes it would've been a TD. But your breakdown doesn't include video or screen shots. If that's the case then I'll get a copy of the game and watch it again myself. Teams dropped 7-8 men into coverage against UH all year. You really think that's the first time they've seen that this year? lol Tulsa did the same thing against them the previous game and they had a better defense statistically. The reason they weren't successful against USM was because they were unable to sustain drives against the wind. Case threw some terrible balls against the wind that he normally makes in good weather. I'll get a copy of the game and break it down based on that.

Please do, I'm all ears.

Teams varied their coverage.
Sometimes, like Rice, they could show cover 2 and tried to bring a safety down into the box or to play the slot and got burned.
Sometimes they tried a 5 or 6-man blitz and got burned.

S. Miss were able to bring pressure all game long with just 4 (and sometimes 3).

 

[Texn4life]

1st QTR against the wind: 24 plays for 64 yards.
3rd QTR against the wind: 23 plays for 97 yards.

Thats 47 plays for 161 yards for 3.4 yards a play

2nd QTR with the wind: 19 plays for 135 yards.
4th QTR with the wind: 32 plays for 135 yards.

Thats 51 plays for 270 yards for 5.2 yards a play


That 1st QTR is what killed them. Like I said I'll go back and watch the game again and get a QTR breakdown for Case's stats per quarter, but he struggled throwing against the wind plain and simple.

 

[76Texan]

1st QTR against the wind: 24 plays for 64 yards.
3rd QTR against the wind: 23 plays for 97 yards.

Thats 47 plays for 161 yards for 3.4 yards a play

2nd QTR with the wind: 19 plays for 135 yards.
4th QTR with the wind: 32 plays for 135 yards.

Thats 51 plays for 270 yards for 5.2 yards a play


That 1st QTR is what killed them. Like I said I'll go back and watch the game again and get a QTR breakdown for Case's stats per quarter, but he struggled throwing against the wind plain and simple.

So the wind caused receivers to drop passes?
So the wind caused a safety to hold a receiver (slighlty and got away with it)?
So the wind forced Keenum to throw the ball away?
And the wind shut down the RBs in the ground game too?

 

[Texn4life]

Keenum struggled so much against Tulsa, he netted 457 yards with 5 TDs and no INT.

I'm flabbergasted as to how you come up with these ideas.
I did watch the Tulsa game, but I will go back and watch all those 13 incompletions to see exactly where he "struggled".

I must have missed them and only saw the 33 completions.

Against the wind...... You do realize the type of offense that UH runs correct? A lot of those yards against Tulsa came out of the short passing game and screen game. He struggled throwing the ball against the wind in both games. I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth with you because I remember the games clearly. They choked down their offense much of that Tulsa game throwing against the wind to get Case a lot of short easy passes and let guys run with it. At times when he tried to force the ball through the wind he struggled with that. But your little precious stats wouldn't tell you that. Get out of here with that crap. I remember both games clearly and that was a point of emphasis being told even by the announcers of those games.

 

[Texn4life]

So the wind caused receivers to drop passes?
So the wind caused a safety to hold a receiver (slighlty and got away with it)?
So the wind forced Keenum to throw the ball away?

Dude, if you think that was the UH offense that they normally run in the QTRS that game then I don't know what to tell you. They completely changed their whole passing game and play calling because of the wind factor. You can ignore that if you want, but I know better having seen them play a bunch over the years. But either way, I'm done with you for now. People who are so closed minded make my head hurt.

 

[76Texan]

Dude, if you think that was the UH offense that they normally run in the QTRS that game then I don't know what to tell you. They completely changed their whole passing game and play calling because of the wind factor. You can ignore that if you want, but I know better having seen them play a bunch over the years. But either way, I'm done with you for now. People who are so closed minded make my head hurt.

Go back and show me a receiver open downfield and tell me I'm close-minded.
Go back and watch the game and tell me the pressure wasn't there.

 

[Texn4life]

Go back and show me a receiver open downfield and tell me I'm close-minded.
Go back and watch the game and tell me the pressure wasn't there.

Like I said I'll get to it tomorrow. Its past midnight. Unlike some people I do have a life so watching film isn't what I do for a living. I just get it right the first time.

 

[76Texan]

And Keenum struggled so much with the wind (on top of the rain) to put up a record-setting day against the Rice Owls!

 

[Texn4life]

And Keenum struggled so much with the wind (on top of the rain) to put up a record-setting day against the Rice Owls!

That might be a good idea if you think Keenum did that against the wind and rain. The weather settled down allowing him to have a record day. He was turning the ball over to Rice giving them an easy touchdown while it was so bad so your smilie might be pretty accurate of what you should do if you think the weather was bad that entire game. P.S. I was there for the record.

 

[Texn4life]

Houston QB #7 Case Keenum, who struggled with the windy conditions of the Armed Forces Bowl in 2010 (TCU’s Amon Carter Stadium), doesn’t look imposing versus these conditions in the first quarter.

That was apparent Sunday at the Scouting Combine. One of the big knocks on Keenum is his lack of arm strength, which came into full focus during drills. His passes lacked zip and were too slow getting to receivers.

NFL teams understand the timing between quarterbacks and receivers is challenge because of a lack familiarity at the Combine, but that was far from Keenum’s biggest issue. Too often his passes would dip before getting to the target. Receivers often had to slow up and wait for the ball.

While we believe arm strength is the most overrated piece of the quarterback evaluation process, it's necessary to be at a minimum level. Keenum’s lack of zip affected his accuracy, which is a big issue.

The pocket presence, poise and good decision-making Keenum displayed at Houston aren't enough for him to overcome his size (just under 6-1), lack of arm strength and accuracy.

His performance Sunday showed that while Keenum may find a way to stick in the NFL as a backup, teams shouldn't spend a draft pick to get him.

http://www.draftnasty.com/football/articles/c-usa-championship-davis-law-spoil-houston-s-bcs-dreams/

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-02-26/case-keenum-disappoints-in-throwing-drills

 

[76Texan]

"I've seen Case throw in person and I've been impressed," said Chris Mortensen, an NFL analyst for ESPN.

Looking more into the offensive system is needed to make an accurate evaluation, Mortensen added.

"We may think we know what the system was, but let's learn it a little better," Mortensen said. "What were his reads? What were the advantages he gave you in the system?"

Keenum had the ability to check out of plays from the shotgun formation at Houston.

"What was on my shoulders at Houston, I can guarantee was a lot more than college offenses across the nation," he said. "I had the ability to check to any route I wanted to on any play — run or pass. I probably checked over half of the runs and a lot of the pass plays were checks, as well. I was just getting on the same page with the coaches and seeing the defense through their eyes."

Keenum interviewed with Atlanta, Chicago, Denver and San Diego, among other unconfirmed teams (at least ten) during his four-day stay at the combine.

...

Keenum will join Jon Gruden on Tue April 17 at his annual ESPN QB Camp (a series in which Gruden goes through diifferent aspects of the game with 10 QBs.)

 

[76Texan]

No need...... I watched the game and if you want to go back and watch the game yourself you'll see exactly what I talked about. The majority of his yards came throwing with the wind. He struggled throwing against the wind and USM knew that he may face some problems because he struggled at times against the wind the previous game against Tulsa. Fedora gave a radio interview right after the game where he went into detail about this.

Also I can show you plenty of throws where he was terrible throwing on the run. Go back and watch the ECU game his junior year and and the following game against Air Force. They picked him off I think about 6 times during those games forcing him into mistakes. A few of those were on the run.

Keenum struggled so much against Tulsa, he netted 457 yards with 5 TDs and no INT.

I'm flabbergasted as to how you come up with these ideas.
I did watch the Tulsa game, but I will go back and watch all those 13 incompletions to see exactly where he "struggled".

I must have missed them and only saw the 33 completions.

I did go back to review the Tulsa game, and will bring up the 13 incompletions soon.

The claim that Keenum struggled against the wind is bogus at best!

 

[thunderkyss]

Keenum was never known to have a big arm, but he can throw about as far as Yates (and a little farther than Schaub), roughly 50 yards (from the LOS - which as about 60 in the air.)

To me, arm strength is important, when the play breaks down. First, he's got to have enough arm strength that when he throws the ball off his back foot, or with both feet off the ground, or where ever his feet may be while he's adlibing & in a fraction of a second, he decides to stop & throw the ball. QBs aren't supposed to do those things, throw off their back foot, push it, or whatever, but you've seen them do it. All of them. At one time or another, the situation is going to arrive & he's going to have to throw the ball under less than perfect conditions.

Another thing, when the play breaks down. Usually when the QB approaches the LOS, the defense breaks to him, leaving big gaps on the back side of the field. It's nice to have a QB who can make them pay for that mistake. A big arm, that doesn't require a lot of air under the ball to travel great distances, gets the ball down field without giving the DBs time to readjust & get into position.

A big arm is not necessary to be successful in the NFL, but it's nice. It's also more about technique, throwing motion, body rotation etc... than it is about muscle strength.

 

[thunderkyss]

Keenum=McCoy IMHO

Maybe I'm a homer (even though I don't follow UT) but I still like McCoy.

I understand you don't "pass" on a player like RGIII, I also don't think you should sell out to get that talent. I wouldn't trade up if I were Cleveland to get him.

They've got more issues than QB. I think they should stay put & pick Blackmon, Richardson, Coples or DeCastro. I think it's imperative to get some skill players around McCoy.

 

[Rey]

The main thing that watching game film in slow mo is good for is seeing technique. Where your feet where in relation to one another, where your hands were...ect....

All of this frame by frame stuff and writing your own narrative of what a player saw and was thinking is just not realistic.

You can pause the tape in certain spots and say "what were you thinking when you saw this right here or right there", but watching film frame by frame or in slow mo just leaves room for you to write your own narrative.

 

[76Texan]

The main thing that watching game film in slow mo is good for is seeing technique. Where your feet where in relation to one another, where your hands were...ect....

All of this frame by frame stuff and writing your own narrative of what a player saw and was thinking is just not realistic.

You can pause the tape in certain spots and say "what were you thinking when you saw this right here or right there", but watching film frame by frame or in slow mo just leaves room for you to write your own narrative.

So your point is that Keenum found the open receiver just by being lucky?

What is it that you think that Keenum can't do that won't make him become an NFL starter?

 

[76Texan]

The main thing that watching game film in slow mo is good for is seeing technique. Where your feet where in relation to one another, where your hands were...ect....

All of this frame by frame stuff and writing your own narrative of what a player saw and was thinking is just not realistic.

You can pause the tape in certain spots and say "what were you thinking when you saw this right here or right there", but watching film frame by frame or in slow mo just leaves room for you to write your own narrative.

Like when I said I had doubt about Wright as a first rounder, I cited that I'm not sure he's qualified as a speedster. And so far, there's still no official source that can prove he's a speedster (running the 40 in 4.35-4.39 for an average of 4.37 or less). I have certain criteria and I provide it (them); what are yours?

 

[76Texan]

To me, arm strength is important, when the play breaks down. First, he's got to have enough arm strength that when he throws the ball off his back foot, or with both feet off the ground, or where ever his feet may be while he's adlibing & in a fraction of a second, he decides to stop & throw the ball. QBs aren't supposed to do those things, throw off their back foot, push it, or whatever, but you've seen them do it. All of them. At one time or another, the situation is going to arrive & he's going to have to throw the ball under less than perfect conditions.

Another thing, when the play breaks down. Usually when the QB approaches the LOS, the defense breaks to him, leaving big gaps on the back side of the field. It's nice to have a QB who can make them pay for that mistake. A big arm, that doesn't require a lot of air under the ball to travel great distances, gets the ball down field without giving the DBs time to readjust & get into position.

A big arm is not necessary to be successful in the NFL, but it's nice. It's also more about technique, throwing motion, body rotation etc... than it is about muscle strength.

I'm not sure I followed you, TK.
In the Film break down thread, I've shown plays where Keenum can throw the ball down the side line.

There were fly route, post-corner route, wheel route, you name it.
And they are all the equivalent or better than what Schaubie had shown so far as a veteran.

And there were also throws across the body, throws where he stepped left and throw right (where his feet were basically parallel with the LOS instead of perpendicular as in a normal throw.)

If those don't show arm strength, what does?

 

[thunderkyss]

I'm not sure I followed you, TK.
In the Film break down thread, I've shown plays where Keenum can throw the ball down the side line.

There were fly route, post-corner route, wheel route, you name it.
And they are all the equivalent or better than what Schaubie had shown so far as a veteran.

And there were also throws across the body, throws where he stepped left and throw right (where his feet were basically parallel with the LOS instead of perpendicular as in a normal throw.)

If those don't show arm strength, what does?

I didn't comment on Keenum's arm strength.