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Joe Paterno/Penn State

JustBonee

Veteran
Just how low can they go? Once a powerhouse; now a joke ... it is just plain sad and pathetic at Penn State these days. Joe Paterno has long since lost his effectiveness as a coach. No one has the heart to push him out. And I guess he is too old and senile to read and hear what they are saying about him. I wonder how long this will go on before someone steps up and begins to salvage the school's football program.

http://www.cumberlink.com/PSUfootball/04/game07/1024_how_low.php
 
That is true Sassy but he earned the schools patience. He won National Championships in 4 separate decades. I think he should be able to coach there as long as he wants. There aren't many coaches I would say that about.

However, I would also have people in the background encouraging him to move on. There is no way he should be fired. He has earned the right to go out on his own terms.
 
SassyTexan said:
Sadly, that seems to be the way it is playing out, to the detriment of the school's best interests.

Detrimental in the short-run for sure, but the school likely would never have made it anywhere without Joe Pa though. I hope he retires soon but I don't want to see a Tom Landry type exit again (and I HATE the Cowboys).
 
vs Akron - 98,866 in attendance
vs Central Florida - 101,715 in attendance
vs Purdue - 108,183 in attendance
vs Iowa - 108,062 in attendance

That's an average of 104,206 for their first 4 home games this season.

Joe Pa ain't going anywhere until he decides. School could care less about what the record says. Until their attendance (and pockets) start to decline, he'll be on the sidelines.
 
I believe Joe also has a spectacular record of charitable giving to the University. I think he gave a million $ to the library, although I don't have a link. Showing that loyalty is a two-way street isn't necessarily against the Universities best interests.

I don't know much about the situation at Penn State, but perhaps somethings, including how we treat seniors, are more important that football.
 
Death Penalty?

If I'm being truly honest, I don't think they should even be allowed to have a football program.

I don't think the SMU infractions are anything even remotely close to this and they got absolutely hammered.

At the very least Paterno and Sandusky should have every single achievement removed from their names and deleted from history. Take away all Penn St's wins and championships that occurred after the first known rape.
 
If I'm being truly honest, I don't think they should even be allowed to have a football program.

I don't think the SMU infractions are anything even remotely close to this and they got absolutely hammered.

At the very least Paterno and Sandusky should have every single achievement removed from their names and deleted from history. Take away all Penn St's wins and championships that occurred after the first known rape.

Penn State is too big to be given harsh sanctions by the NCAA. SMU on the other hand, not so much. SMU was the perfect school to be punished so severely by the NCAA. SMU would be the example of what would happen if you broke the rules.
 
If I'm being truly honest, I don't think they should even be allowed to have a football program.

I don't think the SMU infractions are anything even remotely close to this and they got absolutely hammered.

At the very least Paterno and Sandusky should have every single achievement removed from their names and deleted from history. Take away all Penn St's wins and championships that occurred after the first known rape.

Maybe I'm just not seeing what that accomplishes. I'm all for throwing the book at Sandusky, Paterno, and whoever else knew what was going on of course. Give them all the boot, charge them criminally, erase them from the program's history, etc. But taking away a place for kids to earn scholarships and compete, kids who obviously did nothing wrong, and for the student body who did nothing wrong there either just seems too far. Even for something as terrible as this, especially when this is such an isolated/unique incident. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
 
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Penn State is too big to be given harsh sanctions by the NCAA. SMU on the other hand, not so much. SMU was the perfect school to be punished so severely by the NCAA. SMU would be the example of what would happen if you broke the rules.

The Trojans got whacked pretty bad, the U as well in recent years, even Ohio St. All for far lesser crimes

The NCAA cares only when it might effect the outcome of games or lead to point shaving. Ole Miss will probably get the hammer after the money stuff came out during the draft. Compare with all the horrible **** that Baylor is doing right now, where you don't hear a whiff of NCAA investigation. Or FSU and the whole rape cover-up for Winston.

Maybe I'm just not seeing what that accomplishes. I'm all for throwing the book at Sandusky, Paterno, and whoever else knew what was going on of course. Give them all the boot, charge them criminally, erase them from the program's history, etc. But taking away a place for kids to earn scholarships and compete, kids who obviously did nothing wrong, and for the student body who did nothing wrong there either just seems too far. Even for something as terrible as this, especially when this is such an isolated/unique incident. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I think it depends if the whole school is complicit, or just everyone below the athletic director. If the university knew about it, then **** 'em. It also depends if the NCAA wants to make an example out of a school as a warning.
 
I think it depends if the whole school is complicit, or just everyone below the athletic director. If the university knew about it, then **** 'em. It also depends if the NCAA wants to make an example out of a school as a warning.

I agree with throwing out everyone who knew. Great. But keep the institution and those that are innocent/currently there and rebuild.

I don't get erasing the program from the map entirely. Because make an example for what? Don't rape kids and hide the rapists? People already know that. I doubt punishment is going through the minds of anyone who would do so. They're a little beyond the reason of cause and effect of even a punishment as harsh as the death penalty. You're just telling a bunch of innocent people to take a hike, and for what ultimately?

Maybe I'm missing something here.
 
I agree with throwing out everyone who knew. Great. But keep the institution and those that are innocent/currently there and rebuild.

I don't get erasing the program from the map entirely. Because make an example for what? Don't rape kids and hide the rapists? People already know that. I doubt punishment is going through the minds of anyone who would do so. They're a little beyond the reason of cause and effect of even a punishment as harsh as the death penalty. You're just telling a bunch of innocent people to take a hike, and for what ultimately?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

If you want it to be a deterrent, then you crush the offending university so no other colleges makes the same mistake in hiring scum bags. Penn State got rich and gained much prestige because of JoPa, plenty of universities would do a lot of shady **** to get that. Probably not child rape, but covering up the rape of adults is common (see Baylor and FSU). I don't really agree with it, but I see the logic of hammering PSU.
 
If you want it to be a deterrent, then you crush the offending university so no other colleges makes the same mistake in hiring scum bags. Penn State got rich and gained much prestige because of JoPa, plenty of universities would do a lot of shady **** to get that. Probably not child rape, but covering up the rape of adults is common (see Baylor and FSU). I don't really agree with it, but I see the logic of hammering PSU.

Maybe I'm not seeing where 'the university' is some entity that needs punishment or that will be an example. What is left after the complicit people are punished, booted, erased, etc of 'the university' that should face crushing? Anyone looking to get rich in hiring scumbags in the future are simply people too who should stand to learn from the punishment these people should face. Is there no differentiation between the offending people and the university?
 
Maybe I'm just not seeing what that accomplishes. I'm all for throwing the book at Sandusky, Paterno, and whoever else knew what was going on of course. Give them all the boot, charge them criminally, erase them from the program's history, etc. But taking away a place for kids to earn scholarships and compete, kids who obviously did nothing wrong, and for the student body who did nothing wrong there either just seems too far. Even for something as terrible as this, especially when this is such an isolated/unique incident. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Any kid that could get a scholarship at Penn St would have numerous other options at their disposal. They would still get a chance to play somewhere. You're not taking anything away from anybody there.

And I do see the student body as complicit. Maybe not the current students but definitely the alumni and administration. They deserve punishment. Penn St is a unique case. I can't think of any occurrence similar to this happening within an athletic program. Baylor is trending that way and if Briles is not held accountable then that school should suffer the same fate. The people at Baylor should be asking questions, not trying to hide answers. And if they don't make an effort soon then I would throw the book at them too. There is plenty of football to go around for everyone, and if you abuse the privilege at the expense of ruining other people's lives then you deserve to be held accountable. And that goes beyond just the actual football team itself.

Penn St's students and administrators worshipped Paterno as a god for decades. Their fan base was a cult, and anyone who has spent time around Penn St people immediately knows what I'm taking about. Paterno was allowed more power and influence than any coach in history. He had more power than his bosses. He had more power than the president of the university. Hell, he had more power at Penn St than the governor of the state.

And how did that happen? Everyone affiliated with the university let his influence and power grow unchecked over decades. As long as he continued to bring dollars and wins to the university they couldn't care less what went on in his program. Plus, if anything did happen, he didn't even have to report it to anyone, because nobody could do anything about it that he didn't want done anyway.

That is the definition of a lack of institutional control. And since it happened in the football program it is under the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

Take away their football program. If they lose money or students because of that I don't care. They are the ones that allowed Paterno to have the type of power that he eventually abused.
 
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Or how about this? Let them keep their football program. But kick them out of the BIG and don't let them join any other conference. They can still schedule whoever they want but they cannot collect any conference money or be eligible for any postseason play for 35 years, since that is how long they allowed their head coach to hide child rape so that their football team could be successful.
 
This may be the worst case of lack of instutional control in NCAA history, but the death penalty was not on the table. Haves (Pennis St. vs Have Nots Poor SMU.) Double standard much?

I mean little boys were getting raped and Joe Pa let it happen.
 
They should have burned that program to the ground when they had the chance. As usual, the NCAA got it wrong.

NCAA world,

Pennis St -Child Rape = Slap on wrist

SMU- giving poor kids $$$$ = Death penalty

Baylor wiil and probably should suffer a similar fate as SMU, although their crimes more closely resemble the Pennis St crimes.
 
This may be the worst case of lack of instutional control in NCAA history, but the death penalty was not on the table. Haves (Pennis St. vs Have Nots Poor SMU.) Double standard much?

I mean little boys were getting raped and Joe Pa let it happen.

Not only was the death penalty not on the table, the NCAA has even retroactively reduced the sanctions since they were first levied. It's preposterous.
 
NCAA world,

Pennis St -Child Rape = Slap on wrist

SMU- giving poor kids $$$$ = Death penalty

Baylor wiil and probably should suffer a similar fate as SMU, although their crimes more closely resemble the Pennis St crimes.

Baylor has a very public rape case going on and the NCAA hasn't said a word.

Jim Harbaugh tries to recruit a kid from Florida though and the NCAA has 2 meetings in 5 days and bans all satellite camps.

Funny how that works.
 
Disgusting details come out in court.

Something stinks like Joe Pa letting a childs butthole getting abused.

This program should've been burned to the ground.

With that said, Franklin is doing his best to ruin what's left of that program. Wonder what BOB thinks about Pennis St and the people there?
 
Baylor has a very public rape case going on and the NCAA hasn't said a word.

Jim Harbaugh tries to recruit a kid from Florida though and the NCAA has 2 meetings in 5 days and bans all satellite camps.

Funny how that works.

F'n hypocrites
 
Not only was the death penalty not on the table, the NCAA has even retroactively reduced the sanctions since they were first levied. It's preposterous.

Do the people that run the NCAA not have a conscience?

This proves $$$$ rules all when it comes to the NCAA.

There are haves and have nots, Pennis St. apparently is a have. SMU is a have not.

BTW, college football is still much better than NFL football. The $$$$ does get in the way though.
 
Any kid that could get a scholarship at Penn St would have numerous other options at their disposal. They would still get a chance to play somewhere. You're not taking anything away from anybody there.

And I do see the student body as complicit. Maybe not the current students but definitely the alumni and administration. They deserve punishment. Penn St is a unique case. I can't think of any occurrence similar to this happening within an athletic program. Baylor is trending that way and if Briles is not held accountable then that school should suffer the same fate. The people at Baylor should be asking questions, not trying to hide answers. And if they don't make an effort soon then I would throw the book at them too. There is plenty of football to go around for everyone, and if you abuse the privilege at the expense of ruining other people's lives then you deserve to be held accountable. And that goes beyond just the actual football team itself.

Penn St's students and administrators worshipped Paterno as a god for decades. Their fan base was a cult, and anyone who has spent time around Penn St people immediately knows what I'm taking about. Paterno was allowed more power and influence than any coach in history. He had more power than his bosses. He had more power than the president of the university. Hell, he had more power at Penn St than the governor of the state.

And how did that happen? Everyone affiliated with the university let his influence and power grow unchecked over decades. As long as he continued to bring dollars and wins to the university they couldn't care less what went on in his program. Plus, if anything did happen, he didn't even have to report it to anyone, because nobody could do anything about it that he didn't want done anyway.

That is the definition of a lack of institutional control. And since it happened in the football program it is under the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

Take away their football program. If they lose money or students because of that I don't care. They are the ones that allowed Paterno to have the type of power that he eventually abused.
I don't understand why anyone is going to PSU now. You are IDed with your college the rest of your life. Why is anyone going to "Child Molester U"?
 
I don't understand why anyone is going to PSU now. You are IDed with your college the rest of your life. Why is anyone going to "Child Molester U"?

Why do kids go to UT, people get killed there
 
Why do kids go to UT, people get killed there

Is there proof out there that people at UT knew what was going to happen but hushed it up because they didn't want to damage their football program?

The difference with Penn St is that people knew about the criminal activity and tried to hide it. That's different than a crazy person running loose on your campus. People that worked for the school are actually guilty of helping the criminal commit his crimes.
 
Is there proof out there that people at UT knew what was going to happen but hushed it up because they didn't want to damage their football program?

I was being facetious, and I think you know that. Is there proof that people in the current program knew Sandusky was a molester? If so, they should be punished
 
I was being facetious, and I think you know that. Is there proof that people in the current program knew Sandusky was a molester? If so, they should be punished

In the current program? I would think not.

But what's crazy is that there are still people that work for Penn St that support Paterno and are actively fighting to have his statue put back on campus.
 
In the current program? I would think not.

But what's crazy is that there are still people that work for Penn St that support Paterno and are actively fighting to have his statue put back on campus.

That is crazy
 
Any kid that could get a scholarship at Penn St would have numerous other options at their disposal. They would still get a chance to play somewhere. You're not taking anything away from anybody there.

And I do see the student body as complicit. Maybe not the current students but definitely the alumni and administration. They deserve punishment. Penn St is a unique case. I can't think of any occurrence similar to this happening within an athletic program. Baylor is trending that way and if Briles is not held accountable then that school should suffer the same fate. The people at Baylor should be asking questions, not trying to hide answers. And if they don't make an effort soon then I would throw the book at them too. There is plenty of football to go around for everyone, and if you abuse the privilege at the expense of ruining other people's lives then you deserve to be held accountable. And that goes beyond just the actual football team itself.

Penn St's students and administrators worshipped Paterno as a god for decades. Their fan base was a cult, and anyone who has spent time around Penn St people immediately knows what I'm taking about. Paterno was allowed more power and influence than any coach in history. He had more power than his bosses. He had more power than the president of the university. Hell, he had more power at Penn St than the governor of the state.

And how did that happen? Everyone affiliated with the university let his influence and power grow unchecked over decades. As long as he continued to bring dollars and wins to the university they couldn't care less what went on in his program. Plus, if anything did happen, he didn't even have to report it to anyone, because nobody could do anything about it that he didn't want done anyway.

That is the definition of a lack of institutional control. And since it happened in the football program it is under the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

Take away their football program. If they lose money or students because of that I don't care. They are the ones that allowed Paterno to have the type of power that he eventually abused.

I'm not worried about the highly ranked kids that would go to Penn St. I'm worried about the kids they'd bump to go somewhere else. And those down that bumped line. There are only a finite number of these things out there.

I get the disgust. And Penn St JoePa worship is probably as bizarre a cult of personality as there is in American sports. The fact that it still exists to this day for some, even with all the info and evidence that's out, it makes it all the more incomprehensible. I just think we're capable of turning the page without the collateral damage you're suggesting. Something along the lines of the idea you put forth in your post below the one I quoted here sounds about right. I just hate limiting the number of destinations for kids to get their foot in a door and punishing those that didn't actually do anything wrong. But maybe I'm just weighing that naively against the horrors of all that happened there. And I do understand the scope of all that happened.

I don't think you're wrong, in how you feel or your logic ... it's just such an end all be all, all encompassing solution that I have trouble giving the thumbs up to. You've certainly made me pause in how I've thought about it though.
 
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This may be the worst case of lack of instutional control in NCAA history, but the death penalty was not on the table. Haves (Pennis St. vs Have Nots Poor SMU.) Double standard much?

I mean little boys were getting raped and Joe Pa let it happen.

NCAA logic is about how it might "impact" the game.

Seriously, USC gave Reggie some money, so they took his Heisman, vacated a bunch of wins, took away championships, took away scholarships, and drove out the best coach in college football (though Pistol Pete got the last laugh).

It is like Goodell going after Brady for some deflated balls, then giving Ray Rice a slap on the wrist for nearly beating his fiance to death.
 
Maybe I'm not seeing where 'the university' is some entity that needs punishment or that will be an example. What is left after the complicit people are punished, booted, erased, etc of 'the university' that should face crushing? Anyone looking to get rich in hiring scumbags in the future are simply people too who should stand to learn from the punishment these people should face. Is there no differentiation between the offending people and the university?
That argument didn't help the myriad of innocent people at Enron any.:chef:
 
Joe Paterno was pretty much an institution for most of my adult life and as I became less and less interested in college football he was sort of a "fixed point" that never changed and I always liked that. No matter how out of date my NCAA knowledge was I always knew that Joe Paterno was the HC of Penn State and doing things his way. I never followed Penn State mind you. I don't know anyone who ever attended it. No vested interest in their success or failure. I just always liked the simplicity of their uniforms and how their program seemed to represent some kind of mythical "higher ground" with all that stuff about character and teaching life lessons and **** like that. There were times when they seemed like a place that was as interested in all those intangible aspects of the game that so many people talk about but that you don't see in practice. In other words I fell for it "Hook, line, and sinker".

Of course it was all bull.

I really didn't want to think Paterno was as aware of it as he was. I resisted that idea for a long time because it didn't fit my mental picture. Sure Sandusky was a piece of **** that needed to spend an eternity in prison getting raped as pay back for his crimes but I hated to think Joe Paterno was really ignoring it and knew. It's pretty much undeniable though and I'm glad this bastards "legacy" is being torn to shreds now.
 
It gets even worse.

CNN: Sandusky Victim Says Joe Paterno Ordered Him To Drop Accusation
Timothy Burke
Yesterday 2:16pm


CNN’s Sara Ganim reports a man who says Jerry Sandusky raped him in 1971 claims to have been ordered to drop the accusation by Joe Paterno himself.

The man, now 60, was a party to the $60 million settlement Penn State paid out to Sandusky’s victims; CNN also reports the university paid for his years in rehab resulting from his anger over the incident. The victim claims Paterno and another man called him after his foster parents reported the assault to Penn State officials:

“I tell them what happened — well, I couldn’t get it out of me that I was — I can’t even tell it to this day. It’s just degrading — that I was raped,” he said.

“I told the story up to a certain point. I told them that he grabbed me and that I got the hell out of there.”

He insisted that he “made it very clear” it was a sexual attack.

“I made it clear there were things done to me that I just can’t believe could have been done to me and I couldn’t escape. I said, ‘I’m very upset and scared and I couldn’t believe I let my guard down.’ They listened to me. And then all hell broke loose.

“They were asking me my motive, why I would say this about someone who has done so many good things.”

They accused him of making it up. “’Stop this right now! We’ll call the authorities,’” he said they told him.

Victim A says he couldn’t think. “I just wanted to get off the phone.”

CNN also reported a Pennsylvania state trooper confirmed the victim’s story as told to him after the allegations against Sandusky became public in 2011. Paterno’s death in January 2012 prevented authorities from engaging in a detailed interrogation with regard to what he knew about Sandusky’s decades-long string of assaults.
 
Maybe I'm not seeing where 'the university' is some entity that needs punishment or that will be an example.

In my eyes, it comes down to the fact that "the university" tied its identity to Joe Paterno, quite deliberately, for decades. The university propped up Paterno and his program as some sort of golden point on the moral compass. Even now, when it's becoming clearer every day that Paterno was at the very least complicit in the rapes, Penn St. alumni argue for Joe Paterno. Let's face it - "the university" is nothing more than the buildings and the people who went there. Yeah, you have some people administering it all, but "the university" as some abstract s really nothing more than alumni and an image. And the fact that the image IS Joe Paterno means that "the university" needs to cease to exist, as far as I'm concerned. I mean that quite literally. I'd be 100% on board with a fleet of bulldozers visiting Penn St.

And just like when Enron fell, those people will find new schools, get scholarships, and the cream will rise. The damage they've suffered from the taint of the Penn St. brand is more than they would actually suffer if the campus was razed. Now, I recognize how unrealistic that is, but NCAA death penalty should be a no brainer lock of a decision, as far as I'm concerned.
 
From that article:

School President Eric Barron issued a letter to the university community on Sunday in which he labeled the allegations about Paterno and assistant coaches "innuendo."

"The allegations related to Penn State are simply not established fact," he said.

This is what I'm talking about. There are a number of ways the university could phrase things and/or keep its trap shut that would maintain neutrality and slowly distance themselves from this travesty. Instead, they make statements that come across as defending Paterno. To this day, they are tying the identity of Penn State to that of a dead man that condoned child rape.

I'm telling you ... bulldozers.
 
From that article:



This is what I'm talking about. There are a number of ways the university could phrase things and/or keep its trap shut that would maintain neutrality and slowly distance themselves from this travesty. Instead, they make statements that come across as defending Paterno. To this day, they are tying the identity of Penn State to that of a dead man that condoned child rape.

I'm telling you ... bulldozers.

The guy coached football & was an icon there for like 50 years...Did mostly good/great things for that university & with that football team.....on & off the field in that time. I say that to say that there's no way in hell they'd be able to distance themselves from him. Time (& lots of it) is the only that's gonna do that for them...........& even then, it'll still be there every time those football archives are referenced.
 
This is another media sensation where, of course, I am aware of the broad story but not all the details. To me it's just another example of the society we have created. We have multiple cases, over a span of years, of young adults being sexually abused/exploited and not one went to the police to file charges? In my mind, this is an indictment against society. It's also an indictment against the "victims" for not taking responsibility for their lives and filing charges.

As I said, I don't know the details of the individual cases, so I can't get too worked up over media sensationism and liberally defined social "crime". I don't get it - if crimes were committed, why weren't crimes reported by the victims.
 
The guy coached football & was an icon there for like 50 years...Did mostly good/great things for that university & with that football team.....on & off the field in that time. I say that to say that there's no way in hell they'd be able to distance themselves from him. Time (& lots of it) is the only that's gonna do that for them...........& even then, it'll still be there every time those football archives are referenced.

It's one thing for others to associate Paterno with Penn St. That's going to happen and there's nothing PSU can do about it. As you say, time is the only thing that will heal that. But it's quite a different level when not only are other people associating Paterno with PSU, but they themselves keep appearing to be defending the man and fighting back the bad things being said about him. That is the problem with "the university" as an abstract. They need to just lay low and shut up. But they aren't.
 
They were. Keep up.
If they were, then you're talking about corruption in the police department, in the city government and in the local courts. I haven't heard a word about this. And if the local government was so corrupt as to ignor this criminal activity, then the federal courts should have been involved; and we're now talking about corruption at the federal level. See, this is an indictment against all of society.
 
If they were, then you're talking about corruption in the police department, in the city government and in the local courts. I haven't heard a word about this. And if the local government was so corrupt as to ignor this criminal activity, then the federal courts should have been involved; and we're now talking about corruption at the federal level. See, this is an indictment against all of society.
These incidents were reported and sometimes witnessed, but at the University level............and there is where the reports were actively internally blocked from going further. Essentially the chickens reported their abuse to the wolves supposedly protecting the chicken house.
 
These incidents were reported and sometimes witnessed, but at the University level............and there is where the reports were actively internally blocked from going further. Essentially the chickens reported their abuse to the wolves supposedly protecting the chicken house.
Thank you for this reasoned reply. But this brings me back to my original comment. I simply do not understand why criminal acts are not reported to the police.

I would go out on a limb and say it's because, many times if not most, these are not criminal acts but rather are acts of behavior which the political left is politicizing as inappropriate and with an intent to make criminal.

It all boils down to the simple fact that if a criminal act has been committed, then the appropriate jurisdiction is the criminal justice system and not the university system. And for, what, 30 years, this was not the case.
 
I would go out on a limb and say it's because, many times if not most, these are not criminal acts but rather are acts of behavior which the political left is politicizing as inappropriate and with an intent to make criminal.

Maybe instead of speculating your way onto a thin branch saw in hand you should do a little reading. There's a wealth of research and information out there and the biggest issues involved are stigma and not wanting to relive the experience over and over while under attack.

It all boils down to the simple fact that if a criminal act has been committed, then the appropriate jurisdiction is the criminal justice system and not the university system. And for, what, 30 years, this was not the case.

Most universities now have police, including Penn State.

th
 
I have questions with a police force motivated by university employment.

Seems to easy for university personnel to push a decision in the direction they want when Leo's are in jeoprady of cut backs. Not certain how it all works - and maybe it is totally just. Just have my doubts.
 
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