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Is Wide Receiver A Major Need?
- Thread starter D-ReK
- Start date
outofhnd said:
only 3 people can answer that question... Owner, GM, Coach i cant, u cant, no 1 on this site. They will have to take 1 eventually.
Since they havent release Sharper that tells me he is going to be traded. I havent heard of any deals that dont involved picks... It seems like a good idea to trade up and get a player that can help and grow with the team. We dont actually give up a pick bc of Sharper talent.. we just excahange that's what ceals the deal for me
outofhnd
Rookie
I really don't see us drafting a receiver with our top pick. Its just like another forum when casserly was asked why he didnt pursue Mason in FA.
"in this league it costs too much to have 2 number 1 caliber guys on the same team"
WR is not a major need period. Atleast in my opinion not major enough to warrant our first round pick. It can be addressed in later rounds . Plus, I just get an eerie feeling we may just trade down in the first round. Though call it a gut feeling.
"in this league it costs too much to have 2 number 1 caliber guys on the same team"
WR is not a major need period. Atleast in my opinion not major enough to warrant our first round pick. It can be addressed in later rounds . Plus, I just get an eerie feeling we may just trade down in the first round. Though call it a gut feeling.
From the sources i hear it will happen. I seriously doubt it wont. Mason wanted too much money.. thats the reason he didnt come here. I think the texans perfer to build through the draft anyways. I have my gut feeling too that says #13 Williamson and trade up to get Blackstock.
outofhnd
Rookie
I have looked at 15 different mock drafts.
Of the 15
Barron - 5
Benson - 1
Brown - 1
Pac man - 2
J.Brown - 1 - I think this guy smoked a ricky Bag before he did this
T. Davis - 1
D. Ware - 1
M Spears - 1
T Johnson - 1
T Williamson - 0 the highest he went was to SD at 12 in a lot though he was 16 and down. A couple did not even have him going in round 1. Of course in a couple of those Antrelle Rolle was the 3rd overall pick.
But the majority of the mocks say
40% OT
20% DL
15% CB
15% RB
10% S/LB
Of the 15
Barron - 5
Benson - 1
Brown - 1
Pac man - 2
J.Brown - 1 - I think this guy smoked a ricky Bag before he did this
T. Davis - 1
D. Ware - 1
M Spears - 1
T Johnson - 1
T Williamson - 0 the highest he went was to SD at 12 in a lot though he was 16 and down. A couple did not even have him going in round 1. Of course in a couple of those Antrelle Rolle was the 3rd overall pick.
But the majority of the mocks say
40% OT
20% DL
15% CB
15% RB
10% S/LB
And that is the difference between NFL GMs (at least the good ones) and the plonkers who do mock drafts. Position may have some influence over where on our draft board a player is - we certainly won't have any QBs anywhere near the top, and it's a way to split players of similar ability, but it won't be the principle deciding factor. The top end of Casserly's draft board might look something like this:
Braylon Edwards
Derrick Johnson
Mike Williams
****below this point it would not be worth trading up****
Ronnie Brown
Cedric Benson
Carnell Williams
Antrel Rolle
Adam Jones
David Pollack
Shaun Cody
Mark Clayton
Carlos Rodgers
Alex Barron
There is very little doubt over who the first ten players taken will be: Rodgers, Smith, Brown, Benson, C. Williams, Edwards, M. Williams, Rolle, Jones, Johnson. The order, however, is highly questionable and depends on a lot of things. If any of these players other than the QBs fell to 13, we would be daft not to take them.
More realistically, there is a very good chance that at least one of Mike Williams and DJ could still be available when the Vikes get to the board at 7. If they stay there, they would take one of those two, but given the depth of this draft at WR, they might well be prepared to trade down.
Arizona at 8 will most likely take whichever RB is left (assuming one is) or the second corner (Tennessee having taken the first). They could also go for DJ or for the second QB if one's still on the board.
Washington would like the second corner, but if he's gone to Arizona, they would take DJ or Mike Williams if either was still available.
Any of these three teams would be willing to consider a trade proposal involving Sharper - Arizona are weak and inexperienced at LB, Washington just lost Pierce, and Minnesota still want help on their defense and will be aware of the availability of good wideouts lower down. Detroit at 10, on the other hand, will not be interested in trading down at any reasonable price, being already in the right place to grab the last top player in the class (unless it turns out to be a QB - not likely).
There is no way it is worth our while trading into the top 5 for any reason - we need depth. Trading to 6 would be a waste of effort, since Tennessee will take a corner anyway. If we are looking to trade up, our goal is probably to get Johnson, since Edwards will be gone too early and Williams is too similar to AJ. What this means is that 1. We have to pick ahead of Detroit (who could also look to move up a place or two to get him), 2. The Browns have not to pick him (I expect them to go QB, but it is a possibility) and 3. The Bears have to stay where they are, not trade with someone who really wants him. If Johnson is still on the board at 7, we should probably at least start thinking about a trade up.
Otherwise, it is very likely that most if not all of Pollack, Cody, Clayton, C. Rodgers and Barron will be available at 13, and I would not complain about selecting any of those. Williamson, as far as I'm concerned, can go hang, and I hope CC agrees with me. The only way he's interesting is if Carolina really do like him and are prepared to cough something up to swap picks. If we do pick at 13, Sharper will most likely be used to upgrade our 2nd rounder into a low 1st or top 2nd. Trading down our 1st for two lower 1sts would also be fine by me. What we neither are nor should be doing is thinking, "Our biggest need is OLT and Barron is the best available: let's draft Barron." That's Madden thinking. Then again, so is trading 2, 3 and 4 for a 1, so who knows.
Wait, what am I talking about? No way would Madden let you get a 1 just for a 2, 3 and 4. Three 2s all the way.
Braylon Edwards
Derrick Johnson
Mike Williams
****below this point it would not be worth trading up****
Ronnie Brown
Cedric Benson
Carnell Williams
Antrel Rolle
Adam Jones
David Pollack
Shaun Cody
Mark Clayton
Carlos Rodgers
Alex Barron
There is very little doubt over who the first ten players taken will be: Rodgers, Smith, Brown, Benson, C. Williams, Edwards, M. Williams, Rolle, Jones, Johnson. The order, however, is highly questionable and depends on a lot of things. If any of these players other than the QBs fell to 13, we would be daft not to take them.
More realistically, there is a very good chance that at least one of Mike Williams and DJ could still be available when the Vikes get to the board at 7. If they stay there, they would take one of those two, but given the depth of this draft at WR, they might well be prepared to trade down.
Arizona at 8 will most likely take whichever RB is left (assuming one is) or the second corner (Tennessee having taken the first). They could also go for DJ or for the second QB if one's still on the board.
Washington would like the second corner, but if he's gone to Arizona, they would take DJ or Mike Williams if either was still available.
Any of these three teams would be willing to consider a trade proposal involving Sharper - Arizona are weak and inexperienced at LB, Washington just lost Pierce, and Minnesota still want help on their defense and will be aware of the availability of good wideouts lower down. Detroit at 10, on the other hand, will not be interested in trading down at any reasonable price, being already in the right place to grab the last top player in the class (unless it turns out to be a QB - not likely).
There is no way it is worth our while trading into the top 5 for any reason - we need depth. Trading to 6 would be a waste of effort, since Tennessee will take a corner anyway. If we are looking to trade up, our goal is probably to get Johnson, since Edwards will be gone too early and Williams is too similar to AJ. What this means is that 1. We have to pick ahead of Detroit (who could also look to move up a place or two to get him), 2. The Browns have not to pick him (I expect them to go QB, but it is a possibility) and 3. The Bears have to stay where they are, not trade with someone who really wants him. If Johnson is still on the board at 7, we should probably at least start thinking about a trade up.
Otherwise, it is very likely that most if not all of Pollack, Cody, Clayton, C. Rodgers and Barron will be available at 13, and I would not complain about selecting any of those. Williamson, as far as I'm concerned, can go hang, and I hope CC agrees with me. The only way he's interesting is if Carolina really do like him and are prepared to cough something up to swap picks. If we do pick at 13, Sharper will most likely be used to upgrade our 2nd rounder into a low 1st or top 2nd. Trading down our 1st for two lower 1sts would also be fine by me. What we neither are nor should be doing is thinking, "Our biggest need is OLT and Barron is the best available: let's draft Barron." That's Madden thinking. Then again, so is trading 2, 3 and 4 for a 1, so who knows.
Wait, what am I talking about? No way would Madden let you get a 1 just for a 2, 3 and 4. Three 2s all the way.
D-ReK
RAWWWRR!
royce1054 said:
I agree with you to an extent...Yes every player has a problem or two, but I think the degree of Blackstock's weaknesses may overweigh his strengths...He is an amazing pass rusher, but he can't stop the run...He's exactly like Peek...Oh, and for the record, Blackstock already knows the 3-4...He played in a 3-4 scheme in college...
The Preacher
Waterboy
Nice debating Mr. Shush I'll assume you think Merriman and Spears are going to Dallas and San Diego respectively since they weren't on your possibly available to us list. I kind of hope the Williamson hype can jump him into the top ten but unlikely. The Vikes could take him especially if the other two are gone and he has athleticism somewhat similar to Moss. They have to be thinking receiver after everything they have done to their defense and if you check out the difference in Culpepper's stats with and w/o Moss it was something like 100 yds/gm and 1.5 td's game difference. Chicago and/or Tennessee/Tampa Bay most likely Mcnair wanting a big target makes this a legitimate possibility. I mean it would be hard to pass on Mike Williams even if your defense was in shambles. That said I also hope Detroit picks Barron meaning we'll take a playmaker no matter what happens. This is wishful thinking but it allows us to get a primetime player and I think the Texans do a great job of evaluating 1st round talent so we can probably rest assure knowing we're going to be vastly improved in 05' and beyond. With that said I remember when the Titans had the 13th pick and I was surprised when Kearse fell to them. Does history repeat and a freak like Merriman fall to us? I don't think I would be disappointed.
"I'll assume you think Merriman and Spears are going to Dallas and San Diego respectively since they weren't on your possibly available to us list"
Nope, I just don't like them as much (for us) as the guys I listed. My list was intended to include every player who could (even theoretically) be available at 13 - you could continue it to include up to 300+ players if you really wanted, but I included only those I regard as the 13 best (not counting QBs because we have no possible interest in taking one) - because obviously a list of 13 is enough to guarantee that at least one guy on it will still be there. But the point was more a matter of principle - what matters is that there is an ordered list and you take the highest player left on it. If you think Merriman's the daddy, put him in ahead of Pollack or somewhere. Let's face it, Casserly has access to a lot more reports and game-film than we do anyway, so his list won't be the same as either of ours. And yes, recent history does give me a lot of faith in his ability to make good high round choices (although, much as I like Babin, I still think that was a bad trade).
Nope, I just don't like them as much (for us) as the guys I listed. My list was intended to include every player who could (even theoretically) be available at 13 - you could continue it to include up to 300+ players if you really wanted, but I included only those I regard as the 13 best (not counting QBs because we have no possible interest in taking one) - because obviously a list of 13 is enough to guarantee that at least one guy on it will still be there. But the point was more a matter of principle - what matters is that there is an ordered list and you take the highest player left on it. If you think Merriman's the daddy, put him in ahead of Pollack or somewhere. Let's face it, Casserly has access to a lot more reports and game-film than we do anyway, so his list won't be the same as either of ours. And yes, recent history does give me a lot of faith in his ability to make good high round choices (although, much as I like Babin, I still think that was a bad trade).
cadahnic
Rookie
I like the Codys', Spears will create pressure, and pollack is a work hard kinda guy, but our pass rushers will likely come from later picks in the draft. Our main focus should be Spears, or some NTs, in a post somewhere else someone brought up the possibility of us trading down picking up more picks and grabbing someone like D. Ware, D. Pollack, J. Brown, or Blackstock. What do you all think of that. More picks would guarantee we fill some of our depth issues
I don't think we can really go too far wrong in terms of trades, (barring something daft like sacrificing a load of picks to get into the top 5), but I do think drafting for need is almost always a mistake.
That said, we clearly have at least as much need on our O-line as we do in terms of pass-rush - Babin will continue to progress and Peek will probably be reasonably effective in this respect too.
That said, we clearly have at least as much need on our O-line as we do in terms of pass-rush - Babin will continue to progress and Peek will probably be reasonably effective in this respect too.
D-ReK
RAWWWRR!
cadahnic said:
I agree with most of this...The problem is that I doubt there will be many teams that want to move up in this draft, so we may be forced to reach for someone like Pollack at 13...As for the D-Line, I think there are a few good prospects that will be available in the 2nd, namely Chris Canty and Luis Castillo, both of which would make good DEs...As for NT, I'm all for Anthony Bryant out of Alabama...
D-ReK
RAWWWRR!
Means is huge and would be a great NT IMO...He should be available in the 5th or maybe even 6th...There are major concerns about his stamina, his ability to maintain his weight, and people have questioned if he always give 100%, but he is definitely a big body that would keep Payne fresh...
WR is a need it will be the first pick but they will also attend to the defense by trading up to get a player just like last year in the Babin trade. Since we have sharper it wont cost us a pick. It looks good in that prospective. I would be happy to see Williamson at #13 and maybe Blackstock at like 28 or 29.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
royce1054 said:
Nahhh, you must be joking about this, I mean this is only the twentieth thread you have posted the same thought. Must be a smokescreen.
no trades this is how i think it will go
1. Rodgers
2. Brown
3. Johnson
4. Edwards
5. C. Williams
6. Pac-man
7. M. Williams
8. Benson (unless travis henry is traded)
9. Rolle
10. Merriman
11. James
12. Spears
13. Williamson
That is realistic. seems like a good way to go. Williamson is best player for us at the pick. Now if we got Channing Crowder who is my #16 to saints could be drafted keep wong on the outside. Then trade up and maybe get a Roddy White but thats a little iffy.
i still think Williamson is the pick and a trade up for Blackstock and move wong to his natural postition onn the inside
1. Rodgers
2. Brown
3. Johnson
4. Edwards
5. C. Williams
6. Pac-man
7. M. Williams
8. Benson (unless travis henry is traded)
9. Rolle
10. Merriman
11. James
12. Spears
13. Williamson
That is realistic. seems like a good way to go. Williamson is best player for us at the pick. Now if we got Channing Crowder who is my #16 to saints could be drafted keep wong on the outside. Then trade up and maybe get a Roddy White but thats a little iffy.
i still think Williamson is the pick and a trade up for Blackstock and move wong to his natural postition onn the inside
Dunta_23
Rookie
I still dont really feel that WR is a bigtime need....I have yet to see Starling play, but ppl say he is a gamer...Gaffney is still only 22 or 23, I think he needs another year with Carr getting a bit better protection he can be good and Armstrong in the slot....unless a steal is available in round 2...I dont see it being adressed early....UNLESS....Williams or Edwards falls to around 10 and they move up and get them....
Dunta_23 said:
Sterling might not even make the team.. If he does its a gunner on punt and maybe on kick off. I dont think we will have a 2nd round pick. I think we will get a puss rusher and a WR to replace Bradford.. you cant ask for more than that. Then we have 2 3rd round picks we can get a DE and CB to add depth.
D-ReK
RAWWWRR!
royce1054 said:
I know stranger things have happened, but IMO, there's no possible way that Starling doesn't make the team...He has all of the tools you look for in a solid receiver...He showed tons of promise during the preseason last year, but he wasn't used during the season because he was having problems with learning the playbook...After a year in the system, he should be ready to make some sort of impact this year...Not #2 receiver impact, but I can see him getting 15 catches and a TD...
texasguy346
Mod Squad
Starling did get some game time this season, but not much at WR (maybe a few plays, can't be sure). I'm pretty sure he was called up from the practice squad around midseason. He mostly saw action as a gunner, but I agree that he'll most likely make the team even if JJ Moses remains our returner next season. If JJ is somehow unseated then Starling will definately be on the roster as the 4th or 5th WR, and has a good chance of playing more. We'll get a much better idea once training camp gets underway.
outofhnd
Rookie
Royce...
If we draft Williamson with our 13th pick. I will give you props for having the preminition.
However It would be the worst move we could possibly make. We are not the Colts or the Rams offense.
Our offense runs thru AJ. We do not need another speedster WR especially one with marginal hands. what we need is a solid posession receiver that will force the D to chose be killed in 1 shot or the slow methodical death.
If we do not improve our lines this year especially at DT& LTyour receiver will make 0 impact because he wont be on the field for 3 plays and then back to the bench. Id rather have Bradford back than Williamson atleast he knows the playbook.
If we draft Williamson with our 13th pick. I will give you props for having the preminition.
However It would be the worst move we could possibly make. We are not the Colts or the Rams offense.
Our offense runs thru AJ. We do not need another speedster WR especially one with marginal hands. what we need is a solid posession receiver that will force the D to chose be killed in 1 shot or the slow methodical death.
If we do not improve our lines this year especially at DT& LTyour receiver will make 0 impact because he wont be on the field for 3 plays and then back to the bench. Id rather have Bradford back than Williamson atleast he knows the playbook.
Williamson doesn't do much for me. He has "potential" and speed and height and... Well there are a lot of guys with "potential" and speed and height.
If you looked at Sloan Thomas' numbers from a year ago... He had potential... and yeah he was not drafted high at all... But still he was and still is tall and he was and is very fast... and he had made spectacular catches in college... but he didn't even make the real team.
Williamson didn't do enough in college to spend my first pick on him when I have so many other needs. I'd give Starling and Armstrong and Sloan Thomas and someone I draft in a latter round the chance to fill the need.
If you looked at Sloan Thomas' numbers from a year ago... He had potential... and yeah he was not drafted high at all... But still he was and still is tall and he was and is very fast... and he had made spectacular catches in college... but he didn't even make the real team.
Williamson didn't do enough in college to spend my first pick on him when I have so many other needs. I'd give Starling and Armstrong and Sloan Thomas and someone I draft in a latter round the chance to fill the need.
Yup. Doesn't matter if he can't catch there: Vick won't get the ball anywhere near him anyway. He just has to stretch the field and give them yet more room to run from their 3-back formations.
I like the sound of Mark Clayton (although he might be a slight reach at 13) and I don't think Pollack would be a reach there at all.
I like the sound of Mark Clayton (although he might be a slight reach at 13) and I don't think Pollack would be a reach there at all.
D-ReK
RAWWWRR!
IMO Clayton is a much better option than Williamson...He has better hands, runs better routes, and their speed numbers are virtually the same...The only advantage Williamson has over Clayton is that he's bigger...I still think we're either going RB (if someone fell) or defense in the 1st...
TheOgre
All Pro
royce1054 said:
How do you propose we move up from the 2nd into the 1st round? If you are thinking that Sharper will propel us that far, you are vastely overestimating his market value. In 2003 the Ravens moved from the 2nd to the 1st and it cost them their 1st the following year. In 2004 the Bills moved from the 2nd to the 1st and it cost them a 1st the following year. There is absolutely no way that Sharper is worth a 2006 1st rounder in TRADE VALUE.