2012Champs
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IS USC Better Than TAMU?
- Thread starter thetexanator
- Start date
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Historically speaking, A&M doesn't even compare to USC. The only reason it's even a question right now is because of what Sumlin has already done at A&M and how badly Kiffin tanked USC.
3 years ago it's not even a question that he goes to USC. However, because of the situation both schools are in, it's not crazy for him to stay. He's established a huge base at A&M very quickly.
3 years ago it's not even a question that he goes to USC. However, because of the situation both schools are in, it's not crazy for him to stay. He's established a huge base at A&M very quickly.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Not even close....
recruiting for USC >> TAMU
Money at USC > TAMU
Natl title aspirations for USC >>>> TAMU....as long as Saban is in Bama anyway.
Program prestige at USC >>>>>>> TAMU
Living in LA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> living in college station
for what it's worth though, i hope he stays....
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
I already addressed the first point earlier. Take a look at their recruiting classes.
As for money, if you think A&M can't throw more money at Sumlin than USC, you're wrong.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
USC recruits itself. They signed 8 blue-chip recruits the last 2 years while under sanctions. A&M has signed 1 blue-chip in the same time frame.
USC's recruiting is down this year because of Lane Kiffin's implosion. Already, since his firing, top recruits on the west coast are interested in USC again. If Sumlin were at USC, he would bring in top 3 classes every single year.
And A&M can throw a ton of money at Sumlin, but you're fooling yourself if you think USC can't outbid them.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Sumlin's system is basically 7 on 7...& With the explosion of 7 on 7 all over the nation...getting decent to top recruits to want to play in that kind of system won't be a problem...especially out there. Apart from that... valuing recruiting classes has become largely overated & highly inaccurate over the years. You simply don't know what you have until the kid steps on campus...beefs up & then onto the field ....Manziel was a 3 star recruit coming out....not really on anyone's radar...you know the rest. I say all that to say it'll be easy to find guys to play in Sumlin's system whether he has a top recruiting class or not.
As far as A&M throwing money at him...sure they could...but that's really all they can do....As a UofH grad, we heard the same thing about his family loving Houston....apparently, they didn't love it too much though.
if the money is relatively even....A&M will loses every time.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
They aren't killing it in recruiting compared to what can be accomplished at USC.
A&M was ranked #15 in 2012, #11 in 2013, and are currently #14 for 2014. That's according to rivals.
When a coach produces at USC, they get top 3 recruiting classes EVERY year. There is a huge difference between #10 and #3 class rank in recruiting.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
I think the recruiting angle is fairly negligible honestly. While USC might be looked on more favorably than A&M by the national population, there are a **** ton of talented kids coming out of Texas H.S. Football programs, especially QB's. USC might be easier to recruit a talented defense due to it's "linebacker U" label, but a coach like Sumlin probably gets his choice of QB's, WR's and O-linemen.
He can more than likely dig up the kind of recruits that he would need to compete in the SEC, and his schemes seem really good at putting up gaudy numbers. Right now, Sumlin is either some kind of offensive mastermind, or he's gotten extremely lucky in who he took over for and what they already had on the roster. I'm leaning towards the former since he did it with UH and with TAMU.
He can more than likely dig up the kind of recruits that he would need to compete in the SEC, and his schemes seem really good at putting up gaudy numbers. Right now, Sumlin is either some kind of offensive mastermind, or he's gotten extremely lucky in who he took over for and what they already had on the roster. I'm leaning towards the former since he did it with UH and with TAMU.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Didn't see this, you basically said the same thing I just posted.
California has an equal amount of top players than does Texas and USC gets their pick of them when they are producing. They also pull recruits from all over the nation, even from Florida.
If we were to go to San Diego & ask 100 people if they knew the name of the last two Texas A&M head coaches were, how many do you think would answer with 1 correct name?
If we were to go to Houston & ask 100 people if they knew the name of the last two USC coaches, how many do you think would answer with 1 correct name?
If you were to ask 1,000 people in San Francisco to name 2 people that ever QB'd for A&M, how many would come up with a correct name?
If you were to ask 1,000 people in San Antonio to name 2 people that ever QB'd for USC, how many would come up with a correct name?
True enough, A&M is closer to a National Title than USC, but as soon as those sanction measures are done, USC will be back on top again.
If we were to go to Houston & ask 100 people if they knew the name of the last two USC coaches, how many do you think would answer with 1 correct name?
If you were to ask 1,000 people in San Francisco to name 2 people that ever QB'd for A&M, how many would come up with a correct name?
If you were to ask 1,000 people in San Antonio to name 2 people that ever QB'd for USC, how many would come up with a correct name?
True enough, A&M is closer to a National Title than USC, but as soon as those sanction measures are done, USC will be back on top again.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
Nice job Dan and totally off the the point I was making which was SEC v. The PAC whatever
So your point was that A&M is more relevant because the SEC wins titles? So are Ole Miss and Vanderbilt more high profile too?
Stemp
Brew Master
Especially when he's letting agents and runners pay his players.
And recruiting rankings don't necessarily translate to wins on the field.
Oregon hasn't been higher than #9 yet they still manage to win.
Texas has been top 5-8 and the past several years based on average stars yet the have tanked.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
So, what are you saying? That attaining more talented players has nothing to do with success?
Alabama has been in the top 3 in recruiting for how long now? Their depth is apparent when you watch them play.
Look at what Carroll had at USC, top recruiting classes with great coaching. When you pair several top 3 recruiting classes with great coaching, you often get a dominate football team. That is what Sumlin stands to achieve at USC.
Stemp
Brew Master
It's not the only factor in success, and not the most important factor. There are tons of examples of highly rated guys who are busts and many examples of guys who weren't highly ranked and became great and superstar players.
A good coach that can spot and develop talent is more valuable than a coach who can convince a highly ranked recruit to come and then let's that player's talent atrophy in their system.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
That's why the top 3 classes are better than the #10 class. You get tons of top recruits and you don't lean heavily on one player. You end up with 2 or 3 top players at each position and they battle it out for the position. A great coach that can develop top talent is better than a great coach that can develop good talent.
The coaching and talent development would be the same in both situations, I'm not sure I understand what you are arguing.
Stemp
Brew Master
Other than Nick Saban, name a coach who consistently brings in top 3 recruiting classes and develops his players?
The guys who can develop talent often don't get the highest ranked classes because they get players who may not be as highly ranked by the "recruiting gurus" who set the rankings. Mack Brown is notorious for bringing in highly ranked classes and then riding their talent without developing them further.
So my point is, just because a team gets a highly ranked class doesn't mean they will win. And just because a team only is top 10 rather than top 5 doesn't mean that when it all shakes out, that that recruiting class isn't better than the ones ranked above them.
Recruiting classes are suspect anyways because they are subjective and based on potential not results, much like the NFL draft.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Lol @ USC outbidding Texas A&M
Do you really think after dropping half a billion on our stadium we're going to let another school outbid us for Sumlin?
This school is aiming for the stars, both academically and in athletics. There is aggressive expansion going on in College Station the likes of which has perhaps never been seen. Whether we get there or not is up for debate, but the whole "you never will" shtick is getting real old.
Do you really think after dropping half a billion on our stadium we're going to let another school outbid us for Sumlin?
This school is aiming for the stars, both academically and in athletics. There is aggressive expansion going on in College Station the likes of which has perhaps never been seen. Whether we get there or not is up for debate, but the whole "you never will" shtick is getting real old.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
To be fair, I'm pretty sure anyone who watches football could say "Johnny Manziel and Ryan Tannehill" nowadays.
The talent that A&M puts out on the NFL level also draws attention to the college program itself. If A&M starts putting out more quality NFL talent (and by the looks of things, A&M is going to make a name for itself as O-Line University) it will become more and more relevant.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
well, outbid & outbid by a mile is exactly what you'd have to do to win vs a school of USC's caliber b/c you don't offer anything else. but if the bids are comparable in any way, you'll lose pretty much every time when you're up against 1 of the banner programs in the nation.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Pete used to do it at USC. He developed players for the NFL routinely. Jimbo fisher at Florida State has had several top 3 recruiting classes and has developed them very well, having the most players drafted last year. Urban Meyer did it at Florida, remember that run of dominance?
That's just off the top of my head. What you are missing in your Mack Brown argument is that Mack Brown is not a great coach. He is having a hard enough time picking his assistants.
Winning championships is often about the QB of the team and if they can produce in big games. However, when you have top 3 recruiting classes routinely and great coaching, you always have a shot. A better shot than a team with the #12 recruiting class and great coaching.
Top recruiting classes are more about quantity of blue chip players than one great recruit.
Who is saying that A&M never will reach that level? The point being made is that a great coach has a better opportunity for championships and a better team at USC than at A&M.
I have no problem admitting that USC is a better coaching job than Florida State.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
There's quite a few posters on here who seem to think "elite" is a never-changing cadre of schools.
I don't think you understand the time frame.
Notredame hasn't don't much in terms of championship winning in quite a while. They are still regarded as one if those schools that is a great coaching job.
UT is another one of those schools. USC is one as well.
Tamu isn't a bad job. It's just not on the same level as those schools and it would likely take a very, very, very long time to surpas or match those schools.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
I understand your point, as it's a valid one. However, I differentiate between "elite" in terms of results and "prestige" in terms of what you are talking about - the draw of the coaching job itself. I am not saying A&M is elite, but consistency of excellence will make them elite.
Sumlin is set up here, and he's set up much better than he was in Houston. He's got the conference, the recruiting, the new stadium, and the wholehearted faith of the athletics department here. If prestige is an all important thing to Sumlin, he'll leave. If having things the way he wants it, set up to how he likes... I don't think so.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
It's not that the list of elite schools never changes. It's just that it takes more than one year to join the club. Oregon is a perfect example. They weren't an elite school just because they went to the Rose Bowl once in 95. It took years of sustained success, along with a significant investment in their program, for them to be considered a top level job. Even today some would say that USC or UCLA are bigger jobs than Oregon*.
Some Arkansas fans claimed elite status because they had an 11-2 season where they finished fifth in the country (third in the SEC West) and won the Cotton two years ago. Oops. Things change kind of quickly in college football.
*: I disagree for the record. I think Oregon is one of the best gigs a coach can get. You don't have anywhere near the level of demands you'd have at another school. You have a virtually unlimited budget and you only have to make one guy happy -- Phil Knight. No spoiled fans expecting another natty. No group of multimillionaire alums expecting to get front row seats to every team dinner.
Some Arkansas fans claimed elite status because they had an 11-2 season where they finished fifth in the country (third in the SEC West) and won the Cotton two years ago. Oops. Things change kind of quickly in college football.
*: I disagree for the record. I think Oregon is one of the best gigs a coach can get. You don't have anywhere near the level of demands you'd have at another school. You have a virtually unlimited budget and you only have to make one guy happy -- Phil Knight. No spoiled fans expecting another natty. No group of multimillionaire alums expecting to get front row seats to every team dinner.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Florida State had one of the most successful runs ever in college football and I still see USC as a better job and program. Texas and Alabama are too. FSU is in the club, but it's just not on their level. I don't think A&M is really even close to that club right now. Just being in a conference isn't good enough. You have to win multiple conference championships and probably a few national championships before you can think about joining that group.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
It is pretty much the same teams at the top every year. The only one that has really joined them in my lifetime is The U, which has since fallen back into being average.
You get the occasional team that wins a National Title thanks to a freakish player (Cam with Auburn is the latest example)
A&M probably has the same ceiling the Oregon does. Great offense and a chance to be in the hunt every year, but probably not enough to make it over the top.
If Manziel stayed around and became A&M's Tim Tebow, they may have a shot a gaining ground.
A&M fans feeling a bit insecure? Nah, never.
If DelRio doesn't get the USC job and the Trojans come calling Sumlin, he's GONE.
Sorry A&M fans but living in LA is incomparable to living in the greater Bryan-College Station area. Not many/any Heisman Trophy winners willingly sign up to attend A&M. They signup to live in LA and attend USCquite regularly. (See, Bush/Lienhart/Palmer/White/Bell/Allen etc...)
If DelRio doesn't get the USC job and the Trojans come calling Sumlin, he's GONE.
Sorry A&M fans but living in LA is incomparable to living in the greater Bryan-College Station area. Not many/any Heisman Trophy winners willingly sign up to attend A&M. They signup to live in LA and attend USCquite regularly. (See, Bush/Lienhart/Palmer/White/Bell/Allen etc...)
Ranger Tom
All Pro
I don't understand this statement. How often do Heisman trophy winners transfer to new schools AFTER getting the award? Because that's the only way they can be called "Heisman trophy winners."
Stemp
Brew Master
That is just stupid.
Below are the winners since 1994 who came from schools in cities with population of less than 1M people
Of those, 10 came from schools whose cities have less than 200,000 people
Only the winners in 2002, 2004 and 2005 came from a metro city (all LA).
So 3 our of 19. Not exactly a large percentage and certainly nowhere near a majority.
1994 Rashaan Salaam Colorado Boulder, CO pop. 101,000
1995 Eddie George Ohio State Columbus, OH pop 809,000
1996 Danny Wuerffel Florida Gainsville, FL pop 126,000
1997 Charles Woodson Michigan Ann Arbor, MI pop 116,000
1998 Ricky Williams Texas Austin, TX pop 842,000
1999 Ron Dayne Wisconsin Madison, WI pop 240,000
2000 Chris Weinke Florida State Tallahasee, FL pop 186,000
2001 Eric Crouch Nebraska Lincoln, NE pop 265,000
2003 Jason White Oklahoma Norman, OK pop 115,000
2006 Troy Smith Ohio State QB Columbus, OH pop 809,000
2007 Tim Tebow Florida Gainsville, FL pop 126,000
2008 Sam Bradford Oklahoma Norman, OK pop 115,000
2009 Mark Ingram Alabama Birminham, AL pop 212,000
2010 Cam Newton Auburn Auburn, AL pop 57,000
2011 Robert Griffin III Baylor University Waco, TX pop 127,000
2012 Johnny Manziel Texas A&M Bryan/College Station, TX pop 178,000
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Stop, too many facts
Let's be real, if you go to A&M it is no big deal to go party in Austin or Houston on the weekends, if that's what's drawing football players.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
It's not all about partying. Living in Southern California > living in Bryan, Texas in almost every possible way.
Stemp
Brew Master
Except that the locations of many BCS universities, including several long time winning programs, are more like Bryan/College Station than LA.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I don't disagree, just giving another advantage that USC has over those programs if they're drawn to the climate, lifestyle, etc of a Southern California.
I love Florida State, but if I had my choice as a recruit, I would pick USC for exactly that reason. I doubt I am alone.
Stemp
Brew Master
The point was people think you can't get as good talent to come to a&m because BCS is a small town and LA is LA. But many schools exist in small towns like BCS and they attract as good or better talent than USC.
So myth BUSTED
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
People are saying that it is a combination of a number of things that give USC better recruits and a better shot at a consistent winner.
So, no myth.
Stemp
Brew Master
LOL
So it went from "No Heisman winners would pick a school in a small town like BCS over LA" to "It's a combination of things gives USC better recruits".
Of course it's a combination of things, including the coach, the direction the program is headed, the system, the depth chart, where the school is in relation to his family, whether they want to be near their family or leave the state".
USC is in a state that is talent rich, just like A&M. But USC is headed down and A&M is headed up. A&M also has a recent Heisman winner. If you don't think it's important, look at Baylor and how their program has skyrocketed since RG3 left.
Not everyone is attracted to the lifestyle of LA or Southern California. Also, any coach who hasn't actively recruited CA, would have to start over making in-roads with HS coaches and still has to fight off schools like UCLA, Stanford, Cal and others.
Plus, succeeding at USC isn't a slam dunk just because it's USC and in LA, as Lane Kiffen thoroughly proved. Further, if a coach is successful and winning at the school he is at and the money is close (which it will be in Sumlin's case) then it certainly is reasonable for a coach to stick around and continue the success rather than try to rebuild a program that was flushed into the crapper.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
You could argue USC is headed up since they went on ahead and canned Kiffin.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Jeez, is this still being debated? The only thing for it is to wait and see what happens. If he leaves, he leaves. That's life and college football for you. If he stays, hooray.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Do you regularly combine two different peoples posts into one thought process?
Stemp
Brew Master
When they are agreeing and defending the same statement/idea.
You will never convince a true MAROON Aggie that
a. Most people/Coaches/Recruits would rather live in LA instead of B/CS. Even though if given his 1st choice Manziel, (You know the guy who has been responsible for bringing A&M all of this national acclaim) wouldn't be an Aggie had Mack recruited him. (Thanks Mack)
a. Most people/Coaches/Recruits would rather live in LA instead of B/CS. Even though if given his 1st choice Manziel, (You know the guy who has been responsible for bringing A&M all of this national acclaim) wouldn't be an Aggie had Mack recruited him. (Thanks Mack)
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
I think that's a pretty well known fact. He wanted to go to UT.
But UT's elite coach and elite recruiters failed to pick him up.
Why bother having an "a." if you don't have a "b." or a "c."
Personally I respect people who appreciate quiet small town living over the big city hustle.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I don't respect one group over another for their choice in residence but that doesn't really have anything to do with the point.
The point of my point about that point, is that just because more people would chose LA over CS, doesn't really make USC better than TAMU. There are several schools in LA, they aren't all better jobs than A&M for that reason.
I think USC is a better job. UCLA is a more comparable job. Both in LA.
Stemp
Brew Master
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
A&M just got a commit from another 5 star prospect.
I guess no one wants to play in C-Stat.
I guess no one wants to play in C-Stat.