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Is this the most talented team we've ever had ?
- Thread starter EllisUnit
- Start date
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Actually you are lying on me. I said you guys were "acting like" and plenty of you guys in here do every time you guys want to take shots at OB or any of the new players. Usually it all goes right back to Kubiak's two playoff teams he had out of like 8 years here. And in this very thread, you guys brought that squad up several times, and that that team is extremely overrated pretty much every time it gets brought up. They were a squad that won a ton of games, and then ended going 1-4. Not exactly one for the ages.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Yeah, pretty true. Lol!
We've got about 5 or 6 posters that are bound and determined to compare everything this regime does to Kubiak's best two seasons though. It would be nice if they'd let it go for sure. Its almost as if they think he is coming back if OB tanks in the next year or two. Kubiak is doing well in Denver, and I think he'll be a better coach over there. I'm starting to think that Rick Smith will be a better GM along side of OB as well. It would be nice for folks to just accept that we've got OB now, and realize that he's going to be here for quite a while most likely.
Way to weasel out.
The original question was "Is this the most talented team we've ever had?"
How the hell else can you make a "which squad is better" comparison without going year by year, roster by roster??
Please explain how else you can do that?
The Kubiak hate is strong with you.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Weasel out of what? Lol!
I never said you couldn't make the comparison. Hell, you could make the comparison to the first David Carr led Texans team for all I care. Knock yourself out. I'll still tell you how much more talented this team is.
Kubiak hate? You just now figuring that out?
Okay then. If you understand that we have every Texans' season to pick from, why the animosity when folks picked 2011??
And if you looked at my earlier post, I said this defense is, no question, the best we've ever had.
But the offense? Nope.
The only place they're head and shoulders above any previous Texans' edition is at WRs. Never had Fuller-like speed at WR before.
The O-line is worse.
This year's RBs can't compare to 2011 Foster and Tate (did I mention the two of them combined for 2100+ yds?).
TEs? Nope. OD and Dreesen had over 1000 yds and 7 TDs. If we get that kind of production from Fiedo, Graham, and Anderson I'll be pleasantly amazed.
QB? Not fair to judge Osweiler on just two games.
In fact, as someone posted above, we really should have this conversation at the end of the season when today's guys have put some actual numbers on the books. Potential/upside (whatever you want to call it) don't mean squat if it isn't converted into production.
And I must confess, that last sentence made me actually laugh out loud.
No, I guess I'm not really just now figuring that out.
Our WRs corps has never been this deep, I'll say that much.
We've never had so many legit pass rushers.
I love Cush, but I think for the first time ever, we're well prepared to go on without him.
I think we're bona-fide 4 deep in CBs & Hal looks legit.
Yeah, we're more talented than ever before.
We've never had so many legit pass rushers.
I love Cush, but I think for the first time ever, we're well prepared to go on without him.
I think we're bona-fide 4 deep in CBs & Hal looks legit.
Yeah, we're more talented than ever before.
Okay then. If you understand that we have every Texans' season to pick from, why the animosity when folks picked 2011??
And if you looked at my earlier post, I said this defense is, no question, the best we've ever had.
But the offense? Nope.
The only place they're head and shoulders above any previous Texans' edition is at WRs. Never had Fuller-like speed at WR before.
The O-line is worse.
This year's RBs can't compare to 2011 Foster and Tate (did I mention the two of them combined for 2100+ yds?).
TEs? Nope. OD and Dreesen had over 1000 yds and 7 TDs. If we get that kind of production from Fiedo, Graham, and Anderson I'll be pleasantly amazed.
QB? Not fair to judge Osweiler on just two games.
In fact, as someone posted above, we really should have this conversation at the end of the season when today's guys have put some actual numbers on the books. Potential/upside (whatever you want to call it) don't mean squat if it isn't converted into production.
And I must confess, that last sentence made me actually laugh out loud.
No, I guess I'm not really just now figuring that out.
The 2011 team had more star power, this team has more depth. More depth at LB/DB's on the OL. Can you imagine how the 2011 team would've looked without Myers/Brown for most if not all of the season.
good point.
Wasn't that the season when Alex Gibbs said that was the first time he'd had the same five O-line guys start every game for him in a season? Or was that earlier?
Perki-Perk
DieHard Texan!
Not re-signing Leach is the one of the worst moves ever...
With that said, I like this years Defense and WR corps. Until we get some run production out of this line, we can't really guage Miller vs Foster. Hell that 2011 line gave Foster and tate some great holes in that zone scheme, then we lost some of those guys. Until Os is more than 2 games in, we can't say he's even close to the numbers that pre injury Schaub put up. I mean, we can say it, but we'd be wrong.
Let's let it all play out. As I said, let's come off the gas a bit...
With that said, I like this years Defense and WR corps. Until we get some run production out of this line, we can't really guage Miller vs Foster. Hell that 2011 line gave Foster and tate some great holes in that zone scheme, then we lost some of those guys. Until Os is more than 2 games in, we can't say he's even close to the numbers that pre injury Schaub put up. I mean, we can say it, but we'd be wrong.
Let's let it all play out. As I said, let's come off the gas a bit...
Perki-Perk
DieHard Texan!
Oh, I'll also take my kids junior league special teams over anything coached by Joe whatever his name was with the nekked pics of someone's wife
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Not sure where you got the animosity part from. None at all.
Oline is hard to tell since our guys are all hurt, but they were probably a little better at that time than where we are now. We've sort of hit a period where we are rebuilding the Oline, where that 2011ish team was a line had been being built for several years in the making, and had finally hit their stride after years of being average at best. This off season, we focused more on skill players than we did in the trenches. I think this up coming off season will be an ugly "trenches" draft and mainly on the Oline part. I'll give you the RB's since we had Tate backing up Foster, but he was really only there for like one season where he was healthy and playing well behind Foster. He was always hurt, and when Foster got hurt and he got starter duties, Tate always looked like **** when he got those chances. TE's is fair to go to 2011 with OD alone. Our WR's are much better in this group and I'll take Oz over Schaub every day of the week and twice on Sundays. From a talent perspective, I think he is way better. I'll give you that the offense part is a lot closer than I originally said the more I broke it down.
We've only argued about that subject for like 8 years now come on!
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I don't know man... 2011 LBs were Mario, Barwin, Reed, Cushing, Demeco, Dobbins, Sharpton. That's a pretty good group. I actually prefer today's starters, but 2011's depth.
I prefer today's corners, but 2011's safeties.
And the OL depth wasn't that bad. Caldwell was ok as the backup C, and Butler did a good job when he filled in at LT during Duane's suspension.
banned1976
sleeper mode
For me it's too soon to tell. I saw the Jekyll and Hyde act last year. They looked like one of the worst Texans squad in the history of the franchise early and then (kind of, defense anyway) turned it around. I have no proof that they won't do the same this year only in reverse. They (with Kubiak) have done that too.
The only person on offense that I can safely say is just a notch better than his predecessor is Hopkins. I don't know (yet) if Brock is more talented than Schaub ever was and Lamar Miller is no Arian Foster. Owen Daniels was more talented than any TE we've had here, including now. In 2011 the Texans defense was 4th in the league with Watt, Ryans, Quin, a healthy (and younger) Cushing, J-Jo, KJ, Antonio Smith, Barwin, Brooks Reed and others. The only real weakness on that defense was Brice McCain. That defense allowed 20 total points in the first 2 weeks.
The only person on offense that I can safely say is just a notch better than his predecessor is Hopkins. I don't know (yet) if Brock is more talented than Schaub ever was and Lamar Miller is no Arian Foster. Owen Daniels was more talented than any TE we've had here, including now. In 2011 the Texans defense was 4th in the league with Watt, Ryans, Quin, a healthy (and younger) Cushing, J-Jo, KJ, Antonio Smith, Barwin, Brooks Reed and others. The only real weakness on that defense was Brice McCain. That defense allowed 20 total points in the first 2 weeks.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Given how little FBs play in the NFL hard to make that argument. He was a really good FB, but many snaps would he actually effect the game?
Prosch has been on the field for 18 snaps in 2 games or just 18%.
Fuller is certainly off to a good start! One of only three players in NFL history to have 100+ yard games in his first two starts.
I'm not going to put him above Nuk...yet. But I like the attitude.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Yep and the thing I love about Fuller is that he seems so even keel. I really like the mix of guys we have on the team right now.
I need Brock to play better and I need the running game to get better. If we do that I'd put us against anyone.
banned1976
sleeper mode
I guess I should have added Fuller is more talented than any #2WR that's donned a Texans uniform.
Hopkins has better hands than Fuller. He's just not averaging what, 24 yards per catch like Fuller? Something like that.
Well it's a much better conversation than we used to have about WRs. Remember those "when are they going to upgrade from Kevin Walter @ #2 WR?" "Yeah but he blocks so well in the running game" discussions.
Actually, I was being sarcastic. To say Fuller is better than Hopkins after two games is lIke saying DeAndre is better than Andre after three years.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Have Texans ever taken care of the Patriots in Foxboro?
Have Texans ever won a big match-up of undefeated teams on a Thursday, Sunday or Monday night football game?
If this team can accomplish these two tasks then for me it's an unqualified YES this is the Best Texan Team to date
Have Texans ever won a big match-up of undefeated teams on a Thursday, Sunday or Monday night football game?
If this team can accomplish these two tasks then for me it's an unqualified YES this is the Best Texan Team to date
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Calling it a matchup of undefeated teams after 2 games is a stretch.
Coming in on a 6 win streak and 11-1 for Monday night against NE was a bigger matchup.
Obviously winning would make this the better result.
Coming in on a 6 win streak and 11-1 for Monday night against NE was a bigger matchup.
Obviously winning would make this the better result.
banned1976
sleeper mode
I knew that. Believe it or not. But apparently we have different opinions on AJ vs Hopkins. Hopkins does something AJ had problems doing...catching TD's. 1st 3 years of AJ = 12 TD's. Hopkins = 19. They both had pretty crummy QB's, too.
The comparison of AJ vs Hopkins is real and valid. And if it can't be made, what's this thread for?
3 years in is a good sample size to compare Hopkins and AJ. Disagree? And no, comparing Fuller's 2 games versus Hopkin's 48 isn't the same as comparing AJ and Hopkins at this point.
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When comparing AJ's and Hopkins touchdowns you also have to compare the rest of the team. For most of the years that AJ was here we had Daniels and a coach that preferred to utilize him and backs in the red zone. Hopkins has had much much more opportunities than AJ had
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Any sample size which only includes Carr to AJ is bad, obviously bad.
AJ's 1st 3 the Texans had 8138 yds and 45 TDs
Hopkins 1st 3 the Texans had 10898 and 70 TDs
AJ's 1st 3 the Texans had 8138 yds and 45 TDs
Hopkins 1st 3 the Texans had 10898 and 70 TDs
beerlover
Hall of Fame
How did that 11-1 team fare?
Exactly. Don't even have to throw in undefeated part, after only two games but why not, it's a fact.
We all realize it's a stretch to call this the best Texan team in franchise history after only two games period but we've been waiting for real gold, not fools gold long enough to know there is a real high ceiling for this Texan team.
Don't be a party pooper or Debbie downer just drink the damn Koop aid and like it!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
If I was really trying to be a downer I would have mentioned we started 2-0 in 2013.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
You just did
Where is the dislike button
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Dont put that on me Ricky bobby......
Yes, I disagree.
It's like saying Willie Parker was better than Emmitt Smith.
Most people will probably say who is Willie Parker.
Andre compares to the greatest that ever played the game. We're crossing our fingers that Hopkins can deliver a 4th year of elite play.
You can argue that Hopkins first three years were better than Andre's first three years, but the average nfl career is six years. Part of what made Andre great is that he was elite (with less than elite QBs/teams) for 10 years.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
In hindsight Hopkins had Hoyer, Mallet, yates, and Weeden last year.....I mean hard to get much worse and still have those numbers.
Scooter
Funky
I favored Hopkins in the comparison earlier in this thread, but let's not get out of hand. Andre started with an expansion team, David Carr, Dom Capers and no #2. He then moved to an expansion restart, Matt Schaub, Gary Kubiak (tightends in the redzone) and no #2. There's hardly an apples to apples argument to be made because Andre did an insane amount of work nearly by himself - 'too big, too strong, too fast ... we knew it was going to Andre and had 3 guys covering him and it didn't matter'. That was said by a Dolphins' player. What Andre didn't do was get featured in the redzone, his size and threat and famous blocking talent made him more of a decoy than a target.
The most apt part of that discussion is Andre breaking down one of his touchdowns on an NFL Network show. He was lined up short-split on one side and his assignment to block, he broke assignment based on his own read and ran a cross that Schaub saw after his initial target for an easy touchdown. We could get JJ Watt open on a play action but couldn't get Andre? He disproved that, dude could've had considerably more TD's if he were used as an endzone target - as well as more leads from Schaub than the famous underthrows. Talent doesn't favor one over the other - it's purely opportunities.
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Scooter
Funky
Addendum to my previous post, since it also pertains to the current HOF vote. We vary on how often it happened, but there were multiple years that Andre Johnson was the best at his position. Hopkins is a monster, and benefiting from O'Brien's 'float it to the sideline' route schemes, but Hopkins' best year has him in the top 5. Being undisputed #1 is something he hasn't reached yet, nor reached that height across the better part of a decade.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
Have Texans ever taken care of the Patriots in Foxboro?
Have Texans ever won a big match-up of undefeated teams on a Thursday, Sunday or Monday night football game?
If this team can accomplish these two tasks then for me it's an unqualified YES this is the Best Texan Team to date
Last year Primetime game vs undefeated Bengals at their house comes to mind....
sandman
Brexit Advisor
AJ TD's first two seasons: 10
Nuk TD's first two seasons: 8
AJ TD's third season: 2 (missed three games)
Nuk TD's third season: 11
Narrative: Nuk is doing something AJ had problems doing.
[ Rare Post 
]
TALENT of 2016 Texans team is better ON PAPER for all-aroundness over the 2011. Its '16 has more "wild-cards" that potentially adds big punch like Clowney, young WR corp 2 thru 5, McKinney, etc.
- 2011 had more elite stars at 9.0+ rating, (Foster, Andre, Duane Brown, Joseph, Mario if healthy). 2016 has elites Watt and Hopkins with more all-around 7.5+'s each position UNIT, and more 6.5+'s as backups behind them.
- 2011 O-line was just a solid experienced unit. 2016 has some O-line issues that cant be overlooked, its not a good unit.
- If you combine both WR's-TE's together, 2016 has better WR than 2011 but it evens back out with 2011 superior TE depth. Fuller & Braxton's playmaking along with Hopkins can potentially make up for the TE deficit. WR 2 thru 5 are ROOKIES and inexperienced 2nd year players though, including TE Stephen Anderson so this is definitely "on-paper" until they show more consistently.
Actual PRODUCTION, going INTO a season I'll take the 2011 team's success and production of 4 times out of 5 over current team. Bonus credibility is given to current team because its comparing to the "shakiness / mismanagment" of Kubiak and Schaub, saying that BO'B and Brock can CONCEIVABLY do what they cant.
Whats unfair to the 2011 is saying "They CRASHED at the end, so what?" Though all of BO'B's teams had big crashes to BEGIN the season, the same kind that was also held against Kubiak (and BO'B). Which one is worse really, great with regressing at the end, or not even having your team prepared to start with panic and desparation setting in?
Also guys from 2011 went and WON Super Bowl rings elsewhere. In harsh terms, Kubiak & Crew and Jacoby just about middle-fingered Houston. Despite their lows being WAY low on the Texans, it shows the 2011 personnel and pieces WERE capable of winning it, which is the point of talent to begin with
Back to TALENT, 2016 Texans have SB potential ironically similar to Kubiak's Broncos, with stout defense and just enough on offense to move the chains and keep the D off the field. There's a couple too many unknowns on 2016 offense, though the great thing is its all young players at the skill positions that can improve as they go.
]TALENT of 2016 Texans team is better ON PAPER for all-aroundness over the 2011. Its '16 has more "wild-cards" that potentially adds big punch like Clowney, young WR corp 2 thru 5, McKinney, etc.
- 2011 had more elite stars at 9.0+ rating, (Foster, Andre, Duane Brown, Joseph, Mario if healthy). 2016 has elites Watt and Hopkins with more all-around 7.5+'s each position UNIT, and more 6.5+'s as backups behind them.
- 2011 O-line was just a solid experienced unit. 2016 has some O-line issues that cant be overlooked, its not a good unit.
- If you combine both WR's-TE's together, 2016 has better WR than 2011 but it evens back out with 2011 superior TE depth. Fuller & Braxton's playmaking along with Hopkins can potentially make up for the TE deficit. WR 2 thru 5 are ROOKIES and inexperienced 2nd year players though, including TE Stephen Anderson so this is definitely "on-paper" until they show more consistently.
Actual PRODUCTION, going INTO a season I'll take the 2011 team's success and production of 4 times out of 5 over current team. Bonus credibility is given to current team because its comparing to the "shakiness / mismanagment" of Kubiak and Schaub, saying that BO'B and Brock can CONCEIVABLY do what they cant.
Whats unfair to the 2011 is saying "They CRASHED at the end, so what?" Though all of BO'B's teams had big crashes to BEGIN the season, the same kind that was also held against Kubiak (and BO'B). Which one is worse really, great with regressing at the end, or not even having your team prepared to start with panic and desparation setting in?
Also guys from 2011 went and WON Super Bowl rings elsewhere. In harsh terms, Kubiak & Crew and Jacoby just about middle-fingered Houston. Despite their lows being WAY low on the Texans, it shows the 2011 personnel and pieces WERE capable of winning it, which is the point of talent to begin with
Back to TALENT, 2016 Texans have SB potential ironically similar to Kubiak's Broncos, with stout defense and just enough on offense to move the chains and keep the D off the field. There's a couple too many unknowns on 2016 offense, though the great thing is its all young players at the skill positions that can improve as they go.
[ Rare Post
TALENT of 2016 Texans team is better ON PAPER for all-aroundness over the 2011. Its '16 has more "wild-cards" that potentially adds big punch like Clowney, young WR corp 2 thru 5, McKinney, etc.
- 2011 had more elite stars at 9.0+ rating, (Foster, Andre, Duane Brown, Joseph, Mario if healthy). 2016 has elites Watt and Hopkins with more all-around 7.5+'s each position UNIT, and more 6.5+'s as backups behind them.
- 2011 O-line was just a solid experienced unit. 2016 has some O-line issues that cant be overlooked, its not a good unit.
- If you combine both WR's-TE's together, 2016 has better WR than 2011 but it evens back out with 2011 superior TE depth. Fuller & Braxton's playmaking along with Hopkins can potentially make up for the TE deficit. WR 2 thru 5 are ROOKIES and inexperienced 2nd year players though, including TE Stephen Anderson so this is definitely "on-paper" until they show more consistently.
Actual PRODUCTION, going INTO a season I'll take the 2011 team's success and production of 4 times out of 5 over current team. Bonus credibility is given to current team because its comparing to the "shakiness / mismanagment" of Kubiak and Schaub, saying that BO'B and Brock can CONCEIVABLY do what they cant.
Whats unfair to the 2011 is saying "They CRASHED at the end, so what?" Though all of BO'B's teams had big crashes to BEGIN the season, the same kind that was also held against Kubiak (and BO'B). Which one is worse really, great with regressing at the end, or not even having your team prepared to start with panic and desparation setting in?
Also guys from 2011 went and WON Super Bowl rings elsewhere. In harsh terms, Kubiak & Crew and Jacoby just about middle-fingered Houston. Despite their lows being WAY low on the Texans, it shows the 2011 personnel and pieces WERE capable of winning it, which is the point of talent to begin with
Back to TALENT, 2016 Texans have SB potential ironically similar to Kubiak's Broncos, with stout defense and just enough on offense to move the chains and keep the D off the field. There's a couple too many unknowns on 2016 offense, though the great thing is its all young players at the skill positions that can improve as they go.
The 2011 teams OL stayed healthy for the entire yr. The 2016 teams OL wasn't healthy for the 1st game and wont be all yr.
As far as would you rather your team peak at the begining of the yr or the end of the yr. Give me the end of the yr every time, because they play the SB at the end of the yr. Kubiak's biggest issue was he couldn't get his Texans teams to play their best ball at the time that championships are won.
BTW, isn't it great that the 2016 team is a young and up and coming team and we're having this discussion?
To add to that, teams play differently at the end of the year. Playoffs are on the line. Seeding is on the line. Coaches jobs are on the line.
Before Thanksgiving, it's just a game. After Thanksgiving, every game matters.
IMO, that's why teams like the Bucs, Raiders, Lions, Jags... sometimes they look good before Thanksgiving. But finish the year below .500
Kubiak on the other hand, we usually started poor & finished strong.... 5-7, wasn't that his deal?
It was up until 2013...
banned1976
sleeper mode
I'm not going to wait 6 years to offer an opinion on who the more talented receiver was/has been for this team. Andre was a great receiver, HOF. But I have seen DeAndre for 3 years + 2 games make one amazing play after another. AJ was gifted with superior size. Hopkins is gifted with making impossible catches seem routine. He's breaking ankles out there.
Hopefully I haven't derailed this thread too much. But this thread is about talent (not longevity) and it's going to be close when you have, my opinion only, two of the greatest wide receivers in modern football history. AJ was considered one of the best in his prime and so is Hopkins. They're different, though so it's subjective which one is more talented than the other.
Let's revisit the subject in 3 years?
butters
Practice Squad
Like I said. If you want to argue Nuk is more talented than Andre, I get it. I'm on your side.
But you said DeAndre is better. Not more talented. Semantics, maybe (I tend to argue the minutia).
My mistake, if that's all you meant, that Hopkins is more talented.
ummm... two words:
David
Carr