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Is Mathews a reach at 15?

Is Mathews a reach at 15?

  • yes

    Votes: 49 46.7%

  • no

    Votes: 56 53.3%
  • Total voters
    105
infantrycak said:
Seems I saw reports having him go higher, but I think the issue with him was size an inside running game rather than poor workout..
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This is what I wrote:
Guys that were good in college, but didn't have great workouts/measurements slipping and becoming major steals?
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The point is that he was an excellent college player that slipped due to reasons not directly related to his actual on field play.



Babin wasn't a pro-day riser--he was a Capers/Casserly system reach
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Deceptively strong and puts up good numbers in the weight room. One of the fastest defensive ends at the Combine and turned in a great workout.
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/48367.html

Babin was atleast in the top 5 in his group in all of the running type drills. Couldn't find his bench. Babin went to Western Michigan. He was a good player there, but you don't come out of wester Michigan and have an NFL team move up to draft you if you don't put up good combine #'s and have good measurements.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
I was very impressed with Matthews coverage... this from his pro day though, not film He's got the athletecism and play recognition to turn and get backfield and make the catch/deflection. That's what separates him from the other DE/LBs for me. The others probably can't (Orakpo, Brown, Maybin, etc.).
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I'd be more impressed had he done more in coverage on the field. No interceptions for the guy in his USC career. It's one thing to catch the ball in a drill where you and the QB are the only guys out there. It's another thing to put yourself in the right position, fight off receivers, and make a catch in a football game.

I guess I am just a big "on the field" type of guy. Workouts don't really impress me.

I know tons of people who can catch a ball while we warm up, but when we start playing the guy can't catch. I'm not saying that's how Matthews is, I am just pointing out that catching the ball in a drill and catching the ball in a game are two completely different things.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Whoever the player is we choose at 15 is going to be considered a reach.....by most fans. Especially this year's 1st round.
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Totally agree, I think fans are going to flip out whoever it is. Any defensive guy will probably be considered a reach. And if it's an offensive player like a RB or WR, people will criticize it because we NEEDED defense.

There will probably be 20% on here that will be happy with the pick, probably 30% that are thinking 'meh, what else could we have done' and 50% that will threaten to sell their season tickets, "again".
 
TexansSeminole said:
I'd be more impressed had he done more in coverage on the field. No interceptions for the guy in his USC career. It's one thing to catch the ball in a drill where you and the QB are the only guys out there. It's another thing to put yourself in the right position, fight off receivers, and make a catch in a football game.

I guess I am just a big "on the field" type of guy. Workouts don't really impress me.

I know tons of people who can catch a ball while we warm up, but when we start playing the guy can't catch. I'm not saying that's how Matthews is, I am just pointing out that catching the ball in a drill and catching the ball in a game are two completely different things.
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Totally agree with you on game film and "on the field". As I wrote in another thread regarding interceptions:
Ole Miss Texan said:
Not trying to make excuses but Matthews was exceptional at rushing the passer and that's what Carrol had him doing most of the time. Hard to get interception when you're in the backfield the majority of the time.
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Pro day video- Matthews is on the 2nd one.
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/shows...ams/pathtothedraft&subjectType=pathtothedraft
 
Mr teX said:
Mathews shouldn't be penalized for production b/c his body developed later than some others essentially prohibiting him from getting on the field as a starter earlier. & the major reason he was valued as an early 2nd rounder was b/c of his lack of production.

I think some in here are valuing 1 aspect of these guys' college careers more (size, speed, production) over another & are dismissing them if they don't fit in their box. The reality of it is, none of us know how these guys will fit in the pros b/c too many things matter...what scheme you get into, how you're used & stability of the franchise.
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Personally I could care less about his career.

All I know is that this past season he wasn't anything spectacular.
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
Totally agree, I think fans are going to flip out whoever it is. Any defensive guy will probably be considered a reach. And if it's an offensive player like a RB or WR, people will criticize it because we NEEDED defense.

There will probably be 20% on here that will be happy with the pick, probably 30% that are thinking 'meh, what else could we have done' and 50% that will threaten to sell their season tickets, "again".
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I'd most likely be in this group.

Most know my stance on the 1st round pick, but I'd have a hard time getting upset if we were to pick a RB or an Olineman in this years 1st round. The talent simply isn't there this year. I'm actually looking forward to rounds 2-5 more so than round 1.

Then again, I don't recall ever getting upset on the day of the draft. Yes, that includes 06 as well.
 
I'm not dogging Matthews, but he's one of those guys who can make great plays and also give up big plays.

He still needs to learn the game.
Let's take an example of a late game against UCLA (last regular season game).

3rd and 11 at the Trojans 21.
The Bruins in single backfield, TE strong right.
3 wides to their left.

USC rushed 4.
3 CBs on the right to cover the 3 receivers (actually one WR was in motion so the DB had to follow him to the other side.)
The SS play behind them.
Mauluaga stays in the middle to spy on either the QB or the RB (if he comes this way.)
The FS play back to check either the TE or RB if they release out of the backfield.
Same with Matthews.
He has to know that when the TE releases first, the FS has to pick up that guy.
That would leave him with the RB.

The TE ran a post route, taking the FS with him to the middle.
The RB ran a flag pattern to the outside.
Matthews either forgot or did not know his assignment.
And no speed, nor athleticisim, nor skill would help him there.

A quick lateral pass to the WR who launched a poorly thrown pass to the corner. Underthrown. Still, since Matthews was beaten so badly, he couldn't recover in time. TD.

Mays tried his best and might have had a chance, but Matthews tackling from behind only helped push the RB into the endzone.
(It looks like Mays could have brought down the guy short of the goal line after I rewound the tape a few times.)
 
76Texan said:
I'm not dogging Matthews, but he's one of those guys who can make great plays and also give up big plays.

He still needs to learn the game.
Let's take an example of a late game against UCLA (last regular season game).

3rd and 11 at the Trojans 21.
The Bruins in single backfield, TE strong right.
3 wides to their left.

USC rushed 4.
3 CBs on the right to cover the 3 receivers (actually one WR was in motion so the DB had to follow him to the other side.)
The SS play behind them.
Mauluaga stays in the middle to spy on either the QB or the RB (if he comes this way.)
The FS play back to check either the TE or RB if they release out of the backfield.
Same with Matthews.
He has to know that when the TE releases first, the FS has to pick up that guy.
That would leave him with the RB.

The TE ran a post route, taking the FS with him to the middle.
The RB ran a flag pattern to the outside.
Matthews either forgot or did not know his assignment.
And no speed, nor athleticisim, nor skill would help him there.

A quick lateral pass to the WR who launched a poorly thrown pass to the corner. Underthrown. Still, since Matthews was beaten so badly, he couldn't recover in time. TD.

Mays tried his best and might have had a chance, but Matthews tackling from behind only helped push the RB into the endzone.
(It looks like Mays could have brought down the guy short of the goal line after I rewound the tape a few times.)
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y could do this with every player in the draft......many times over at that.
 
Goatcheese said:
If he is such an amazing pass rusher why did he only have 3 solo sacks, and 3 assists? That's terrible for a guy playing DE.
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That's a pretty good question and should be looked at closely by our scouts when examining his worth to this team.

I will say USC is littered with talent and the stats back that up. Here's what I could find for 2008:

LB: Clay Matthews- 9.0 TFL, 4.5 sacks

By Position:
DTs: 19.5 TFL, 6.0 sacks
DEs: 18.0 TFL, 12.0 sacks
LBs*: 35.5 TFL, 8.5 sacks
DBs: 18.5 TFL, 2.5 sacks
*note that Matthews is listed as a lineback although he lined up as a DE a lot.

Top Players by TFL:
LB Cushing- 10.5
DT Moaloa- 10.0
DE Moore- 9.5
LB Matthews- 9.0
LB Maiava- 7.5
DE Griffen- 6.0

Top Players by Sacks:
DE Moore- 5.0
LB Matthews- 4.5
DE Griffen- 4.5
DT Maola- 4.5
LB Cushing- 3.0

As you can see, the stats are spread out pretty well. Everson Griffen is being talked about as a highly rated DE prospect for next years draft and Clay had better stats. Looking at all the top players on the USC defense, it doesn't seem Matthews did too poorly.
 
76Texan said:
I did mention the Oregon and the Oregon St games, didn't I?
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You probably did in some other thread, but it still doesn't mean you couldn't do the same with each & every player every year in the draft; top prospect or not. Qb's are the easiest targets by this logic. Every Int they threw you could say "see...".
 
Polo said:
Oh my bad.. I probably just read it wrong...
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Nah, when you type all day, your eyes dont work all the time. Mario had shown enough to be a high pick coming in to the process. What he did at the Combine, ect... blew it away. With a bad work out he was top 10. Matthews would be a 4th round pick with a hick up in a work out. Those guys scare me.
 
Mr teX said:
You probably did in some other thread, but it still doesn't mean you couldn't do the same with each & every player every year in the draft; top prospect or not. Qb's are the easiest targets by this logic. Every Int they threw you could say "see...".
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OK, I've reviewed the following USC games:

Virginia (1st game starter at QB), Ohio St (without Wells), Oregon St. (first time starter at QB, a Fr RB, I think he's something like 5'6-5'7, 175 lbs from right here at Lamar), Oregon (another first time starter at QB, a Soph), Notre Dame (rebuilding) , UCLA (4-8), Penn St.

The games I didn't watch, 4 of them were against ducklings (Az. St., Stanford, Wash, Wash. St.)
Only Cal. and Az had winning records, and by the look of it, Matthews didn't have such good productions against them.

I don't see how Matthews can be rated #15.
I have a hard time convincing myself he belongs in the first round.

I'm not too high on all the USC LBs, not just Matthews.
Now after the combine and pro-day and stuff, (which is not Mauluga strength), maybe I can see them all in the lower first round.
I don't see any of them to be like Demeco.
In fact, if they are first rounders, Adibi should be a high-to-mid 2nd rounder.

The logic here is at #15, you should very likely start day 1 (effectively, depending on position, and the guys around you.)

At SAM, you ought to be able to take on the TEs and some linemen, either because you're strong enough or you have good technique and leverage.
At WILL, you ough to be able to get by them with your quickness, agility, and so forth.

As OLB, you ought to be able to make the read in coverage, whether your assignment or the developing play calls for checking on the FB, RB, TE, or occasionally a WR.

As a mid first-rounder, I expect that you can perform those tasks well, especially when the competition is not that good.

To say that Matthews is strong at the POA or doesn't get caught in the trash is to say that Adibi had no problem there.
And Matthews does not have the coverage skills of Adibi. He's not as instinctive either, and he's not quicker. (All this is from the games I watch Adibi play at VTech.)
 
Mr teX said:
You probably did in some other thread, but it still doesn't mean you couldn't do the same with each & every player every year in the draft; top prospect or not. Qb's are the easiest targets by this logic. Every Int they threw you could say "see...".[/QUOTE]

Also, if you read the Dan Orlovsky thread, I said he's a decent QB.
I mentioned that none of his 8 Ints last year was a bad mistake.

I didn't elaborate, but they would be of these sorts:
3rd and long, last play of the half or the game, hail-mary.
WR slips.
When you're down by a bunch, an Int. deep in ennemy's territority is just as good as a punt, an excellent punt at that.

So you see, I don't make any QB an easy target.
Nor do I make any prospect an easy target! :cool:
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76Texans, thanks for the insight!

Since Matthews played towards the LOS a decent amount, what were your impressions of him fighting the linemen and/or the TEs (ie Matthews being a Sam for us)?
 
Ole Miss Texan said:
76Texans, thanks for the insight!

Since Matthews played towards the LOS a decent amount, what were your impressions of him fighting the linemen and/or the TEs (ie Matthews being a Sam for us)?
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Needs lotsa works! Which is understandable. He hasn't been playing LB for long. He can win a fews and showed some strength, but he will have problems at the pro level, at least initially!
 
I think strength is the one worry about Matthews I have. He has put on quite a few pounds since his freshman year though and I think with pro-strength trainers/body fully maturing he'll be fine as long as he doesn't lose that burst.

Hypothetical: If he makes it to say, 260-265 lbs. would you consider him a situational speed rusher at DE? That's clearly the role that puts him where he is now.
 
TimeKiller said:
I think strength is the one worry about Matthews I have. He has put on quite a few pounds since his freshman year though and I think with pro-strength trainers/body fully maturing he'll be fine as long as he doesn't lose that burst.

Hypothetical: If he makes it to say, 260-265 lbs. would you consider him a situational speed rusher at DE? That's clearly the role that puts him where he is now.
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As far as I know, USC has a very good S&C program but I too think once he gets in the pros, he'll add more muscle. More core muscle and squats, etc. should do the trick.

The bolded is what intruiges me and why I have always been high on Matthews and what I'm hoping for. I would love for him to be our SLB. On passing downs, the Sam usually comes off the field so the position is kind of devalued, if you will. I'm hoping with Matthews, he could double as our pass rush specialist. He jumps to the line and we throw a DB in the game. This is one reason why I think Matthews value is up.

I think he can add some more muscle, but how much I don't know- he just looks like he can bulk up more. Cushing looks maxed out to me.
 
Polo said:
Personally I could care less about his career.

All I know is that this past season he wasn't anything spectacular.
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What is youre definition of special?????

76Texan said:
I'm not dogging Matthews, but he's one of those guys who can make great plays and also give up big plays.

He still needs to learn the game.
Let's take an example of a late game against UCLA (last regular season game).

3rd and 11 at the Trojans 21.
The Bruins in single backfield, TE strong right.
3 wides to their left.

USC rushed 4.
3 CBs on the right to cover the 3 receivers (actually one WR was in motion so the DB had to follow him to the other side.)
The SS play behind them.
Mauluaga stays in the middle to spy on either the QB or the RB (if he comes this way.)
The FS play back to check either the TE or RB if they release out of the backfield.
Same with Matthews.
He has to know that when the TE releases first, the FS has to pick up that guy.
That would leave him with the RB.

The TE ran a post route, taking the FS with him to the middle.
The RB ran a flag pattern to the outside.
Matthews either forgot or did not know his assignment.
And no speed, nor athleticisim, nor skill would help him there.

A quick lateral pass to the WR who launched a poorly thrown pass to the corner. Underthrown. Still, since Matthews was beaten so badly, he couldn't recover in time. TD.

Mays tried his best and might have had a chance, but Matthews tackling from behind only helped push the RB into the endzone.
(It looks like Mays could have brought down the guy short of the goal line after I rewound the tape a few times.)
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No offense but how do you know what defensive play was called and what Mathews responsibilities were on that or any other play for that matter????

76Texan said:
Needs lotsa works! Which is understandable. He hasn't been playing LB for long. He can win a fews and showed some strength, but he will have problems at the pro level, at least initially!
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Name another player that will be available at 15 that doesnt need work and wont have problems at the pro level, at least initially.
 
I'm the biggest (and probably only) Trojans fan here and I wouldn't want either Matthews or Cush in the first, though I would take Rey Rey

Cush is a warrior but the steroid rumors bother me. His injury history is a little bothersome

I love Clay, just not in the first. In the second I would take him, especially since his combine stats match his motor. I think his last name jacks him up in the eyes of Texans fans
 
The1ApplePie said:
I'm the biggest (and probably only) Trojans fan here and I wouldn't want either Matthews or Cush in the first, though I would take Rey Rey

Cush is a warrior but the steroid rumors bother me. His injury history is a little bothersome

I love Clay, just not in the first. In the second I would take him, especially since his combine stats match his motor. I think his last name jacks him up in the eyes of Texans fans
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You think Texans fans going homo-erotic about Mathews being the long, hard peg that needs to fit in our soft round hole is going a little too far?

Who'da thunk it? :whip:
 
The1ApplePie said:
I'm the biggest (and probably only) Trojans fan here and I wouldn't want either Matthews or Cush in the first, though I would take Rey Rey

Cush is a warrior but the steroid rumors bother me. His injury history is a little bothersome

I love Clay, just not in the first. In the second I would take him, especially since his combine stats match his motor. I think his last name jacks him up in the eyes of Texans fans
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Then you should give it up as far as evaluating tallent goes. If you watched them for three years.....and you're saying now that none of them are going to go in the first round, you either don't have a clue or.....

the linebacker who will drop is Rey.....sorry.
 
I too feel that Mathews is a reach at 15, despite his climbing up the board. We reached last year. Teams reach every year in drafts. With this being said, the Texans may have him rated so high that in their eyes he would NOT be a reach at 15. Just because Mayock or Kiper or us fans, have him at a certain grade, doesn't mean the Texans have him at the same grade, or other teams for that matter.:fans:
 
rarazz00 said:
I too feel that Mathews is a reach at 15, despite his climbing up the board. We reached last year. Teams reach every year in drafts. With this being said, the Texans may have him rated so high that in their eyes he would NOT be a reach at 15. Just because Mayock or Kiper or us fans, have him at a certain grade, doesn't mean the Texans have him at the same grade, or other teams for that matter.:fans:
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Most mocks have Ayers going mid to late second round and then there are a couple of mocks that have Ayers going top 15 or top 10.

Every team creates their own board with their own rankings. And all the "experts" have their boards. Reaches are defined by the experts because a team's board didn't match with that particular expert's board. But really, a player is only a reach if that team's ranking of the player they pick don't match how every other team ranks that player so that the player would be available at that team's next pick. And there's no way to know that.

So, to me, the whole concept of a reach is intrinsically misguided because it places emphasis on the expert's board instead of the boards of the teams and the boards of the teams are the only boards that matter and they're not known.

The draft is a constant gamble because you've got to match up your board/player rankings with your needs and you've got to take a risk on whether other teams are going to take the guys you want before you want to take them. The one thing I've learned doing multi-player mocks is that there are times when there are players you are sure aren't going to drop to you, but they do and then there are times that you're sure you're going to get your guy, but they get picked up before you expect them to go.

So, if Matthews is the guy that the Texans want and they don't think he's going to be available at 46 (and they can't trade back), then they have to take him at 15 and calling that a reach is silly because they want him more than any of the other guys they could take at that spot.

But that's just me.
 
A reach is only a reach if you could have gotten that guy with a later pick.
 
Based on his proday 40 time and combine 10 yard times, I am not sure he still still there at 15. So the idea of reach or not might be mute.
 
The Pencil Neck said:
Most mocks have Ayers going mid to late second round and then there are a couple of mocks that have Ayers going top 15 or top 10.

Every team creates their own board with their own rankings. And all the "experts" have their boards. Reaches are defined by the experts because a team's board didn't match with that particular expert's board. But really, a player is only a reach if that team's ranking of the player they pick don't match how every other team ranks that player so that the player would be available at that team's next pick. And there's no way to know that.

So, to me, the whole concept of a reach is intrinsically misguided because it places emphasis on the expert's board instead of the boards of the teams and the boards of the teams are the only boards that matter and they're not known.

The draft is a constant gamble because you've got to match up your board/player rankings with your needs and you've got to take a risk on whether other teams are going to take the guys you want before you want to take them. The one thing I've learned doing multi-player mocks is that there are times when there are players you are sure aren't going to drop to you, but they do and then there are times that you're sure you're going to get your guy, but they get picked up before you expect them to go.

So, if Matthews is the guy that the Texans want and they don't think he's going to be available at 46 (and they can't trade back), then they have to take him at 15 and calling that a reach is silly because they want him more than any of the other guys they could take at that spot.

But that's just me.
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PN...I see what your saying...I was basically saying that in short...though you phrased it way better than what I could...lol...either way some(fans) will ***** and some will be elated..I'll just be happy if whomever we pick Kicks Ass!!!(though I do have my preferences)...:texflag:
 
http://blogs.chron.com/nfl/2009/04/nfl_combine_positive_drug_test.html

John McClain 04/18/09

On Monday, every NFL team receives the report on which players tested positive for what at the Indianapolis scouting combine. There are uncomfirmed reports that the number could be as high as 26 players.

It's amazing, isn't it, that players can test positive for things like majijuana and steroids at the combine when they know a year ahead of time they're going to be tested. Unbelievable, actually.

Now, when the reports come in, the names will leak out because every team receives it. Nothing will be released because it's supposed to be confidential. I don't know why. To me, if a player is dumb enough to test positive at the combine, it should be officially released.

Next week, every team will know just about everything about a prospect. NFL security digs deep. I know some teams that hire private investigators if they're picking high in the first round because they want to know everything possible before they invest millions and millions on a player.
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Maybe if they trade down and get better value but not at 15. I don't think they'll take Cushing, either way. I'm more convinced they're going to trade down for the second year in a row, and I do believe teams will want their pick for a variety of players who might be available.
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