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Is JJ going to be looking for a new team?

V

V Man

Pumpkinhead
Is the writing on the wall for JJ Moses? The Texans drafted Duff,-DB and puped his return abilities. Then drafted Lord-DB and said should help in special teams. And finally unsigned UFA, Starling-WR, a speedster with return skills. (Also, I believe that the Texans have one or two more WR/Returners in NFLE, but I can't remember their names)

To me it looks like the Texans want to find a returner who can help the team in other areas, which Moses can't.
 
It looks to me like they want to have a "Take it to the house" threat and JJ is that guy. However, he very consistantly gives us good field position on the kickoff which is VERY important. I think the pre-season will show if there is one of the new guys that can be that consistant and still be a homerun threat.
 
Punt/Kickoff return is one of the most dangerous positions to play. Guys are trying to take their heads off at full speed. You need more than a few return guys. If jj goes down, then we have more than enough to fill until he gets back. The last thing you want is to be out of return guys. People fumbling the ball everytime they try to catch it. oy, that would be bad.
 
the most important thing is feild position, if jj is or isnt the man i say have at least one or two to back him. what can go wrong there. You have a practice squad like a baseball bull pen, pick someone out :banana:
 
I thought JJ showed some flashes, but he did not have the top end speed of a Dante Hall. I think the Texans would like the moves of a JJ with the speed of a Bradford. Maybe they are hoping that someone the pack will possess those skills. I think if they find one solid returner and a potential backup, then JJ might not be here for too long.
 
if nothing else.. if they can find someone who can handle the punt returns better.. JJ is still a great kick returner.

I know that would tie up too spots on the roster.. im not saying it would be along term answer.. but possible a short term if no one really comes forth as the best guy.
 
I think Sloan Thomas or the undrafted free agent, Kendrick Starling, could compete for the returning duties if they make the team.
 
Texan281 said:
I think Sloan Thomas or the undrafted free agent, Kendrick Starling, could compete for the returning duties if they make the team.
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Casserly was talking up the fact that Duff excelled at both kick and punt returns and how rare that was--better throw him in the mix as well.
 
I hope they keep JJ around I really enjoyed his returns. He may not get a large number of TD's, but his average return is solid and he helped the Texans when the field position battle in a few games.
 
Casserly was talking up the fact that Duff excelled at both kick and punt returns and how rare that was--better throw him in the mix as well
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He is definately in the mix, but if I remember correctly I read that he lacked breakaway speed, which is the knock on JJ. I have tried to find the information that I read, but I have not been sucessful. In other words, I have not convinced myself that it was him that I was reading about... :confused:
 
From www.otcdraft.com:

Vontez Duff is a very agressive player who plays faster than his times would indicate. He has good strength and quickness, which allows him to be a good punt returner as well as a good cornerback. He's a big time playmaker who is always looking to get the ball in his hands and take it back for 6. He's probably never going to be a great starter in the NFL, but he could be a very good nickel back. He could excel in a Cover-2 situation where he has help over the top to compensate for his lack of pure speed. He's the perfect pick for a team like Tampa Bay or Indianapolis. Expect him to go in the late third or fourth
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Pretty good pick if you ask me, considering where we got him. But note the sentence about lack of speed. I think he will have to be even more elusive than JJ to take his job. JJ's job is for the taking, but I'm not sure who will take it. Might be Vontez, might not be.
 
I may be in the minority here but I think that JJ might very well be done. Now I know he's exciting to watch and had some very good returns last year. I was waiting for him to break one just like everyone else but I also spent a lot of time watching many of his returns come back on penalties and that stuck with me. JJ creates during returns like a madman. He's changing directions all over the place and zipping around guys so quickly that I really think for him to be most effective a return team is going to have to work with him a couple of seasons to get a feel for how he does things.

Right now I think any good kick returner with some speed and a more conventional approach to running back the ball is going to have a good shot at beating him out of this job.

I like JJ so don't get me wrong about this. I just think that the Texans are going to go in a different direction.
 
I suspect JJ is done also, but thought he did a pretty good job last year and it will be more because of roster spots and his style than his production.

His punt return avg is certainly suspect, but I am curious if that was more him or the coverage support. His kick return average was 11th in the league--one extra yard on average would have put him in 6th to give you an idea of how bunched they were. He had a lot of his above average returns brought back on penalties. His run style, like Dante Hall's, encourages penalties because of all his changes in direction. Hall obviously got away with some non-calls--that return the week after our game comes to mind where there were at least three visable non-calls. Not sure if that is something that can be cured by experience with him and the blockers though.

Consistant field position is far more important than home-run threat IMO. Home-runs are overrated and rare. Only 9 KR's scored at all last year and only 2 KR's had 2 TD's--i.e. 11 TD's total out of over 1100 kicks returned.

All that said, I suspect that if a WR or DB that will perform better than JJ in those roles can perform close to JJ as a returner then he will be gone.
 
keep in mind with sterling here as well this makes the competition for the KR/PR very interesting...we'll have to see who is better out of moses, duff, and sterling...sterling might have the break away speed that is needed to take it to the house but i dont' know if he has the right instincts...duff is a solid return man...so is moses...just moses didn't have the speed to take it all the way...who knows...should be fun to watch during the training camps
 
I would love to see JJ back. He may not have the break away speed, but he consistantly gave the Texans good field position when they weren't called back due to penalties. His punt return average wasn't as good, but there again, his best returns were called back due to penalties. Hopefully, Moses stays around, but we all know that the NFL is a business and anything can happen, so we will just have to wait and see.
 
I may be in the minority here but I think that JJ might very well be done.
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I don't believe you are in the minority here at all. We were excited about JJ last year because we needed something to be excited about. When you have a second year expansion team it is hard to expect a lot of wins and be excited. He started to give us some hope. Now our team is really growing up and improving and our hope is in the sheer talent of a much better team. Basically, JJ can be replaced now.
 
I remember offering similar observations near the end of preseason last year and being criticized for not "recognizing a good football player when I saw one." JJ certainly was a crowd pleaser in training camp last year in special teams drills (at 3/4 speed). Many had prematurely anointed him as the new Billy White Shoes. Big difference in BWS and JJ. JJ's not even an average receiver and BWS could take it to the house. But, I don't care either about a take-it-to-the-house threat as much as the consistent field position that JJ gives. JJ earned a spot on this team for that very reason.

As far as lack of breakaway speed, JJ doesn't even have stay-ahead speed. There were several examples of him getting run down from behind last year, the most notable being the LB running him down in the Jets game (yes, I know the guy had an angle but...) and the Denver preseason game when Jarious Jackson ran him down from behind, and the New Orleans game when Michael Lewis closed on JJ as if he was running in quicksand...(ok it was Michael Lewis...) But to JJ's credit, those were all very good, very exciting returns, all made possible by his quickness and shifty style. He just couldn't finish, which is what everyone wants to see.

All that said, I like JJ and his sure hands and his guts and his ability to get good field position on KRs. He rarely fumbles and even though his punt return average was terrible, he made some difficult catches in traffic last year. It's not a bad thing if JJ makes the team. I think the good far outweighs the bad in terms of special teams play, but it would be nice to have a legit WR in the 5th slot - someone like a Dugans maybe who you're not going to put on the practice squad.

To make a long story short, if Duff or anyone else can give us sure hands (first and foremost), around 23 yards per kickoff return, and anything on punt returns, JJ's days could be numbered. JJ's one dimensional and when the talent level increases on the team to a level where cuts become more and more difficult, it's very important for a player to be able to fill dual roles such as return man and legit backup CB/WR/RB.
 
aj. said:
I remember offering similar observations near the end of preseason last year and being criticized for not "recognizing a good football player when I saw one." JJ certainly was a crowd pleaser in training camp last year in special teams drills (at 3/4 speed). Many had prematurely anointed him as the new Billy White Shoes. Big difference in BWS and JJ. JJ's not even an average receiver and BWS could take it to the house. But, I don't care either about a take-it-to-the-house threat as much as the consistent field position that JJ gives. JJ earned a spot on this team for that very reason.

As far as lack of breakaway speed, JJ doesn't even have stay-ahead speed. There were several examples of him getting run down from behind last year, the most notable being the LB running him down in the Jets game (yes, I know the guy had an angle but...) and the Denver preseason game when Jarious Jackson ran him down from behind, and the New Orleans game when Michael Lewis closed on JJ as if he was running in quicksand...(ok it was Michael Lewis...) But to JJ's credit, those were all very good, very exciting returns, all made possible by his quickness and shifty style. He just couldn't finish, which is what everyone wants to see.

All that said, I like JJ and his sure hands and his guts and his ability to get good field position on KRs. He rarely fumbles and even though his punt return average was terrible, he made some difficult catches in traffic last year. It's not a bad thing if JJ makes the team. I think the good far outweighs the bad in terms of special teams play, but it would be nice to have a legit WR in the 5th slot - someone like a Dugans maybe who you're not going to put on the practice squad.

To make a long story short, if Duff or anyone else can give us sure hands (first and foremost), around 23 yards per kickoff return, and anything on punt returns, JJ's days could be numbered. JJ's one dimensional and when the talent level increases on the team to a level where cuts become more and more difficult, it's very important for a player to be able to fill dual roles such as return man and legit backup CB/WR/RB.
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Nice post, I completely agree.
 
V Man said:
Is the writing on the wall for JJ Moses?
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I would hope not! A good returner is like a good receiver or a good running back and to lose a good returner, just because he's not as multi purposed as some of the other returners around the league is crazy. The difference between starting on the 20/25 versus starting on the 15 is a huge difference! I guess we're bound to find out when the time comes though!
 
He's fun to watch, but he does not have the speed to go all the way for a td. This was evidenced in the Jets game last year.
 
Reasons why JJ should stay:
Gave us good field position on Kickoffs
Excellent hands and rarely fumbles
very elusive
Good team guy, good in the community

Reasons why JJ should go:
As AJ noted - lack of speed, little threat to take it to the house
Did not do nearly as good on PR as KR
Serves as the 5th WR, which he is not suited for

Bottom line analysis by your truly:
JJ is a helluva nice guy, and an above average KR. Howerver, his punt returns leave alot to be desired. He is also taking up a valuable roster spot as the 5th WR, a role for which he frankly he does not have the talent or size/speed combo to fill. With the addition of a couple of WR's in the draft/FA, he cannot compete as the 5th WR. That means for him to make it, he would have to be a true specialist, and he just isn't good enough to fill that role. Vontez Duff was very clearly drafted to fill a dime back/kr/pr role, and I think he will be the front runner coming into camp. JJ is a HUGE longshot to make this team :rollbaby:
 
bottom line this will be one of the more fun to watch position battles this offseason....with sterling's speed, duff's attitude, and moses's likeableness this will be a fan favorite battle...can't wait til training camp hits :hyper:
 
I just wish he could stay on his feet. Seems like if someone would just lay a hand on him it would trip him up.
 
Hey Swisher-

Nice avatar, Calvin and Hobbes is the bomb. I'm also from Atascocita, more specifically Atascocita South.
 
I think Sloan Thomas has a chance as a return guy as well... I read somewhere that he had faster 40 times than Roy while at Texas. He's quick, got decent hands and would be taking up a roster spot at WR anyways... speaking of which, Im also looking for him to become the 3rd WR before the 2005 season, moving ahead of Bradford.

:jumpbanan
 
Bradford most likely won't be here after this upcoming season. His contract runs up, and I see Texans moving away from the Bradford days and improving the #2 spot. Unless Bradford has a break out year.
 
HoustonTexansAreTheBest said:
Bradford most likely won't be here after this upcoming season. His contract runs up, and I see Texans moving away from the Bradford days and improving the #2 spot. Unless Bradford has a break out year.
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I think you have a point there really. Bradford has apparently always had the lack of consistency and I've read many times that if Bradford was going to change it would have happened already. After two years I believe that too. He's going to drop some passes that break your heart and catch some passes that blow your mind and there's no predicting what it's going to be.

When he started off hot in 2002 I said that if he ever wanted to prove he was a legitimate NFL #1 or #2 then Houston was his best chance of doing it. I took that back because nobody was going to prove anything in that offense (other than Carr proving that you could get dropped 76 times and still be in one piece afterwards).

In 2003 AJ was a rookie, Carr was in and out of the lineup, and as has been pointed out Carr wasn't checking off all that much. First option and then out to the safety valve. I'm going to say that 2003 wasn't the best spot for Bradford to prove anything either.

In 2004 it's going to be no excuses I think. IF we don't see injuries throw things out of whack, IF Carr continues to progress and gets better at picking his second and third options, and IF AJ starts getting consistent attention then Bradford will either have a great season or he won't. At that point the Texans need to decide whether or not to continue with him based on his performance. I like the guy and I'd like to see him succeed. I want to believe he's going to get to play here when the W's outnumber the L's. I hope he can shine and make other teams pay when they load up on AJ.
 
When he couldn't run away from that guy on the one he had broken I figured he was finished, in fact, I thought they'd dump him last year. Unless he's increased his top speed (how do you do that?) he's a goner.
 
Dunno said:
When he couldn't run away from that guy on the one he had broken I figured he was finished, in fact, I thought they'd dump him last year. Unless he's increased his top speed (how do you do that?) he's a goner.
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It is just odd to me that the most consistant criticism of JJ is his lack of top speed/getting caught from behind. Yeah he got caught from behind, AFTER a 70 yard return. That is a signal to bench the guy? Would you really be happier if a guy that ran a 4.2 40 brought it back really quickly to the thirty? Is the only acceptable result on a KR a TD? Seems to me that there is a zone of blame for JJ--if he returns it between the Texans' 20 and 35 it is clap and good return. If he gets past the 35 (i.e. a better return) it becomes he is too slow let's bench him. There are valid criticisms of JJ, such as his punt returns or the fact that he is not a legitimate WR, and he certainly could be beat out by some of the people the Texans have brought in, but criticizing a guy for getting a 70 yard return just seems to be setting the bar a tad bit high IMO.
 
I agree. The reason I started this thread is because I believe that JJ will lose his spot on the roster, not because he didn't do a good job (which he did on Kick return), or his breakaway speed (I take great field position or a rare TD anyday), it is because as a team develops your non-starting players have to become multi-vasted. Meaning they must help the team in several ways, and JJ couldn't do that. I don't see JJ becoming a relible receiver. So I believe, he'll lose his spot to a WR or a DB that can return and also help in his positional area. :rollbaby:
 
I wonder if the addition of Sloan Thomas will change any of this. My thinking is now we have a valid person who can work behind Bradford making a depth position available in the slot for Gaffney. Because if Gaff were to come down with injury who would we have at the slot position there.

Maybe Moses can fit that role. But I do agree with you on the fact that Moses needs to be contributing to the offense as well. Not every game, just when his number is called.

On that 70 yard kick return, lets not also forget that he basically ran 50 yards across the field as well and if a catch or better throw was made, that game could've been ours. We also led in that game and let it get away from us in the 4th. Maybe our defense has improved to where we can start putting these type games away.
 
Fact is you don't hire a returner who gets caught from behind if you can find one who doesn't.
 
Dunno said:
Fact is you don't hire a returner who gets caught from behind if you can find one who doesn't.
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Words of wisdom. (should make a fortune cookie out of it.)
 
Does anybody know if JJ ever coughed one up last year? Did he ever fumble? I remember even in the Jvill game where he got hit with a cheap shot, he still held on the ball. I really love his approach to the ball, catching it with his hands. That may be one thing that makes Moses a valuable asset. Remember JLewis cost us a few games in our inaugural season.
 
V Man said:
I agree. The reason I started this thread is because I believe that JJ will lose his spot on the roster, not because he didn't do a good job (which he did on Kick return), or his breakaway speed (I take great field position or a rare TD anyday), it is because as a team develops your non-starting players have to become multi-vasted. Meaning they must help the team in several ways, and JJ couldn't do that. I don't see JJ becoming a relible receiver. So I believe, he'll lose his spot to a WR or a DB that can return and also help in his positional area. :rollbaby:
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Now if the Texans would have won the game against the Jets, would you be asking this question? It seems to me you have a problem with JJ, just like many people had a problem with Matt Stevens. Unfortunatley, JJ's highlights were immediatley followed by something stupid. For instance, his 65 yard kickoff return against Cinncinatti, immediatley followed by a holding penalty retuned to the 5 yard line. JJ running one to the Jets 30, immediatley followed by a failed 4th down zipping pass bouncing off Johnson's chest. It seems like you have been blaming the one person for a combined teams failure.
It JJ's spot to lose, yes. But lets wait till training camp starts till we start pointing fingers.
 
TEXAN84 said:
Now if the Texans would have won the game against the Jets, would you be asking this question? It seems to me you have a problem with JJ, just like many people had a problem with Matt Stevens. Unfortunatley, JJ's highlights were immediatley followed by something stupid. For instance, his 65 yard kickoff return against Cinncinatti, immediatley followed by a holding penalty retuned to the 5 yard line. JJ running one to the Jets 30, immediatley followed by a failed 4th down zipping pass bouncing off Johnson's chest. It seems like you have been blaming the one person for a combined teams failure.
It JJ's spot to lose, yes. But lets wait till training camp starts till we start pointing fingers.
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The Jets game has nothing to do with it. I loved what JJ did for us last year. But Our biggest problem was lack of depth, and will still be an issue this year. So until JJ becomes a better receiver, I think his job will always be in jepordy to players who can help in several aspects of the game. (P.S. I hope JJ keeps his job, but I just don't feel like it is going to happen.)
 
El Tejano said:
Does anybody know if JJ ever coughed one up last year? Did he ever fumble? I remember even in the Jvill game where he got hit with a cheap shot, he still held on the ball. I really love his approach to the ball, catching it with his hands. That may be one thing that makes Moses a valuable asset. Remember JLewis cost us a few games in our inaugural season.
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No JJ did not fumble the ball in 2003.
 
JJ is like Miller to me
1st season Miller was the man.. and 2nd season...miller didn't do bad, but we upgraded the talent around him and his stats went down.

JJ is better than Lewis was and we (me included) love to see him run. He gives us good field positions and is sure handed... but I feel that improvement can be done in that area.. esp that JJ takes up a #5 WR spot and no production out of that.. Yes it will take some hard work for someone to unseat him, but if the Texans can find someone to get PR/KR and play the WR spot or CB spot..well I feel JJ"s days are numbers... I like the guy I really do, but I feel that the Texans are looking for someone to be able to take it to paydirt.. JJ has the accelleration and quickness,but not the top speed...
 
I would hate to lose JJ Moses. I realize most see him as an entertaining returner, but I like his toughness, his good hands, and consistency on Kick offs. I believe there are a few TDs in his future too. And what is the problem with us using him like KC uses Hall? Even though Dante Hall is faster, their moves in traffic are similar, and I believe JJ would be dangerous in the secondary. He is a weapon, and we should utilize him more, IMO.
 
I remembered when we played KC in the preseason our first year, I really liked how Moses played against us. In a way I hope he can contribute offensively this season.
 
everyone who watched the texans last year, what was the knock on moses? if ya dont remember ...

"he cant beat the kicker!"

without biased, i dont remember any other single kick returner other than dante hall GETTIN TO the kicker as many times as moses. my thinking is i'd rather have a guy going 40 yards every return & no td's than have a guy averaging 5 yards with a touchdown or two. the kick returner's job is field position, getting a td is a great bonus that VERY RARELY happens. what it seems many are forgetting is moses DID score a td or two, they just happened to be called back because of penalties. the game i think many automatically think of was (forget the opponent) i think jacksonville or the jets early in the season. he ran 100 yards, got us to around the opponent 30 and just ran out of gas. he didnt score a td is what most fans see ... what i saw is HE GOT US TO THE FRIGGIN 30! at league minimum salary, my vote goes for moses's consistant field position. 9 returners last year got td's from 32 teams ... moses averaged over 23 yards per return, had over 1350 yards, & a long of 70 yards. with only one season under his belt, what more could you want?
 
JJ did OK in my book with his returns and can change direction on a dime giving us good field position most of the time. I remember a couple of runbacks that should have been TDs' but he just ran out of gas. I don't recall him lining up at WR but finding a return man that can do double duty would be a big plus. Preseason is a good place to give JJ and others a try at both.
 
The Texans ranked 29th in the NFL in punt returns last season with a 6.7-yard average and were 16th in kickoff returns with a 21.3-yard average. Only one time in 250 attempts the past two seasons have the Texans returned a kick for a touchdown -- a 76-yard punt return by Avion Black against the Baltimore Ravens in 2002.

from the houston Chronicle

The Texans will look for someone better (as with almost any position). As stated in the chronicle and quoted by Marciano.. It is JJ's job to lose. Even though Black returned one back..he still wasn't consistant enough and JJ took his job. JJ is consistant and who knows maybe on of the rookies can be more consistant or maybe JJ holds on... Competition is a good thing. Just my :twocents:
 
I was wondering if mosses is out who is the number two guy. I saw Dunta doing a return and Aaron did them in ny. Duff was a great returner in collage but will thaat translate into the NFl. Who do you think the returner will be next year becase i think we need a new one. :monkey: :penguin: :dance:
 
If Duff wins it, Gaff will be the #2 PR and Hollings will be the #2 KR.

I see Duff winning it.
 
scourge said:
I think Sloan Thomas has a chance as a return guy as well...speaking of which, Im also looking for him to become the 3rd WR before the 2005 season, moving ahead of Bradford.
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This is why I'm not crazy about bring in local players as rookies. Sloan Thomas never started for his college team until they went to the 3 WR set his senior year. He returned a grand total 6 kicks his entire college career. He was a fringe college player who was drafted in the 7th round on the basis of his pro day workout. Nothing wrong with taking a workout warrior in the 7th round, but Thomas has about a 10-15% chance of making it in the NFL. About the same as the other 7 round guys.

Yet, some of you guys think that Sloan can solve the Texans return problems, become the slot WR (if not #2), and basically walk on water. The reality is that the guy has zero chance of contributing as a WR for the Texans this season. He has to be deprogramed from whatever poor techniques he picked up at UT and built from the ground up as a WR. Thomas is a legit athlete, it could happen. But not anytime soon. Where he can make this team is on special teams and his competition for a job isn't with JJ Moses but guys like Bell, Vaughn, plus NFL Europe special team stars Jermaine Lewis & Rober' Freeman.

I realize a ton of you guys are Horn fans. That's cool, but let's try to keep it real concerning a players chances with the Texans. No need to turn this board into a place of worship for all things burnt orange.
 
I realize a ton of you guys are Horn fans. That's cool, but let's try to keep it real concerning a players chances with the Texans. No need to turn this board into a place of worship for all things burnt orange.
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Well said. Oh...and gig 'em!

Tim
 
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