Is David Carr all that bad?

[vtech9]

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Except Carr isn't nearly as accurate when he is on the move...



You're not feel'n me Tex..... Michael Vick can run all day long, and it'll get him some wins, and people will enjoy the show. But that's about as far as that'll go. He's not going to be all that he can be, till he is able to get that big play down the field..... yeah, go get your first down, go ahead, do it again.... that third time, go for the juggular, and make the big play down the field.

Carr's got wheels, he can get away, he can pick up the first down. Every now and again, he'll make the big play, but it's too far and in between. Vince is better at playing when he is flushed out of the pocket.

Picture this. The pocket collapses, David Carr will either run into the arms of a defensive player, curl up like a baby and wait for the sack, run out of bounds with the ball(technically, it is a sack, if it's behind the line of scrimmage) or pickup the first down.

Now, picture this. The pocket collapses, Vince young jukes....... then he jives.... then..he pump fakes... then .... he.... bobs.. then........... weeves.... then... I don't even know what to call that move, because I ain't never seen not'n like that.... then he throws the ball back across the field, because his tightend managed to get open... and he scores........

You give him time.... Carr's going to hurt you...... so will Vince.. You blitz him, and the man of steal is going to make you pay....

O my gosh now we are making stuff up alow me to try.

David Carr gets his extentionfor another 3 years, We draft Reggie Bush. Kubiak and Carr work like mad dogs during the offseason(like he always has!). Carr excels under Kubiaks Offense because he finally has all the right people he should have had in the first place. The O is pumped about the NEW Offense, people are working hard, watching film to get ready for the game.
We get some good O Lineman in here next year, Bentley, Hutchenson we FINALLY give Carr the protection he needs(and we all know what Carr does with time he can hurt you).

Carr has a great game and Reggie and Dre catch for a 100+ yards each, Carr goes for 270 and 4 TDs, Reggie makes some out of this world juke more then once and rushes for 90 yards, Carr is kept off his back and half way through the season Carr is one of the guys for the MVP and you know what he says,"Give it to someone else I dont want it", WHY they ask? "Because I have not done anything different then I have the last 4 years I have been here". Then we get to the Superbowl and win it, Carr gets up there and says"This is for Bob, Kubes, the coaching staff my family and the "fans" that never gave up on me or my team. "I am out"

PS- They still give him the MVP because he throws for 3,800 yards 38 TDs and 7 INTs.

I'm sorry hulk75, but you must be dreaming. How many Texans games did you actually get to watch this year? This statement by thunderkyss is very true and happened way too many times, this year and the previous ones, for me to believe that he can turn it around in one year if he can do it at all....

The pocket collapses, David Carr will either run into the arms of a defensive player, curl up like a baby and wait for the sack, run out of bounds with the ball(technically, it is a sack, if it's behind the line of scrimmage) or pickup the first down

 

[Koolbrz]

Yes, I do. If you knew anything about QB's you wouldn't have asked this question. In a 3-step drop, once that third step hits ground, the QB is supposed to fire the ball or look to his next option if his 1st option is covered. Carr would not do this. If Carr's 1st option was covered, he would hold the ball and stare at his 1st option until he got hit or panicked and ran.

If you have copies of any of the games, watch how Carr takes the snap and immediately focuses on his 1st option. Watch and you will see how he never takes his eyes off of him. As a QB, you just can't do that if you want to be successful. You can get away with it in high school, and you can sometimes get away with it in college. Carr did get away with it for the most part in college. He had more time in college to stare down his WR's and wait for someone to come open because of the talent of the teams he played against. I remember seeing this while watching him play in college, but I thought that NFL coaching could take care of that. I saw that Carr had the physical abilities to be a star QB in the NFL, and didn't care about his shortcomings because I believed our coaches could correct them. I was wrong. Carr has been in the league for 4 years and he still has the same problems.

Trust me, I know football and what is expected from the QB position. Read my lips he did not have time to throw the ball!! In almost every one of his games he took 2 steps and had to run, alot of the time our great recievers could not get open, and you said it yourself the great coaching he has had up to now could not correct the fact that maybe he does look at his 1st option a lil to long. Maybe, just maybe, with a really good QB coach like Kubiak he can turn things around. I mean C. Palmer, come on, look at what happened with T. Couch. He may have been a good coach back in the day. He is not now. By the way i know that your supposed to fire the ball on your third step in a 3 step drop, our recievers just simply could not get open. AJ double teamed, and who really worries about Bradford and Gaffney. Even when they did get open they dropped the ball. Enough said

 

[vtech9]

Trust me, I know football and what is expected from the QB position. Read my lips he did not have time to throw the ball!! In almost every one of his games he took 2 steps and had to run, alot of the time our great recievers could not get open, and you said it yourself the great coaching he has had up to now could not correct the fact that maybe he does look at his 1st option a lil to long. Maybe, just maybe, with a really good QB coach like Kubiak he can turn things around. I mean C. Palmer, come on, look at what happened with T. Couch. He may have been a good coach back in the day. He is not now. By the way i know that your supposed to fire the ball on your third step in a 3 step drop, our recievers just simply could not get open. AJ double teamed, and who really worries about Bradford and Gaffney. Even when they did get open they dropped the ball. Enough said

the point is....if your first option is not open, you look to your 2nd and 3rd option. These WR's are in the NFL, and are expected to catch the ball, so he still has to throw it to them to give them a chance to make a play. If the WR's drop the ball, that's something he can't control, but if he doesn't throw it to them, how can you say what would have happened.

If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran. On top of that, when he did run, he would either run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage for a sack, or run out of the pocket and right into the oncoming rusher. On the runs that he made positive yardage, he probably could have made a bigger play down field if he had simply looked. The problem with him running is that once he takes off, he seems to be only interested in where the closest defensive guy is, and not in where his WR's are. If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once.

Basically what I am saying to you is...go get the recorded games and watch Carr. Watch him with an open mind, and try do be unbiased. Just watch the games and then come back and try to honestly tell it like you saw it. If you will just watch Carr with an open mind, I think you will be suprised with what you see. Oh, I would also like for you to find out which game it was that Carr could only get to two steps before being hit. When you find that, let me know which game it was, what quarter it was in, and approximately how much time was left in that quarter, so I can go back and watch it myself.

 

[AustinJB]

the point is....if your first option is not open, you look to your 2nd and 3rd option. These WR's are in the NFL, and are expected to catch the ball, so he still has to throw it to them to give them a chance to make a play. If the WR's drop the ball, that's something he can't control, but if he doesn't throw it to them, how can you say what would have happened.

If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran. On top of that, when he did run, he would either run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage for a sack, or run out of the pocket and right into the oncoming rusher. On the runs that he made positive yardage, he probably could have made a bigger play down field if he had simply looked. The problem with him running is that once he takes off, he seems to be only interested in where the closest defensive guy is, and not in where his WR's are. If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once.

Basically what I am saying to you is...go get the recorded games and watch Carr. Watch him with an open mind, and try do be unbiased. Just watch the games and then come back and try to honestly tell it like you saw it. If you will just watch Carr with an open mind, I think you will be suprised with what you see. Oh, I would also like for you to find out which game it was that Carr could only get to two steps before being hit. When you find that, let me know which game it was, what quarter it was in, and approximately how much time was left in that quarter, so I can go back and watch it myself.

Ditto

 

[OzzO]

...If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran.... If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once..

Not calling you out, per se, but this arguement holds less water for me. When I first heard this arguement of locking onto one player, I watched a few other QB's to see their style. One I defintely recall is Payton Manning's style. He locks onto one as well.

The difference is, PM gets to the line earlier - looks for the mismatch and audibles as necessary. He can then "lock on". Based on past Carr / coaching - there wasn't a read of defense that there was little time once to get to the line to audible out (save for the "run") if the matchup was not what was expected. Texans seemed to have a "predict what the defense will do" while the Colts were running a "see what the defense will do" play.

 

[thegr8fan]

Not calling you out, per se, but this arguement holds less water for me. When I first heard this arguement of locking onto one player, I watched a few other QB's to see their style. One I defintely recall is Payton Manning's style. He locks onto one as well.

The difference is, PM gets to the line earlier - looks for the mismatch and audibles as necessary. He can then "lock on". Based on past Carr / coaching - there wasn't a read of defense that there was little time once to get to the line to audible out (save for the "run") if the matchup was not what was expected. Texans seemed to have a "predict what the defense will do" while the Colts were running a "see what the defense will do" play.

did you notice how many of those 'locked on' WR's got the pass to them from Payton Manning, A4? Most of the time that was the WR to got the pass. The difference there is Payton is able to read a defense and tell who the most probable open WR was going to be. Carr couldn't read a defense if they came with flashing neon signs on the front of their helmet saying 'rusher' or 'coverage'.

Carr is that bad, literally. Is it bad coaching, good defensive scheming, lack of game film study, or Carr's inability to play at an NFL level of speed and decision making? Perhaps it is a little of all, wrapped together to make a sure fire recipe for disaster, like a 2-14 season.

what I am loving is all of the current MB members who blame the coaching and were screaming for Chris Palmer to be fired and all would be well after that. The conspiracy theorist who touted how Carr and Palmer had some kind of personal grievance against each other and couldn't work together and Palmer had to go and Carr would become the next Montana. Well Palmer got fired and nothing seemed to change, at least nothing good anyway.

 

[thunderkyss]

Not calling you out, per se, but this arguement holds less water for me. When I first heard this arguement of locking onto one player, I watched a few other QB's to see their style. One I defintely recall is Payton Manning's style. He locks onto one as well.

The difference is, PM gets to the line earlier - looks for the mismatch and audibles as necessary. He can then "lock on". Based on past Carr / coaching - there wasn't a read of defense that there was little time once to get to the line to audible out (save for the "run") if the matchup was not what was expected. Texans seemed to have a "predict what the defense will do" while the Colts were running a "see what the defense will do" play.

Even if he isn't allowed to change the play, it would make sense for Carr to recognize the coverage and determine what he will have to do. If that means calling a time out, because their are eight guys in the box, and he's got 3 recievers and one back, then he needs to call a time out. If he sees one on one,with AJ, then that should be his first option. If he sees a safety, linebacker, or a slower corner on Bradford/Mathis, then that should be his #1, that should be the guy he locks on to.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

When it comes to DC it has always been three things to me: his audibles, his footwork after he sets his back foot and not going through progressions. Admittedly the progression side is not all DC as there are many factors, but when he did have the limited opps to go through them I never saw him scan the field.

The first two are things I am not sure he had the expereince to develop when you look at the limited number of games he played leading up to this NFL career. Once he got there he got hit repeatedly, development in my opinion was stumped during the season. I have always contended that he needed to work out with DB's in the off season to get better dexterity and we needed a well seasoned back up, who was a "gym rat" that would watch film continuously with him and share their experiences. Has Banks done this or do they have that relathionship? I do not know. Kubiak should fill this void immediately if it did exist.

Some of you will say leadership, which I have not seen from DC. But I am been around enough teams to know that everyone at this level has it in them to be a leader, it just shows itself in different forms and at different times. Once again Obi Wan Kubiak should be able to kickstart it.

To all my fellow Carr contract haters out there I have not abandoned you, just want to keep it real and not personal as this debate, at times, will turn.

 

[vtech9]

just FYI, I don't hate Carr. In fact, he is the guy I wanted when he came out of college. I saw some problems with his play in college, but I thought they could have been corrected by NFL coaching. I have always believed that Carr has the physical abilities to be a great NFL QB, but what I am questioning now are his mental abilities to pick up of the nuances of the NFL game. I sincerely hope that Carr can turn his carreer around and be a star, but I am of mind like Kaiser Toro in that, I have a problem giving an $8 Million bonus to a QB that we STILL have to develope after four years in the NFL. They are going to have to retrain him to be an NFL QB, basically start over with him. After four years in the NFL, How long do you give him to turn around? What if his bad habits are so ingrained in him that he has become unteachable. I saw quite a few times on the sideline this past season where he would get defensive and argue with Pendry instead of just listening to him. Can that be fixed? I have a lot of questions, and I just feel uncomfortable giving him that much money without having those questions answered.

There has been alot of speculation on Carr's work ethic and his lack of staying late to watch game film. I remember watching an interview with Carr where he said that he watched game film at home. That's all well and good, but simply put, by watching game film at home, he might not notice mistakes he made that a coach watching with him would point out. IMHO, that is something that needs to change and must change if he is to improve.

 

[OzzO]

...The difference there is Payton is able to read a defense and tell who the most probable open WR was going to be. Carr couldn't read a defense if they came with flashing neon signs on the front of their helmet saying 'rusher' or 'coverage'. ...

Then as Thunder noted after you and I before - we seem to agree on this point, at least being able to read the defense before the hike and adjust as necessary.

So is it Carr was limited by previous coaching to call "one of two" plays as he got to the line or is it he can't read a defense? Maybe that's what Kubiak will find out this offseason, and if Carr is back next year - what we'll find out under a new system.

Thunder - I can see the timeout thing... but he's only got 3 chances with that, and if they have to be burned on an incorrect play call - Texans better switch that around quick with new play calling process or a new QB.

 

[bigTEXan8]

I am a Carr , but yet I still think that he should restructure his contract. It would go a long way in proving he's a team player, even though I think he's already proved that. Plus, if I was Carr, I wouldn't mind giving an extra few mill to protect my ***.

 

[Koolbrz]

the point is....if your first option is not open, you look to your 2nd and 3rd option. These WR's are in the NFL, and are expected to catch the ball, so he still has to throw it to them to give them a chance to make a play. If the WR's drop the ball, that's something he can't control, but if he doesn't throw it to them, how can you say what would have happened.

If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran. On top of that, when he did run, he would either run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage for a sack, or run out of the pocket and right into the oncoming rusher. On the runs that he made positive yardage, he probably could have made a bigger play down field if he had simply looked. The problem with him running is that once he takes off, he seems to be only interested in where the closest defensive guy is, and not in where his WR's are. If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once.

Basically what I am saying to you is...go get the recorded games and watch Carr. Watch him with an open mind, and try do be unbiased. Just watch the games and then come back and try to honestly tell it like you saw it. If you will just watch Carr with an open mind, I think you will be suprised with what you see. Oh, I would also like for you to find out which game it was that Carr could only get to two steps before being hit. When you find that, let me know which game it was, what quarter it was in, and approximately how much time was left in that quarter, so I can go back and watch it myself.

Pittsburg game this yr. check it out and tell me what you see. I'm not in love with DC just saying we need to give this guy a chance with some real coaches and a better o-line. I believe you will see a better QB.

 

[thegr8fan]

the same Pittsburgh that won the Superbowl this year? You want to watch game film on the team that won the Superbowl against the worst team in the NFL this year? Does this seem like an accurate gage of Carrs ability against the 'NFL norm' to you? The best against the worst? I don't even have to watch that game again to tell you how it looked. It looked just like the best against the worst, on a team scale. The entire Texans team fell flat on their faces.

Your kidding on this one right?

 

[vtech9]

Pittsburg game this yr. check it out and tell me what you see. I'm not in love with DC just saying we need to give this guy a chance with some real coaches and a better o-line. I believe you will see a better QB.

I saw the same thing I have seen in every game. I saw a QB that doesn't know how to read a defense. I saw a QB that panicked when he got pressured. Basically, I saw a QB that stared down his 1st option, held the ball too long, ran outside of his protection, and didn't throw the ball away.

Watch the play where he had a pocket to step up into, but instead ran outside of his protection and right into the guys that were being blocked. He was sacked and had the ball stripped from him. If he would have stepped up into the pocket like any other QB would have, the rush would have went past him and he could have thrown down field or ran through the gaping hole that was there. I still didn't see a sack before he got to his third step. Maybe I missed it. What quarter was it in, and what was the time on the clock?

Now, you go back and watch that game and tell me what you saw. I'll be waiting.

 

[Koolbrz]

the same Pittsburgh that won the Superbowl this year? You want to watch game film on the team that won the Superbowl against the worst team in the NFL this year? Does this seem like an accurate gage of Carrs ability against the 'NFL norm' to you? The best against the worst? I don't even have to watch that game again to tell you how it looked. It looked just like the best against the worst, on a team scale. The entire Texans team fell flat on their faces.

Your kidding on this one right?

Pittsburgh was not the best team in the nfl at that time, sorry dude. It was only the second game of the yr. They came around, what in the 12th week. They were a totally diff. team from that point on. Check this out Pitt. had what 8 sacks, Tenn. had 7 sacks, Jac. had 6-7 sacks in two games, Indy had 9 in 2 games, Bal. had 4 maybe 5 sacks in there game with the texans. Yeah baby!!! That is some kind of protection. Gave Carr plenty of time to throw the ball. Check the stats if you like.

 

[aj.]

Pittsburgh was not the best team in the nfl at that time, sorry dude. It was only the second game of the yr. They came around, what in the 12th week. Check the stats if you like.

I checked the stats. Pittsburgh was 7-2 going into Week 10 and they won their first two games of the season over really bad teams by a combined score of 61-14. That's what you're supposed to do to bad teams (destroy them).

Their only losses during the first 9 games were to New England and Jax by a combined 9 points. They "came around" in Week 1, lost two games in ten weeks to two playoff teams, then hit a rough stretch from Weeks 11-13, then won the rest of their games in impressive fashion.

 

[Koolbrz]

I saw the same thing I have seen in every game. I saw a QB that doesn't know how to read a defense. I saw a QB that panicked when he got pressured. Basically, I saw a QB that stared down his 1st option, held the ball too long, ran outside of his protection, and didn't throw the ball away.

Watch the play where he had a pocket to step up into, but instead ran outside of his protection and right into the guys that were being blocked. He was sacked and had the ball stripped from him. If he would have stepped up into the pocket like any other QB would have, the rush would have went past him and he could have thrown down field or ran through the gaping hole that was there. I still didn't see a sack before he got to his third step. Maybe I missed it. What quarter was it in, and what was the time on the clock?

Now, you go back and watch that game and tell me what you saw. I'll be waiting.

So it was a bad decision. P. Manning could not run this last yrs. offense with the o-line and receivers that we have. Indy has a much better o-line than we do and look at how Manning played against Pitt. Just too much pressure, caused him to make some bad decisions kinda like what Carr faced all yr. Just look at tht stats--against Indy 2 games Carr was sacked 9 times, Jac. 4-5 times in 2 games, Bal. 4-5 times, Pitt. 8, and Tenn had what 7-8 sacks against them this past yr. Wow Dude that is some great protection!!!

 

[Wordem]

To answer the original question . . . he's not all that good.

 

[Koolbrz]

I checked the stats. Pittsburgh was 7-2 going into Week 10. Their only losses were to New England and Jax by a combined 9 points. They came around in Week 1, hit a rough stretch from Weeks 11-13, then won the rest of their games in impressive fashion.

They were 7-5 going into that 13th wk and almost eliminated from the playoffs. It was then that they began there impressive run. Besides you can't say they were the best team in the nfl considering it was only the second wk. of the season when they played the Texans.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I checked the stats. Pittsburgh was 7-2 going into Week 10 and they won their first two games of the season over really bad teams by a combined score of 61-14. That's what you're supposed to do to bad teams (destroy them).

Their only losses during the first 9 games were to New England and Jax by a combined 9 points. They "came around" in Week 1, lost two games in ten weeks to two playoff teams, then hit a rough stretch from Weeks 11-13, then won the rest of their games in impressive fashion.

Were you looking at the wrong year or was Pittsburgh a typo? Sir, step away from the bar with your wireless notebook.

 

[vtech9]

They were 7-5 going into that 13th wk and almost eliminated from the playoffs. It was then that they began there impressive run. Besides you can't say they were the best team in the nfl considering it was only the second wk. of the season when they played the Texans.

Pittsburgh lost those 3 games to push there record to 7-5 because they didn't have a QB. Roethlesberger was out with an injury for those 3 weeks. Maddox & Batch filled in during that time and weren't very good. So in the games that Big Ben started, the Steelers only had those 2 losses that A.J. mentioned. In other words, the Steelers were good all along.

 

[vtech9]

So it was a bad decision. P. Manning could not run this last yrs. offense with the o-line and receivers that we have. Indy has a much better o-line than we do and look at how Manning played against Pitt. Just too much pressure, caused him to make some bad decisions kinda like what Carr faced all yr. Just look at tht stats--against Indy 2 games Carr was sacked 9 times, Jac. 4-5 times in 2 games, Bal. 4-5 times, Pitt. 8, and Tenn had what 7-8 sacks against them this past yr. Wow Dude that is some great protection!!!

So you still refuse to watch the game and make an honest, unbiased opinion of Carr. Instead, you bring up stats that are skewed because it doesn't tell you how many of those sacks were a direct result of Carr's errors. You bring up the O-Line as an excuse and state that another QB couldn't play behind it. You try to relate what that other QB did against Pittsburgh, but you fail to point out that the other QB still had his team in a position to win the game. Granted, Manning was rattled early, but he made adjustments and almost pulled out the game. Have you ever seen Carr do this?

Don't try to base your argument on stats that don't even tell half the story. It doesn't make you look smart, all it does is make you look like you are grasping at straws

 

[Fighting Blue Hen]

Let's get back to the original question. Yes.

 

[Nighthawk]

I saw the same thing I have seen in every game. I saw a QB that doesn't know how to read a defense. I saw a QB that panicked when he got pressured. Basically, I saw a QB that stared down his 1st option, held the ball too long, ran outside of his protection, and didn't throw the ball away.

Watch the play where he had a pocket to step up into, but instead ran outside of his protection and right into the guys that were being blocked. He was sacked and had the ball stripped from him. If he would have stepped up into the pocket like any other QB would have, the rush would have went past him and he could have thrown down field or ran through the gaping hole that was there. I still didn't see a sack before he got to his third step. Maybe I missed it. What quarter was it in, and what was the time on the clock?

Now, you go back and watch that game and tell me what you saw. I'll be waiting.

Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

 

[AustinJB]

Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

Mmmmmmmm....I don't know about that.

I am one of the major proponents of VY, and I think Carr is a lost cause. But even I can't say that he's not tough and is a total wuss. I mean, c'mon...the guy has been sacked more times in the past four yrs than any QB in the history of the NFL (yes, a lot of which were his own fault.) To his credit, he
can take a hit and keep getting back up. The things that I don't like about Carr have nothing to do w/ his toughness.

I would like to see a more "fiery" attitude towards winning the game....much like Favre, as you mentioned. I'd like to see him step up into a leadership role. I'd like to see him be more decisive and confident. I'd like to see him check down to his 2nd and 3rd option. I'd like to see him step up into the pocket (the few times that it IS there) and make a throw instead of running to his right and running right into the pass rush.

I'd like to see him fight and struggle to get away from the pass rush instead of falling down by himself. I'd like to see him throw the DAMN ball as he's running to the sidelines instead of running out of bounds and giving the Oline another sack. I'd like to see him arrive early and stay late to work on his game...to the point that there could never even be a question by anyone in the media or fanbase of whether or not he is completely dedicated. Basically, I'd like to see him do all of the things that a legitimate NFL QB is supposed to do...especially one taken #1 overall.

But most of all....I'd just like to see some sign of IMPROVEMENT before we decide to keep him as our undisputed QB for the next three yrs and pass on great potential QB talent in this year's draft. Anyway, THOSE are the reasons I'm frustrated w/ Carr....but a wuss? He IS durable if he's anything at all.

 

[Dr. Toro]

The guy is tough, he is not a pansy, but I don't like his body language on the field. I'd like to see motivational tactics that don't involve hair. How can Brady get away with Gap ads and GQ covers, but Carr comes off as a pretty boy? Maybe winning is the answer, maybe leadership is the answer... I don't know.

The guy hasn't had it easy, but consistent toughness in the face of consistent failure just means the guy can take some licks. It's nice to have a good chin, but being able to avoid shots and deal some blows of your own are important too. I don't know how we got on the boxing analogy, but while we're there, I guess that makes Carr the football equivalent of Chuck "The Bayonne Bleeder" Wepner.

 

[thunderkyss]

I would like to see a more "fiery" attitude towards winning the game....much like Favre, as you mentioned. I'd like to see him step up into a leadership role. I'd like to see him be more decisive and confident. I'd like to see him check down to his 2nd and 3rd option. I'd like to see him step up into the pocket (the few times that it IS there) and make a throw instead of running to his right and running right into the pass rush.


But most of all....I'd just like to see some sign of IMPROVEMENT before we decide to keep him as our undisputed QB for the next three yrs and pass on great potential QB talent in this year's draft. Anyway, THOSE are the reasons I'm frustrated w/ Carr....but a wuss? He IS durable if he's anything at all.

This is where I'm at two.... there was another thread, where everyone jumped on one of our members, because that member didn't like it when David said he'd rather take a sack, than throw an interception. Look at Bret's year in 2005.... man did he throw some interceptions... Granted, if David threw that many of interceptions, you'd think he'd be on his way out..(like Joey Harrington).. David & Joey don't have the luxury of being Bret Favre like, and getting away with throwing 21 interceptions. When Bret does it, he's trying to win, giving his recievers an opportunity to make a play on the ball. When Joey/David does it....... they're just stupid.

But we will officially pick up Carr's option today....... $5.25 million + $8 million to find out what we've got........ that's ridiculous.

 

[infantrycak]

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

Thank you--the 1st step is admitting the problem. Nice immature way to judge a football player.

 

[infantrycak]

So you still refuse to watch the game and make an honest, unbiased opinion of Carr. Instead, you bring up stats that are skewed because it doesn't tell you how many of those sacks were a direct result of Carr's errors.

I'm your huckleberry. You have been bludgeoning people with your review of game tape showing Carr "never" does anything but lock on to his 1st option and that people are making excuses for him by blaming the OL. I took a stab at breaking down the passing game on 4 of the games last year and anything resembling an objective review doesn't lead to the sweeping assertions you are making. At least over that 4 game span you could frequently see Carr look to more than one option. Was he making good decisions based on the reads?--we really don't know because we can't see the coverage down field. But we can see your assertion that Carr "always" locks on to #1 and "never" looks anywhere else is charitably described as an exaggeration. Want to bet Kubiack is better at teaching good progression decisions than Pendry?

Similarly, this ooh people are making excuses about the OL for Carr whine is tired. It might make sense if Carr were actually responsible for more than half the sacks, but he isn't. Carr on an ungenerous to him standard might be responsible for 30% of his sacks last year. Well guess what, that still leaves the Texans pass protection (OL, TE's & RB's) sucking with 48 sacks. Now read that carefully--it doesn't say Carr wasn't part of the problem--he was but this isn't some mutually exclusive deal and even taking Carr's sacks out (which is a problem Carr needs to work on) he would have been hit far more than acceptable and far more than an average QB.

OK everyone go back to their black and white arguments. Sorry for the interruption.

 

[Hardcore Texan]

Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

Why don't you tell that to his face, big guy.

 

[jerek]

I'm your huckleberry. You have been bludgeoning people with your review of game tape showing Carr "never" does anything but lock on to his 1st option and that people are making excuses for him by blaming the OL. I took a stab at breaking down the passing game on 4 of the games last year and anything resembling an objective review doesn't lead to the sweeping assertions you are making. At least over that 4 game span you could frequently see Carr look to more than one option. Was he making good decisions based on the reads?--we really don't know because we can't see the coverage down field. But we can see your assertion that Carr "always" locks on to #1 and "never" looks anywhere else is charitably described as an exaggeration. Want to bet Kubiack is better at teaching good progression decisions than Pendry?

Similarly, this ooh people are making excuses about the OL for Carr whine is tired. It might make sense if Carr were actually responsible for more than half the sacks, but he isn't. Carr on an ungenerous to him standard might be responsible for 30% of his sacks last year. Well guess what, that still leaves the Texans pass protection (OL, TE's & RB's) sucking with 48 sacks. Now read that carefully--it doesn't say Carr wasn't part of the problem--he was but this isn't some mutually exclusive deal and even taking Carr's sacks out (which is a problem Carr needs to work on) he would have been hit far more than acceptable and far more than an average QB.

OK everyone go back to their black and white arguments. Sorry for the interruption.

Why re-type it when Infantry already said it?

 

[Koolbrz]

So you still refuse to watch the game and make an honest, unbiased opinion of Carr. Instead, you bring up stats that are skewed because it doesn't tell you how many of those sacks were a direct result of Carr's errors. You bring up the O-Line as an excuse and state that another QB couldn't play behind it. You try to relate what that other QB did against Pittsburgh, but you fail to point out that the other QB still had his team in a position to win the game. Granted, Manning was rattled early, but he made adjustments and almost pulled out the game. Have you ever seen Carr do this?

Don't try to base your argument on stats that don't even tell half the story. It doesn't make you look smart, all it does is make you look like you are grasping at straws

I'm telling you what i see and what is a fact. I"m just giving you an example, Indy, of what pressure from a defense can do to a QB. No matter who it is. Yes they had an opportunity to win, but guess what cause of the pressure Pitt. was putting on manning they could not do it. They had to depend on there Kicker. Stats are stats. Its what happens in a game. They do tell alot. If they did not why even bother keeping them.

 

[Koolbrz]

Pittsburgh lost those 3 games to push there record to 7-5 because they didn't have a QB. Roethlesberger was out with an injury for those 3 weeks. Maddox & Batch filled in during that time and weren't very good. So in the games that Big Ben started, the Steelers only had those 2 losses that A.J. mentioned. In other words, the Steelers were good all along.

Doesn't matter, there was still 10 guys out there that had been starting all yr. They hit a lil slump, happens to all of us. It is a team game and someone else needed to pick up the slack. They did not so they lost. Its just the way it is brother.

 

[McNabbMVP05]

Yes, yes he is. But thats only because he plays for a franchise based in houston the worst city in America.

 

[vtech9]

I'm your huckleberry. You have been bludgeoning people with your review of game tape showing Carr "never" does anything but lock on to his 1st option and that people are making excuses for him by blaming the OL. I took a stab at breaking down the passing game on 4 of the games last year and anything resembling an objective review doesn't lead to the sweeping assertions you are making. At least over that 4 game span you could frequently see Carr look to more than one option. Was he making good decisions based on the reads?--we really don't know because we can't see the coverage down field. But we can see your assertion that Carr "always" locks on to #1 and "never" looks anywhere else is charitably described as an exaggeration. Want to bet Kubiack is better at teaching good progression decisions than Pendry?

Similarly, this ooh people are making excuses about the OL for Carr whine is tired. It might make sense if Carr were actually responsible for more than half the sacks, but he isn't. Carr on an ungenerous to him standard might be responsible for 30% of his sacks last year. Well guess what, that still leaves the Texans pass protection (OL, TE's & RB's) sucking with 48 sacks. Now read that carefully--it doesn't say Carr wasn't part of the problem--he was but this isn't some mutually exclusive deal and even taking Carr's sacks out (which is a problem Carr needs to work on) he would have been hit far more than acceptable and far more than an average QB.

OK everyone go back to their black and white arguments. Sorry for the interruption.

Who bludgeoned who?

He brought up one game as an example. I challenged him to go back and watch that game with an open mind. If you call that bludgeoning, you have issues. If you are going to bring a weak argument, expect it to be challenged. If you try to bring in stats that don't tell the whole story, expect them to be disregarded. I'll agree with you that during a couple games Carr did get better at checking down, but better than nothing isn't saying much. I can understand that you want to give Carr the benefit of the doubt, but people are constantly making excuses for him by blaming his O-Line, with you included, although not as often or as blatant. I think you were being very generous to Carr in stating that he was responsible for only 30% of his sacks. I think that number is closer to 40%.

I know you want to see Carr succeed, and so do I, but we just have differing opinions on his current level. It's as simple as that.

 

[Texans86]

Yes, yes he is. But thats only because he plays for a franchise based in houston the worst city in America.

You're good at making friends quickly, aren't you?

Welcome to the board.

 

[McNabbMVP05]

You're good at making friends quickly, aren't you?

Welcome to the board.

Im not interested in being friends with someone who wears a cowboy hat to work.

 

[vtech9]

Doesn't matter, there was still 10 guys out there that had been starting all yr. They hit a lil slump, happens to all of us. It is a team game and someone else needed to pick up the slack. They did not so they lost. Its just the way it is brother.

Yes it did matter. It mattered quite a bit. When your QB, you know that guy that touches the ball every offensive play, can't hit an open WR, it tends to allow the defense to stack the line to stop the run. With Batch and Maddox in there, the Steelers were one dimensional. They had almost no passing game. The QB is THE single most important person on the team. So goes the QB, so goes the team.

 

[Texans86]

Im not interested in being friends with someone who wears a cowboy hat to work.

Umm...Have you been to Texas? Near the state even? Houston is like every other big city in America. I'm not quite sure where you are going with the cowboy hat idea.

 

[infantrycak]

I challenged him to go back and watch that game with an open mind. If you call that bludgeoning, you have issues.

It took more than one post for me to jump in and challenge the absolute statements you have been making.

I can understand that you want to give Carr the benefit of the doubt, but people are constantly making excuses for him by blaming his O-Line, with you included, although not as often or as blatant. I think you were being very generous to Carr in stating that he was responsible for only 30% of his sacks. I think that number is closer to 40%.

If you say so. I went back to review several games in detail (funny, I asked for feedback on those reviews and other than Vinny, basically received nothing detailed--hmmm) to see what was fact and what was exageration. Funny, it must have been a coincidence that I only saw games where you can actually see Carr's head move from one target to another more than "never"--I guess I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt. Vinny has been one of the most consistant and best critics of Carr for years. When I came up with the 30% figure he indicated it was high if anything. I'll stick with my review and his before shooting a 40% from the hip.

 

[vtech9]

It took more than one post for me to jump in and challenge the absolute statements you have been making.



If you say so. I went back to review several games in detail (funny, I asked for feedback on those reviews and other than Vinny, basically received nothing detailed--hmmm) to see what was fact and what was exageration. Funny, it must have been a coincidence that I only saw games where you can actually see Carr's head move from one target to another more than "never"--I guess I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt. Vinny has been one of the most consistant and best critics of Carr for years. When I came up with the 30% figure he indicated it was high if anything. I'll stick with my review and his before shooting a 40% from the hip.

just because nobody gave you feedback doesn't mean that you are correct or that nobody disagreed with you. Who know's it could have meant that they didn't think your thread was worth the time to post in. During the season, I didn't have enough time to read every post, and still don't, so I probably missed your thread. Most of the time when someone said something bad about Carr, there were several others, to use your term, bludgeoning them for their statements. It seemed like Vinny was the only one that was allowed to make those statements without being hammered. For the 1st couple seasons I was like you, and I didn't want to see Carr's faults. I disagreed with Vinny on several occasions, but it got to the point when I just couldn't deny Carr's bad tendencies. I guess you could be right in one sense. If Carr looked to his 2nd option even once a game, that would be more than never. Actually, I don't recall saying "never", so I will have to go back and check on that. Did I actually say "never", or were you just assuming that is what I meant.

By the way, I stand my statement of closer to 40%. I fault Carr for every one of the sacks that occurred because of his holding the ball too long and not throwing it away.

 

[infantrycak]

It seemed like Vinny was the only one that was allowed to make those statements without being hammered. For the 1st couple seasons I was like you, and I didn't want to see Carr's faults.

Funny, I seem to remember having had a number of discussions with Vinny, ArlingtonTexan and others about Carr and the things he needed to work on going back to the 2002 season. Yes you used the term never and that was the point of my post--exagerations. 40% isn't close to realistic and neither is never, but at the heart of the matter you are correctly stating two things--Carr needs to work on progressions and avoiding pressure/sacks. Probably just my issue, but I don't like black and white descriptions and will often be found posting in opposition whether it be Carr never looks off his primary or Carr's WR's are never open or Carr never gets good pass protection--all are false.

 

[vtech9]

Funny, I seem to remember having had a number of discussions with Vinny, ArlingtonTexan and others about Carr and the things he needed to work on going back to the 2002 season. Yes you used the term never and that was the point of my post--exagerations. 40% isn't close to realistic and neither is never, but at the heart of the matter you are correctly stating two things--Carr needs to work on progressions and avoiding pressure/sacks. Probably just my issue, but I don't like black and white descriptions and will often be found posting in opposition whether it be Carr never looks off his primary or Carr's WR's are never open or Carr never gets good pass protection--all are false.

And I believe I was one of the ones discussing that with you and them when I had the time to do so. I usually don't post much, but I have been here since the 1st season. Personally, I like Carr, I have all the way back to his junior year a Fresno State. He was my choice for our first ever pick. I think he has the physical ability to be one of the best QB's in NFL history, but his mental game has not improved to a level that is needed to be a great QB, or at this point, even a decent one.

Yes, I did say never one time. So on the few plays that he did actually looked somewhere else, that does constitute more than never. My apologies. This is what I said:

If you have copies of any of the games, watch how Carr takes the snap and immediately focuses on his 1st option. Watch and you will see how he never takes his eyes off of him. As a QB, you just can't do that if you want to be successful. You can get away with it in high school, and you can sometimes get away with it in college.

Anyway, People blamed the coaches for some of Carr's problems and lack of developement. While I agree to a point, I have a hard time saying that the coaches were that bad. In all honesty, those coaches were in the NFL for a reason. If they hadn't proven themselves in their carreer up to the NFL, they never would have made it. So to say that they couldn't see Carr's problems when alot of fans could, is near impossible for me to believe. I guess that is the reason that I have a problem with giving Carr that big bonus, and why I questioned whether or not he is teachable at this point. For the Texans sake, I sure hope he is.

 

[Koolbrz]

Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

I would love to see you play QB on this team since you know exactly what it takes to be one. Hey with your knowledge we just might turn things around.

 

[Koolbrz]

Yes it did matter. It mattered quite a bit. When your QB, you know that guy that touches the ball every offensive play, can't hit an open WR, it tends to allow the defense to stack the line to stop the run. With Batch and Maddox in there, the Steelers were one dimensional. They had almost no passing game. The QB is THE single most important person on the team. So goes the QB, so goes the team.

Okay, check this out. Do you really believe The Bears have a great QB? No they don't. Look at what they did. Total team effort!!! Everyone from the offense, defense, special teams, coaches, water boy, hell even the cheerleaders made it happen. Like i told you before, in order to win you need a total team effort. Pitt. was just in a slump and could not pull out those wins. One more thing, don't be bad mouthing Batch and Maddox--they are now Super Bowl Champs!!

 

[vtech9]

Okay, check this out. Do you really believe The Bears have a great QB? No they don't. Look at what they did. Total team effort!!! Everyone from the offense, defense, special teams, coaches, water boy, hell even the cheerleaders made it happen. Like i told you before, in order to win you need a total team effort. Pitt. was just in a slump and could not pull out those wins. One more thing, don't be bad mouthing Batch and Maddox--they are now Super Bowl Champs!!

Chicago at least had a QB that could get the ball to an open WR..............I'm sorry, you aren't even worth my time debating this. Have a nice night.

 

[edo783]

Chicago at least had a QB that could get the ball to an open WR

Yup, QBs can do that when they have time and a WR that can actually get open soon enough. But, of course you won't admit that is an issue as you would much prefer to rag on Carr rather than see the whole picture.

 

[vtech9]

Yup, QBs can do that when they have time and a WR that can actually get open soon enough. But, of course you won't admit that is an issue as you would much prefer to rag on Carr rather than see the whole picture.

If you want to comment, at least follow the conversation. He was trying to compare Chicago to a 3 loss stretch that Pittsburgh had when Big Ben was out. He tried to state that it didn't matter that Ben was out, and I stated that it did matter because Maddox and Batch couldn't get the ball to WR's that were wide open, and Chicago at least had a QB that could hit an open WR.

 

[Koolbrz]

Chicago at least had a QB that could get the ball to an open WR..............I'm sorry, you aren't even worth my time debating this. Have a nice night.

Don't get mad dude...Just stating a fact. Chicago avg. what 5.27 yds per pass. To me that is not really stretching the field. Chicago's passing game was horrible at best this yr. By the way this avg. is for the 2 QB's that played for them. (K. Orton and Rex Grossman). Now lets take a look at Pitt.'s dynamic duo of Batch and Maddox. The few games that they did play they avg. 6.25 yds per pass. Based on this you tell me who had the better passing game. Of course when Big Ben was in there they avg. 8.9 yds. per pass, but thats besides the point. Check it out for yourself if you like

 

[thunderkyss]

Some points he(gafney) made about Carr were:
- the coaches had a noose around his neck, but when they let him play his game, Carr is unstoppable he feels.
-Carr is an awesome leader and the team rallies around him and really respects him
-Carr is a true gamer, studies loads of film, lives and breathes football, but he feels he was held back or resticted by the Texans' philosophies. He feels Carr has enough game to set the tone of a game ala P. Manning if he is given the freedom.

Okay, let's assume this is true. I'll give David the Benefit of the doubt for these next three questions.

1) Dom Capers had to have known his job was in jeopardy.. Why wouldn't he let David take over, if he knew that what David did worked..... if he knew we(he) would have more wins if he didn't put a knoose around David, than if he did, then why not let the kid play?? This is his job on the line, and you're telling me he couldn't see what all the Carr supporters see, even though he(Dom) spent more time watching and evaluating David than any of us??

it just don't make sense to me.

2) Why didn't David throw off the knoose?? If he is the leader of the team, and knows the most important thing for the team, is to win games, why didn't he stick his neck out there more often, and not only when he is allowed?? Sometimes, you've got to just take charge, you shouldn't be told when to do it, and when not to. I understand, that he should listen to(obey) the head coach as much as possible, but at 2-14, if the coach is the problem.... what's it going to take for David to show that he is a leader?? If he's got the team behind him, then it shouldn't have been too difficult.

3)When things didn't go well, who did David express his frustrations too?? Have you ever seen him having a heated discussion with Capers on the sideline??