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If Toby Gerhart Were Black, He'd Go First Round

eriadoc

eriadoc

Texan-American
According to one NFL scout, Toby Gerhart would be a first rounder if he were just black.

“He’ll be a great second-round pickup for somebody, but I guarantee you if he was the exact same guy – but he was black – he’d go in the first round for sure,” the scout said.
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The sentiment isn't isolated to this scout, of course.

“One team I interviewed with asked me about being a white running back,” Gerhart says. “They asked if it made me feel entitled, or like I felt I was a poster child for white running backs. I said, ‘No, I’m just out there playing ball. I don’t think about that.’ I didn’t really know what to say.”
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And then there's my favorite quote from Gerhart:

In college I went up against players like [USC’s] Brian Cushing(notes) and Clay Matthews(notes) – guys who ended up making the Pro Bowl [as NFL rookies] – and I ran through their tackles.
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yes, but no matter where he goes, he'll get better endorsements because he's white, so it all works out
 
Hell yeah if Gerhart was black and a much better player he could go in round 1.

Now if he was the same talent that he is now, and black, maybe undrafted FA.
 
Super Mario said:
Hell yeah if Gerhart was black and a much better player he could go in round 1.

Now if he was the same talent that he is now, and black, maybe undrafted FA.
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That's not what the scout is asserting. He's saying exact same player, but black.
 
eriadoc said:
That's not what the scout is asserting. He's saying exact same player, but black.
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Yeah it was my lame attempt at dry humor.

I dont think Gerhart is as good as everyone else. I think he is a 3rd round talent. So obviously I dont think him being black would make him a first round talent.

:texflag:
 
A story on race is a great traffic driver. Thankfully, the NFL is a meritocracy and Gerhart will have his day to prove himself. However, his agent is insane for letting this story publish and put the specter of race on this soon to be rookie as he enters a new locker room.

IMHO, the only parties that get value out of this story is the publisher and those that enjoy finger pointing.
 
eriadoc said:
That's not what the scout is asserting. He's saying exact same player, but black.
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Yeah, but other people think he just doesn't have 1st round talent.

“I don’t like him,” one NFC general manager told me at the combine. “If he’s your No. 1 back, he’s going to get killed by the end of the season, because he takes too many hits. And he has no special teams value. To me, what you see is what you get. He’s pretty good at everything, but he doesn’t do anything that’s special at our level.”

Said an AFC front-office executive: “This guy runs exactly the way the hole is blocked and gets exactly what you think he’s going to get – maybe a little more because he runs so hard, but nothing more explosive than that. He runs so upright, he’s going to get lit up.”’

“There’s no reason I shouldn’t really like him, but I just don’t,” added another AFC personnel executive. “He’s not really shifty, but he gets yards. He’s fast, but it’s a long speed, and not really a quick speed. You want me to compare him to a black guy? How about T.J. Duckett(notes)? There’s a big, fast guy who hasn’t been productive in the NFL.”
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I think he does compare much more to Duckett than Steven Jackson. Now Duckett did get drafted in the 1st but he has been considered a bust. Heck Duckett got drafted higher than Jackson did and never looked as good as Jackson.
 
infantrycak said:
Yeah, but other people think he just doesn't have 1st round talent.



I think he does compare much more to Duckett than Steven Jackson. Now Duckett did get drafted in the 1st but he has been considered a bust. Heck Duckett got drafted higher than Jackson did and never looked as good as Jackson.
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Well he did rack up yards and score TDs and I think that is special. We just might have enough ST players without Gerhart.
 
i know it sounds stupid but overall production in college just doesn't mean a whole lot. it's HOW they got the production. just getting the ball dozens and dozens of times a game and on the goalline doesn't mean anything in the NFL, where he'll have to take on more duties to stay on a roster. Gerhart really doesn't look like anything that special, and saying he'd be a first rounder if he were black is silly; if anything, being white has helped him out tremendously because he would've just been another black RB otherwise, and certainly wouldn't have been a Heisman finalist
 
badboy said:
Well he did rack up yards and score TDs and I think that is special. We just might have enough ST players without Gerhart.
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Not concerned about ST. When I see highlight reels like - Link - I see a heavy runner primarily getting his big plays in a power blocking assigned hole scheme. Stanford's OL was pulling guards and creating giant holes. I think he needs to go to a team that is primarily power blocking. As the one guy above said, he has sufficient long speed but his initial burst is nothing to write home about. I just don't think he is particularly well suited to our system. The guys quoted above are also right that he gets straight up/head on hit way too much as well. When it is Pollard coming in to do that instead of some kid ending his football playing career at the college level things are going to look different.
 
Plenty of black RBs in the league that weren't picked in the first round, have proven the critics wrong.

Gerhardt gets his shot.

what's the big deal?
 
infantrycak said:
Not concerned about ST. When I see highlight reels like - Link - I see a heavy runner primarily getting his big plays in a power blocking assigned hole scheme. Stanford's OL was pulling guards and creating giant holes. I think he needs to go to a team that is primarily power blocking. As the one guy above said, he has sufficient long speed but his initial burst is nothing to write home about. I just don't think he is particularly well suited to our system. The guys quoted above are also right that he gets straight up/head on hit way too much as well. When it is Pollard coming in to do that instead of some kid ending his football playing career at the college level things are going to look different.
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Marion Barber 2 anyone ?
 
It's not a ridiculous question to ask. I mean there haven't exactly been a lot of successful white RBs in the NFL and the ones that have been successful haven't exactly been considered quick or agile. Personally, I think all one needs to do is watch the tape of Gerhart in the USC games the last two seasons. He did alright for himself and is shiftier than guys give him credit for. He also is much quicker than many seem to believe. Sure, his 40 didn't blow anyone away but on the field, he is pretty freakin quick.

So yes, I do kind of think him being white has a little to do with everyone's perception of him.

And just to clarify, this doesn't bother me. I'm not saying this to start a debate or anything like that. It is simply in our nature to categorize, and whites are categorized as being slower than blacks and less talented RBs. There isn't anything wrong with that just as there isn't anything wrong with saying whites are better QBs. It doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, but most of the great QBs are white. On the other hand, most of the great WRs and RBs are black.
 
Unfortunately for Gerhart race is an issue because there hasn't been a noteworthy white running back since John Riggins. Whether that's the folly of the NFL coaches from then til now, or because that's just "how it is" it will always play a heavy role in evaluators minds. They think "Yeah this kid can do some good things, but can he take a pounding like MJD, or Ray Rice?" and they think he can't because of the color of his skin.

It means nothing, but in the end, that's just "how it is". I can guarantee that if Gerhart was a starter on a Big 10 team and put up huge numbers, you wouldn't hear nearly as much about his race (or maybe you'd hear more, but it'd be to his benefit) because he produced in a conference that values running defense and runners.

His agent is a dummy though for letting it get published. It sure as hell isn't going to help his draft stock any.
 
Really? I mean you think him being black alone would push him into the first?

The concerns would still be the same. Fumbles. Doesn't have great initial burst. Ok long speed, but will likely get caught from the back when he breaks a big one.

What do his hands look like out of the backfield? Blocking?

Being white didn't help his Heisman candidacy as much as putting up good numbers and scoring a heap of touchdowns. He was just a very productive player who did deserve a serious Heisman look.

I think he'll likely fall into the third round.
 
Honestly I see 3rd round talent. He has enough question marks and what-if's that drive down his stock and that's nothing to do with the color of his skin.

But I think if he was black you wouldn't have people saying he'd make a great fullback, so maybe his race is helping him out.
 
I thought Gerhart and Anthony Dixon compared pretty favorably and dixon is not rated as a first round RB.
 
kiwitexansfan said:
Hmmmm, its a Gerhart thread and yet rmartin65 isn't in it....
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I'm in now baby!

Obviously, this is a little ridiculous. I personally think he is a first round talent, but I understand the people who disagree. Racism may play a small part in a small percentage of people, but I dont think it is what is keeping Toby Gerhart out of the first round.

Still, I have made all the necessary sacrifices (1 chicken, and 2 bulls) for the Texans to draft Gerhart. I am going to have my fingers crossed.
 
42155
 
eriadoc said:
According to one NFL scout, Toby Gerhart would be a first rounder if he were just black.



The sentiment isn't isolated to this scout, of course.



And then there's my favorite quote from Gerhart:
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You're second quote in no way supports the sentiment expressed by the scout, and the third quote doesn't reference race, or even Gerhardt being a first round talent. Besides, even if it did, if you want to argue that Jimmy Clausen is a better QB prospect than Sam Bradford, that's fine, I'm just not going to view a quote of Jimmy Clausen saying he's better as very compelling evidence to support the position.
 
He reminds me of Jacob Hester, except he's a little faster. And he is fairly
fast, but not really quick, and that's the rub because he dosen't have that
burst thru the hole which an effective NFL backs needs no matter his size if he's gonna be on the field that much.
I'm really curious to see where he goes ? He might be a second-round pick, but he could also really fall IMO. But who Knows ? For all I know Kubiak & Smith may like him ?
 
b0ng said:
Unfortunately for Gerhart race is an issue because there hasn't been a noteworthy white running back since John Riggins. Whether that's the folly of the NFL coaches from then til now, or because that's just "how it is" it will always play a heavy role in evaluators minds. They think "Yeah this kid can do some good things, but can he take a pounding like MJD, or Ray Rice?" and they think he can't because of the color of his skin.

It means nothing, but in the end, that's just "how it is". I can guarantee that if Gerhart was a starter on a Big 10 team and put up huge numbers, you wouldn't hear nearly as much about his race (or maybe you'd hear more, but it'd be to his benefit) because he produced in a conference that values running defense and runners.

His agent is a dummy though for letting it get published. It sure as hell isn't going to help his draft stock any.
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Good post man. I agree with basically everything you have said.

I do believe people might give him a little more credit, even though he is coming from a small school, if he were lack simply because there haven't been many great white RBs especially in recent history.

rmartin65 said:
I'm in now baby!

Obviously, this is a little ridiculous. I personally think he is a first round talent, but I understand the people who disagree. Racism may play a small part in a small percentage of people, but I dont think it is what is keeping Toby Gerhart out of the first round.

Still, I have made all the necessary sacrifices (1 chicken, and 2 bulls) for the Texans to draft Gerhart. I am going to have my fingers crossed.
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I really just don't see it as racism. Maybe slight discrimination, but I don't think anyone is completely writing him off because he is white; they just simply don't think he will be as good as a black RB. I don't have a problem with this personally. When the odds are in your favor, I don't think it is wrong to make some assumptions like this.

Odds are if you put a white guy and a black guy together that are identical heights and weights the black guy will likely jump higher. If you are trying to have an athletic team, odds are you will go with a primarily black team. If you are trying to make a team that plays a slower more European style, you will go with mostly white players. I see the QB argument the same way. Most of your great QBs are white, and most of your great RBs are black. It doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule, but that is simply the physical evidence that is out there.
 
b0ng said:
Unfortunately for Gerhart race is an issue because there hasn't been a noteworthy white running back since John Riggins. Whether that's the folly of the NFL coaches from then til now, or because that's just "how it is" it will always play a heavy role in evaluators minds. They think "Yeah this kid can do some good things, but can he take a pounding like MJD, or Ray Rice?" and they think he can't because of the color of his skin.
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I was liking where you were going when you compared him to 2nd round picks MJD & Ray Rice. But I can't agree with you that anyone thinks he can't take a hit because he is white.

NFL teams only care about winning. I think it is ridiculous to believe a player won't be picked because he is white.

If he's got the talent to play RB in this league, he'll play. If someone thinks he can help their team win, they'll pick him.
b0ng said:
It means nothing, but in the end, that's just "how it is". I can guarantee that if Gerhart was a starter on a Big 10 team and put up huge numbers, you wouldn't hear nearly as much about his race (or maybe you'd hear more, but it'd be to his benefit) because he produced in a conference that values running defense and runners.
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The bolded, is all that matters. He didn't.... he doesn't have amazing speed... bottom line, it doesn't matter what he looks like, it's about what he did.
 
Goldensilence said:
Really? I mean you think him being black alone would push him into the first?

The concerns would still be the same. Fumbles. Doesn't have great initial burst. Ok long speed, but will likely get caught from the back when he breaks a big one.

What do his hands look like out of the backfield? Blocking?

Being white didn't help his Heisman candidacy as much as putting up good numbers and scoring a heap of touchdowns. He was just a very productive player who did deserve a serious Heisman look.

I think he'll likely fall into the third round.
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He also looks stiff and isn't quick laterally. He likely will be an effective runner in a power scheme but there are about 12 RBs, after doing research on them the past few days, that I would rather have from this rookie class.
 
Biggest problem I have with this line of thought is this:

If the assumption is that black RBs are better because they are more athletic, would that lead one to also assume that white QBs are better because they are better decision makers or smarter?

That's why I don't like trying to go down this path of reasoning.


IMO it has nothing to do with being more or less athletic. It's all about bone structure. White people in the 5'7-5'11 range are more likely to have a longer torso and stocky hip structure, whereas people of african descent I think are more likely to have long legs, compact waist structure, and a lower center of gravity. I think differences in body structure, arm and leg length, shoulder width, and hip structure can explain all or most of the positional differences in the NFL. It can explain why white people are more likely to have the body structure to play G or C vs. black people whose structure fits DT and T better.

In other words, I don't think there are significant differences at all between blacks, whites, latinos, etc, as far as athleticism, instinct, intelligence, etc. I think body structure (which is influenced by racial makeup) determines what kind of characteristics your body is capable of, and your determination and work ethic determines what you actually achieve with that.


Now as far as Gerhart, I don't think he has the ideal body to play RB. That's just a visual observation. I think his torso is a bit long and he lacks bulk and width in his shoulders and back, having a bigger chest and arms instead.
 
infantrycak said:
Yeah, but other people think he just doesn't have 1st round talent.
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And that's fair enough. It's the jerkholes who pulled out the race card that annoy me. In this case, those jerkholes appear to be employed by the NFL.

kastofsna said:
i know it sounds stupid but overall production in college just doesn't mean a whole lot. it's HOW they got the production.
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I agree, but not just at the college level. I was more impressed with Domanick Davis 1180-whatever yards it was rushing than I was Slaton's 1282 rushing in his rookie year. But I was more impressed with Slaton's receiving yards than DD's. Just an example. But I'd rather see a guy like Gerhart paired with someone like Slaton than being a lone feature back. Then again, I say the same thing about Slaton. We could play to Slaton's strengths if we had a guy like Gerhart playing to his strengths, IMO.

rmartin65 said:
I'm in now baby!

Obviously, this is a little ridiculous. I personally think he is a first round talent, but I understand the people who disagree. Racism may play a small part in a small percentage of people, but I dont think it is what is keeping Toby Gerhart out of the first round.
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I don't know that it's what's keeping him out of the first round, but it's obvious there's some of it going on on the part of NFL teams.

Ckw5814 said:
I really just don't see it as racism.
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It's only racism if you consider Rush Limbaugh's comments about Donovan McNabb racist, and many black people did at the time, FWIW.

Personally, I don't think there are too many real 1st round RBs that have come out lately. AP is the last RB I can think of that I thought really should have gone in the 1st round. No freakin' way I would have taken Reggie Bush in anything sooner than the 3rd round, but that seems to be the type of back that teams fall in love with. I'd rather spend the early pick on a guy that I know is going to get the tough yards when it matters, when the defense knows you're coming at them. You can find scat backs with speed in later rounds. You can find darn near any type of back in the later rounds, and with the durability concerns of the position, it's just better not to spend a 1st rounder on one, for the most part.

I'd love the team to snag Gerhart in the 2nd, but I wouldn't be disappointed in Tate. I think Dwyer would disappoint with the Texans.
 
eriadoc said:
It's only racism if you consider Rush Limbaugh's comments about Donovan McNabb racist, and many black people did at the time, FWIW.
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That incident has always struck me oddly and I watched it live. On the one hand I could see saying it was an asshat being an asshat forcing his political commentary into an inappropriate situation. I wonder though if you go that deep off the end of reality to make your point if he wasn't harboring some real more inner agenda. Don't know and won't pretend to. Just at the time the comment was made it was absurd on any front. McNabb was rightfully regarded as an elite QB at that point.
 
eriadoc said:
It's only racism if you consider Rush Limbaugh's comments about Donovan McNabb racist, and many black people did at the time, FWIW.
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Neither Michael Irvin or Tom Jackson batted an eye when Limbaugh said it. It wasn't until the day after, when the MSM was giving Rush a hard time.

"America wants a black QB to be successfull." paraphrasing, but what is racist about that? It points to America's racism, not Limbaugh's.

Either way, Jon Stewart could have said the same thing, and no one would have batted an eye.
 
OK, forget the Rush Limbaugh reference. If some NFL scout said Joe Blackqb was going to slide to the 2nd round for no reason other than he was black (regardless of its veracity), you know it'd be a huge deal. So yeah, the NFL teams in question (which haven't been leaked) are acting racist. No big surprise, but this kind of stuff usually comes from someone other than NFL employees.
 
thunderkyss said:
Neither Michael Irvin or Tom Jackson batted an eye when Limbaugh said it. It wasn't until the day after, when the MSM was giving Rush a hard time.

"America wants a black QB to be successfull." paraphrasing, but what is racist about that? It points to America's racism, not Limbaugh's.

Either way, Jon Stewart could have said the same thing, and no one would have batted an eye.
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Total BS. He went far beyond that and Jackson and everyone on the set reacted - Link

Now I tend to the thought he was pushing his political statement rather than being truly racist but it certainly is a fair question.l

eriadoc said:
If some NFL scout said Joe Blackqb was going to slide to the 2nd round for no reason other than he was black (regardless of its veracity), you know it'd be a huge deal. So yeah, the NFL teams in question (which haven't been leaked) are acting racist. No big surprise, but this kind of stuff usually comes from someone other than NFL employees.
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1st statement I agree with. 2nd totally disagree. Just because 1 scout says he would take him in the 1st doesn't mean any team has that evaluation on him or would take him in the 1st but for his being white. That's one dude's opinion and the same article had others who clearly didn't agree on the talent level. I don't think he is a 1st round guy. I wouldn't take Dwyer until the 5th or 6th. Does that make me racist against both whites and blacks because I don't evaluate either of those slow footed guys as high as some others?
 
I had a coach tell me that if a WR is ever a white dude, you better make sure to cover that dude because if he's a white dude playing WR it must mean he's damn good.

I recall Mike Alstott being a FB but breaking some huge runs back in the day.
 
El Tejano said:
I had a coach tell me that if a WR is ever a white dude, you better make sure to cover that dude because if he's a white dude playing WR it must mean he's damn good.

I recall Mike Alstott being a FB but breaking some huge runs back in the day.
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Love it! Trifecta, dude!
 
Gerhart's floor is Barber.

Gerhart's ceiling is Riggins.

He's worth a 2nd rd pick. IMHO
 
thunderkyss said:
Neither Michael Irvin or Tom Jackson batted an eye when Limbaugh said it. It wasn't until the day after, when the MSM was giving Rush a hard time.

"America wants a black QB to be successfull." paraphrasing, but what is racist about that? It points to America's racism, not Limbaugh's.

Either way, Jon Stewart could have said the same thing, and no one would have batted an eye.
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Ugh. Rush's self imposed martyr complex certainly has found a way to trickle down. The guy throws himself out there with a self painted bullseye then complains when people start hurling at it. I guess it's entertaining.

I don't think the comment was overtly racist as much as with how wrong it was you couldn't help but wonder what the motivations behind the comment were.
 
A very average NFL prospect in my opinion. I wish the guy all the success in the world, but he relied completely on power at the collegiate level. That doesn't fly in the NFL. He has below average speed and agility. He runs upright, which is a concern for injury at the NFL level. Plus it doesn't help that he got about a million carries per game at Stanford....could wear really early.

In my opinion he is a late round prospect.
 
SF49erFaithful said:
A very average NFL prospect in my opinion. I wish the guy all the success in the world, but he relied completely on power at the collegiate level. That doesn't fly in the NFL. He has below average speed and agility. He runs upright, which is a concern for injury at the NFL level. Plus it doesn't help that he got about a million carries per game at Stanford....could wear really early.

In my opinion he is a late round prospect.
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Agreed... Rather would have Ben Tate or Dwyer if we don't draft Mathews.
 
Super Mario said:
Yeah it was my lame attempt at dry humor.

I dont think Gerhart is as good as everyone else. I think he is a 3rd round talent. So obviously I dont think him being black would make him a first round talent.

:texflag:
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Or...if he was a black athlete and he had the same bona fide would we be clamoring for him in the second round ? I believe he is a John Riggens- Larry Cznoka style running back. Which means, you have to go two tight ends and run counter treys with him. There are not many teams out their who do this any more. Most run a form of a WCO or a vertical passing game. I think he'll go where he should about the same place as Matt forte went. He's kinda of like Taylor Mays in the fact that both are great athletes who's skill set is not coveted by the league any more.
 
There already is a black Gerhart in the draft, LeGarrette Blount

I like Toby, but he's the kind of back that was good in the NFL ten years ago, not now.
 
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