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If it came down to Jenkins or Albert?
- Thread starter Spled
- Start date
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Good question- I'm still just wondering about Jenkins though. All I hear is he isn't committed to tackling and is poor at it. I don't know if we'd like to spend the 18th on that. And Alberts, I really like. It will be interesting what Gibbs has to say about our current OL situation and how "deep" this class is.
If it came to that, I'd be fine with whichever they take. I really have a lot of trust in this current staff. If the pick is Jenkins, It'd be telling me that Kubiak and Smith may like some OL guys in the 3rd/4th that would fit in perfect. It'd also be saying that CB is still a high priority and that Jenkins could become our #1- we'd have a much improved secondary, esp. if Dunta comes back fully healthy to take over the #2 spot. Reeves and Bennett would be solid to have behind Jenkins/Robinson.
If the pick is Albert, It'd tell me that Kubiak and Gibbs think they have a future HOF or pro bowl Offensive lineman. We desperately need to protect Schaub better and get better at opening holes for our RB's. Gibbs is one part of the solution- them taking albert would tell me we're going to have a top 5 OL in a couple years!
If it came to that, I'd be fine with whichever they take. I really have a lot of trust in this current staff. If the pick is Jenkins, It'd be telling me that Kubiak and Smith may like some OL guys in the 3rd/4th that would fit in perfect. It'd also be saying that CB is still a high priority and that Jenkins could become our #1- we'd have a much improved secondary, esp. if Dunta comes back fully healthy to take over the #2 spot. Reeves and Bennett would be solid to have behind Jenkins/Robinson.
If the pick is Albert, It'd tell me that Kubiak and Gibbs think they have a future HOF or pro bowl Offensive lineman. We desperately need to protect Schaub better and get better at opening holes for our RB's. Gibbs is one part of the solution- them taking albert would tell me we're going to have a top 5 OL in a couple years!
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Albert because he's got all pro potential, I dont think Jenkins has that same ability.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
i would be very disappointed in either of these choices.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I second that. Per thread if it had to be, I'd go Jenkins as I see Albert as a maybe LT and I think we are ok at guard.
Trap_Star
SiteContributor
if we draft him, its so we can move him over to T.
edo783
Hall of Fame
Kind of like the idea of Albert (I think I would prefer Williams). Seems to have a fairly high floor---wind up with a really good guard if he doen't work out at LT---or get a franchise LT on the upper limit. Odds of him not working out at one of those is pretty small IMO. Granted, you would not normaly go out to pick a real good guard at 18, but that is probably the stop loss limit on him.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Jenkins easily. Albert is a guard, and I think if you're going to draft a guy to move over a position, you should really do it with your later round picks, not with your first.
Plus, Jenkins is probably the best corner available in the draft (IMHO) and draftniks can refute me all they want, but he was the consensus #1 CB pick way before McKelvin and DRC became the hot commodities.
Plus, Jenkins is probably the best corner available in the draft (IMHO) and draftniks can refute me all they want, but he was the consensus #1 CB pick way before McKelvin and DRC became the hot commodities.
I'm not sure they would go with either one of these, but if I had to choose, I'd say Albert. Jenkins had a good Combine and will be one of the top CB's in the Draft, but according to WalterFootball.com, he was arrested last spring for fighting outside a bar. No charges were filed, but I don't think the Texans would take a chance on him given their past record with these kinds of players. JMHO!
Hooston Texan
Rookie
Some background on Albert that may illuminate the possibility of him playing tackle despite being a guard at college.
He was a very obscure recruit (two-stars on Rivals) when he verballed to UVA out of high school. He was better known as a basketball player at the time.
Albert prepped for a year (Hargrave), playing LT, where he astonished everyone--his coach there said he was among the best OL he's ever seen. After his prep year, he was a four-star prospect (for all that's worth), but he never waivered from his commitment to UVA despite the increased attention.
UVA recruited him to play tackle, but, in his freshman year, the Hoos had D'Brickashaw Ferguson at LT and another senior, long-time starter at RT. For all his accolades in prep school, Albert was not the most hyped LT recruit in his class--Eugene Monroe from New Jersey was a top 15 overall recruit that year. The coaches really wanted them to see the field from the start, but with the tackle spots locked down that first year, both were tried at guard. Albert won that battle with ease (Monroe is a pure tackle), so he started from the beginning of that year.
A few games into the season, Ferguson got hurt. Rather than weaken two positions by moving Albert, the coaches plugged in Monroe at LT next to Albert. From that point on, Monroe was set at LT while Albert was LG. Maybe Albert was the superior LT, but the line performed better with him playing next to Monroe.
Monroe got hurt and missed two games last year--wins over Middle Tennessee and Pitt--so Albert was moved to LT. Albert seemed to acquit himself well (though I didn't watch either game--screw ESPN-U), though he was not facing future NFL pass rushers in those games.
BOTTOM LINE: Albert was a tackle until UVA switched him to guard to get him on the field. There is certainly a question as to how quickly he will be able to convert back to being a LT at this level after having not played the position much for the last three years.
He was a very obscure recruit (two-stars on Rivals) when he verballed to UVA out of high school. He was better known as a basketball player at the time.
Albert prepped for a year (Hargrave), playing LT, where he astonished everyone--his coach there said he was among the best OL he's ever seen. After his prep year, he was a four-star prospect (for all that's worth), but he never waivered from his commitment to UVA despite the increased attention.
UVA recruited him to play tackle, but, in his freshman year, the Hoos had D'Brickashaw Ferguson at LT and another senior, long-time starter at RT. For all his accolades in prep school, Albert was not the most hyped LT recruit in his class--Eugene Monroe from New Jersey was a top 15 overall recruit that year. The coaches really wanted them to see the field from the start, but with the tackle spots locked down that first year, both were tried at guard. Albert won that battle with ease (Monroe is a pure tackle), so he started from the beginning of that year.
A few games into the season, Ferguson got hurt. Rather than weaken two positions by moving Albert, the coaches plugged in Monroe at LT next to Albert. From that point on, Monroe was set at LT while Albert was LG. Maybe Albert was the superior LT, but the line performed better with him playing next to Monroe.
Monroe got hurt and missed two games last year--wins over Middle Tennessee and Pitt--so Albert was moved to LT. Albert seemed to acquit himself well (though I didn't watch either game--screw ESPN-U), though he was not facing future NFL pass rushers in those games.
BOTTOM LINE: Albert was a tackle until UVA switched him to guard to get him on the field. There is certainly a question as to how quickly he will be able to convert back to being a LT at this level after having not played the position much for the last three years.
badboy
Hall of Fame
That's my point. He is a good guard but I am not sold on him at LT. Just a feeling. Anyway, no at #18.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
verifying your feeling-
I'm not impressed with his body type for the LT position. I also don't like projecting him to a different position than he specialized in College. seems like a reach even though he is an excellent OL prospect.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
verifying your feeling-
I'm not impressed with his body type for the LT position. I also don't like projecting him to a different position than he specialized in College. seems like a reach even though he is an excellent OL prospect.
Not arguing with you or any of the Gibbs' walks the water crowd with the late round picks....what I will say is alberts will give them two guys....no matter what position he plays, who can get into space and knock someone in the dirt. If he makes the flip to OLT...fine....if he can't we just got a bragin high end gaurd who rolls folks...conistantly.... on the second level...we can always use that.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I would go with Jenkins. I still beleive he is the best corner in the draft. McKelvin and DRC are two guys I really like, and guys I would like to have at 18, but I think Jenkins is the best corner in this draft.
It would a much, much improved secondary from a year ago.
This is pretty much how I feel about Alberts. He is a great guard prospect, but I have questions about taking him as high as 18 as an LT prospect. We have young guards that Gibbs should be able to put a fire under. While it would be nice to have a stud guard, we would be drafting him as an LT.
It would a much, much improved secondary from a year ago.
verifying your feeling-
I'm not impressed with his body type for the LT position. I also don't like projecting him to a different position than he specialized in College. seems like a reach even though he is an excellent OL prospect.
This is pretty much how I feel about Alberts. He is a great guard prospect, but I have questions about taking him as high as 18 as an LT prospect. We have young guards that Gibbs should be able to put a fire under. While it would be nice to have a stud guard, we would be drafting him as an LT.
badboy
Hall of Fame
But we don't need a guard at 18 that might become a LT. We need a LT. If we want to do the "hope he can dance the LT shuffle" in a later round well, maybe. Just not at #18. Not saying he can't. Just have that old uneasy feeling.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
he has all the measureables, long arms, frame 6-6 309 & according to Lance the best feet of any tackle in the draft. if thats not enough to change your mind watch some game tape displayof abiltiy to move in space or listen an interview, impressive.
I'll take my chances, not that high of risk with huge reward/upside. reminds me of Amobi Okoye, just really, really bright just scratching the surface of his abilities. he did not play LT @ Virginia because the positions been filled, first there was D'Brickashaw Ferguson, then Eugene Monore the #1 high school LT prospect in the nation (http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=22129) here is Brandon Alberts high school bio, looks like he's lost some weight http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=31397
Kiper's First-Round Projection
No. Team Player School
1 Miami Dolphins Jake Long, OT Michigan
2 St. Louis Rams Chris Long, DE Virginia
3 Atlanta Falcons Glenn Dorsey, DT LSU
4 Oakland Raiders *Darren McFadden, RB Arkansas
5 Kansas City Chiefs *Branden Albert, OT/G Virginia
6 New York Jets *Vernon Gholston, DE Ohio St.
7 New England Patriots (from SF) *Aqib Talib, CB Kansas
8 Baltimore Ravens Matt Ryan, QB Boston College
9 Cincinnati Bengals Sedrick Ellis, DT USC
10 New Orleans Saints Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, CB Tennessee St.
11 Buffalo Bills *Derrick Harvey, DE Florida
12 Denver Broncos Keith Rivers, LB USC
13 Carolina Panthers *Ryan Clady, OT Boise St.
14 Chicago Bears Chris Williams, OT Vanderbilt
15 Detroit Lions *Rashard Mendenhall, RB Illinois
16 Arizona Cardinals Leodis McKelvin, CB Troy
17 Minnesota Vikings *Phillip Merling, DE Clemson
18 Houston Texans *Jonathan Stewart, RB Oregon
19 Philadelphia Eagles Jeff Otah, OT Pittsburgh
20 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Mike Jenkins, CB South Florida
21 Washington Redskins *Devin Thomas, WR Michigan St.
22 Dallas Cowboys (from CLE) *Felix Jones, RB Arkansas
23 Pittsburgh Steelers Kentwan Balmer, DT North Carolina
24 Tennessee Titans *DeSean Jackson, WR California
25 Seattle Seahawks Dustin Keller, TE Purdue
26 Jacksonville Jaguars Lawrence Jackson, DE USC
27 San Diego Chargers Gosder Cherilus, OT Boston College
28 Dallas Cowboys *Justin King, CB Penn St.
29 San Francisco 49ers (from IND) *Jerod Mayo, LB Tennessee
30 Green Bay Packers *Brandon Flowers, CB Virginia Tech
31 New England Patriots Forfeited pick
32 New York Giants Tyrell Johnson, S Arkansas St.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&page=kipermock080401
*********
While I think Albert is an excellent prospect and maybe worthy of our #18,
goofey Mel Kiper and his mock has gone around the bend on Albert. Any doubts, just check where and how high he has Albert going.
No. Team Player School
1 Miami Dolphins Jake Long, OT Michigan
2 St. Louis Rams Chris Long, DE Virginia
3 Atlanta Falcons Glenn Dorsey, DT LSU
4 Oakland Raiders *Darren McFadden, RB Arkansas
5 Kansas City Chiefs *Branden Albert, OT/G Virginia
6 New York Jets *Vernon Gholston, DE Ohio St.
7 New England Patriots (from SF) *Aqib Talib, CB Kansas
8 Baltimore Ravens Matt Ryan, QB Boston College
9 Cincinnati Bengals Sedrick Ellis, DT USC
10 New Orleans Saints Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, CB Tennessee St.
11 Buffalo Bills *Derrick Harvey, DE Florida
12 Denver Broncos Keith Rivers, LB USC
13 Carolina Panthers *Ryan Clady, OT Boise St.
14 Chicago Bears Chris Williams, OT Vanderbilt
15 Detroit Lions *Rashard Mendenhall, RB Illinois
16 Arizona Cardinals Leodis McKelvin, CB Troy
17 Minnesota Vikings *Phillip Merling, DE Clemson
18 Houston Texans *Jonathan Stewart, RB Oregon
19 Philadelphia Eagles Jeff Otah, OT Pittsburgh
20 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Mike Jenkins, CB South Florida
21 Washington Redskins *Devin Thomas, WR Michigan St.
22 Dallas Cowboys (from CLE) *Felix Jones, RB Arkansas
23 Pittsburgh Steelers Kentwan Balmer, DT North Carolina
24 Tennessee Titans *DeSean Jackson, WR California
25 Seattle Seahawks Dustin Keller, TE Purdue
26 Jacksonville Jaguars Lawrence Jackson, DE USC
27 San Diego Chargers Gosder Cherilus, OT Boston College
28 Dallas Cowboys *Justin King, CB Penn St.
29 San Francisco 49ers (from IND) *Jerod Mayo, LB Tennessee
30 Green Bay Packers *Brandon Flowers, CB Virginia Tech
31 New England Patriots Forfeited pick
32 New York Giants Tyrell Johnson, S Arkansas St.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&page=kipermock080401
*********
While I think Albert is an excellent prospect and maybe worthy of our #18,
goofey Mel Kiper and his mock has gone around the bend on Albert. Any doubts, just check where and how high he has Albert going.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I agree he has the measureables and I hope you and LZ are right. Even if we don't take him he might stir up the teams above us.
ATXtexanfan
Hall of Fame
don't understand why everyone is so high on albert when he played guard, our 1st rd pick needs to be 16-game starter, not a project at another position, why not move up to get a true left tackle it's that important to us? i'm all for giving up our 3rd rd pick if gets us our LT of the future
This team has too many holes to be trading away more draft picks. We are building throught the draft remember?
ATXtexanfan
Hall of Fame
yes, but if giving up an extra pick meant locking down the LT position after all these years you'd have to do that, right?
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Kiper has lost it. don't blame him though this stuff can drive you crazy :elle: imagine doing it for a living all these years
I'm glad you posted this because it shows both sides...
A) On one hand, you have a project LT who's show promise on the collegiate level, but at the very worst is our franchise RG in Albert.
B) In the other hand, you give up a 3rd to a struggling team like the Panthers, Bears or even Broncos for the right to switch 1st round picks and draft a franchise LT in Williams (or even a outside chance at Clady).
I'm more of a glass half-full type guy, so I'm going to say that it's a win-win situation. However, if I have a team willing to trade and Williams is still on the board around picks 12-14, I'm pulling the trigger.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
http://www.gbnreport.com/3-roundprojection.html
1st Round #
Team Player POS School
1 Miami Chris Long DE Virginia
2 St. Louis Glenn Dorsey DT LSU
3 Atlanta Jake Long OT Michigan
4 Oakland Darren McFadden RB Arkansas
P5 New England (from KC) Vernon Gholston DE Ohio State
P6 Cincinnati (from NY Jets) Sedrick Ellis DT Southern California
P7 Kansas City (from SF thru NE) Matt Ryan QB Boston College
8 Baltimore Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie CB Tennessee State
P9 NY Jets (from Cincinnati) Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon
10 New Orleans Leodis McKelvin CB Troy
11 Buffalo Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
12 Denver Ryan Clady OT Boise State
13 Carolina Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
14 Chicago Branden Albert OT Virginia
15 Detroit Jerod Mayo LB Tennessee
16 Arizona Derrick Harvey DE Florida
17 Minnesota Brian Brohm QB Louisville
18 Houston Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
lot of stuff will have to happen for them to have shot at Williams
19 Philadelphia Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
20 Tampa Bay DeSean Jackson WR California
21 Washington Mike Jenkins CB South Florida
22 Dallas (from Cleveland) Felix Jones RB,Arkansas
23 Pittsburgh Jeff Otah OT Pittsburgh
24 Tennessee Keith Rivers LB Southern California
25 Seattle Kentwan Balmer DT North Carolina
26 Jacksonville Phillip Merling DE Clemson
27 San Diego Aqib Talib DB Kansas
28 Dallas Antoine Cason CB Arizona
29 San Francisco (from Indianapolis) Chilio Rachal OG USC
30 Green Bay Justin King CB Penn State
x
New England (pick forfeited)
31 New York Giants Kenny Phillips FS
Miami
Projected trades:
Kansas City trades the 5th pick to New England for the 7th and 69th (3rd) picks.
New York Jets trade the 6th pick to Cincinnati for the 10th, 77th (3rd) and 177th (6th) picks
1st Round #
Team Player POS School
1 Miami Chris Long DE Virginia
2 St. Louis Glenn Dorsey DT LSU
3 Atlanta Jake Long OT Michigan
4 Oakland Darren McFadden RB Arkansas
P5 New England (from KC) Vernon Gholston DE Ohio State
P6 Cincinnati (from NY Jets) Sedrick Ellis DT Southern California
P7 Kansas City (from SF thru NE) Matt Ryan QB Boston College
8 Baltimore Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie CB Tennessee State
P9 NY Jets (from Cincinnati) Jonathan Stewart RB Oregon
10 New Orleans Leodis McKelvin CB Troy
11 Buffalo Devin Thomas WR Michigan State
12 Denver Ryan Clady OT Boise State
13 Carolina Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
14 Chicago Branden Albert OT Virginia
15 Detroit Jerod Mayo LB Tennessee
16 Arizona Derrick Harvey DE Florida
17 Minnesota Brian Brohm QB Louisville
18 Houston Chris Williams OT Vanderbilt
lot of stuff will have to happen for them to have shot at Williams
19 Philadelphia Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma
20 Tampa Bay DeSean Jackson WR California
21 Washington Mike Jenkins CB South Florida
22 Dallas (from Cleveland) Felix Jones RB,Arkansas
23 Pittsburgh Jeff Otah OT Pittsburgh
24 Tennessee Keith Rivers LB Southern California
25 Seattle Kentwan Balmer DT North Carolina
26 Jacksonville Phillip Merling DE Clemson
27 San Diego Aqib Talib DB Kansas
28 Dallas Antoine Cason CB Arizona
29 San Francisco (from Indianapolis) Chilio Rachal OG USC
30 Green Bay Justin King CB Penn State
x
New England (pick forfeited)
31 New York Giants Kenny Phillips FS
Miami
Projected trades:
Kansas City trades the 5th pick to New England for the 7th and 69th (3rd) picks.
New York Jets trade the 6th pick to Cincinnati for the 10th, 77th (3rd) and 177th (6th) picks
Goldensilence
hipster elite
Agreed. I know we have young guards but none of them have the upside Alberts does at guard. LT? I don't know. Maybe. At worst though I agree we get a great guard.
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Extras/2008/mock2302.htm
Mike Mayock is correct when he states that when you have chance at the franchise QB you draft the guy. But first you gotta have a decent line. Not all pro...but decent.
Setting a twenty two year old against the wolves and watching him get pummeled for sixteen games no longer works. The atheletes of todays NFL are far to strong, quick, brutal.
The value draft chart is now skewed because it does not take into account the locked in signing bonus for a top five pick. For every Mario Williams who makes it, there is a Reggie Bush and Vince Young who do not. The odds are with the other twenty seven other clubs behind them.
18. Houston Texans
OT Chris Williams, Vanderbilt
as I posted earlier, alot of stuff has to happen for them to have a shot at Williams. Under this scenario.........alberts is still on the board also.
It is now going to cost J.J. what to move up and go get the second best player in the draft ?
Mike Mayock is correct when he states that when you have chance at the franchise QB you draft the guy. But first you gotta have a decent line. Not all pro...but decent.
Setting a twenty two year old against the wolves and watching him get pummeled for sixteen games no longer works. The atheletes of todays NFL are far to strong, quick, brutal.
The value draft chart is now skewed because it does not take into account the locked in signing bonus for a top five pick. For every Mario Williams who makes it, there is a Reggie Bush and Vince Young who do not. The odds are with the other twenty seven other clubs behind them.
18. Houston Texans
OT Chris Williams, Vanderbilt
What you are buying with alberts is the explosion...same thing as Tony Ugho had last draft.
as I posted earlier, alot of stuff has to happen for them to have a shot at Williams. Under this scenario.........alberts is still on the board also.
It is now going to cost J.J. what to move up and go get the second best player in the draft ?
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Nolan Nawrockiis the real deal in regards to the draft, he's not some staff writer, blogger or talking head from some network. He is a lockdown Professional Scout whos better connected than his more famous counterparts.
I think he does something well that alot of people who do mock drafts don't do well & thats evaluate game tape. then with his inside information he plugs players in according to what he hears or knows about those teams draft boards.
So it does suprise me that if "a bigger run could be made on offensive linemen" why he doesn't have Clady higher? its the swing tackle pick that drops Chris Williams from Denver to the Texans.
Stewart to the Jets is the highest I've seen which tells me one he's really high on Jonathan or two the Jets are really high on Jonathan or just high period. ahead of Chris Long? not sure about that as much as I agree that Stewart may end up being the best RB in this draft.
Very eye opening mock draft, Miami holds the key since they own the #1 overall pick do they enter negoiations with the top prospects & sign prior to draft day? Can't buy Jake as top LT (- kick step, - rigid hips/torso, - 33" arms) Dorsey has extensive injury history, Gholston is more of a workout warrior, Ryan does not have a gun for an arm & lacks athletic ability, McFadden has off field issues.
With Parcells connections to Jerry Jones I would think he offers the #1 pick @ discounted value (#22 & #28) which throws all these projections down the drain
I think he does something well that alot of people who do mock drafts don't do well & thats evaluate game tape. then with his inside information he plugs players in according to what he hears or knows about those teams draft boards.
So it does suprise me that if "a bigger run could be made on offensive linemen" why he doesn't have Clady higher? its the swing tackle pick that drops Chris Williams from Denver to the Texans.
Stewart to the Jets is the highest I've seen which tells me one he's really high on Jonathan or two the Jets are really high on Jonathan or just high period. ahead of Chris Long? not sure about that as much as I agree that Stewart may end up being the best RB in this draft.
Very eye opening mock draft, Miami holds the key since they own the #1 overall pick do they enter negoiations with the top prospects & sign prior to draft day? Can't buy Jake as top LT (- kick step, - rigid hips/torso, - 33" arms) Dorsey has extensive injury history, Gholston is more of a workout warrior, Ryan does not have a gun for an arm & lacks athletic ability, McFadden has off field issues.
With Parcells connections to Jerry Jones I would think he offers the #1 pick @ discounted value (#22 & #28) which throws all these projections down the drain
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
So JJ gose for DMc ?.....I agree. He's like a spider in his web...all he has to do is wait untill someone blinks at the signing bonus. much as he's saying he's not going to do it...and I do believe he will not give up 3k point value...the more I believe that is exactly what he's going to do. Wait as DMc falls and go up and get him when the price is correct.
as much as we Bang CC in here....everyone is useing the tactic of opening negtotition with the top three...no reason not to. Rest of the league is forcing you to pick one...pick the best player at the best bargin price you can negotiate.
Just thought of something else.....big clue to what Miami will do...the next couple of weeks when Mike Mayock gets off of Matt Ryan....Mike is not in the loop, neither is Ryan.
as much as we Bang CC in here....everyone is useing the tactic of opening negtotition with the top three...no reason not to. Rest of the league is forcing you to pick one...pick the best player at the best bargin price you can negotiate.
Just thought of something else.....big clue to what Miami will do...the next couple of weeks when Mike Mayock gets off of Matt Ryan....Mike is not in the loop, neither is Ryan.